Steven,

I quoted you impartial educational body and a research/ humanitarian organisation. You referring me to a point of view expressed in a book doesn’t change history:

- Throughout history as per above the Jewish people lived and flourished in muslim countries. Most Muslim leaders since the 10th century had Jewish ministers and advisers (since Saladin all the way to the last century ottoman empire.

- The fact that European Jews escaped the persecution of other Christian nations and migrated to Spain went it was under Islamic ruling.

- The fact that Jewish people escaped the persecution of the Spanish inquisition and left Spain with the arab muslims to live in arab muslim countries in North Africa.

- I grew up in Egypt (a muslim country) and studied most modern history. Egyptian Jews contributed to economy, arts, entertainment and were driving the maturity of public debates since the 19th century. Among aspects of religious harmony between Jewish and Islamic faith, many of the rituals by the Sufi Muslims were shared by Orthodox Jews in Egypt and Morocco.

You seem to be enjoying your own illusion (your word) but it got nothing to do with history.

"Bottom line is this F_H. The Muslim treatment of Jews was not worse than the Christian treatment of Jews throughout much of history"

Flawed statement and contradicts even Jewish history:
Millions of Jewish people were murdered before and after the inqusition and ending up with the Nazis. Hitler claimed to be a devout follower of christianity (see April 1922 speech on the german archives website). None of the above atrocities have anything to do with Islam or Muslims.

Peace,

FH... you are carrying on somewhat there.

"None of the above atrocities have anything to do with Islam or Muslims."

How can you even say that... KNOWING of the Banu Qurayza genocide and the various purges of Jewish Tribes from Mecca and finally from Khaibar.
I mean.. you speak about history, then you go into some mental zone of denial which says 'It didn't happen'..... when you know full well it did.
Lets not use the Qurayza Jews.. after all "Ibin Ishaq was a liar who got his stories from Jews".. well..I'll remember that next time some Muslim quotes him to show Mohammad was some kind of 'hero' figure :)

You moving into this 'asserting' mode rather than speaking truthfully.
I guess you are running out of responses, but..God is with you, working in your heart.. drawing you.. so, we will keep praying.

I hope everyone read those Abu Dawud hadiths. I could not believe them at first.. but.. they are 4th in importance for Sunnis, so they have clout.

I generally only bring up these things when you need to be corrected, or when someone else does. So, if you stop saying 'wild' things...my responses will probably become tamer also.
It gives me no pleasure to 'put Islam down' because that impacts on lives. My true pleasure is proclaiming Christ Jesus. But even Jesus criticized the Pharisees in a very stern way.
Warm blessings to you, always remember, they said of Jesus "He has a demon" perhaps the equivalent for me is "you hate all Muslims"?
Neither of them are true. Not for Jesus, nor for me.

Boaz,

I am sure Steven does not need your support he can defend his views.
Every Muslim knows the incident you refer to was related to 'war time treason' and not religious persecution.
a) Only 1 of 3 Jewish tribes committed act of treason.
b) In addition, the prophet asked them to chose their own judge (the judge was a Jewish ally).

Why listen to me? read the truth from Jews who converted to Islam:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-mythson-islam/muhammad_900_jews_notkilled.htm

Now, over to you Steven.

Peace,

As a result of the latest attempt to murder innocents to prove only one God and his followers has the right to live, a Medea event took place.
One of those under arrest had a former Friend tell of what he knew about him.
This friend said while he share the view a world wide Muslim rule must come he unlike his mate would not murder to bring it about.
I understand people like this threads author are against such insanity but question how many are not?.
How can any western government not ask are we wise to let our good will and freedom endanger us?
This country one day will suffer at the hands of such bigotry why not question can we truly live together?
That non violent bigot is in my view unwanted in this country.
I doubt we can without great pain make this part of multi culturism work, why make the effort if it is one sided?

I hope that it is clear to all that things are going from bad to worse. Look at what has happened in the last week. Notice the reaction of the Muslim community to these events. Nothing changes. All we see are the same old excuses and Muslims saying this has nothing to do with Islam. Day after day, year after year these things happen, and Muslims give us the same old excuses and/or start blaming things on everything and everybody - but islam.

We have seen from our Muslims here this same denial. No matter how many times we point out the hate and violence in the Quran, no matter how often we ask that they examine the state of Islamic societies, no matter how many Islamic sources we quote that tell of vile deeds by their prophet - these mean nothing to them.

At best, Muslims argue that others have done the same things, as much as or worse. Often this is true. They don't seem to understand that a non-Muslim murderer or rapist called X, doing evil, is NOT the moral equivalent to Mohammad murdering, torturing, enslaving and raping. We condemn X. X is not a moral example. On the other hand, Muslims love Mohammad and consider him to be a role-model and "mercy to all mankind."

The fact that if this were a public forum in an Islamic country many of the people posting here would have been emprisoned and put to death (Does anyone doubt this?). This does not bother our Muslim friends either. Think about this and ask why this fact does not at all diminish their love for Islam. It can only be one thing.

Understand that the West is confronted by a nihilism so total that it is beyong comprehension and unredeemable. Muslims lie about their religion and its writings without shame. They lie about their attitudes. At best, they are in denial - at worst they are dishonest. In anycase they cannot be trusted with your life and freedoms and those of your family.

Remember these things. I told you so.

Kactuz

Dear FH... I've read all the arguments, I prefer the actual sources, such as they are rather than distantly removed opinions about those sources which contradict them.

The point in mentioning those things, is purely to give balance, and offset the spurious claims that Mohammad was a prophet and "The Best of all Mankind". In the same way that Jesus said "If you do not believe me.. then believe the Miracles".. i.e. "look at what I have done".. I am looking at what Mohammad did. (warts and all) We could neglect that incident, (Banu Qurayza) it would change nothing.

The nub of the issue will always come back to "Is Mohammad a prophet from God"? which of course cannot be. Christ was/is 'the' way.

"Before Abraham was...I am"
"I and the Father are one"

On the grounds of those statements, the Jews knew exactly what he was saying,and charged him with blasphemy, and no one in 2007 can claim a better understanding of Christs words than those who actually heard them, who shared His culture.

"If you have seen me, you have seen the father"
"Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

In John 17 Jesus says "that they may be one, even as we are one" Zakir Naik suggests that this is the real meaning of our Lords words in John 8 and 10. But in John 17 he also says:

3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

COMMENT: My understanding of this, is that eternal life, salvation, has completely and finally come, in Christ. Nothing could come after this of any relevance.

and I can only offer this for your (and everyones) prayerful contemplation. No offense intended.