Shadow, I have always been skeptical of 457 visas and business demands for their 'carte blanche' application. I am skeptical that such visas are used by business as a free ticket to import sub standard, cheap labour from overseas. Labor in government was as guilty as the Coalition is in pandering to these unjustified business demands. The latest from Turnbull is not in response to any perceived wrong in the system, but an attempt to stall the drift of Coalition votes to the radical right and to 'One Nation' in particular. The general cry of business regarding the changes is, it is catastrophic! As one who always takes the business view I am surprised that you would agree with such changes.

It always brings a wry smile to my face when anyone from the conservative side of politics brings up that old chestnut "Australian values", Little Johnny Howard tried to define them as green and gold tracky dacks, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars and how much of 'Waltzing Matilda' one could sing whilst downing a Schooner of the amber fluid at the same time. Given the Multiculturalism of Australian society what is your definition of "Australian Values"

Hi Paul,

Yes, it's fun to trivialise something: beer, pies, daks, yes. I suppose one could do the same with Kiwi 'values': hongis, puha, a distinctive accent and superior notion of humour, football, cricket, Speight's Old Dark (my favourite).

But both countries also value the rule of law, equality of men and women, protection of the disadvantaged, parliamentary democracy, freedom of expression, basically the Enlightenment values, a never-ending project. That's 'values'.

Check out this OLO thread:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18982

Seriously, we really do need to have a national discussion about 'values': what do we believe in as a nation (is it possible to talk of 'nation-wide values') ? What do we stand for ? What would we oppose any change to ? What do we think we should have more of ? Etc.

Cheers,

Joe

Yes, we need to make it quite clear what religions
to hate and what sexual behaviour to disapprove of.
That in this
country there are no class divisions. That you won't
be judged by what titles you have or who your
grandfather was but simply by how much money you have.
Also no matter what faith, colour, or creed you are
you'll still be better off than the Aborigines.

That'll do for a start.

Paul,

There are versions of 457 visas in every country, as there will always be a mismatch between skills required and available especially in areas where there can be 10-20 years of training/ experience required. However, often this has been misused to bring in cheaper labour (though mostly of equal skill), so I have no problem with 457s as such, but more with the oversight to ensure compliance.

With respect to Howard and the values you have invented for him, the reason for including values in a citizenship test is for the person applying to have learnt the values and show that he knows them, so when he is caught marrying an underage girl or some other atrocity, he cannot claim not to have misunderstood.

The basic values do not revolve around meat pies, but about one's rights and obligations such as equal rights regardless of race, gender and religion, and the obligation to obey the law and respect others.

Dearest Foxy,

A bit under-grad there :) Do you have values ? Of course. Do your parents ? Of course. Do your parents think that there is such a thing as being 'distinctively Australian' that they are enthusiastic about ? I'll bet there are. Would they rather be here than in Lithuania, or most certainly the Lithuania of thirty years ago ? Very likely, and good on them.

We all live our lives by certain principles, and assume so much outcome for so much effort, that there is more or less fairness in the world, up to a point. We expect not to be treated worse by the police than the way they treat anybody else, etc. These are our unspoken, implicit values. We all have them. But like the air we breathe, we're often oblivious to them.

You obviously have values, Foxy - you value fairness, giving people the benefit of the doubt, forgiveness, equality of women and men, observance of common rules. These are 'values'.

Please try to stay adult, I'm convinced you can :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

You know everything.

That points clearly to a political career.