Writing about the the pseudo changes to 457 Visa, among other things, David Flint wrote in the April 26 Spectator that "...immigration overall has to be subject to root and branch review involving the people, rather than the Prime Minister playing at the edges to impress the commentariat."

A very sensible comment, I thought.

ttbn Here we go again, the comments of that silly old anachronism David Flint cannot be taken seriously, at the best of times. For some the word immigration is nothing more than a euphemism for Muslim bashing, Do we need another thread for that? We have lots of them already.

Paul1405 - Quote "For some the word immigration is nothing more than a euphemism for Muslim bashing"

I put it to you that is your opinion which you are trying to imply is the opinion of others.

You are wrong Immigration is about the people coming.

There are good immigrants and bad immigrants.

To most people (there are exceptions we do have some racists in Australia as does every country) it is not about race it is about the individual, there are good and bad in every culture, basically Australians do not want the bad elements from other countries.

Bad = welfare for lifers, criminal thugs, rapists, and people who want to turn Australia into the country that they allegedly are seeking protection from.

Paul1405 is off again.

The Greens used to be interested in immigration. Especially from the perspectives of environment and sustainability, but city overcrowding and other issues warranted mention as well. Where did the emphasis on ZPG go? What about contraception and abortion? Only for Australian couples it seems.

But that is all long gone in the Greens' quest to hoover up the disaffected leftists from Labor. All to put the bums on Senate seats, to live lives in clover (overseas travel and golden handshakes), for the educated, middle class urban elite that are the Greens.

Greens senators, an exclusive club: all care and no responsibility and jolly good lifestyles. As demonstrated ably by the 'lights are on but there is no-one at home' Greens Senator Larissa Waters and her sumptuous executive electoral office suite with rooftop garden in hipster 'burb (not in the surrounding less well to do suburbs, mind).

And those very well off NSW Greens Trots, who do very well out of the taxpayer and the capitalism they say they loathe, while living in their million dollar homes off public money taken from the taxpayers who actually do produce things and services of value.

So it also stands without question that the Greens are not going to be worried about workers and blue collar workers . That is unless they are members of the CFMEU, for whose political donations the Greens vie with Labor.

So naturally enough, amateur funnyman Paul1405 as a self-proclaimed good mate and confidant of Lee Rhiannon, her spineless appendage hanging from her coat tails, Sh**bridge and other NSW Greens stirrers, would be grasping for his wooden spoon to do some stirring of his own.

Lest we forget though that there are many Australian nurses for example who have paid for their own education but have not been able to get the jobs that their continued registration and living depend on and all because hundreds of competitors on 457 visas are being used by entrepreneurs in health and aged care to break down conditions (and STANDARDS!).

That's right Phil you are correct, except I am not implying my opinion is necessarily the opinion of all others. There are those who oppose all Muslim immigration, based on the action of some Muslims.

"The Greens a fake environmental party because of their support for mass immigration and a ‘Big Australia’"

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/04/greens-immigration-policy-create-big-australia/

Judging by the election in France Paul, it does appear that a large number of people living with a higher percentage of Muslims in their country than we have yet, have decided that you are totally wrong.

At 11% now in France, & growing rapidly, the Muslim percentage is high enough to have an undesirable effect on election results, but so far the "FRENCH" do appear to be winning. It is also high enough to generate a lot of terrorism.

How much trouble with Muslims here do you need to start to wake up. Currently it is unsafe for a male Caucasian to walk home alone from some railway stations in Muslim infested Sydney suburbs, even in daylight. This is the case where they are only starting to take over a suburb, & make it another no go zone. Single Caucasian women don't even think of doing it, let alone at night.

Talk about the enemy within.

Paul,

If we do not need “another thread for that”, why are you wasting your time and brilliant mind on this one? Is it because you are such a bitch when you take against anyone who is not of your Loony Left? I am against ALL immigration, given Australia's parlous state. But yes, I am particularly opposed to Muslim immigration at any time. I hope you are not giving yourself brownie points for that one, Sherlock. My attitude to Islam and Muslim immigration is bleeding obvious.

Your attitude toward Muslim is just plain far right politics.

Hasbeen is worried about all of this terrorism being created against us. I don,t think we have to much to worry about.
There are rogues in every society, when that is sorted out they are no different than any other person.
The appropriate authorities have your safety under control. So sleep easy and be kind to your Muslim neighbours. They save your life on day.

Good rant, leo. BTW, how is life on the beach?

Which Muslim country are you from Doog?

Doog,

"They save your life on day".

You'll have to explain that one, if you can.

Remember, that people you call 'far right' consider you to be 'far left'. And, they are very happy to be far away from your doctrines.

I want to be a Muslim so I can bash my wife (instead of her bashing me) and have a few
more wives anyway (apparently the social security pay is great and the recreational aspect
must be physically uplifting) and I want to be able to mutilate my daughters so they will
never have a satisfactory sex life stay at home to look after me.
Where do I sign up?
Oh I forgot: I also want to learn how to use an AK47 to fend off whatever I need to fend off.

There they are the two usual suspects again talking in unison. When people bring up all this terrorism stuff we have had in Australia it makes me think of the road toll and its impacts it has on the country,s bottom line.

If it's OK for people to commit carnage on the road without a second thought surely it's ok have the occasional stowaway as a terrorist. What is the difference,dead people are generally dead. Weather it be by road carnage or terrorism. Road carnage outweighs terrorism by far. No comparison at all.

And besides how much road carnage is deliberate, and no different to terrorism in its indiscriminateion.

Comparing terrorism with the road toll! You really have lost it.

After seeing these figures only a fool would want more refugees.

March 10. Germany spent more than €23 billion ($25 billion US$) on the reception, accommodation and care of migrants and refugees in 2016, according to Bundestag Vice President Johannes Singhammer. The average annual cost per migrant was approximately €11,800 ($13,000 US$).

I do believe we need to talk, and make politicians listen, in regards to immigration.
What we dont need, and has nothing to do with immigration, is all the Muslim, Asian, African bashing etc.
We CAN talk about immigration without being intolerant bigots and we should always be wary of NIMBYISM, for want of a better word, where it comes to sharing what we have got.
But how many is too many for this harsh land of ours?
With all the salinity, sprawl, deforestation and habitat loss, wholesale clearing, farming and city based water runoff pollution, garbage, sewerage straight into our oceans, congestion, social decay, crime, homelessness, unemployment, illness etc etc etc.
We really need to talk honestly and fairly about how many people this land can sustain without collapsing.
Just leave the intolerance and racism at the door.
Please.

"My attitude to Islam and Muslim immigration is bleeding obvious." Agreed ttbn your attitude is bleeding obvious, you top the list when it comes to being the forums number one bigot and racists, although you have some stiff competition.

A simple to question for you, so easy even you can answer it: Should my neighbor from Pakistan, his wife and child have not been allowed into Australia?

Oh Toni, I am amazed you would think Leoj could possibly be the devious X forum member Onthebeach, the all knowing, all seeing, X member of the "White Shoe Brigade' who claimed on this very forum to have made a killing by ripping off some unsuspecting city slickers on a land deal, a believer in an armed "Citizens Militia", headed up by the one and only. A one time confidant and bosom buddy of Jim Saleam and later a committed Hansonite. OTB was also infamous for trying to spread a virus through a link he posted, when caught out by me and others, the gutless OTB kept completely silent and would not apologies. OTB would post rehashed rubbishy rants, no doubt cut and paste jobs from his computer, one old diatribe I particularly remember contained now out of date crap about Greens Senator Larissa Waters and her supposedly sumptuous executive electoral office suite with rooftop garden in hipster 'burb (not in the surrounding less well to do suburbs, mind). It would then go on about NSW Greens Trots and the CFMEU, OTB would often rehash that one. The pen is mightier than the sward, but 'cut and paste' is mightier than both, and a whole lot faster. Leoj is nothing like that. I say good riddance to the nasty old Onthebeach and welcome the new Leoj.

Paul1405,

You forgot to address this,

"The Greens are a fake environmental party because of their support for mass immigration and a ‘Big Australia’"

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/04/greens-immigration-policy-create-big-australia/

and this,

"The Greens used to be interested in immigration. Especially from the perspectives of environment and sustainability, but city overcrowding and other issues warranted mention as well. Where did the emphasis on ZPG go? What about contraception and abortion? Only for Australian couples it seems."

That is for starters and after you find time to direct some comments at the OP, which you never do.

Once again, you are endeavouring to hijack the thread to play amateur funnyman and play your forum games including swapping the goal posts around.

Very simple, you make the claims, you provide the evidence Leoj. You are always big on the former but sadly lacking in the latter. I see no compulsion to answer the erroneous claims of some old Hansonite. Where is your evidence?
"amateur funnyman" I see nothing funny in some "other" forumites past history, in this case Onthebeach, do you?

Paul1405,

I have provided evidence, see the posts and the link.

Stop your ducking and ad hominem and provide the answers.

Paul,

“Should my neighbor from Pakistan, his wife and child have not been allowed into Australia?”

Why would you ask someone who you regard as “ number one bigot and racists” such a daft question?

ttbn, possibly there are exceptions to the rule, even for the number one bigot and racists. My question is really asking is there any such thing as a acceptable Muslim immigrant, or like Hanson when asked if there was any such thing as a good Muslim was dumb struck, are you also dumb struck?

Leoj, an opinion piece by Leith van Onselen is hardly evidence, a rather good opinion piece with very nice graphs I must say. Is 200,000 migrants p/a really uncontrolled mass immigration. Are the Greens and for that matter migrants responsible for overcrowded buses and trains and the urban sprawl of Sydney and Melbourne in particular, maybe failed government policy in those areas is the cause.
It is my opinion that a zero world population growth is desirable. given the present growth rate is unsustainable long term. That is not to say there should not be net population increases in some underpopulated areas, and Australia could be considered thus. While at the same time decreases take place elsewhere. Do you find that unreasonable.
The failure of One Nation and those of the extreme right, is they believe population is a domestic concern only, and fail to take a world view on the issue. The simplistic argument from some is Australia should build barriers, exclude all others, and live in happy isolation inside "Fortress Australia". Such advocates do not take into account economic and bilateral relations with other countries, who could perceive such moves as hostile to their own interests.

Hi Doog,

In defence of road deaths, I have to point out that far more people die each year from malaria, malnutrition, and in childbirth. So we need to defend the right of people to drive however they like on the roads, and to die doing so.

As for deaths caused by Islamist terrorists, knifings here, shooting there, less than one a month, obviously, in context, they barely rate. And how about all the terrorist murders that we don't hear about, because of the biased media ? Buddhist terrorists murdering Australians, Sikh and Hindu terrorists murdering Australians ? Baptists kidnapping babies ? How come we never hear of those atrocities ? Hmmmmmm ?

No, we hear only of Islamist atrocities, not to mention that they are invariably taken out of context. There must be a reason for that. Just watch: when the next one or two occur, the media will be all over it.

Joe

Hi Paul,

My limited understanding of NZ's immigration policy is that they take in barely twenty thousand migrants each year, and around seven hundred refugees. I'm sorry if I've got those figures wrong.

As for ZPG, the world is well on the way: Japan's population is about to start shrinking, buoyed up only by the fact that more people are living longer. Something similar is about to happen all over Europe. In fact, Australia's population growth would be only half its present rate without immigration. Even the Indigenous population is growing at barely 1 % p.a., and that only by longer living.

Yes, in what used to be called 'the Third World', populations are rising healthily, particularly in Africa but personally, I celebrate that. But even there, population growth is slowing:

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21679781-fertility-rates-falling-more-slowly-anywhere-else-africa-faces-population

Of course, we forget that Africa is a huge continent, four Australias (i.e. 30 million sq. km), with most of the biggest rivers in the world, and barely developed economically.

If anything, by 2050 [only 33 years away: think 1984], population could be declining in most of the world except in Africa. I won't be around by then, but I wouldn't mind betting that world population will be almost in a temporary balance, perhaps growing only because people are living longer. By 2100, with a much older age-structure, world population may be very slowly declining - in fact, the lack of younger generations may be causing a demographic crisis (perhaps a demographic spiral downwards), forcing people everywhere to work until they are eighty.

$ 10 on it. No, make that $ 1000.

Cheers,

Joe

Paul,

You obviously do not read my posts or you wouldn't continue asking stupid questions. If your neighbours are Muslim - and not too many Pakistanis would not be Muslim, then, no: they should not be here. Although, I suspect that you don't have Pakistani neighbours at all.

I am amused by all of the 'friends' and neighbours people like you conjure up during these discussions about unsuitable immigrants. Muslims do not have infidel friends. It his haram to be friendly with infidels unless there is an Islam-serving reason.

Loudy, your money is safe,

https://youtu.be/_Vog3uZ47O8

Amateur funnyman and forum magician Paul1405 is ever going to sool his hand puppet Mr 'T' onto you.

Mr 'T' has a whole bundle of highly inventive and instructive stories for you, just you wait and see.

What's better, is that hand puppet Mr 'T', who not so strangely agrees with everything Paul1405 says ('Well, D'Oh!') and then goes even further (another Starship Enterprise, going to the most unlikely of places and having even less likely experiences), is even more hyper-vigilant than Paul1405 at finding suspected 'Hansonites' under every bed (and everywhere else too!).

Paul1405,
The Greens are fake environmentalists.

It is all a sham. A front for fringe social policies, which in turn were taken up by the Greens elite to scrounge swinging (in more ways than one!) far leftists from Labor and solely to get those fat behinds of the Greens elite onto Senate seats.

Speaking in particular of SHY's 'Open Door' immigration. It is all virtue signalling to appease and get the votes of the serially disaffected far leftists who are clueless about what the Left were ever about and wouldn't care anyhow.

BTW, SHY is rattling her cage about 'Open Door' immigration again and taking the 457 Visas as her foot in the door. SHY always was a test for the Greens leadership and that is easy stuff for her to mouth off again. What a charmer she is. She'd have the support of Lee Rhiannon and those NSW Greens Trots. Do you know SHY too? Mr 'T' would!

Luciferase,

Sorry if my post appeared to be in reply to you. It was intended to be instructive for ttbn of course. And a reply to Dear Paul1405.

Well onthebeach after attempting to spread a virus on the forum, something that was easily detected by others, and without so much as a "beg your pardon" you scuttled off for a time. Only to reappear as the all seeing, all knowing Leoj. as always claiming to be privy to insider knowledge of The Greens, the Labor Party, in fact you are a self-styled guru of politics world wide. Fraudulently claiming you are a moderate with no political affiliation, when it is obvious you are a Hansonite to the core, who spews the party line at every opportunity. I have no problem with that.

ttbn if you lived where I do you would have lots of ethnically diverse neighbors. From your out of touch posts I can only assume your are isolated in the remote wilderness (battery powered computer included) and are fearful of any contact with people not of your tribe.

Paul,

Where I live there are more Chinese than white people, as well as Indians and a few Africans. That doesn't make them my 'friends'.

Your constant carping and whining about anyone who is not an ignorant, Left wind twat like you are is not worth my attention any longer. I will not be reading your stupid posts in future. You need help with your mental health problems.

Hi Paul,

I don't know about towns like Sydney or Melbourne but in large cities like Adelaide, ethnic segregation, at least by suburbs, is striking. In the more affluent eastern suburbs, right around from Mitcham to Walkerville, I reckon more than 95 % of the populations there would be Anglo-Celtic, maybe less. But out in the western suburbs, in different suburbs, the mix would be much more 50: 50.

Maybe this crops out in different ways: I'm in a couple of singing groups (based in or near those eastern suburbs, and I'd estimate that maybe 80 % of members would be Anglo; in fact, a high proportion would be British (and Dutch: are Dutch especially musical ?) migrants.

On the other hand, out west, when my son was playing soccer, he was one of a handful who weren't 'ethnic' (does Aboriginal count ?) In their western suburbs high school, my kids' mates (back in the 1980s) were various varieties of Slavs and Mediterraneans, as well as Filipino.

My point is that there is a high degree of ethnic segregation in Australian cities. Since it seems to be getting more so, I suggest that this could become a problem for any policy of inclusive multiculturalism.

Test it: mention a suburb and see if someone immediately remarks on its distinctive ethnic composition.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Paul,

Why don't you tell him:

"Oh you hate the Greens? (fill in your own)

Join the Club

There are weekly meetings
at the corner of

F*k you street

And

Kiss my A*s blvd.

Joke of the day from India.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2017/05/bbc-reports-indians-furious-over-aust-immigration-changes-they-are-giving-jobs-to-australians-and-no.html

BBC reports Indians furious over Aust immigration changes "They are giving jobs to Australians and not Indians"

Unreal complaining that the new changes will give preference to Australians not Indians.

Dear Philips S.,

Something to think about.

Will this affect our trade negotiations with India?
Our free-trade deals?

Will it affect our ability to attract long-term
skilled workers and students with their eye on
the future?

We seem to be going the way of the US.
Is that a good idea?

Hi Joe,

The formation of ethic ghettos is never desirable in any community. nor are criminal ethnic gangs. Nothing new there, look at the immigration history of New York. Italians for example settled in Leichhardt Sydney after WWII. Migrants have always settled in areas where friends and/or relatives have previously located themselves, that is only natural. Immigration has never been plain sailing, there are substantial issues with a minority of migrants, but fortunatly there are those in society who are working hard, both from within communities, and from the outside to overcome those problems. Can we do more than that? Possibly.

The towns of Sydney and Melbourne, on that scale that would make Adelaide a village or even less a dot on the map.

Hi ttbn; they are not your friends, I hope they are thankful for such a small mercy. What I do suggest is you lock your doors and windows, pull down the shades, turn off the lights, and pray to the lovely Pauline that she will make them all go away. Then the nightmare will be over for you, wont it.

Hi Foxy,

There is nothing the all knowing all seeing Leoj can post that will in anyway upset me. He works hard on his cut and paste diatribes. he will make an excellent Minister for Propaganda in a future Hansonite regime.

Hi leoj

Were you discussed as I was, in they way that phony 'gas bag' and useless Senator, the lovely Pauline Hanson, tried to tie herself to Australia's fallen war hero's on ANZAC Day, she should be ashamed of herself. You would not do that sort of thing, now would you.

Hi Paul,

The towns of Sydney and Melbourne, on that scale that would make Adelaide a village or even less a dot on the map."

Don't confuse quantity with quality :)

I wasn't thinking of ethnic criminal gangs; I don't think it's as much of a problem in Adelaide as in more lawless cities, except for maybe unemployed Anglos and one or two other groups.

Your point about Italians and Greeks, etc. in the fifties and sixties and seventies: yes, they tended to cluster in low-rent suburbs (although not statistically anywhere nearly as much as 'others' thought), but dispersed to other areas as they settled in, sending their kids on to university rather than into the factories, as Anglo-Australia hoped.

There were plenty of semi-skilled and unskilled jobs back then, and they didn't require high levels of English. They're not there now. But migrants these days - apart from those moving into professional positions - are coming from societies with little industrial history, let alone readying themselves for higher skills. Different times, different groups.

IF migrants are to come here, the government has an obligation to ensure that they either have, or are provided with, the skills that our economy needs now and in the future, not those of a generation - or two generations - ago. It's grossly negligent not to do so. And, of course, English language skills are vastly more necessary now than fifty years ago, as the lingua franca.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Joe,

The perfect migrant is highly educated with skills that are in demand a person who is work ready. I have come across such people, professional people, who have assimilated quickly into Australian society, in some cases these migrants have substantial financial resources of their own. Such are an absolute bonus for any country. However there are not a huge number of migrants like that.

From 2014/15 figures for 190,000 new arrivals;

"Of people migrating to Australia, 68 per cent are skilled migrants and 32 per cent are from family visa streams. This is further broken down to:
Skill: 38 per cent employer sponsored, 34 per cent skilled independent, 22 per cent state, territory and regional nominated and 6 per cent business
Family: 79 per cent partner, 14 per cent parent, 6 per cent child and 1 per cent other"

The average is somewhat different to the ideal, many as you describe and in need;

"IF migrants are to come here, the government has an obligation to ensure that they either have, or are provided with, the skills that our economy needs now and in the future, not those of a generation - or two generations - ago. It's grossly negligent not to do so. And, of course, English language skills are vastly more necessary now than fifty years ago, as the lingua franca."

This may not be completely achievable with many first generation migrants today, in fact I am sure its not. What is achievable is productive gains from subsequent generations. That has been the past history and hopefully it will continue.

Hi Paul,

I suppose I'm lumping refugees in with migrants: they are very different in terms of skills and origins. It's more likely the refugees who need that government assistance. So what you say about lifting people's skills needs some modification:

"This may not be completely achievable with many first generation migrants today, in fact I am sure its not. What is achievable is productive gains from subsequent generations. That has been the past history and hopefully it will continue."

But those working migrants of forty or fifty or sixty years ago knew the options for their kids and could advise them NOT to follow them into the factories. Current refugees - apart from being refugees and not migrants, i.e. to a large extent coming to Australia unwillingly - are not in the position to advise their kids about career options to anywhere near the same extent.

In a way, the situations that Oscar Lewis describes, in his famous works on 'the Culture of Poverty' are much more relevant: that those populations are marginalised from the outset, and their kids don't have many ways of overcoming that initial disadvantage, and so are more likely to drift into lives of inter-generational marginalisation and petty crime, and to devalue education and work.

As a great fan of Oscar Lewis, a Marxist anthropologist with deep commitments to marginalised groups, I wonder what he would think, and advise, about the current situation here.

Cheers,

Joe

Paul,

You can be relied on to miss the point. What you were banging on about was the citizenship test whilst ttbn was talking about the 457 Visa.

I notice that you automatically assume that the new proposed citizen test is aimed at muslims. Are you racially stereotyping? or perhaps you have recognised that this particular group has the greatest difficulty in integrating Australian values? either way, you are guilty of the same discrimination that you accuse others of.

Addressing the issue of the thread

The main changes to the immigration 457 visa system was to remove the easy pathway to citizenship by:
1 Strengthening the requirement to check for local applicants
2 Reducing the number of job categories for which work visas are applicable,
3 Making only the highest skill levels able to apply for permanent residence.
4 Extending the time for application for citizenship.

Re:Joke of the day from India.

As English is one of the official languages of India and "Indglish" is spoken all over the country, I don't see many Indians having problems.
From personal experience when I've been in a part of India where Hindi is not understood I've always gotten by in English.

Is Mise - The joke is not their English ability it is the fact they are complaining, winging that our Government is going to give first preference to Australians and not Indians.

Shadow, I have always been skeptical of 457 visas and business demands for their 'carte blanche' application. I am skeptical that such visas are used by business as a free ticket to import sub standard, cheap labour from overseas. Labor in government was as guilty as the Coalition is in pandering to these unjustified business demands. The latest from Turnbull is not in response to any perceived wrong in the system, but an attempt to stall the drift of Coalition votes to the radical right and to 'One Nation' in particular. The general cry of business regarding the changes is, it is catastrophic! As one who always takes the business view I am surprised that you would agree with such changes.

It always brings a wry smile to my face when anyone from the conservative side of politics brings up that old chestnut "Australian values", Little Johnny Howard tried to define them as green and gold tracky dacks, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars and how much of 'Waltzing Matilda' one could sing whilst downing a Schooner of the amber fluid at the same time. Given the Multiculturalism of Australian society what is your definition of "Australian Values"

Hi Paul,

Yes, it's fun to trivialise something: beer, pies, daks, yes. I suppose one could do the same with Kiwi 'values': hongis, puha, a distinctive accent and superior notion of humour, football, cricket, Speight's Old Dark (my favourite).

But both countries also value the rule of law, equality of men and women, protection of the disadvantaged, parliamentary democracy, freedom of expression, basically the Enlightenment values, a never-ending project. That's 'values'.

Check out this OLO thread:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18982

Seriously, we really do need to have a national discussion about 'values': what do we believe in as a nation (is it possible to talk of 'nation-wide values') ? What do we stand for ? What would we oppose any change to ? What do we think we should have more of ? Etc.

Cheers,

Joe

Yes, we need to make it quite clear what religions
to hate and what sexual behaviour to disapprove of.
That in this
country there are no class divisions. That you won't
be judged by what titles you have or who your
grandfather was but simply by how much money you have.
Also no matter what faith, colour, or creed you are
you'll still be better off than the Aborigines.

That'll do for a start.

Paul,

There are versions of 457 visas in every country, as there will always be a mismatch between skills required and available especially in areas where there can be 10-20 years of training/ experience required. However, often this has been misused to bring in cheaper labour (though mostly of equal skill), so I have no problem with 457s as such, but more with the oversight to ensure compliance.

With respect to Howard and the values you have invented for him, the reason for including values in a citizenship test is for the person applying to have learnt the values and show that he knows them, so when he is caught marrying an underage girl or some other atrocity, he cannot claim not to have misunderstood.

The basic values do not revolve around meat pies, but about one's rights and obligations such as equal rights regardless of race, gender and religion, and the obligation to obey the law and respect others.

Dearest Foxy,

A bit under-grad there :) Do you have values ? Of course. Do your parents ? Of course. Do your parents think that there is such a thing as being 'distinctively Australian' that they are enthusiastic about ? I'll bet there are. Would they rather be here than in Lithuania, or most certainly the Lithuania of thirty years ago ? Very likely, and good on them.

We all live our lives by certain principles, and assume so much outcome for so much effort, that there is more or less fairness in the world, up to a point. We expect not to be treated worse by the police than the way they treat anybody else, etc. These are our unspoken, implicit values. We all have them. But like the air we breathe, we're often oblivious to them.

You obviously have values, Foxy - you value fairness, giving people the benefit of the doubt, forgiveness, equality of women and men, observance of common rules. These are 'values'.

Please try to stay adult, I'm convinced you can :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

You know everything.

That points clearly to a political career.

Hi Foxy,

I'm glad that you recognise that one of those Australian values is the recognition of great talent and the expectation that it should be amply rewarded. Unfortunately, I'm a bit too old now for that. But then again Adenauer was well over seventy when he was appointed German Chancellor after the War. Then there was de Gaulle ....... And Churchill was pushing seventy when he became Prime Minister in 1940. But then of course, there is Trump, as a cautionary counter-example.

Let me think about it.

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

Let me explain.

My earlier post about Australian values was meant
as a satire. My previous last post was facitious.
It was taken from George Bernard Shaw:

"He knows nothing and thinks he knows everything.
That points clearly to a political career."

As for the question of values? I have stated
many times that loyalty, democracy, tolerance, the
rule of law; values worth promoting, values worth
defending. The values of Australia and its citizens.

I trust this clear things up.

Thank you, Foxy, I know a little bit more now.

Is that quote from 'St Joan' ?

Joe

What some may not always do is give the context when quoting from Peter Costello and ors.

Doubtless busy posters have little time for that. But it does assist to put things into the original author's perspective rather than that of the person quoting, who might be tempted to put it to her/his ends instead.

Peter Costello was naturally hugely affected by the London Underground bombing and other atrocities committed in the name of Islam. He made at The Sydney Institute where he made an earnest, heart-felt appeal for all (he was being diplomatic and inclusive, we are mostly migrants etc) to accept and obey Australian law and obviously as in the manner it is intended and by their words and behaviour too.

Now a White Knight for Islam (perish the thought there might be any on OLO) might try to turn that around to where it appears that Costello was actually blaming the Australian community that has always been so generous and accepting to migrants, for the offences of violent Islamists and for their attempts to shaft Australian law in favour of Sharia.

Such rhetorical gymnastics would require a 'White Knight' to lead readers into accepting that offenders who break the law do so because they have no other option or are 'swayed' by alleged poor treatment and 'discrimination' directed at them. That is, that the victims and the innocent, vulnerable community of which they are part are at least complicit and probably totally responsible, for the offences and the harm done against them. That is B.S.!

The most obvious example of that noxious rationalisation is blaming the rape victim for her rape. Interestingly, that is exactly the thinking and defence of those horrid Islamist rapists and molesters in Rotherham, UK, in Sweden, in Germany and in Australia too.

As most would know and read him, Peter Costello would have the full force of the law descend on any offender without fear nor favour and he definitely would not be party to excusing their offending, attempted blame-shifting and their poor choices, freely made.

Sorry,

"He made A SPEECH at The Sydney Institute where he made an earnest, heart-felt appeal for all (he was being diplomatic and inclusive, we are mostly migrants etc) to accept and obey Australian law..."

Peter Costello did make a speech after the London
Underground bombing of 2005 at the Sydney Institute in
which he argued that freedom and tolerance can be
protected only within a legal framework that is
accepted by all.

He also wrote a great deal
on "Australian Citizenship - Worth Promoting, Worth
Defending", in his Memoirs (page 358 onwards) where he
covers that topic in even greater detail and
from which I have cited in many discussions
on this forum.

For anyone interested in this subject I can highly
recommend his book, "The Costello Memoirs" written by
him with his father-in-law - Peter Coleman.
Peter Coleman argues that Costello's story is one of
high achievement. He helped create and managed the
Age of Prosperity in Australia. He should have been Prime
Minister. The book is an interesting read.
Highly recommended.