continued

The ancient Greeks were an early literate people who apparently contained both sceptics and believers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protagoras

“Protagoras also was a proponent of agnosticism. Reportedly, in his lost work, On the Gods, he wrote: "Concerning the gods, I have no means of knowing whether they exist or not, nor of what sort they may be, because of the obscurity of the subject, and the brevity of human life." According to Diogenes Laërtius, the outspoken, agnostic position taken by Protagoras aroused anger, causing the Athenians to expel him from the city, and all copies of his book were collected and burned in the marketplace. The deliberate destruction of his works also is mentioned by Cicero.

The classicist John Burnet doubts this account, however, as both Diogenes Laërtius and Cicero wrote hundreds of years later and as no such persecution of Protagoras is mentioned by contemporaries who make extensive references to this philosopher. Burnet notes that even if some copies of the Protagoras books were burned, enough of them survived to be known and discussed in the following century. A claim has been made that Protagoras is better classified as an atheist, since he held that if something is not able to be known it does not exist.”

Protagoras may or may not have been persecuted for his skepticism.

According to Plato Socrates was condemned to death for impiety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

“Socrates defended his role as a gadfly until the end: at his trial, when Socrates was asked to propose his own punishment, he suggested a wage paid by the government and free dinners for the rest of his life instead, to finance the time he spent as Athens' benefactor. He was, nevertheless, found guilty of both corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens and of impiety ("not believing in the gods of the state"), and subsequently sentenced to death by drinking a mixture containing poison hemlock.”

Socrates was probably guilty of impiety, but I don’t think it should be a crime.

Jesus continually talked about freedom and he lived free and encouraged others to live free; challenging Talmud laws and ritual. In fact the charges brought against him by the Temple hierarchy was that he violated their laws. He reaped grain and healed on their Sabbath, ate with unwashed hands and the unclean. He certainly would not have endorsed slavery as he stated he came to "set captives free". This was the case of Legion who was held captive by the Gadarines to watch over their pigs.

Again, Josephus, it was clearly not enough, and Jesus should have known that it wouldn’t be.

Worse still, the New Testament clearly condones slavery. Yes, that book that so many here on OLO would like to pass of as all sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows everywhere, is still immoral.

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6:5-9&version=NLT

“Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.” (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+6%3A1-2&version=NLT

There you go. Straight from thy Lord and Saviour’s mouth: one can own slaves and still be a Christian.

Or a Scotsman, if you know what I mean.

Dear Josephus,

There simply is no evidence that Jesus spoke against slavery. You may twist, turn, distort, reinterpret or whatever, but there is no evidence that Jesus condemned slavery. Jesus, if he existed, was a flawed human being like the rest of us. Come up with evidence, and I will examine it. Meanwhile I will not respond any more to your twisting, turning, distorting and reinterpreting on that subject.

Hi David,

"People in semi-civilized or tribal societies may be able to think logically and be sceptical of the tribal beliefs."

I suppose so, although as you go on to detail, scepticism in such societies often had dire consequences. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but it's worth pointing out that, since the Enlightenment with all its faults, scepticism has - or it did until PC took over the universities and sanctioned nappy-changing - become something of a virtue. In most pre-industrial societies, it was more of a crime. In order to test this, try being sceptical in a mosque in Saudi Arabia, or even at n Indonesian political rally. Others may report on your test results posthumously, and perhaps anonymously.

Yes, of course, the best Greek philosophers were sceptics, scepticism is almost the definition of 'civilization'. It didn't do Socrates much good though.

Of course, people in pre-civilized societies may be able to think logically, to put one foot in front of the other, to look around if someone calls, to look for something to eat (if there is food) when one is hungry: these are all matters of basic logic. But being able to 'logically' analyse and pull apart one's fundamental cultural paradigms ? Maybe we need some evidence.

Of course, my favourite example would be Job: what the Books say about God and Satan making a deal to ruin Job and see if he still loved God is fascinating - I can't understand why the Book of Job is in the bible, it castigates God, if anybody reads the ending; God throw his weight around (does God have weight?)and Job seems to just shrug his shoulders and say, 'Well God, you're the boss, you can do whatever the hell you like, but just piss off and leave me alone.'

Job was probably your typical quiet, careful, sceptic, David, who wanted to keep his head on his shoulders, in the face of total power. Love it :)

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth,
The book of Job deals with polytheism and is corrupted Paleo Hebrew most likely written by a Hebrew slave while in captivity in Babylon. The God Elohim mentioned in the opening chapters is polytheistic and Celestial while his son administer the Earth. This concept is foreign to Hebrew thought. Job who lived about 1,900 BC makes the claim against his polytheistic counsellors of the Elohim, he believes God Aloah [a monotheistic God of Edom] will appear in the Earth to justify his abandonment of polytheism. Moses introduces YHWH 1,300 BC who gives and YHWH takes away. The book concludes with YHWH [Hebrew monotheist God] appearing verifying Job's claim and calling for repentant sacrifice by his polytheistic counsellors.