Mr Turnbull,
Increasing the AFP presence in Canberra is NOT an appropriate response to a terrorist attack.

What is 'appropriate' is to stop more muslims entering Australia, especially the ISIS fighters returning from Syria.

Stop playing around with this and get fair dinkum about protecting Australians. What more warning signs do you need?

come on Banjo you know that Turnbull is as weak as water when it comes to Islam. If it wasn't for Abbott we would still have the boats coming while Turnbull dines with all the Imans and repeats the regressive mantra that Islam is a 'religion of peace'.

Justice Minister Michael Keenan MP says an increased AFP
presence at Parliament after the Westminster attack is
standard procedure.

"We've taken measures over the past few years to enhance
security here," the Minister said. "It's normal after a
big international event that we have enhanced the
presence of police officers, a more visible presence, and
people will see that at Parliament House today."

The increased security presence coincided with a State visit
by Chinese Premier Li Keqiang who has arrived in Canberra at
the start of a five-day trip.

Foxy,
Funny isn't it, restrict gun ownership for ordinary people but increase the guns around Parliament House to protect themselves.

No, an appropriate response would be to stop the most likely terrorists from coming here. And breeding here.

Great is it not that we provide Phycologocal services for muslim gang rapists in Jail and the phycologist then has an affair with one and then marries another. We are smart!

One day somebody will notice that all the terrorists and would be terrorists we have locked up are Muslim.

Using civilian police is not an appropriate response to Muslim terrorists. We are a war with Islam, and only soldiers can fight wars.

The Muslim Council of Britain has condemned the terror
attack which struck the heart of London. Religious
leaders said it was too early to speculate on the
attackers' motives. They offered "thoughts and prayers"
to the victims.

Many public figures including the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan
have praised the "tremendous bravery" of the emergency services
during the incident.

The Prime Minister Theresa May has revealed that the terrorist
was British born wh some years ago had been investigated by
MI5 over "violent extremism". He was known to security
services. However he was not part of the current intelligence
picture. And there was no prior intelligence of his intent
or plot. More information will be forthcoming.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/london-attack-muslim-council-of-britain-condemns-westminster-terror-attack-a3496876.html

What makes that event a terrorist attack; but our Melbourne attack was not?
Is it only a terrorist attack when the politicians get scared, not when they just kill innocent civilians?

Until The Attorney General really looks at the ideas that inspire such behaviour we are unlikely to outlaw it as lawless and criminalise a person holding such thoughts. The whole ideology needs to be brought to Court and exposed as not religious but brainwashed evil.

Regarding London. I guess another Moderate moslim Lone Wolf has left the Pack.

Banjo: What is 'appropriate' is to stop more moslims entering Australia, especially the ISIS fighters returning from Syria.

You are so right Banjo. I see now the Lawyers are trying very hard to get all sorts of exceptions for these Jihadi & their families so they can re-enter Australia. If they are missing their families we should send the families to them. Scrimple.

Banjo: restrict gun ownership for ordinary people.

There is the problem that most ordinary would not buy a gun, but every moslim would have an arsenal. We would really be in trouble from moslim Terrorists then.

runner: Turnbull is as weak as water when it comes to Islam. and repeats the regressive mantra that Islam is a 'religion of peace'.

I'm sure it has to do with how much money The Saudi's spend in Australia. Appeasement to keep the money flowing in.

Foxy: "We've taken measures over the past few years to enhance
security here,"

Before this mass influx of moslims into Australia no-one would have done anything. Nothing to do with our Security.

Foxy: The increased security presence coincided with a State visit
by Chinese Premier Li Keqiang.

There is that too. Look at the Security for US Presidents & the Queen. Still, Australia never even Considered the Security System we have now before the influx of moslems.

Foxy: the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said...

He also said that Terrorism is just part of living in a big City. Well maybe in the ME it is because they have moslims. We didn't have many until they were let in Hollis Bollis. Now Australia has Terrorism in the Big Cities as "normal?"

Josephus: The whole ideology needs to be brought to Court and exposed as not religious but brainwashed evil.

The lot needs to be removed, Lock, Stock & Barrel. The Good, the Bad & the Ugly.

Maybe the British will wake up to the fact that those in the front line need to be armed.
The policeman who was knifed to death didn't stand much of a chance;
he should have been armed and trained to react and kill.

Unfortunately most of our police are rotten shots and don't get much in the way of training.

Until we recognise the problem is a brainwashed ideology that needs to be eradicated from the Earth, we will just continue to shoot those that murder innocents first. The problem is not weapons but ideas

When you keep telling people their problem is their
identity, it's who they are, and you keep attacking
them in the media and on multiple fronts consistently
applying the blowtorch to whatever their beliefs may
be then there's no room to talk about real issues and
problems like radicalisation. There's a total breakdown
in communication and often people are pushed towards
extremism. Consistently looking at people in a
negative light leads to disconnection and that's when
you've got problems.

But keep right on pushing and blaming "others".
But what are you going to do with the ones who were born
here and Australia is the only country they've ever
known? Send them back where?

IS MISE alleges '...unfortunately most of our police are rotten shots and don't get much in the way of training...'? Is that right, IS MISE, and you would know this how? When it comes to F/A's as I said some time ago, your credibility became suspect, and you're increasing that level of suspicion exponentially , with some of these unfounded theories of yours. I know, you know a bloke who knows another bloke, who used to be a copper?

Foxy: There's a total breakdown in communication and often people are pushed towards extremism. Consistently looking at people in a
negative light leads to disconnection and that's when you've got problems.

That's exactly right Foxy. Australians are refusing to get the Message. Australians are not taking up Islam. They have communicated with us, pleaded with us, knifed people, shot people, even threatened us with Beheadings, Bombings & still we are not getting their message that we have to convert to Islam, now.

We keep telling them, No. It's no wonder they are getting angry. We are just not listening to them.

O sung wu,
How many shots does a policeman fire in practice in the course of a year?

My experience with police on the range has been very negative the main complaint being safety procedures; a minor complaint, more to do with good manners than anything else, has been rubbish left on the range.

My youngest daughter was a Police Firearms Instructor and her experiences was that most of them were poor shots and some of them woeful.

However, if I'm wrong just list the police that have won a shooting competition against civilian marksmen.

This is about Queensland but there is no reason to believe that other States are different.

"QUEENSLAND police receive less training to use a gun than security guards and social shooters.

Officers are required to shoot just 60 bullets at the range once a year despite private gun licence holders being forced to practise six times annually to keep a licence.

Gun trainers have told The Sunday Mail some officers are scared to fire their police-issued Glock while others struggle to strip their weapons and name parts.

Officers shoot for about an hour a year and to re-qualify.... must hit 12 of 15 rounds in a shaded area of a target, or 80 per cent of the time, with the remaining 20 per cent hitting the target body profile.

Civilians must fire 200-300 rounds a year at a minimum over six competition shoots to maintain a gun licence."

This was in the Sunday Mail late last year (cannot reference as the Subscribe device cut in).

However,

"Queensland Police Service commissioner Ian Stewart today launched an immediate review of policy, procedures and training for violent confrontations.

Bond University criminologist and former detective inspector Terry Goldsworthy said....general duty police officers only attended one firearms training session a year.

"I think there's probably going to have to be a review of police training in regards to use of force options," he said."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-25/police-firearms-training-does-not-develop-instincts-officer/5917082

Recently there was talk of NSW Police being issued with rifles as their pistol skills left a lot to be desired.

Further to the above:

“The tests carried out showing the comparison between an ordinary trained cop using a standard glock compared to the long-arm were staggering,” a NSW officer told The Saturday Telegraph."

“Using a Glock at 25m, 50m and above the ­officer shooting at an active shooter would also hit three other people, whereas with the rifle the shooter was taken out without any innocent bystanders injured at all.”

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/nsw-police-can-soon-use-longarm-semiautomatic-guns/news-story/016f7325cf77df8cd7e857123955b598

The PM should explain his claim that for us to stop muslim immigration 'is what ISIS wants'. How come PM?

The truth is more likely to be that he has no idea of how to make Australians less vulnerable to terrorist attack and muslims are his friends anyway so he will put their interests ahead of Australians. He wants more to come here.

As for LNP Pyne saying ON nation wants to deport Australians. That is an utter lie and he should retract it. Labor and Shorten are also lacking any useful ideas and support more imported muslims to make the place less safe.

We really need new leadership of the major parties. Someone that cares for the well being of Australians.

Attorney General Brandis is in the Herald this morn warning that IS is forming/will form an International Caliphate as they lose ground in the ME and that the threat to Australia will not diminish.

Perhaps he should tell the PM.

What are we talking about arming Police, it has nothing to do with the problem. Shooting murderers after events of murder has happened is not the answer. We need to eradicate the ideas and motivation of those intending to murder innocent persons. We are able to curtail association of persons intending harm to our society. Let us enforce laws that identify those that intend us harm.

banjo: As for LNP Pyne saying ONE nation wants to deport Australians. That is an utter lie and he should retract it.

It's an idea that I would support if they are moslim. It seems that 2nd. 3rd. & 4th generation moslims are the main problem & are being pushed by the Imams. If they want to leave for Syria I would help them go & never to return along with their families.

Foxy, based on your theory, we shouldn't discuss neglect, abuse and violence in remote aboriginal communities because that will push all aboriginal people into dysfunctional behaviour.
Nor should we publicise or discuss violence and criminal acts done by African youths because that will alienate all of them.
Presumably you believe ignoring the issue will resolve it. Similar to the attitude of the average German in the 1930s.
I think the average Australian has enough intelligence to know that not all Muslims are terrorists, or want to impose Sharia law in this country, however, it's time all the peace loving Muslims made more of an attempt to make their culture more compatible with ours and definitely time they begin to loudly condemn all acts that don't belong with our value system.

Josephus,

" Shooting murderers after events of murder has happened is not the answer"

Perhaps not, but it sure stops them committing more murders, particularly of policemen trying to apprehend them.

What would you recommend that the London policeman, so savagely knifed to death in the latest Islamic atrocity in England, should have done; he didn't have a gun.

IS MISE...

Whatever it is you say, must be right IS MISE - Please recall what I said about your credibility - seems as though it's still plummeting south...and falling.

o sung wu,

As I recall you got a bit upset by some of my claims that I had done some very ordinary shooting with an original .36 Navy Colt and I gave examples of far better shots than me doing even better shooting.

But to return to your opinions, care to answer any of the questions that I asked?

How many shots did you fire in a year?

Here's a bit more from 2015:

"MORE than a quarter of police officers have failed the new “active shooter” courses designed to teach them how to stop terrorists in the past month.

Sources said up to half the participants in some groups had to repeat sections of the FBI-style training, particularly the section involving medium to long-range shooting.

This has prompted calls from officers for police to be equipped with rifles, similar to the US police."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/nsw-police-officers-failing-active-shooter-terrorist-training-using-standard-issue-glock-handguns/news-story/868833a566192ae106da99930589db95

IS MISE...

I'll respond to your questions purely because of the respect I once held you in.

(a) Shots I've fired in a year? Wouldn't know - probably the minimum required.

However, on the FBI F/A's Instructor School, 1986; Shotgun 'The Advance' (qualifying) Serial: Move, fire & reload: *High Light; *Low Light; and *No Light conditions. Using 'Federal Tactical', no. OO Buckshot and Brenneke Solids, in one 9 hour day, commencing at 1600hrs to 0200hrs, with 45 mins off for our meal break: - firing in excess of 450rds of the above. Not very many I hear you say? Try it with a 18inch Barrel, modified Remington 870, mostly unsupported, and occasionally, with an unorthodox support.

The other 'shorts' on which we were required to qualify; Revolver; 38/357, Pistol; 9mm 10mm .45ACP Walther TPH. Non Qualification; but required to familiarize with 'shorts'; Revolver; .44mag .454Casul, .357 Desert Eagle Pistol, together with a couple other revolvers and pistols I've since forgotten.

The FBI Snipers School was held about 16 months after the F/A Inst. School. All naturally using 'longs'. The toughest part being, The Night Stalking exercise while being fully equipped and wearing your ridiculous Ghillie Suit (no requirement for police!)during this stalking exercise. In the Mojave Desert, in pitch black conditions, while constantly tripping over these bloody 'Gopher' Holes! And I never saw a Gopher?

The 'college cops' (FBI) cop abuse from the media and other police forces in the US ad nauseam.

There are always assertions made about coppers. Some are true, most are simply 'bullock excreta'. You would surely know that IS MISE? Who made these assertions? Anything to do with the media, I'd take with a grain of salt. Anything that'll conjure up a good yarn.

Finally, police must qualify with their issue F/A's, otherwise they're not permitted to carry it, thus they become office bound. Some are excellent shots, some good shots, others are OK shots, while a few struggle though their qualifying shoots.

o sung wu,

With all that experience, why did you doubt my modest claim of hitting a figure target at 100 yards with the Navy Colt?

Seem to me, that with all that training you could do even better.

I'll stick by what I said, though, most police are lousy shots, furthermore, they are generally ill-trained with, and have a poor knowledge of firearms.

Unlike you IS MISE, I have many more recreational pursuits in my life than this unhealthy and strangely intense worshiping of Firearms, that you seem to have? Firearms to me are nothing more than a tool. A tool that hitherto, I'll never have a need to make use of.

As to whether or not your a better shot than I, has no interest for me whatsoever. Therefore I'll happily defer to your superior knowledge and shooting expertise than mine. And at your age IS MISE, with respect, surely there are other less lethal hobbies for which to engage your interests. Other than this very deleterious and intense dalliance you seem to have, for all things concerning blood-lust, guns and killing. An almost pathological curiosity you seem to have IS MISE?

And this astonishing and completely unprovable averment, you've continued to make, is utterly ludicrous.

'Most police are lousy shots'; by who's standards; and how would you know?

'They are generally ill-trained'; again by who's standard, and you of course IS MISE, would know this how?

'And have a poor knowledge of F/A's'. What, have you tested and interviewed all 15,000 plus, sworn members in NSW, IS MISE?

Sir, you are speaking arrant rubbish! What you've said borders on both ludicrousness and stupidity! If for a moment, all of what you've said is true - how would you know? An elderly gentleman (like myself) who wouldn't have a skerrick of notice taken of him, with any of these dubious and totally implausible contentions.

You know we've spoken about credibility, well it's descending further and further south I'm afraid.

" And at your age IS MISE, with respect, surely there are other less lethal hobbies for which to engage your interests. Other than this very deleterious and intense dalliance you seem to have, for all things concerning blood-lust, guns and killing. An almost pathological curiosity you seem to have IS MISE?"

Turned 83 just two days ago, o sung wu.
Still hunting foxes (of which you approved) and still shooting them with the Ruger No1 in .220Swift (of which you also approved); why the sudden disapproval? Old age?

On the subject of shooting prowess, three weeks ago I gave a demo to some of the young blokes and fired 15 aimed shots at 50 yards from a .22 single shot rifle in 60 seconds.
I'm also regularly (once a month) shooting pistol. In the rapid fire event's 5 second stage (6 aimed shots in 5 seconds) I get all six on target using a reproduction of a Colt 1873 model, single action, revolver (Uberti 'Cattleman' https://www.uberti-usa.com/1873-single-action-cattleman-revolvers ).
For those who don't know, the single action has to be manually cocked for each shot; they are considered to be slow.
In fact, the first two shots can be fired much faster than the first two from a semi-automatic pistol, such as the Glock.

Police competence and training?

Read the newspaper reports that I gave reference to and the Coroner's report on the Lindt Cafe siege.

And don't forget my daughter's experience as a Police Firearm Training officer (I gave her her initial training!!). She is currently in Europe where she holds a very responsible firearm training position in one of the EEC countries.

What all this nonsense about skills at shooting has to do with preventing radicalisation of persons to Islam is off subject and will not prevent one person from taking a car and mowing down innocent persons in the street. We must stop the killing of innocents before it happens not merely shoot the murderer behind the wheel. You guys are obsessed with killing yourselves.

We must do as some countries have done and that is ban the Koran, and those that teach its murderous message.

Josephus,

"We must do as some countries have done and that is ban the Koran, and those that teach its murderous message."

I don't agree, banning the Koran would stop people from understanding why it is such a menace to Western Democracy, but I'll go along with banning its messengers.

"You guys are obsessed with killing yourselves."

Hardly!!

We have many more typical violent attacks from criminals
and people of other cultures/religions - but these are
conveniently overlooked and are not called terrorists.

Yes, we should investigate terrorist groups and find anyone
who is involved in them.
There are criminal groups that are a problem
but all cultures have criminal groups that are a
problem. Most of these are already known to the police.

We have a mixed neighbourhood - including Muslims. They do
not cause problems in our neighbourhood. They have great
children who study hard, their kids tend to go to the library
instead of the local pub. The girls don't wear inappropriate
outfits to school. We can learn from each other, to be honest.
They are family oriented overall and their children work and
study hard and are well behaved and successful - making the
local papers as top students and sporting figures.

It seems to me that many people here are just afraid of others
who are not like them and make generalisations that are simply
wrong.

I guess there is a natural fear of what is different. But this
is the 21st Century so instead of complaining about how others
live, let us focus on how we live and what we can change to
make everyone's life better - starting with our neighbours.
Remember exclusion can be very destructive as "Self-hate
destroys, self-esteem saves."

cont'd ...

A prime example of "terrorism" prior to the Muslim
issue existed in Norther Ireland. They were Catholics
and the British branded them as "terrorists." In
Australia at that time there were thousands of Irish
Catholics - were they a problem? Central America has a
major drug trafficking problem. The government is talking
of bringing in migrants from Central America. Is that
going to be a problem? There are the Chinese triad gangs
are the Chinese a problem? I'm sure that if we pick any
ethnic group - there will be elements within each group
that can be criticised, including amongst our own -
you just need to study our own criminal history.

Still no matter what is done or said - some people will
continue to beat the same old tired drum.

IS MISE...

The Coroner's inquest into the Lindt Cafe; The Coroner wasn't there. The coppers in charge who were there, had a decision to make.

(i)An immediate 'hard entry'; * 'Hard entries' have drawn much criticism from both Coroner's and media in past Ops.;

(ii) Wait and negotiate *A sound tactic proven in past Ops., however it failed in the Lindt matter.

(iii) Wait offender out. *An existing Vicpol tactic, adopted after, criticism from the judiciary, the media, and the public. NB: It should be noted:- There had been quite a number of fatal shootings involving Vicpol leading up to this current strategy they've since adopted.

Most (tactical) police including myself, prefer the 'Hard Entry' every time, where there's a reasonable expectation of, loss of life by an innocent. That is after you've failed in your initial negotiation(s). Whereas it doesn't allow the peanut to settle in and consolidate their position.

Better to have a live hostage standing beside you at an Inquest, than you with your long white beard, hobbling along to the Coroners Court with the aid of your walking frame, because you tried to 'wait him out'. Besides, how long do you linger? Should he be served 'tea 'n bickies' during this protracted process?

There's nothing, that makes a hard, well trained and courageous police Commander, quiver like a 'girls blouse' than a packed media circus, breathing down his neck.

A footnote that says it all... Former Commissioner of Fedpol, Major General Ronald GRAY once said, '...I'd rather face down a Bn of NVA regs. than anyone from the media...'? Commissioners all of this country are terrified of adverse media (public) attention. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever, this figured large, in the minds of the Lindt Cafe Commander(s).

In which police force did your daughter serve? And why would I take any notice of her, albeit she's probably a perfectly lovely person?

Destruction of vermin is good, your No.1 Ruger is good. I told you I had a No.1 'Tropical' Ruger in .458Win designed to take any of the 'big four'. So what's precisely your point?

o sung wu,

You bring up a further point in the lack of training in the police forces, willingness to put up with the media.
A good commander would not let them within a thousand yards of an operation, let alone inviting them in.

Why should you take note of my daughter's experiences?
Because she was at the sharp end of training police in using firearms, pistols especially, and she was thoroughly pissed off at the lack of training and the consequent lack of competency.

Is there one news report of the police denying the items that I quoted?

In a hostage situation, in a small area, an area with very hard walls, such as the Lindt Cafe; who in their right minds would go in and fire ball ammunition?

Foxy,

The only group in our society that follows a creed that condemns our type of society, is Islam.

Read a recognised translation of the Qur'an; the Saudi Embassy will give you a very handsomely produced copy for free; that's where I got my treasured copy.

Is Mise: Read a recognised translation of the Qur'an; the Saudi Embassy will give you a very handsomely produced copy for free; that's where I got my treasured copy.

She said she is too busy to even bother reading the Bible let alone the koran or any verses from the koran we post. he won't be doing that, besides, she doesn't want to know about those things because she would have to pull her head out of the sand to read them. I've taken this up with her before.

Dear Is Mise,

Again with the same old argument that all Muslims
follow all the bad bits in the Koran. And you are
arguing that the Koran is to blame for violent
behaviour. Ignoring the fact that it is fundamentalists that
adapt what is written to suit their extremist
ideologies and views - as extremists do in all religions.
"The Devil made me do it!" "The voices told me to kill!"
And so on.

The vast majority of modern mainstream Christians, Jews,
and Muslims seek a better life on earth, rather than
seeking it in heaven. Even if they believe in heaven, they
seek to have a happy life on earth. Modern people (with
normal family and social relationships, and an at least
partially rational view of how the world works) are not
waiting for Armageddon, or a future coming of a saviour.

Nor are they waiting for anything else that exercises
the theological minds of fundamentalists. I repeat that
the religiously-minded person is not a 'card-carrying'
fundamentalist. The latter are a tiny minority. Of
whatever faith. A psychologist would be likely to declare
them (as I've stated previously many times) to be of
unsound mind.

Modern people are focused on improving the human condition on
earth. Their attitude is in direct contrast to the vision
of fundamentalists. Religious fundamentalism - where belief
is in the literal word of the Bible, the Koran or the Torah,
as the rule book for how to live and die - is the arch enemy
of achieving a good life on earth because if you seek
(and, for some fundamentalists you want to get there as soon
as possible) what you do on earth today and what you do to
your fellow human beings does not matter. In fact, if Armageddon
is a necessary precursor to the second coming (and utopia in
heaven) you will destroy and kill to accelerate your embrace by
God in the hereafter. Very, very sad. And pathologically sick

IS MISE your obvious intransigence on the subject of; choice of Tactics, Firearms and Ordnance, used by police at the Lindt Cafe operation, is utterly breathtaking.

Together with your lack of understanding and appreciation of how exactly the media, the Coroner's Office and the public at large, can and does have a negative impact on police command. You say, '...A good commander wouldn't let them within a 1000yards of the operation, let alone inviting them in...'? Well, I guess you've identified another strategic police failure. They should've invited you to become the 'special counsel' assisting the Coroner. You could've really decimated the coppers then eh.

I wonder what it is that's triggered your obvious antipathy you harbour against police? Problems with licensing of your F/A's? Difficulties with your outspoken assertions that you have the undeniable right to posses, carry and use a handgun for your own protection. Somehow I reckon it's all tired up with something like this my friend isn't it.

Given your above observations, together with your opinion re. the injudicious use of Ball ammunition at the Lindt Cafe, I'd be most grateful indeed if you'd kindly appraise me of what precisely you would've done, if you'd been OIC of police on the day in question?

You say your daughter was at the 'sharp end' of F/A's training for the Police Force. What lucky Police Force got the benefit of all her training? This is second time I've asked you IS MISE? Please tell me? Or have you made a simple error during the excitement of responding to my ridiculous assertions on the topic of F/A's?

o sung wu,

I fully appreciate how things have a negative impact on police command, that's why I wouldn't have the media within 1000 yards of an operation.
The media are there to report the news not to help make it, which of course they do by their negative impact.

"I wonder what it is that's triggered your obvious antipathy you harbour against police?"

I have consistently stuck up for the police on this and other forums, it is not the fault of the ordinary policeman or woman that they do not get sufficient firearm training, it is the fault of higher command (a higher command that you have often criticized/condemned) and a parsimonious Government that won't spend on firearms training and ammunition.

As there was only one gunman in the cafe I'd have sent in a team of three armed with their pistols (because they normally carry them) and shotguns for immediate use.
Said shotguns loaded with No7 shot or smaller to minimise lethal ricochets, at the range involved such would have hit with lethal force.

Which police force my daughter was in is completely irrelevant to this discussion as is her present appointment.

Foxy, How many Muslims have you changed from radical to moderate or are you just talk.
It only takes 5% of a population to take over a society with its radical views. They estimate about 120,000 Muslims in Australia currently dispose Western Democracy and want an Islamic State. Have you talked to any and convinced them to recognise our great traditions as superior.

IS MISE...As you've an unusual penchant for laboriously dragging out a Topic to the point of complete tedium, I'll end my contribution to you, in regards to this specific topic.

I'm sorry IS MISE, you have no idea of what type of F/A training police in this country receive. Neither the content; the duration, or the qualifying standards they're required to reach. Nor do you know the intervals of time, before they're required to re-qualify, nor the standard they must attain. Notwithstanding the amount of training and time dedicated to the large number of 'live fire' 'Judgemental Shooting' serials.

If you did, much of what you've said would've been far more measured, and more factual in its censure, rather then these wild, unsubstantiated statements you've made herein. Any fair criticism, and I'd most likely agree with you.

No doubt there are deficiencies in police training, as there is in all types of formal instruction and tuition. But you Sir, are unable to correctly identify precisely what those inadequacy's are. Simply because you don't know, nor does your daughter, I say with respect.

The fact you've declined to identify exactly where it was (the Police Department) your daughter provided this 'F/A training', is most bizarre. After all its not a security issue IS MISE, and relevant it most definitely is.

In conclusion, I don't wish to be seen as being rude to you, a gentleman of 83 years. But your credibility is stretched beyond belief as far as I'm concerned. Your own level of knowledge relating to Police Firearms Training and Officer Survival Strategies and Tactics; And the peculiar antecedents of your daughter's 'alleged' F/A training of Police, is all rather sad. Especially for a old 3RAR veteran like you IS MISE, of whom I have nothing but respect.

Good, now we can get back on topic.

An open letter to the PM and Deputy PM.

Mr. Turnbull and Mr. Joyce.

You both have had a lot to say about Pauline Hanson's call for a halt to Islam immigration, yet aside from saying she is crazy yo have said nothing. You have not put one reason forward as to why you oppose such action. Do you not think it reasonable that the public should expect you to have reasons and for you to state those reasons. I would like to know why you object to this move. Is it because you are afraid that local muslims might object and riot, or that you may get personal threats, or do you think muslim nations may reduce or curtail some trade with us? Do you think or hope appeasement will eventually prevail?

If that is the case, I ask how many terrorist attacks will it take to change your mind? How many Australians need to die before you take action to reduce the risk. How many terrorist attacks or how large do they have to be? Obviously bigger than Bali, as that did not premote any action.

Finally I ask, Given that you oppose stopping muslim immigration, what are your plans to curtail or reduce the risk to Australians from terrorist attack. Or do you just accept the increasing risk as the numbers of muslims increase.

Dear Banjo,

Did you see 60 Minutes tonight?

The Government has the problem (as you see it)
well under control. The people that are being
accepted from these trouble spots are the most
vulnerable (predominantly Christians) and they
are all thoroughly "vetted" by the authorities.
Your fear is totally not justified.

Dear Josephus,

I have not personally met any radical extremists of any
religion.

Have you?

Foxy,

"The Government has the problem (as you see it)
well under control...."

Ha-ha, know any more funnies?

Foxy,
Yes on several occasions including Kaiser Trad. We must engage with them without fear and challenge their beliefs while we still have freedom of expression. Trad was evasive and did not want to debate his beliefs. Though he wrote many articles denouncing our charities, education and laws.
I believe his daughters have softened his views as they mature in Australia.

Dear Josephus,

And how great is that.

It just goes to show that children can influence their
parents for the better after all.

Glad to hear something positive and by all means
keep on inter-acting.

Dear Is Mise,

Your sense of humour is rather subjective.
(Putting it politely).

I'm sure that you can amuse yourself in your
usual way - you don't need anyone to help you.

Foxy you constantly tell us the Koran is not to blame for the violence within Islam. PLEASE identify just what is motivating and causing some of its followers to murder in the name of Allah. Until we get to the cause we cannot change the effect. HOW do you stop radicalization?

Worth reading, virtue-signalling 'White Knights' are definitely not 'do gooders',

"The Muslim world wants White Knights, not critics

When white men themselves defend Islam, it signals a triumph for the Muslims, that they have turned the West to their way of thinking. To put it bluntly, those Western folks have seen the light, the “hidayah” that Allah shows to those He wishes to guide to His path.
...
There is a simple reason why most Muslims prefer their White Knights instead of their critics: They believe that Islam is perfect and infallible.

Most Muslims believe that Islam as a religion can never be faulted for anything, and instead the fault lies with the way believers practise it. This means that it is the “moderates” who are not practising Islam the way it is meant to, by cherry-picking verses of the Quran and the Hadith, and by not taking holy texts literally."

www.themalaymailonline.com/opinion/zurairi-ar/article/the-muslim-world-wants-white-knights-not-critics

Foxy: I have not personally met any radical extremists of any
religion.

Obviously. You are still here.

I have "Southern Baptists, Charismatics, JW's, & a few moslims, other than those that profess to be Moderate, for the time being.

A practising Muslim group in Sydney is calling for the murder of apostates from the religion.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/34811965/hizb-ut-tahrir-islamic-group-in-australia-calls-for-ex-muslims-to-be-executed/

Dear Josephus,

The following link may help towards understanding
some of the issues involved:

http://www.quora.com/Why-are-people-reluctant-to-blame-Islam-for-terrorism

Josephus,

That must be some of that false news that we are hearing about,
I really can't believe that followers of the Prophet (PBWH) could even think such a thing let alone utter such a dire threat.

Perhaps Foxy can explain why such a mistake has been made and how the media have been fooled into reporting something that is so at variance with the true spirit of The Religion of Peace?

Dear Is Mise,

Islam does not promote violence or peace. Islam is just
a religion and like every religion in the world it
depends on what people bring to it. If you're a violent
person, pathologically sick, your Islam, Judaism,
Christianity, Hinduism, is going to be violent. There
are marauding monks in Myanmar slaughtering women and
children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not.
Take a look at what certain people have done in the name
of their religions. People are violent or peaceful and
that often depends on their politics, their social world,
the ways that they see their communities and who their
enemies are. Religions are big and diverse and people get
out of them what they bring into them.

Good on ya, Foxy!!

We knew that you'd rise to the occasion.

Who to believe, OLO's Foxy who admits that she is ignorant of the Koran and says to take her beliefs on trust, or experts like Ali A. Rizvi, Pakistani-Canadian author of 'The Atheist Muslim: A Journey from Religion to Reason'?

Maybe rely on one's commonsense to guide,

An Open Letter to Moderate Muslims
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

"Ali A. Rizvi grew up in Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan before moving to Canada and the United States when he was 24. Rizvi has been writing extensively about secularism in the Muslim world for several years, contributing to The Huffington Post and other major media outlets like CNN. Rizvi is also a medical communications professional and a trained physician and oncologic pathologist."

What about this brave article too?
"To Counter ISIS Propaganda, Let’s Stop Treating the Quran as Infallible"
By Fathima Imra Nazeer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fathima-imra-nazeer/how-to-defeat-isis_b_5871532.html

Very interesting, Foxy, but how can we be sure, that as a good, moderate Muslim, he is not lying?

A post over on Australian Hunting Net,

"Quote
Those who are guilty of apostasy from (or leaving) Islam are to be executed.

Quote
Also at the meeting was his friend, who fled Bangladesh after he was put on a death list for criticising Islam.

So they want people who got free of the cult to be killed, and I guess they want me dead for calling it a cult.
This is the future they strive for and here it comes, time for people to pull their heads out of the sand."

Dear Is Mise,

The facts speak for themselves.

How many Muslims actually commit violence?

The majority don't.

Perhaps the *White Knights could have some consideration for migrants who have escaped totalitarian regimes and noxious creeds,

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/34811965/hizb-ut-tahrir-islamic-group-in-australia-calls-for-ex-muslims-to-be-executed/#page1

Maybe the group will be banned, unlikely, but what about the adherents who remain in the democracy they hate?

BTW, what better reason for finally getting rid of that s18C censorship of freed speech?

*White Knights
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/opinion/zurairi-ar/article/the-muslim-world-wants-white-knights-not-critics

Meanwhile in a shocked but steadfast UK, the origin of those 'Whites' so despised by Australian leftists, PM Theresa May stated in Parliament that the London terrorist was "inspired by Islamist ideology".

Earlier this year, the public-funded SBS, gave many columns to a petition from "a group of high-profile Australian Muslim women" against Hirsi Ali's upcoming speaking tour to Australia. The SBS report repeatedly referred to 'high-profile Muslim women writers, academics and activists'.

Yet Hirsi Ali only wants to reform Islam.

The facts speak for themselves.

How many Nazis actually committed violence?

The majority did n't.

great logic for a facist ideology

Dear runner,

How about this ideology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

It is well known it only takes 5% of a radical movement to overtake a society. Eg. Communism, Nazism, Islam. Foxy stands with the cheer leaders proclaiming "Islam is Peace" while the thugs from within the religion create havoc.

Islam in the Continent of South Africa have successfully overthrown societies because the thugs have terrorised the people into submission.

Foxy I suggest you read the quotes shown in the news item, they are from the Koran. The young men fled to Australia to escape being murdered by Islam only to find they confront the same evil here in Australia. Stop praising good Muslims and get to the heart of what is radicalizing people within the religion. Stop pretending it is not the Koran, when the Koran clearly defines what is to happen to apostates.

Foxy, Where in the teachings of Christ does he encourage violence to unbelievers? Where does he teach murder to apostates. The History recorded against Christians is not supported by the teachings of Christ or the text of the New Testament. They were a barbaric people following their passions. The History of Islam is supported by the teachings of Mohamed. Get the facts correct.

You are loosing your argument and have no idea how to stop radicalization of those coming from middle class Islamic societies. Read the background of those involved in 9/11.

Dear Josephus,

We often hear conflicting moral teachings from
our religious leaders. Many claim to have the
true message of God or the true message of Christianity.
We hear about "Christian values" or "God's will" or
"The Bible says" or "Jesus says" How can we tell who
is interpreting the Bible with true understanding and
who is consciously or unconsciously merely using it to
serve their own ends?

As I stated earlier Islam is just a religion and like
every religion in the world it depends on what you bring
to it. If you are a violent or hateful person your religion
is going to be violent. People are violent or peaceful and
that depends on their politics, their social world, the
ways that they see their communities. Religions are big and
diverse and people get out of them what they bring into
them. The problems in Islam are relatively recent - and
Christianity also has a lot to answer. I am a Christian
and I try to practice respect for all persons everywhere.

You of course are free to practice your religion in whatever
way you see fit. I prefer a doctrine of love and forgiveness.
Some people prefer one filled with prejudice and hate.

Note: Here is a current ruling on apostasy in Islam.

https://islamqa.info/en/20327

This is a current ruling on apostasy with it's palaver. You could never criticize or leave the religion without being murdered. For those serious about understanding Islam read the whole article.

Foxy, what a head in the sand world view! Because I expose not what people bring to the religion; but what people are taught by the religion I practise prejudice and hate, according to you. To quote the current teachings and practises of Islam I am peddling prejudice and hate. You have no answer to those indoctrinated in Islam to murder kafir. You make no contribution to the problems faced by innocent citizens attacked in the name of Allah. You fail to make persons accept responsibility for their behaviour. If we are to defend the right of people to accept ideas, we must also have the right to challenge those ideas.

https://islamqa.info/en/20327

Foxy,

Read the Koran and then comment on it.

Dear Josephus and Is Mise,

I have made my views quite clear on this discussion.
If you were to read my posts again perhaps it may dawn
on you the points being made - try my post at the
beginning of page 7 for a start.
I've given links
as to why Islam cannot be blamed for violence (on
page 9).

Anyway, one final comment - we need to judge people
by their deeds not their claims. The people who
commit violence are a small minority on the fringes of
society. They do not represent the vast majority of
people. They came into the world as "blank sheets"
as every child does. But then their minds from an
early age were fashioned by frightening nonsense
preached by fanatical ideologues. The only way we
can attempt to solve this problem is to get the
Muslim Communities on side. To get their help in
attempting to solve this problem. We need to work
together - not exclude them out of the equation.

Anyway, as I've stated previously - go back and
read my posts. I see no point in repeating them
It would be counter-productive.

Fortunatley Foxy we have many ex women muslims who know much better than you and other leftist denialist. They have endured rape, circumcism, forced marriage all as a result of instructions from the Koran. Thankfully most muslims do not follow the teachings of Mohammed. Amazing how the privileged westernised women hate the teachings of Christ and excuse the teachings of Mohammed. Shows education does not necessarily make one a thinker.

Dear Josephus,

The following are for you:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/how-to-stop-radicalisation-of-australian-youth-20150423-1mrce3.html

http://theconversation.com/australias-response-to-youth-radicalisation-can-benefit-from-a-look-to-overseas-49492

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/how-australia-plans-to-stop-radicalisation-in-its-tracks-20151126-gl9evt.html

from Foxy's link 3 above

"Meanwhile, Victoria's May budget included $25 million over four years to counter violent extremism. Daniel Andrews also announced a $49 million anti-terror boost for Victoria Police."

Which includes the purchase of updated weapons for the Vic. police to handle the aptly named "Blackout" round.

Seems that the "Deradicalization Industry" is doing well.

it is our politicians that have sold out on Australia. If they had any courage when people were warning of Islamic immigration 25 years ago they would not of joined in with the leftist mockers who detested the normal family and Christianity so much that they were willing to embrace all ' diversity ' . Now people are debating useless deradicalisation programs while the political ideology of Islam marches on. Yep on the weekend we have the chief mufti saying those who leave the cult should be beheaded. Where is 18c when you need it? That's right its only to silence cartoonist and uni students.

The problems in Islam are relatively recent – and Christianity also has a lot to answer.

I supposed Christianity did about 400 years ago. This is the here & now. I don’t hear Christians screaming, “Kill the moslims! Kill the moslims! Kill the Apostates, Kill the Gays, Kill the Atheist” in great mobs in the streets.

Joesophus: To quote the current teachings and practises of Islam I am peddling prejudice and hate.

Yes, that’s strange. Moslims quote/believe in their koran & to be followed to the letter. Yet, if you point that out, you are prejudice. Eh!

Is Mise: Read the Koran and then comment on it.

I have suggested this but she is afraid she just might learn the truth.

Foxy: The people who commit violence are a small minority on the fringes of society.

Maybe be so, for the moment. Untill they reach greater than 4%.

Foxy: They do not represent the vast majority of people.

Maybe be so, outwardly. They do support them in spirit, as seen every time there is an atrocity. Waving Banners, Street Parades in support, Placards stating support. All this from your “Moderate moslim. Have you seen any of the Demonstrations in Luton, Manchester, London, Birmingham lately or do you purposely not see these moslim Demonstrations. Even the Queen has been “Ordered” to Convert or leave Britain.

Is Mise: "Meanwhile, Victoria's May budget included $25 million over four years to counter violent extremism. Daniel Andrews also announced a $49 million anti-terror boost for Victoria Police."

Are you suggesting that $74 million could have been put to better use if they didn’t have to carter for moderate moslims & Lone Wolves leaving the Pack to do a damage to innocent civilians? Tut, tut. They could build a really good mosque for that.

Runner: Where is 18c when you need it?

Only to be used against White Anglo Saxon Males.

Foxy,
I have read all your links. It would appear you have not picked up on terms like Islam, Muslim and ISIS in the articles. Do these terms refer to a religious ideology? Does ISIS claim to be religious caliphate? Is ISIS merely a group of irreligious thugs without any reference to Allah or any claim to the authority of the Koran?

The best understanding of Islam is evaluate those countries where Islam rules the people. Nice Muslims living in Western society are not representative of how Islam works in reality.

If one wants to follow the teachings of a war Lord who murdered thousands, raped captive woman, and practised paedophilia it is evidence some of his admirers will want to achieve his heroic status. You might want to pretend he is Mr. Nice guy, and those that follow his teachings are model citizens.

Dear Josephus,

I have written on the topic of fundamentalists and
Islam.
We may never understand
what motivates Muslim militants. Humanly speaking
the future appears bleak for the Middle East and
much of the Muslim World. However as I've stated
repeatedly - I do not believe in stereotyping all
Muslims.
I have nothing further to add.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Foxy: We may never understand what motivates Muslim militants.

No. You speak for yourself. You don't want to understand.

You only want to see the Flowers. Those flowers are grown in dirt. The flower, itself, looks nice but it dies & turns into dirt again very quickly.

I, & most of the people on here, know exactly what motivates moslim militants. It's islam, the koran & the hadiths.

Dear Jayb,

I have more faith than you not only on the people
who post here but on Australians in general who
can tell the difference between the sheep and the
goats. And will ignore the siren call of demogogues
and false ideologues.

Some of the really ill-advised and tragic US foreign policy is reputed to have been based on the 2,400 year old myth that 'the Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend'.

The Leftists are trenchant critics of US foreign policy and most likely would agree with the above.

Yet the same self-loathing Leftists allow their hatred of 'Whites' - the 'white' Settlement of Australia - to convince themselves of the necessity for an overarching policy of multicultural 'diversity' to dilute and one day extinguish any remaining vestiges of 'White' presence.

-An 'Open Door' policy with large scale immigration from cultures and traditions as opposite as possible, preferably oppositional and adversarial, to tear down the British inheritance so despised by Leftists.

What hope then of trying to convince Leftists (they are not the previous Left by any stretch of the imagination) of the need for immigration policy to have any concern or consideration for the needs, aspirations and wishes of the Australian population at all?

From 2009 news report, UK leftists in action,
"Labour wanted mass immigration to make UK more multicultural, says former adviser
Labour threw open Britain's borders to mass immigration to help socially engineer a "truly multicultural" country, a former Government adviser has revealed.

The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.
He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".

As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants.
Critics said the revelations showed a "conspiracy" within Government to impose mass immigration for "cynical" political reasons."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Foxy: the people who post here but on Australians in general who can tell the difference between the sheep and the goats.

That's exactly what I was saying

Most posters on here are neither Sheep, who follow slavishly along with any "Feel Good Lefty Green view," or Goats who are led to the slaughter by Feel Good Lefty Green views, or to get screwed (depending on your Religion.) That is why we have serious misgivings about the increase in Islam in Australia. We see the need for it to be severely curtailed for the future safety of Australians who are not, & don't want to be forced to be Islamic.

You & your ilk are very much in the Vocal Minority in Australia fortunately.

Dear Jayb,

We'll see at the next election as to what
most Australians really think and feel.