We get much sanctamonious preaching on OLO from animal libbers,
about what should and could be done, alot of it pure dreamer
stuff.

How many of these people take milk in their coffee, tea or
cereal? Yet they would be aware that poor old Mama cow had
her baby ripped off her as a 1-2 day old, to satisfy their
selfish desires for milk. Why should I not call these
people hypocrites?

Yabby

Thats easy.

None!

Again you have got it all wrong because you dont listen. Or again you try to mislead the public. Nice try!
The People on the OLO are NOT Animal Libbers
Bar I think I saw three.
You wont get many libbers answer you I dont think.
They are on a higher moral ground to main stream ordinary people.
Didnt you know that Yabby.? You cant reason or speak to these people.
Main stream people are what I have seen on the forum.
That mostly includes the first post opended by Katrina.

Trouble is Yabby See how they run when the main stream people comment.
Voiceless have made some good moves to promote free range farms so you cant brand them as libbers either.
I know some people are trying but Brion Shermann and his family are main stream.
Its jolly good to see. RSPCA are main stream. Not Animal Liberation
People are actually working to find alternatives.
You of course are trying to block those people.

But to be fair I will answer your question Yabby.> How many Animal Libbers drink milk meat @

None or very few.

Animal liberation members that are extreme or vegans veg, would be highly offended that you would even suggest such a thing.!

I think you are trying to divert the attention from the other forum you old fox and brand main stream people as all animal libbers.

Your consistant I will give you that much.

Extreme people who will not discuss better methods and do more harm to animal welfare than good.

Good Luck you will have earned your thread if they come on mate.

Taryn, how you see yourself and how others see you are sometimes
not the same.

I notice that you avoided answering the question wether you drink
milk or not, as I had expected :)

Yabby, I have been drinking soy milk for the last 10 years.

I eat cheese, so perhaps I am one of the hypocrites then.

Although, like TarynW says, I also don't see myself as an animal libber. I don't generally agree with animal libbers.

Yabby
The Answer To Your Question is on the main stream forum where I belong.

I dont wish people to mix me up with libbers.

However i will leave you with this thought for the day.

I would much rather have a animal libber to dinner than a cruel live Animal Exporter or Intensive Farmer.

When You Look at it like that they certainly are on a higher moral ground.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat or drinking milk providing its done properly . Most ordinary folk do.

Ban Intensive Farming of Dairy Cattle and Feed Lots.

Insist on Free Range and enjoy your milk and meat eggs pork.

Oh and enjoy your trip but it doesnt look like being too Halal with your travelling partner.

Yes, as a free range farmer I know only too well that all that talk does not translate into action.

I am a farmer that cares deeply for animal welfare and I am also a realist. People donate to all sorts of 'causes' to appease their consciences then go out and buy the cheapest food they can. Probably don’t even look at the labels, just the price tag.

Lets take the example of milk. Yes yabby is right about the calves being taken at 1- 2 days. The law says they must have colostrums first! What a joke.

Anyway, go in and buy the cheap Woolworths or Coles brand. That act supports these controlling giants that beat down the price farmers get for their milk, the follow on effect? Less money for the care of their animals and you are a contributing factor. But you save money that you can donate to an animal welfare cause!

Yes, hypocrites.

pigfarmer, can you put some more info on the milk stuff on the animal welfare thread please.

When I was a kid it was a certain state government minister with large dairy interests who was restructuring the dairy industry to suit his own needs rather than retailers.

I suspect Yabby may have meant animal welfare supporters in his question. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At a guess most of us do a juggling act just as farmers have to do. There is a balance we all have to find between best practice and what we can afford. The happy times are when the two coincide (Scouts suggestion of the way to kill a fish coincides with a means to get better tasting fish meat).

Yabby, some will be more hypocritical than others but most are trying to find the best balance we can. If by spending more I can make a difference I will generally do so but I'm not interested in spending extra for a fancy label or emotive marketing which does not actually make anything better.

Part of the problem is working our way through the issues to try and work out what is marketing hype and what is making a difference.

R0bert

No can do robert. All finished with that thread.

It would be nice if people bothered to learn a little about the causes they are supporting before they make uninformed statements about peoples livlihoods. A perfect example: if you want to condemn organics at least find out what the word means. Look hard at their own actions before condemning everyone else.

By looking at the label, I meant are they caged eggs, is made from an imported product from a country that does not have acceptable animal welfare standards in place etc.

So Taryn, let me get this straight. You seem to be saying that you
have no problem with ripping calves from their mums at a couple of
days old, as long as those cows can go outdoors etc. Your milk
supply comes first?

Pigfarmer, the fundamentals of the Coles/Woolies saga with milk,
is exactly why so many WA farmers support the live sheep trade.

Fact is that the sheepmeat industry in WA is a rather backward
affair, with a virtual monopoly existing. The moment it doesent
rain, its not rocket science to know that farmers have to sell,
no matter what. If there are hardly any companies competing, it
becomes a nightmare. Thats why WA farmers consistantly get well
below their ES brothers for their mutton. In late July-early
August, when the writing was on the wall, many farmers were
forced to accept 15-18$ for ewes, or 70c a kg carcass weight,
for lack of competition. At the same time live shippers and
even a few ewes were selling for 50-60$, if you could get them
on a boat.

The State Govt here does not seem to give a hoot. Their electors
are in the city, end of story. One company offered to spend
40 million on another works, the Govt would hardly lift its finger
to give them a call.

So farmers overwhelmingly back the live sheep trade, its their
only option given the diabolical situation that exists here.

I do understand were you are coming from yabby. I attend a lot of sheep sales here on the New England and see ewes go for $5 or sometimes no one even wants them. “Not filling ships” is the reason around here for low prices. I admit, my distaste for live export is an emotional one. I will also admit that I am not up to date with improvements in conditions and will go back and look at some of your links. Do animal libbers understand that when a farm animal has no monetary value little will be done for it. Before they all jump on that comment – if a ewe is worth $5, is the farmer going call the vet if its injured? Suppliment its feed thru winter? Etc etc That’s just the reality of it.

There are days when you just wonder if its all worth it. I stick my neck out for free range so that people can see what it is all about. I even invite them to visit the farm. Its usually some ‘do gooder’ city slicker who thinks they know more about pig welfare than I do in a pathetic attempt to ‘catch me out’ on the other end of the phone. They use animal welfare as an outlet for their stupid ego, or bored housewifes stuck at home with the kids (look out tamyn has just ripped that kid off the tit and is racing for the keyboard) Yes, most calls are from woman. Why are they so intent on damaging farmers that are trying to do the right thing? It can only have the reverse effect of what they are saying they are trying to achieve.

"(look out tamyn has just ripped that kid off the tit and is racing for the keyboard)"

ROFL

" Yes, most calls are from woman. Why are they so intent on damaging farmers that are trying to do the right thing? "

I wonder if its just the so called motherly fuzzy feelings, ie
plenty of oxytocin showing itself. The problem is, there are large
differences between species and even within species. A cute little
lamb is really cute, but a thumping big wether, charging full
on at a gate, with far more energy then brains, as it kills itself
in the process, is hard to explain to those who have never worked
with sheep. A mob of freshly shorn wethers, all pushing in one
direction in the yards, can easily squash a couple, bend gates etc.

On the live sheep debate, I really do try and use rational thinking
to weigh it all up, also with uptodate information. I saw how Peta
distorted the mulesing debate, they just never let accurate information get in the way of a good story, it seems.

Most farmers that I have discussed it with, want stock treated humanely, but they also know that sheep behave a little differently
to household pets.

You are correct about the value thinggy. I saw that here this last
winter, when it simply didn't rain. The smart guys quickly sold
some shippers and with that money could buy extra grain to feed the
rest of the flock.

I actually love animals. My two sheepdogs would be the only ones
around here, with their own beanbags near the fire :) But I try
to judge each situation and species separately. In your situation,
you know far more about pigs then me, so I would not comment on
how you farm them. I think alot of city people have watched "Babe"
and relate to pigs on those terms, but I do know that wild pigs
can be savage killers too. Its not all like those Hollywood movies
show it.

Funny you should say that yabby. I just last night watched Babe - pig in the city, with my young grandson. I have avoided watching these movies in the past because I had heard adults say "oh I cried when I watched Babe. Its so sad"

What is sad is that they have completely forgotten that this is a fictional kids movie.

"I want my mum!" If that sow had of been able to get out of her pen and away from her piglets, she would have been long gone before then!
Sows wean their piglets quite young naturally and can be quite aggressive in getting that message across to them.

I appreciated my grandsons comment "that lady is silly. You dont take pigs to the shops" All thru the movie he kept commenting, 'but pigs dont do this or that, runner ducks dont fly' At least he is in touch with reality. More than I can so for a few 'animal welfare' people I know.

Yes, Babe is a cute kids story. Nothing more.

I'm sure that the animal libbers mean well, but to me their posts
show a clear lack of knowledge, when it comes to the behaviour
of various other species. They are not all the same and they
are not all just like humans. What I see from the various
groups is lots of talk and playing on the internet, many of
them asking for funding, but very little results.

I think change will come from farmers themselves and from a %
of consumers who think beyond their wallets, which admittedly
is perhaps 20%, going by cage egg sales. But its a start.
I like the concept of growers markets, to bypass the major
distribution chains and their pressure for ever cheaper
commodity chains, to increase their bottom lines. Thats
what is responsible for alot of factory farming.

In the sheep industry there are also huge changes going on,
as it sinks in that the wool industry is slowly heading to
becoming a niche industry and the sheep meat industry, which
used to be a byproduct, takes over as the main income stream
for many growers. Personally I get huge satisfaction in seeing
now thousands of animals, free from all that wool, no shearers,
no blowflies, much happier and contented sheep! I'm also
proud to have been involved in that in a real sense for a number of
years, so making a difference, not just talking about it
on the internet.

The next thing to address is to bring the sheep meat processing
industry in WA up to standard, at the moment its a pretty backward
affair. So I'm involved with that too, but certainly not through
any so called animal welfare groups :)

It will happen, but it takes time, lots of pushing and shoving
etc. At the present time they have yet to show that they can
efficiently process the 3.5 million sheep slaughtered here,
whilst paying farmers a reasonable return for their product.
They still have the mentality that sheepmeat is a byproduct,
that we are lucky we don't have to shoot them in the paddock.

I really feel that these tear away welfare groups just prey on peoples emotions. I think they count on people to have little idea of the big picture. Lets face it, they wouldn’t get much support otherwise.

The well informed person that stands up for what they believe in is not what I call an animal libber. It’s the kind that get involved out of some need for control that worry me. They usually start their sentences with ‘ Iam the head of, or I am the CEO of, or I am the founder of….) Just full of their own self importance, the causes they claim to be fighting for are just a vehicle. The other is the follower, the kind that thinks people will like them, karma will be kind to them, if they protest against this or that.

That’s why I get so protective. When ‘doubtful’ organisations decide they will hitch a ride on something that is popular at the time, say free range, trying to give themselves credibility. They wont for one second acknowledge, or care, about the harm they may cause in the process, just feeding their own egos.

If I didn’t feel so passionately about the way I farm my animals and care for their welfare, I would have reverted this place to intensive farming by now. That’s all the good these do gooders do. You certainly wouldnt put up with all their crap for the money! Then I could hide behind the APL and the Codes

I think that there are all sorts of people with all sorts of
motivations out there. Some want control, some perhaps are simply
searching for a cause to occupy themselves with. Alot seem
to me to be people wearing their hearts on their sleeves, but not
really having an in depth understanding of what they are on about.

At the end of the day, in my experience, reason will prevail.
So if people make claims and their information is wrong or years
old, eventually that will come to the surface.

I think that the best that you can do is focus on your animals and
on your customers and ways to make your little supply chain work,
if possible with other pig farmers who want to join you.

Yes, lots of thing about to happen with free range farming and I have been working on that (hence all the time near the computer)

A big obstacle for free range farmers is the marketing side but soon there will be an option for them to join forces with other like minded farmers all under the same standard and market their product under one name with assistance from the administrating body. Its just about to be launched and I believe it will be just what consumers are looking for.

Things happen for a reason. I was brought into the forum without my knowledge, the time I have spent here has taught me plenty about animal welfare groups. It has also caused a chain reaction that has proved to be priceless!

Yabby

Would have thought, answer to that Question might be Obvious, even to you.

Nobody wants to get involved with this women who discredits organisations.

Nobody does business like that.

This person wants some attention.

See what we can do.

Dangerous and self destructive. Nil concern for Fellow Farmers or Free Range.

The Comments are tacky, Cheap and Common Just Like Your discusting Remarks about Taryn.

No profeshional or even a lady! would stoop so low.

We already estasblished your no gentleman.

People find their own levels and you too have found yours.

You have brought such shame to your industries.

If she really thinks the RSPCA are happy with her she should think again.

Its important that the public know that Animal Libbers and Animals Australia refused! to support her.

She should! have been supported.

All! Free Range Farmers should be supported.

She had every! right to be angry. Just dont shoot the messanger.ah Yabby , yup!


Authority was given

Otherwise why did she contact the office and send it? Ah Yabby? Yup!

No you wouldnt know would you?

As for any information being old Yabby, what about the AFIC media release put out working in conjuction against live exports. Thats not! old. Ah?

You two have said a lot of things. This woman pig farmer has said that the organisation was not working with other animal welfare organisations

All you both had to do, and I am sure! you did was click on to
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=hkm&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU
or here
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

I note you have not said one word about the MOU with AFIC

Thats clear proof that these people work also with the Islamic Leaders and others in Australia and overseas to promote Free Range Farms.

Would you like me to invite them to this forum to set a few things straight?
After all you are both defaming them! as well working with the organisation.

Who better To understand Halal Meats and Live Exports Yabby.
May I ask.?

Oh Of course I forgot Yabby And A women Pig Farmer.

See you there.

?? What are you raving about?

I think you have jumped into the wrong forum. No one here is talking about you or the RSPCA or Muslims. Just hypocritical animal libbers. [Deleted for flaming.]

Antje, I'm not really sure what you are getting your knickers
in a twist about there, makes no sense to me.

As to live exports, I'd say those who know most about them
are the West Australians involved and the buyers in the Middle
East. Don't you worry about that :)

I am not animal liberation

Nor others working to Promote Free Range, improve animal welfare.

Its not just WA that are exporting live animals, its national.

We are working with middle East and others and there are many not! against opening more plants in Australia.

Mark Vailes job really -however!


You middle men are the ones against it for your trade dollars!

Read the AFIC media realese!

We are against out tax money going overseas to build when it should be spent building here!.


Animal liberation are also a dedicted group of people.

We support them in almost! every way other than their refusal to go that one step futher and promote Free Range Farmers and open more plants.

What you have got then are people raising funds for animals for no benefit to those same animals.[ Sue if you wish Glenyce]

Pig Farmers is right. Some of these people are working to raise funds and for their own agenda.

Others are led around by the nose of PETA. If you do not support Free Range farmers then you are indeed yup A hypocrite because 96 percent of the public eat meat.


We are the first to open a support Free Range Farmers Support Standing up to the extreme Animal Libbers, that mean well but do so much damage.

Piggerys such as the one that Amanda Vanstone has shares in is a utter disgrace!

Pigs are very intellegent . Shame

Shame on our Government and why? has the Australian people not insisted on her resignation as a representive of this country?

Well Amanda you know about it now!~ Dont you? what are You! doing about it?

Will you? Amanda speak out? Get your close buddies to change the one hundred year old laws for Animal Welfare Amanda.?

Introduce some proper codes of common decency practise and close down all the hell holes that this intensive farming

Pllleeeaase dont give us the usual garb about so called codes of practise.

Cruel is Cruel.

Why dont you set an example buy reforming that place of yours to Free Range Amanda?

Slow down Antje (?) Honestly, I am having a hard time following what you are talking about. I did get the Amanda Vanstone part though.

Unfortunately, Amanda Vanstone is operating within the law. Even the RSPCA had to admit that. She is just one of many intensive piggeries that make live export look like a cruise on the Fairstar.

Did you lodge a submission about the draft code of practice (pigs) ? I wonder how many people even filled in the questionnaire that was required. They asked so many questions about pigs that I feel people were scared off (some just because they realised they knew nothing at all about what they were fighting for)

People like amanda aren't going to convert to free range. Its labour intensive and I dont see her mucking out straw and pig poo, carting feed out to paddocks, covering farrowing sows with hutches etc. She'd have to hire someone and that would cut into the profits.

"You middle men are the ones against it for your trade dollars!"

Umm not sure who you think is a middle man here Antje, certainly
not me. Personally I don't even sell to the live trade as I don't
produce merino wethers. That does not mean I am not fully aware
of how critical income from the live trade is for WA farmers,
given the backward meat industry here. Many friends of mine
depend on that extra income to feed their families.

Most of those sheep have in fact had a pretty good life in sheep
terms. Outdoors for virtually all their lives, wethers do little
but chew grass and admire the scenery. They even had their moms
look after them as lambs, no cruel removal from mom as a 2 day old.

By the time they are 2-3 years old they are thumping big sheep
that could easily knock you arse over tit if they decided to.
A couple of weeks on a boat, looking at the bigger scheme of things,
whilst they gain weight, is for me just not an issue. There are
plenty of animal welfare issues that are huge, this is not one
of them.

"We are against out tax money going overseas to build when it should be spent building here!."

Your tax money is not spent building plants overseas, but certainly
advising how to build better plants, where animal welfare becomes
an issue. Read some of the vet reports from over there, as to
what they actually do. As your contribution is perhaps 3c, I don't
think you have a point. There are many things that the federal Govt
spends money on, that I don't agree with, the same with all of us

Yabby...

I feel you only started this thread to take away from the other 2 threads by Scout and Celivia..

You cannot discredit the majority of posters on there as 'hypocrites'.
Even if they arent farmers and the like..
Some pple such as myself are consumers who go to their local supermarket every week and buy meat eggs and milk and by doing so by virtue of that practice alone, have a say in and become part of this whole issue.
As much as youd like to make it about farmers and producers in general that doesnt mean to say that the general consumer is not interested in and doesnt know what theyre talking about from theyre own perspective.
It is the consumer who is the one person in this whole debate who is the in the position of greatest power..they speak amongst themselves ,swap ideas and it is they who generate the dollar in the community and direct where and how it is spent.

You just cant assume that we are all ignorant of the world around us.
'Ripping kids off tits' is a derogatory statement about women in general...PG is a 'woman'and I ,Ozkiddy, use that term very loosely,
as a grandmother you ought to be ashamed of your vulgar potty mouth.
No self respect.Yes Lee, Im speaking to you.|:

You ought to feel very proud of the way you have conducted yourself on OLO and your cold hearted attacks on good caring pple.

That last post was mean to read not PG but PF ie Pigfarmer..Id hate that to be lost her.

pigfarmer, can I ask you a silly/cityslicker's question?

My husband and I were discussing free range pig farms- he said that most intensive pigfarmers wouldn't want to convert to free range mainly because the removal of pig poo (I called it manure)is too hard labour and the damage they do to the ground puts farmers off.

I know there is the problem about pig manure- that it can't be used like other forms of manure.

Do you find this a big problem in your free range farm- and what do you do with the 'pig poo'? Is it good for anything?

I've read somewhere that it could be used in the production of biodiesel- is that a prospect?

How do you cope with clearing and getting rid of the poo and the damage to the ground?

However ignorant my questions may seem *blush*, I am genuinely interested in the answers :)

I would have asked this in the animal welfare thread but I take it you won't visit this thread anymore.
Hope yabby doesn't mind if this is off-topic.

I for one would like to say how deeply sorry that Wendy is no longer posting on OLO.

She bought some wonderful and vigorous debate to all the animal issues discussed on here..without pple like Wendy in the world and her obvious love and passion for animals the world becomes a much poorer place and animals are the biggest losers..

I feel she was not appreciated by some and her value not seen..dismissed as a 'keyboard activist'...

The attempts by some to discredit her did not mean she gave up her drive and only strengthens her resolve..for pple who truly love animals never lose sight or focus of the real and important issue..

The only 'crime ' she committed was she loved animals too much and she became emotinally torn because of it.

I truly miss Wendy and I have the utmost disgust for those who made it their 'thing' to contemptously trample on her good intentions and discredit every thing she ever said or tried to do.
[Deleted for flaming. Poster suspended.]

Girls, I’m so flattered that you miss me.

Ozkiddy – get over it. Maybe its my ‘redneck’ ways but I don’t feel that comment was derogatory at all. What of yours? Missing wendy? I don’t believe that but if you go back a few posts she left you her phone number as said ring reverse charges.

Keyboard activist! Wish I had thought of that one!

Cilivia – Sorry, do you know how many phone calls I get asking what I do with the poo? Enough to give me attitude. But if you are really interested I will tell you. We compost every bit and use it as fertilizer on our crops. Cant get enough for our own needs let alone the demand from other farmers. Damage to the ground? Not here. We use cell grazing not just to look after our land but also to break worm cycles etc. Sustainable farming may be a term you have heard of? I would go on, but I don’t think you are that interested.

Quiz: Do you know why websites use forms for contact?

Answer: To trace IP addresses

Pigfarmer there is a post for you on "take it outside thread'

sorry kiddy - this is the only thread I have time for at the moment. If you want me to see it you will have to post here. Just not interested otherwise.

"You cannot discredit the majority of posters on there as 'hypocrites'."

Umm Ozgirl, I asked it as a valid question. Fact is if
you happily drink milk, despite Daisy's calf being ripped
off her at 2 days old, arn't you a bit of a hypocrite for
criticising the live trade?

PFs amusing comment was simply colourful language, but
extremely funny, as I could just visualise it:) Do you
girls have no sense of humour? Stop taking everything
so seriously! Perhaps us country kids are just more down
to earth about bodily parts, be they human or other
species. Hey, its all very natural you know.

Celivia, PF is correct, pig poo is great for all sorts
of things. A friend of mine used to generate his own
methane from it, which gave him electricity for his farm.

I actually still like the concept of straw/shelters for
raising pigs, as something between factory pigs and
free range pigs. By what I've seen, the pigs look pretty
happy in there, tearing around in the straw. The straw,
poo mix is later put back on the fields to grow grain
for pig food. The people I know who run a place like
that, say that its done away with most of the diseases,
antibiotics etc, that were part of factory farming.
So its a win-win all around really.

I think that more and more piggeries will move that way.
Just the difference in death rates between the two systems
is apparently quite dramatic.

You are right yabby - more and more farms are going to eco shelters and deep litter bedding. If some genius would come up with ways to convert existing pig sheds so they could be operated in this manner, I think a lot more farmers would convert to this more humane method of production.

No business is going to abandon sheds that could be worth millions and put their pigs out in the paddock. Give them a solution and things may change quickly. Instead of building new stalls to meet the new code, convert the sheds to group accomodation and deep litter bedding. Something for APL to invest in?

It works here because we had very shallow pits under the floors. We just pulled up the grating and filled it with straw.

Effluent (poo, urine & water) from intensive farms is very hard to manage and when sprayed out on pastures often does more damage than good because of the high nitrate content. Manure mixed with straw bedding starts composting in the sheds. If its done right, there is hardly even any odour from the pigs. Sure its harder to take out than liquid effluent, but the compost made from it is very benificial to the soil, unlike the liquid effluent.

Another huge benefit is the conservation of water. Not just what the compost does for the soil, but we no longer rely on 'flush tanks' to clean out under the pigs. Intensive piggeries uses massive amounts of water.

"No business is going to abandon sheds that could be worth millions and put their pigs out in the paddock"

Well funnily enough, thats exactly what these people did, which
surprised me at the time. But as they also have a grain farm,
the whole things kind of fits together as a neat package.

Those shelters are cheap as chips to buy, so no large capital
investment. They can also let them stay empty for a while between
batches, let the summer heat sterilise everything. Straw from
the grain is used as bedding etc. I came to the conclusion that
the best place to build a piggery, is perhaps in the middle
of a large grain farm!

I've since spoken to people who have worked in both and they say
the level of difference in diseases etc is quite dramatic, also
pig happiness.

I (very happily) stand corrected yabby. That’s true commitment. Do you know what they did with the sheds? I would love a few ideas on what we could use our older ones for.

Having never farmed intensively, I cannot do a before and after comparison. We just don’t have any disease. Yes, we vaccinate for the most common problems in case it is accidentally brought onto the property. I do know from other intensive farmers, that disease is a constant battle, thus the heavy use of antibiotics in feed for the majority of the pigs life. We do get mange in winter – probably because the pigs rarely use their wallows then.

Wether it is pigs, chickens or feed lots, animals kept in such close proximity in what is usually unsanitary conditions, breathing fecal dust, will be a haven for disease. Not to mention the lack of exercise, correct feed, sunshine etc that will weaken the animal and make it susceptible.

Being in a grain growing area is a huge benefit. We do grow some of our own and of course make the most of the straw. And it all ends up back on the land to grow more.

Happy pigs? Visitors to this farm are amazed when they see a group of 50 or so piglets go tearing through a paddock playing and chasing one another. They picture pigs as big lazy animals that just lay around in mud all day. ( or their own excrement in the case of intensive farms)

PF, AFAIK it just made business sense for them to move to shelters.
Those concrete buildings lack sunlight, pigs are on concrete,
lots of water too, so ideal for all sorts of bugs. The shelters
have sun streaming in and lots of dry heat, great for killing
all sorts of bugs.

I'd have to ask them next time I see them, what they did with
the old buildings. Sheds are always handy on farms, for all sorts
of things. When I sold my export business, I kept the building
and now have what every man dreams of, a huuuge shed :)

AFAIK they buy little piglets and raise them, but there are now
some problems with piglet supplies. I'm not sure why the industry
puts sows into intensive systems to have their litters, I once
heard that they have a habit of squashing their kids, but its
not my field.

I did mean a good use for the shed yabby ...

Sows squash their young and sometimes I think nature intended it to be that way.

The idea of farrowing crates is that the sow is held so snugly between the bars that she is forced to lay down very slowly, giving the piglets time to get out of the way. It also stops her from sliding down the wall of her pen when she goes to lay down. Thats were a lot of young get trapped. They still squash them though.

We have very few laid on piglets because the sows have heaps of room and deep straw.

Back on topic for a second.
Antje - I was just noticing that your keyboard has the same problem as wendys. You know the! problem. How coincedental is that?

Pig Farmer

You are aware Wendy no longer posts on this forum . That does not mean others will sit back and allow you to continue to destroy good people. You can ring the Queen if you like nobody really cares.
Your little hints that Wendy is dishonest will not be ignored.
Not by Wendy but those who know her.
I know this will come as a terrbly shock to you but we do have an office you know.
In that office we have a CEO of Pale her name is Antje.
We have campaign lady that would be me.
There are many members who come and volunteer their time to work towards live exports.
Nobody is paid and we have never fund raised.
Wendy pays for much out of her own pocket and refused us putting in for expences.
I note you were anti[very] live exports and now you are pro live exports after your new found friendship with Yabby.
That tells me you are and not serious about animal welfare.
Do not think for one moment you will drop your not so suttle hints that Wendy is less than honest and totally dedicatedto helping animals.
I was also here when your email came to this office and we had never! heard of you! before that!.
You contacted this! office we did not! contact you.!!
It was well before we were on this forum. Well Before Madam.
Wendy does not post here anymore so stop trying to defame people who are not around to defend themselves.
Some of us just want to get on working to improve animal welfare not listen to your spite.
There are many farmers very happy to work with the Free range Farmers support group and pale as well.
So just get on with your pig farm and stop trying to cause trouble.
Pale will continue their work to ban live exports despite your calls to everybody to defame us nobody really cares.
Most see it as it is.

Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:49 AM
Subject: [alqld] live export, cattle to mexico, Dr jailed, dumped cat, MLA shame,

DEATH SHIPS: ANGER GROWS AS SHEEP EXPORT TOLL HITS 40,000

Sept 21 - ABOUT 40,000 sheep died at sea as part of Australia's $700
million live animal export trade last year.

Concern about the number of deaths has prompted animal rights
advocates to prepare a global campaign against the practice, but the
Federal Government says the death rate is "reasonable".

A report from the West Australian Department of Agriculture and Food
said almost 40,000 sheep were lost at sea in 2005, up from 30,000
deaths in 2004.

A separate report to Federal Parliament covering the period from
November last year to May this year showed the death toll for sheep at
17,464 from 35 shipments to Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar,
the United Arab Emirates, Singapore and Bahrain.

On one 19-day voyage from Fremantle to Jeddah, 1804 sheep died out of
106,730 being transported. On another 27-day trip from Portland and
Devonport to Jebel Ali, Bahrain, Kuwait and Doha, 1683 of 71,309 sheep
died.

The RSPCA's president, Hugh Wirth, said a campaign would soon be
launched for a worldwide ban on the long-distance transport of animals
for slaughter.

The Agriculture Minister, Peter McGauran, said the report showed 99.17
per cent of sheep arrived at their destination alive.

"The percentage of stock losses is the best measure of the performance
of the livestock export industry, as they put the numbers into
perspective," Mr McGauran said.

"The livestock export industry and producer groups accept there are
legitimate community concerns about animal welfare, and they are
working with the Government and animal welfare groups to continually
improve their performance."

Dr Wirth said the mortality rate should not be the only measure of
animal welfare.

Phillip Hudson

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/09/20/1158431784440.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

DAIRY HEIFERS TO MEXICO A LIFELINE TO WA INDUSTRY

My observation about the keyboard was correct then. Thanks for verifying that Tamyn. So, all you girls sit around in a huddle at the pale ‘office’ do you. Do you all get together to think up this rubbish?

Let it go on public record that I have never picked up a phone and called PALE in my entire life. Your phone records ( and mine) should sort that lie out for you. And also for the public record, yes some people have rung the RSPCA for clarification of the .. in conj RSPCA QLD thing and it has been confirmed that, outside of live exports, PALE has no right at all to use the RSPCA name. In fact, I believe they have been told to cease immediately.

No one here has made mention of PALE until you just brought it up. You are doing just as good a job of defaming your own organization as wendy did. Its time to move on Tamyn before you do it even more damage.

Yes, campaign manager Tamyn, all your hard work is evident:

Live sheep exports up for year
Australia
Friday, 22 September 2006

Australian live sheep exports were bolstered during July as solid demand for Ramadan increased shipments, particularly to Saudi Arabia.

A total of 298,984 head were exported for the month, 15pc higher than the same period last year.

The value of July exports totalled A$21.8 million FOB – 22pc higher than in July 2005.

The average value of sheep exports in July totalled A$73/head FOB, an increase of $4/head FOB on both the June 2006 and July 2005 averages.

Live sheep exports for the first seven months of 2006 were 6pc up on the same period last year, at 1.9 million head.

With Ramadan commencing in late September and ending with the Eid il Fitr celebrations in late October, demand for Australian sheep has been reportedly strong through August and into September.

Demand should remain strong across the entire period of Ramadan and during the Eid il Fitr celebrations.

However, reports from the Middle East region suggest that there is continuing competition from cheaper sheep from alternative suppliers such as Somalia, with some concern from importers over the price of Australian sheep.

BTW I have always been anti live export, i am just tired of going around in circles with the same arguements. Just talking about it will achieve nothing. Like most things, it all comes down to price. This may be your salvation (if you can put a good spin on it and claim it as a victory)

MLA MANAGER QUITS OVER HACKING SCANDAL

Sept 22 - After almost a month-long investigation, a computer hacking
scandal engulfing Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA) has claimed its
first and perhaps only scalp.

Late last month, it was revealed MLA staff members had hacked into an
online poll on the National Livestock Identification System.

Today, the head of MLA's National Livestock Identification Unit,
Christian Mulders, has resigned.

ABC has confirmed Mr Mulders has resigned.

It is unclear whether he was directly involved in the poll tampering
or has taken the fall for others.

Disciplinary action has been taken against a number of other employees
but MLA managing director David Palmer has refused to be interviewed.

Australian Beef Association head Linda Hewitt, who raised the alarm
over the hacking scandal, remains deeply sceptical.

Cattle Council president Bill Bray says he is satisfied with MLA's
handling of the incident and work will now start to rebuild farmer
confidence in the peak body.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2006/s1746386.htm


The funds spent to promote live exports from the industry should stay in Australia.

The Howard Government must keep the publics funds to be spent here!

Yes the MLA and others are funded 50 50 percent from the industry and you! the tax payer.

The People say no to the cruel live export trade Mr Howard and No to your spending and sending our! public funds overseas.


The Public Say Ban Live Exports. So use some of our tax funds to build more abattoirs in Australia John Howard.
I will supply plenty of footage to the Australian People John Howard If I have to walk around Australia and door knock and invite the media and others to join.

You now have the Popes support John Howard Its its now official , Churches Are Resposible to stop Animal Cruelty.

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html
http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html

Your a lucky man Prime Minister. You have the Leaders of The Australian Federational Of Islamic Council Supporting slaughtering here in Australia and denouncing the cruelty of the unessary live animal export trade.

Now the Pope.

Sounds like a recipe for world peace.

Ban Live Exports John Howard

I have been lurking around the forum for a little while now. I was very interested in one particular arguement but before I could have a say it was squashed. Now that it seems to be back on the table, I would like to ask a question.

TarynW. As a representative of pale, do you think there is nothing wrong with posting someone elses private email to this forum?

You also made mention of the Pope. How is he now supporting the banning of live exports? Can you expand on that please?

First Of All I do Not think You have just! Come On This Forum.

Otherwise you would not make such a silly comment.

As for the Pope Sure.

I will get it put on a link so everybody can read it as soon as possible.

The Pope has spoken before about these matters
.
In the mean time why not read the information I already posted on Church Involvenment towards animal welfare.

You will not get me to comment on things that are now in the hands of lawyers Bob try as you may.

My concerns are to improve animal welfare.

Those of you that are against people speaking out about such matters must have something wrong with them, or something to hide.

Negative negative negative.

If I walk around all day and only get one person to put their name on a petition Bob, at least that is something.

Better than you trying to put me down because I care.

I should think from what I have seen others will need to have deep pockets

I will continue my work to help animals.

I am also starting some advertsing as soon as I can get some more people to help.

This is my own project Bob and I am very proud to have lots of people to come along and help with radio and newspaper adds.

Some of it is live exports and some basic every day domestic animals.

It is great to see so many interested.

So you want to start on trying to discreit me now as well do you?

I wouldnt.

My work with animals is something I care about deeply.


Yes pig farmer thats correct. That is why the WA co joint venture was done.

More need to follow in this wonderful example.

Thats doing something.

"The Public Say Ban Live Exports."

The public say no such thing. The public know little or nothing
about live exports and really don't seem to care. What they care
about is their pocket, thats why they still mostly buy battery eggs
etc. Meantime WA farmers, in deep trouble as it is, would lose well
over 100 million$ a year, money used to feed their families right now.

"So use some of our tax funds to build more abattoirs in Australia John Howard."

Umm we have a market economy here in Aus, last I noticed. Govts don't
build abattoirs, we are not is Russia or China. I doubt it you are
about to overthrow Australia's economic system Taryn. The few thousand $ that goes to animal welfare in the Middle East is well
spent. Farmers do more for animal welfare in the Middle East, then
so called animal welfare groups, who seem to spend their time
fooling around on the internet.

"If I have to walk around Australia and door knock and invite the media and others to join."

You do that Taryn and don't forget the kid :)

"You have the Leaders of The Australian Federational Of Islamic Council Supporting slaughtering here in Australia"

AFAIK the AFIC get paid a levy for each halal slauthtered animal,
which adds up to big bucks to fund their activities. That would
mean huge extra income if live exports were banned. No wonder they
would be keen!

I thought that was rather rude of you TarynW. A fair question given the actions of PALE. Sorry if I dont have the time or inclination to go through the hundreds of posts on these threads. Iam sure someone will be happy to tell me.

You are saying the pope is involved with banning live exports but you dont know quite how? I would be very interested to see that link.

You didnt mention what the project is that you are working on, the one that so many are interested in. Maybe people here would be if you elaborated.

"The Pope has spoken before about these matters"

The pope would not have the foggiest about live exports.
Even if he did, if you thought he was so important that
people should take notice, then clearly they should take
notice of all of what the pope says.

As the pope is deeply against abortion, perhaps you'd
better tell Wendy that you think that its fine for Catholics
to tell women what to do with their uterus. Careful she
doesent bite you lol

Butcherbob - its way back in one of the threads. Antje (CEO of PALE mentioned in Tamyns earlier post) says she did it and has already admitted she had no conscience about it.

Tamyn - I will tell you something the pope said "turning vegetarian can also help you to win salvation" www.vege4lent.org
Is that what this is all about? Are PALE closet vegetarians? Just a question. Are you going try and stear us all down the path of salvation?

"So you want to start on trying to disceit me now as well do you ?"

Did you mean discredit dear? I am sure you dont need any more help in that department.

Anyway, this is all getting to be about PALE again, can we talk about something interesting.

Pigkiddy..still hiding on Yabbys thread?
Still youve been mucking out pigcrap for so long its not only gone to your head but also your mouth..'redneck'?..Still I think its very sad when you have to hang out amongst a bunch of pple who detest you..Yabby excluded but then of course he may be under the illusion you two are having a 'relationship'..
Picture it ...Yabby in his lil overalls, backpack and hanky..and pigkiddy in her lil pigskin overalls ,the remains of pig poo on her snout..together they sail off into the sunset on the 'SS loveboat' headed for the middle East..Yabby has his supply of viagra and Pigkiddy her HRT....oh and dont forget your feminine hygeine products...

Poor umcomplicated lil manchild Yabs...so innocent and yet so thick.

Oh and Pigkiddy get running for tha delete button again...I mean you thought you already got rid of me...what happened ? HHHmmmm.

Viagra? HRT? My I ask if whatever you are on is by prescription?

I am sure in your mind that was a wonderful contribution to the discussion.

Ozgirl, quite frankly your posts remind me of a school playground
in Kiddiesville, where little girls spend their time fussing over
who likes who or is fighting with whoever. Don't you have anything
more interesting to add to these debates?

PF, how do your pigs litter sizes, paddock born, compare in number with litter sizes in factory sheds?

One of the problems that I have with modern factory farming, is that
its all just numbers based. Some lamb producers are trying to swing
to that too, which I think is sad. I know with chickens, growth and
conversion rates are all they worry about, the result being chickens
that don't have the bone structure to carry their weight etc,
quite unnatural animals, many of whom die in the process. I gather
that pigs in America are down that same path.

I try and take a more holistic approach to breeding. To me those
last few % they are trying to squeeze out of animal performance
are unhealthy and they forget that the producer today only receives
a small % of the final retail price. If we look at the whole
marketing chain, that is where the problem lies. Very often
companies like Westfield, who own the shopping centres where people
flock, earn more from a product then the original grower. Is there
anyone doing pork to growers markets as there is with lamb?

Oh that really told me Yabby...I have been duly put in my place..ouch!

Dont you think Miss Bile mouth can speak for herself?..but then your manly and virile support of her is the reason shes in here...it must be love:)..........oh I do love a good love story...

Im not sure why I havent been banned for good yet..noone is allowed to upset the vile "he bi.ch"..

Back back to on topic...Yes I do love pork and I really care if its been free range farmed....Im not a vegetarian..I do eat meat and no Im not a hypocrite..I do have milk in my tea and I eat eggs...

Yabby what can I say it is possible to care for animals and STILL use animal produce without one a hypocratic thought going thru my head.

'dont you have anything more interesting to add to the debate?'

Yabby how many times can one get excited over pig poo and what one does with it after it has left said animals anal orifice...?

I mean really..are you hearing me Yabs?...I would much rather discuss the life cycle of a yabby any day..

This whole topic of pig crap and and pigs fullstop is to humour Pigkiddy and i dont feel like humouring her...him..oh Im not even sure now.

Yabby Im a girl..pig crap is not my thing..:)

Butcherbob..you are 'flaming ' here and could be very close to getting yourself banned indefinitely...dont pry into topics and things that do not concern you.

Yabby tell him will you?Tell him not to foul up your thread with crap,because that reflects badly on you.

"Yabby Im a girl..pig crap is not my thing..:)"

The thing is Ozgirl, farming is not your thing, nor the philosophies
behind it. You city girls are much more concerned with your
fingernails and hair etc. Ok, whatever gets you through the
night lol, but all that bitching is not my thing either.

I always welcome philosophical concepts behind farming which go
beyond just money, be they from females or males. Its my passion
and why I do what I do. But that is way beyond your head it seems,
so you get back to the fingernails or worrying about your butt
or whatever :)

“hiding out” ozchild? It’s a case of you seeking me out isn’t it?

“Im a girl..pig crap is not my thing..:)”

No, you definitely don’t specialize, crap in general is your thing.

"he/she" yes, there is a lot of confusion over who I really am.

While you’re sitting there twitching and waiting for replies, just for fun, look up that foul word I used.

Yabby – we don’t farrow in the paddock. We found huge losses that way. That’s were they come up with the litter size comparisons. The ‘figures’ will tell you that free range litters are much smaller than intensive.

Our litter sizes are 10 – 14, around the same. The difference is the viability of the piglets and the lack of problems at birth like splayed legs and runts. Our litter average (very important numbers in intensive farming) are a bit lower because we do not wean at 21 days. The strange thing is that they then accept losses at weaning like there is no relationship. Your right – the poor sow will get culled if they cant squeeze the numbers out of her.

I breed for instinctive behaviours – mothering, knowing to use a wallow for sun protection, strong legs and feet, general robustness. A tough outdoor pig. Most of these characteristics have been bred out of intensive sows. I know, because we made the mistake of starting out with commercial sows. One, on her first venture into sunshine, walked 50 metres and died of heart failure.

Farmers markets would be great if there were any close enough. When you operate this place 7 days its hard to fit in. We are trialling with a ‘on seller’ at the moment but I’m not happy with the lack of control. I do know of farmers that make their living at these markets.

The problem we see with free range pork is that it tends to be fatter. Customers are so brainwashed into believing everything has to be low fat that they see meat with a lot of fat on it an inferior product.

TarynW Are we going to hear about your project? Dont let pigfarmers comments silence you.

Butcherbob - you learn quickly that if you ask the girls in the 'office' a tricky question, the either disappear or try and change the subject.

Yes, free range pork is fatter than intensive. Our pigs are not manipulated by synthetic growth promotants antibiotics and drugs like paylean.

Bringing things back to hypocrites, people say they want welfare friendly farmed food but with all the features of intensively farmed. Let the pigs roll in the mud, that makes the hypocrites feel good, but dont worry about feeding them the drugs, no one can see that so it doesnt matter. Keep feeding them that chemical cocktail because we want lean meat. Dont worry about the lifetime of antibiotics the pigs is fed, it wont affect their health or their childrens. Wont it??

Animal welfare is more than just the visual stuff, that just serves to appease the conscience of these people that never bother to look any deeper.

Welfare friendly farming is about human welfare too, not just the animals.

Just like chicken, intensively farmed pigs are forced to grow as fast as possible. We have free range chickens here too (debeaked ooh aarr) These animals take a couple of weeks longer to grow when left in natures hands, and yes, as a result will lay down a little more fat.

[Deleted. See previous]

[Deleted. Poster suspended.]

Alright heres one for you guys..

I heard the other day that pigfarmers in nsw..near Bingara ,were adding copious amounts of salt to the mash they feed to theyre pigs so that they may produce a superior porky crackle.

I believe they are getting ready for the busy christmas season and that other farmers in the area were very interested in this new practice.

I think that is very innovative and what a great boon to the consumer..perfect crackle every time.

Pigfarmer. I am on your side. I didnt mean they were right.

Heres something for you http://www.geocities.com/animalwelfare123 A mate told me about it. He says hese going to contribute, seems they are just looking for someone to go first.

Ozgirl. And we have a special name for girls like that too.

"Im all boobies ,hair ,nails and butt but you guys you just love it.."

Umm quite frankly Ozgirl, the girlie girls you describe there are
fun for a casual impregnation, but then its nice when they go home
again, as frankly I find them a little boring and irrational alot
of the time. Better a good farm girl who doesent freak out over
every spider and doesent mind getting her hands dirty.

Bob, those carcasses with too much fat, is there a problem in
simply slicing off the surplus, to suit consumer needs?

PF, how much is the fact thinggy genetic and how much is nutrition.
With lambs genetics plays a key role, although those with less
fat are sometimes not as rugged in their constitution.

I've actually taken a different direction to everyone else. I've
gone right back to Darwinian evolution theory. Genes either mutate
or are inherited, so first I've massively increased the gene pool
by combining at first 6 breeds, now 8. The result is all sorts
of genetic combinations which are usually better then either parent.
They have sex when they want, lamb when they want, some will simply
thrive in this given environment, others won't.

I make sure that the place is not overpopulated and that nobody ever
goes hungry, so feed supplementary feed at critical times of the
year. As I am God on this place :) I get to select the ram lambs,
which are generally thriving animals heading in the direction
we are going, ie. good constitution, good feet, clean bums, no
wool etc. The sheep do the rest, although I tail lambs every few
weeks. All very simple and low labour really, happy little sheep
too :)

Yabby – you are certainly right, genetics does play a part. We have started from scratch with our sows, mixing different breeds to get that ‘good do-er’. Fat scores have not been top priority in the early stages.

We have started using commercial boars from a well known stud. Their offspring have only just started to hit the ground and too early to test. They look promising though. The plan is to start selecting females from these boars based on fat scores.

We have such a robust herd of sows that I am quite confident pigs from this combination will cope well outdoors and inherit their mothering traits. It is a long process to breed a desired animal as you would know.

I have just come in from weighing and fat scoring pigs for delivery tomorrow. They are between 11 & 13mm of fat at the P2 to dress avg 45 kilos (trim 13). Would you accept pigs with that much fat butcherbob? What do you find acceptable?

Yabby, I thought you may have been in to the dorpers and damaras? Or are they crossbreds of these?

"Im all boobies ,hair ,nails and butt”

Did anyone else notice the omission of the word brains in that description?

"Yabby, I thought you may have been in to the dorpers and damaras? Or are they crossbreds of these?"

I have White Dorper blood in there, which gave us some of the shedding, but they have their own problems, with rule books, bad
feet, skin fragility etc. I've used White Suffolk, Texel,
Coolalee(itself 5 breeds), Poll Dorset, White Dorper, now
Finns and East Friesians. Going back to years ago, there is even
some merino in there too.

Oops, the yabbies and chardonay are nearly ready for lunch.
Life in the country can be pretty good really :)

We can bone out the loins for medallions or butterfly steaks. Some steaks out of the leg if its not too fat. The problem is what do you do with the rest of the carcass. We can only sell so much mince and sausages.

The thing is that people expect, and like, rind or crackling on their cuts of pork. To remove the fat, the rind has to go also. To avoid the huge waste from heavy trimming, we have tried trimming fat (and rind) from loin chops. It generally was not accepted. Ham without rind, just not done. Rindless bacon - yes, its funny how people are willing to pay so much extra for that when it probably means it was from a fat pig.

There is nothing wrong with 11-13mm of fat in my book. The fat is were the flavour and moisture is.

It all depends on were the fat is deposited. P2 is a good guide but not accurate with overall fat coverage. Fat could be heavier in the belly making the pig useless for bacon.

At the risk of offending, the free range pork I have seen is from hobby farmers that are probably not really aware of how difficult it is to grow good pork.

Yes Yabby

I'm just a poor, simple pr*@#k who can only act on the knowledge I have gained. The more knowledge I acquire the more I act.

Who viewed the documentary on SBS, many moons ago, on Farmer "Brown" in Holland and his procedure for pig farming?:

1. When piglets are about 3 weeks old, Farmer "Brown" wanders into the sty, grabs a piglet and castrates it. He proceeds until all piglets have had this procedure - no anaesthetic required!!

2. Perhaps another 3 weeks hence (I may have the procedure back to front), Farmer Brown wanders into the sty and proceeds to hack off the piglets' tails.

The squeals emanating from these animals will remain with me for the rest of my life.

Needless to say I do not eat pork!! Nor do I feed it to my visitors!

So Yabby - not good for business - would you not agree? Particularly when I relay this story to all and sundry.

And I have not eaten veal for some 30 years for the reasons you have stated.

In addition, I now do not eat lamb having been exposed to the barbaric practice of muelsing. I fail to understand why this practice continues supposedly in the "age of enlightenment",without the benefit of a local anaesthetic. Farmers need to get their priorities right when it comes to cost cutting!

I wonder who saw Sixty Minutes on the live sheep export where amongst a truck load of sheep at a dock in the middle east, was a deer. This animal was hog tied and thrown off the back of the truck to the jeers of Middle Easterners. Live sheep were rammed into the back of car boots without a thought!

So while Australian farmers are doing it tough, are they expressing outrage at animal cruelty; are their farming practices beyond reproach? I think not!

Therefore,our concerns will reduce farmers' profits. Action by governments and regulators on animal cruelty is well overdue if farmers wish to enjoy the fruits of their labour. In the meantime, I shall continue with my crusade!

Dickie – this is your only experience with intensive pig farming? An overseas documentary?

A lot of intensive farms dock tails yes, but not too many castrate pigs anymore. They are forced to grow so fast that there is no longer a need to. Tail docking is done because bored piglets all cramped in a pen virtually have nothing else to do. Once blood starts to flow it very difficult to stop the attack on one another. I might point out though that tail biting takes hold because piglets have very little feeling in the tip of their tale and it gets quite damaged before they even now about it. Farmer brown does not remove the entire tail.

Doesn’t happen on free range farms – not this one that’s for sure.

Now, the sqealing thing. That’s what piglets do. Pick one up and just hold it. The screams will deafen you. In a free range situation, it will also summon every nursing sow on the place, so run. Be around at feed time – ear pearcing! The whole 'oinking' thing is stuff of kids story books. Yes, they grunt and groan, but sqealing is most common.

I am not advocating these procedures and do not carry them out myself, but comments based on facts and not biased media and stereo typing farmers would be nice.

I doubt if you have ever eaten lamb that has been mulesed. It’s a procedure used on merinos. (Wool sheep) Do you think then that letting them die very slowly, having maggots eat thru their skin and start work on their insides is a better alternative? I don’t own merinos but would be interested to hear what you would do.

"Therefore,our concerns will reduce farmers' profits"

Actually not so Dickie, what you do might make you feel better,
but in the bigger scheme of things you don't matter :) World
meat consumption is expected to rise by 20 million tonnes
in the next few years, as places like China consume more,
due to rising incomes. Sadly alot of that will be factory
farmed, not happy farmed.

PF clearly knows her stuff there. Meat lambs are not mulesed.
But just to cheer you up, an anesthetic spray has been put
on the market called Tri Solfen I think, which quite a few
farmers have been buying. Farmers are not allowed to use
normal anesthetics. My vet says is so that we don't kill ourselves,
but I guess then its ok for vets to kill themselves :(

Farmers problems have little to do with meat demand, which is
huge, but rather the system of distribution. What Woolies and
Coles charge for meat has more to do with what the market will
bear, rather then what they pay for animals. They are under
pressure from Super Funds, which you all own to make ever
increasing profits.

I don't see the world black and white like you do. I see some
very happy farm animals, others not so. But then some of the
biggest cruelty and misery I see in mother nature herself.
So its a philosophical question, did that animal have a life
worth living? If I can answer yes to the animals on my place,
then I'm on the right track. Who eats us when we die is for
me not an issue. Even the worms will get you in the end
Dickie :)

Spot on Pigfarmer

The documentary is my only experience of pig farming. But as you say tail docking and castration is still occurring (though you claim castration practices are less common).

Perhaps you have missed my point. I refer to the inane cruelty to these poor critters and I reiterate my point by asking:

Would you like to be castrated without an anaesthetic? Or have your tail docked (if you had one)? I'm certain your answer will be a firm "No"! And how do you know that piglets have little sensation in their tails? So what do you perceive is the difference between the human and the animal's tolerance to pain? Profits? "It's only a pig for God's sake!!?"

And yes, I have seen an animal flyblown. Actually it was a Scottish Collie dog - thanks to the neglect of the "charming" owners who even objected to a merciful euthanasia because vet fees on Sundays are double rates. They planned to dump it in the bush with a bullet in it's head, however, not until they had eaten their lunch!!

Therefore, a flyblown sheep would indeed be a pitiful sight, however, I again ask why this practice is continuing without the benefit of an anaesthetic. I believe I know the answer but would like to hear your reasoning on what appears to be your indifference to the torture of animals.

Thank you for the informative post, Yabby. You say that I won't make a difference. I believe that's not quite correct having read your pleasing advice on Tri Solfen. Surely it would be people like myself who have pressured for this anaesthetic? So even if my efforts remain only parochial, I shall look forward to more satisfactory outcomes.

Interesting to read of your predictions on meat consumption and the potential for more factory farming. We humans never learn. If China is to face more epidemics of animal to human infections then I will not be surprised.

With the continuing unabated increase in population explosion of humans and their impact on the globe, I guess it's not only the animals which are doomed!

"but would like to hear your reasoning on what appears to be your indifference to the torture of animals."

Hang on Dickie, PF can provide her own reasoning, but I will
add my 5c worth here :)

Just check in your underpants to see if you were circumcised.
Are you aware that 97% of baby boys are circumcised without
an anesthetic? If you were, do you remember the traumatic
day?

I really do think that city slickers and country people
have a different perception as to what a bit of pain and
words like "torture" are all about. A friend of mine
was on a station, he chopped his hand open. So he took
a needle and thread, no doctor or anesthetic for miles lol,
sewed it back up with his other hand and a couple of days
later eventually got to see a doctor.

Everyone I know who lives in the country, has incidents where
they lose a bit of skin, a bit of blood, whatever. Its
simply not a drama, it gets better by the morning.
Are you just a great big softie Dickie?

Fact is that mulesing is not at all what Peta claimed it
to be, its a very small piece of loose skin. Lambs are
back grazing and suckling with their moms virtually
right away. Peta made all sorts of outrageous claims of
"dinner sized plate size" and "chunks of flesh", basically
nonsense.

But anyhow, now that Tri Solfen is available, no doubt some
will use it, to even satisfy the nightmares of Peta and
the Dickies of this world.

If you did happen to have lost your foreskin Dickie, I'm sorry
that you were "tortured" as a child :)

"I'm just a poor, simple pr*@#k who can only act on the knowledge I have gained"

Things are not going to change in a hurry if you refuse to listen to what others are saying. Go back and re read my last post.

I do not castrate piglets or tail dock.

I have in the past, but stopped in the belief that it was cruel. What is cruel is watching other uncastrated pigs pack rape another male. Yes, they do penetrate and the evidence is in the blood pouring out its arse. Funny how pigs are not interested in the opposite sex unless they are on heat.

It would have taken me 30 seconds to cut the nuts out of that pig. What would you have prefered? 30 seconds of pain (as perceived by a human) or the rest of your life being hit up the behind? Have you ever cut yourself with a scalpel? Chances are that your blood dripping on the floor will be your first indication. You wouldnt have even felt it.

Its a cold cruel world out there dickie. As Yabby says, nature can be the cruelest of all. We are doing the best we can for our animal. Get out and experience it before you are so quick to judge.

Such valuable information, Yabby. Thank you for your "respectful" response to my eagerness to better understand farming practices in Oz.

I would be grateful if you and Pigfarmer refrained from presuming that my queries are an effrontery to your personal practices.

In response to your apparent view that circumcision is acceptable and seemingly commonplace, I advise the following percentage of males circumcised:

Australian Statistics (circinfo.org) 1970 80 percent, 2000 12 percent

The majority of the medical profession now describe this past practice as genital mutilation and parents now would no doubt need to visit several paeditricians before accessing one who would agree to this now outdated procedure.

No doubt, Yabby, your views extend also to clitoral mutilation since you claim it is only "where they lose a bit of skin, a bit of blood, whatever".

Pigfarmer: Male pigs raping other male pigs is not a revelation since dogs hump each other when there is an imbalance - even human males do it although the genetic reasoning for that is not yet firmly established!! And yes, male animals generally respect the female species and refrain from raping them!!

On the upside, one can take heart that some sectors of our community are more evolved than others - such as the medical profession, therefore, one can hope for a more humane society which extends to all species.

Thank you both for re-enforcing my views on the farming practices of the "lesser" species.

"On the upside, one can take heart that some sectors of our community are more evolved than others - such as the medical profession,"

ROFL Dickie, you mean those ones in hospitals removing the wrong
organ on the operating table? I have a number of doctor friends
and they are no different to anyone else, apart from attitude.

My point about circumcision is that it is still widely practised
in the Western World, see America for instance and now that its shown
to have an effect on HIV spread, will no doubt become more common
in Africa. You then come here and talk about "torture" of animals.
Get real Dickie!

I never mentioned clitoral mutilation, as you well know, thats a
totally different ballgame, causing lifelong trauma for many,
so don't put words in my mouth.

Dickie, did you actually have a real boys childhood? Where you
climbed trees, fell out of them, fell over on your bike, lost a bit
of skin, lost a bit of blood ? That has nothing to do with evolving
at all, just something to do with being a sook and a mommy's boy
as a kid, if you didn't.

If society wants to get serious about pain and suffering, they should
examine what they put old people through, as they slowly let nature
take its course and let them die suffering. The Catholic Church even
tells us that its ok to suffer. If you are a doctor, do you euthanase those suffering or do you let them suffer?

I've come to the conclusion that city people are just so distant
from nature and the real world, they have completely lost touch
with the realities of life alot of the time.

Dickie

Of course you are going to make a difference.

If anything you can say you have helped to show the link between animal cruelty and people who are abusive to other people.
I will be posting again on the Animal Welfare Forum in the next two to three weeks where I hope we can go back to where we were.
Cilivia was doing some speeches in Sydney regarding intensive farming and Scout was busy with a project to involve a larger number of general public. Yabby you may not know strongly supports the cruel live export trade so enough said.
Yabby for your information speaking of unkind acts I listended to your call to Wendy.
I have a small hearing problem due to a car accident so everything is taped in the office as standard.
After reading more of your style or manner it is possibly that there was no intention on your behalf to upset or offend when speaking of the death of her Dad.
However your comment that she was over emotional after just walking through the door from a all day court matter concerning her Dads death was highly insensitive to say the least.

How many people do you know Yabby that would not be upset by their fathers pre mature passing.? [Speaking of Drs.]

You seem to wish to attack any person with concerns about animal welfare.
Your theory of every body being city slickers if you dont agree with them is very childish.
Try to at least consider others have the same right to post.

For the record Wendy does not think you upset her on purpose.

She just thinks its your insensitive way. Also that your naturally rather crude.

There are no hard feelings but your a liar if you are going to keep posting that you didnt say that Yabby because I! heard you.!!

Dickie has raised some good points Yabby so why such aggression.

The Animal welface act is a hundred years old.
It needs a huge change in most areas.

It really is that simple.

Yo Yabby, you do speak with such imperfect utterance amid such frothy rant.

Let's stick to the subject matter - that of surgical treatment on farm animals without the benefit of an anaesthetic and the issue of circumcision without painkillers - since you raised it!

Yabby claims that circumcision is wide spread in the Western world.

UK: Non-therapeutic circumcision in the UK is rare. The BMA considers this practice to be "invasive and radical".

US: The US have more circumcisions than any other western country with the current rate at 59%, down from 80 to 90% in the '70's. All states' statistics show a decline in this practice.

The American Academy of Paediatrics recommends analgesia for all circumcisions. "Pain relief should be provided to the infant undergoing circumcision as the ridiculous belief that infants do not feel pain has been completely refuted".

What was that you said, Yabby?

And your tunnel vision must enable you to astral fly since your rants presume that this poster is: 1. A city dweller, 2. A male 3, Has or had a foreskin, 4. A sooky or a Mommy's boy.

Such presumptions, Yabby! Banging the gums in this manner allows you to dodge the issue and is totally irrelevant!

Thanks for the advice about the little calves being ripped off their mothers 1 or 2 days after birth. I'm not that mad about milk anyway!

I trust you won't go and kick the dog now Yabby!

Dickie, happy to discuss facts! Fact is about a million babies
a year in the US alone are circumcised, if you look at the 90s figures, up to 96% received no anesthetic. Are you telling me
that all those rabbis are now accompanied by an anethatist?

Now go and ask a few of your male friends how many suffer from
the trauma of their snip and if they were "tortured"? sheesh,
such melodrama.

My point again, plenty of human baby boys are circumcised without
anesthetics around the world and its not the end of the world lol.

You need to toughen up a bit Dickie, go spend some time in the
outback!

Antje, frankly I'm not interested in yours and Wendy's little
girls club there. I know what I said to Wendy, you are free to
invent what I said. You go play with Wendy now :)

Yes, and most of us here know how the girls in the office reinvent those phone calls.

Dickie are you one of the crew? It would explain your inability to see the big picture.

Antje – why do you insist on coming in here and bringing up pale and wendy. I cant speak for yabby, but I could not care less how upset any of you are. You reap what you sow Antje.

Get back to listening in to wendy/Tamyn phone calls. (lets just call her BigW from now on shall we?)

Dickie – with your line of thinking you should not eat vegetables either. Ripping living things out of the ground, letting them die, or worse still, throwing them straight into a pot of scalding water – how could you! Theres only one option left dickie!

As he go out, deaf hipocrit yabby take off his cowboy hat and 12 doughnuts fall out!

Strewth, now he reckons I'm a girlie who's never been to the outback!

Recommendations from an outbacker:-

Pleeeeeeese Yabby, I beseech you.......... TAKE YOUR HAND OFF IT!

Dickie, if you'd been in the outback you would know that pigs
squeal like hell alot of the time, without watching overseas
tv programmes.

Methinks you are part of the Wendy etc crew and at this time
of night, perhaps due to the wine or whatever, your posts take
on the same irrationality as theirs.

Funny that Wendy says Yo and so does Dickie, perhaps Wendy
has grown a penis now :)

Dickie - imbalance has nothing to do with a pigs sexual preference, and they most certainly will 'rape' a female when she is on heat. Pigs act on instincts not human imposed morals. Their behaviour will go one 24 hours a day and I hear the screams of the latest victim during the night. Maybe that is a definition of torture? Unless of course that is your preference dickie?

Can you explain that 'cowboy hat and donuts' thing. It was lost on this poor country girl. I just love a man in a cowboy hat!

To Pigfarmer..'blood dripping out its arse..'..Disgusting terminology and could have been said in more respectful terms dont you think?

And if this occurs in your piggery..pack rape..why do you not seperate the offending animals to at least spare them that trauma..also for yourself (extra work) into the process?

Pigfarmer: Quote for the day:

"If at first you don't succeed why go on and make a fool of yourself?"

Lesson 1: An animal on heat is an invitation to mate. This is consensual sex - IT IS NOT RAPE

Lesson 2: When sex is forced upon the victim without their consent - THAT IS RAPE

Lesson 3: Most rapists are of the human species, though they are often described as animals - an insult to the animal kingdom!

Definitions of "Imbalance": Mainly human interference; Improper farming practices; Too many hogs for too few sows on heat; Failure to separate sows after initial mating; Pigfarmers who get off listening to pig orgies all night.

Definition of a Cowboy Hat: Straw stetson, usually worn by a cowboy who is sometimes seen swaggering down Pitt Street or the Terrace to see their accountant.

Cowboy's Dress Mode: Cowboy hat; spurs; Bits of straw in their dentures; Fly undone; Lassoo for snaring sheilas.

Cowboy's Persona: Likes to talk about his balance sheet; Brags about the number of live sheep he's exported; Complains about the smelly dead animals he's knocked off with 1080 in his baiting programme; Suffers with BO.

Definition of doughnuts: Brains

Recommendation: Hang around Pitt Street or the Terrace. Don't forget your whip and spurs!

Toodle Pip

So Yabby..what do you think of the practice a few yrs ago of foxshooters keeping the feral fox populatiobn under control around lambing time?

Did you encourage shooters to come in and cull foxes? Now that the fur trade is no longer a viable option for these shooters , how do you control your fox population around this time?

I am interested in methods used now to control foxes.

Well Rachel, we don't want to be accused by the animal libbers of
discrimination now do we. So we tie brightly coloured ribbons
around the necks of the smallest and weakest lambs, so that even those foxes
with vision impairment know exactly where to find the jugular
when they rip em to bits. Any more questions ? :)

Rachel06 – my carefully chosen words were designed to try and drive home a point to dickie, nothing more and totally a waste of time. Could have been said with my respect? For who, dickie, antje, wendy ? lol Some people just need to slapped in the face with the facts.

Separate the trouble makers? Mmmm, separate little cages for them all? Theres an idea ……

Foxes - I like to whistle them up and politely encourage them not to return. Do I get the idea you are fishing for a particular response?

Stick to your puppy dogs dickie. You are way out your depth with anything else.

“Cowboy's Dress Mode: Cowboy hat; spurs; Bits of straw in their dentures; Fly undone; Lassoo for snaring sheilas.”

OOhh! I’ve got goose bumps!

yabby..im not animal libber, nor do i hail from the city..it was a legitimate question..but as this thread was started by you i find it extraordinary that you have such low regard for the people who come in to post..

do you want to answer my question and give a legitimate response..

I am an ex fox shooter.

Pigfarmer..my father ran pigs and it was not our experience that pigs scream a lot of the time as you say..nor do i remember pack rape of pigs as a problem for my father..

I think you just assume that the average person other than you and Yabby are the only ones on here that are qualified to have an opinion on any way shape or form .

Is that what you think?

rachel06 - if you were a fox shooter why would you need to ask how we control them? You would know.

Your father ran pigs? Enlighten me with your experiences. How many, under what conditions?

If you have bothered to read the posts so far, you would see that most are not interested in learning anything about what really happens in farming, just pushing their fanatical and unrealistic ideas, PALE and vegetarianism.

Rachel

We will answer your question if possibly as to cull foxes.
The old timers used Saffron. It is not widely know however the old sheep farmers used this to render animals unconscious and they die painlessly. We have spoken some time ago to the manufacturers
Its a matter of chasing things up. Of course Saffron is very expensive so we need to look for a generic equal. Good Project for CRIRO. Clearly it could replace the cruel 1080.

While I am here Rachel PALE stands for People Against live Exports. We are not Animal Liberation.

We work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD on live exports and you can see our site here>
http://www.livexports.com/
We also work with AFIC to introduce farmers at grass roots levels with overseas purchasers of meats.> Here
http://www.halakindmeats.com

We do have another thread under animal welfare which I intend to re commence posting on in the next few weeks.
So if you would like to vist my thread you will be welcome.

I agree with you about the standard of speech or lack of.

If you look at the nature of people its not hard to see why animals suffer is it.


No Dickie is not PALE staff or even a member.
He just seems to be a fair minded person to me.

There are real people working to come up with improvements however the buck stops with the Government. New codes of practice are urgently required in just about every industry regarding animals.

If every person pulls together the Government have to listen.

Pleased to see another fair minded person posting.
However do not expect anything in return on this thread other than rude crude comments between two people who are totally obsessed with them selves
By the way Yabby is all hat and no cattle as we say.

And Pig Farmerr Lee Is Dr Wirths new PR lady? How proud he must be.

Howdy Rachel06

Seems Yabby and Pigfarmer are avoiding your question. You may be interested in the following item, extracted from a regional newspaper last week:

" Veterinary surgeon has seen about five dogs die at the clinic after ingesting baits in the surrounding area. She said none of the owners had seen signs to warn them of the fatal baits which target feral animals.

She said the dogs all carried symptoms associated with the 1080 baits.

The baits are poisonous to both feral and domestic animals and inflicts a cruel and violent death which can take up to four days.

"I think if they're going to put baits down they need to put signs up", she said.

While these pastoralists were subject to audit at any time, there was no position dedicated to ensuring the signs were erected.

The vet's concerns come just as the State government has allocated $160,000 towards controlling the wild dog problem.

The Environment Department has joined forces with the Department of Agriculture and Food to develop a new sausage bait" (end of quote).

And these charmers lurk amongst us and claim to be civilised! Does one need to be "qualified" to make a correct assessment of this practice? I think not!

If you were once shooting foxes, then I would say that method is far more humane than the present one.

And funny that, with their apparent glee and "banging of chests" about the use of this heinous poison, feral animals are on the increase!

Hi everyone..was very interested to see a post from a foxshooter on here..as was I .Going back a few years go I shot foxes and did it for quite a while.You may have even heard of me Yabby..you being a WA man.
I shot properties in regional NSW, up around Albury, the Nullabor, Anna Creek station and the Simpson desert..round Meekatharra West Australia etc.Dick Nunn ran Anna Creek station in sa then.

The large sheep populations were in NSW around the Hay plains thru the Ivanhoe region up to Wilcannia and Broken Hill area..
We not only shot foxes but Kangaroos , then though mainly for pet food.

Cockies had a problem with foxes at lambing time, and we were rang by the cocky to come in and shoot their property , some of them after we left took to shooting them themselves..they were worth far more than their sheep.
I shot kangaroos and foxes simultaneously..shot roos into a chiller that was emptied once a week and skun, pegged and prepared fox skins for market in Melbourne and Adelaide..it was common for skin buyers to come to outback towns to specifically purchase skins from shooters ..we were possibly the first professional shooters then until word of the money to be made spread and then all changed.

It was hard work and the hours were much like those of truckies and we bought 'uppers' from them to stay awake.
Days consisted of reloading more bullets,mending staked tyres, doing books,tring to 'come down' to get a bit of sleep and leaving late afternoon to get to a property then put in all night till sunrise .

On the Nullabor we slept in swags and that was much the same thing.I was young, was tough work, but well paid..we bought our own home paid for in cash 6 months after we got into good market prices.

Since the demise of fox shooting it is a legitimate query to wonder how, now these cockies control theyre fox populations..since there is now foxes everywhere..i dont see the problem with this question quite frankly..

Yareckon, foxes are still shot on a regular basis, not for skins,
never have been around here, but just to keep the numbers down
and stop them eating lambs. Usually its a group of farmers sons
who go out with a spotlight every couple of months or so.

Alpacas are also used as guardians, they do a pretty good job
actually.

Pigfarmer,

Probably not the right place to be discussing people without theyre knowledge nor naming properties..
Its been a few yrs anyway so probably a lot of them sold up and moved on by now..been a pretty bad drought out that way for quite awhile now.

It would seem judging by the post above you are preoccupied with much more important matters:)

Yareckon - why not? you have mention one property in SA? Come on, this is my old stomping ground! Been a few years for me too so we were probably there around the same time. If I havent heard of you one of the family would have. We have a long history all out that way.

"It would seem judging by the post above you are preoccupied with much more important matters:) "

Hardly! lol Drivel from the 'office' is just monotonous. We need a change of subject. If fox shooting is no longer viable for you, what know? Kangaroos, or pigs maybe?

Dickie

Thank You for your reply. You have possibly seen some of these which links Global warming to Animal Health.
http://www.fasts.org/site/policy/occasionalpapers/parasite_paper.pdf#search=%22global%20warming%20effects%20animal%20care%20health%20%22

http://www.csiro.au/files/mediaRelease/mr2004/prbluetongue.htm
http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/RJ03011.htm

There are many posts on the connection which I am sure you know about already.

Our main job is The Barbaric Live Animal Export Trade. Anybody who supports that would be lower than a snakes belly as they say in the bush.

Did anybody see the Doc on TV last night about the abattoir at Cowra Closing down

The Mayor went on telling the public how it has devasted his town and the clear wide range effects that carry through to each person business.

Well thats what happend to the little Country towns clear throughout Australia.

Yareckon I agree with you about the number of fox now than years ago.

Do you think however a lot of it is also dogs running wild?

What do you think about these people with their use of Saffron?

Either way I think shooting would have to be kinder than this 1080.

PF Look I really do not care what you post. From what I can see you are looking after you animals a lot better than some.
As for the other issue you just keep going on and on about For pity Sake.
You wrote complaining about a reply you received from Animal Australia.

A letter was sent out to them supporting you. Now you are complaining. For heavens! sake woman. You asked for support and received it.

I agree with you.

You should have! been supported and its good that you wrote to them.

How on earth can you improve animal welfare unless the public are fully informed.

Why should the public keep donating millions of dollars for nothing.

Funds should be spent promoting Free Range Farmers Like Yourself and others.

Or a Good Court Case To Make This Government enforce some proper laws.
The Animal Welfare act is the only act of Parliment that is not enforced.
Its not policed and people walk off Scott Free Even when they are! charged which isnt often.

You don’t quite get it Antje. I can stand up for my self. I don’t need, or want PALE writing to people on my behalf. I don’t want to be seen to have any connection whatsoever with PALE. That’s the part I don’t like. I don’t appreciate the attempt to hitch a ride on the name of a reputable business.

You are always accusing others of avoiding issues. I would like to hear what you / PALE have done to help free range farmers. Actions antje, not links to what others have done, not more talk, actions. We have been asking this question for a long time without ever getting an answer.

I’d love to hear all about the saffron thing too. What plant are you actually referring to? Saffron the spice, saffron thistle, saffron bush?

Pigfarmer
After the foxes fell through I bought a fishing boat and traversed back and forth between top end QLD and New Guinea..after that I went to New Zealand and ran a Caravan Park near Taupua and then sold that and bought a Charter Boat..Sasha Charters ,shot deer over there...Ive purchased land in Qld and now Im back in Australia for a bit..

Been out to Borrooloola couple months ago croc hunting and sleeping in trees has its challenges I can tell you..Got a few buffallo as well.

Im thinking of buying a farm back in NZ and running a few cattle but taking a rest now with family here in Victoria .Ive never really taken a rest and I dont know if Ill take to farming but I need to settle for a few years, find a nice woman.

Pigfarming not for me Im afraid .

Pigfarmer,

I would have swapped a couple of stories with you about the old days but after a read of your above post seems like I have somehow got caught up in this thing you have on here with other posters,
so Ill just leave it I think.
Im heading out soon anyway but nice to meet you all and take it easy ay?

"Until all farmers denounce both these barbaric practices,"

antje and wendy umm dickie, you are free to chant away about live
exports, 1080, or whatever else is the bee in your bonnet of the
day, but so are any other housewives, so are the Hare Krishna.
That does not mean that too many will take much notice, until
you start producing rational arguments, not just emotive
rhetoric or dreams.

There are many reasons why the live trade exists. Whether its
cruel or not, I'd prefer to leave to qualified people such as the
AVA to judge, rather then some housewives on the gold coast.
Fact is, the feedlot industry is here to stay in Australia, right
now its actually preventing alot of suffering, given the near
Australia wide drought. If feedlots are legal, you will have a hard
time showing why floating feedlots should not be. Emotive rhetoric
won't get you over the line, in a rational world.

Yes 1080 is used in the baiting of some foxes and particularly wild
dogs. Nobody has so far come up with a better realistic option,
even though I gather CSIRO are working on one. 1080 is still a
naturally occuring poison in WA, it even grows alongside roadsides,
so local species have some immunity to it, unlike many other poisons.

Now if you ask me if its better to bait wild dogs with 1080, given
no viable other option apart from letting them rip livestock to bits
ad lib, yup I am completely in favour of it, it results in less
suffering overall

I have spent the last few days in one of our capital cities – land of the intensively farmed human. Its been a long time since I ventured near this many of them.

Yesterday I spent the day at Seaworld – watched these people ohh and arrhh over animals in little pens and pools. Cueing and squashing one another to get to the feed (kiosk)

Today I sat on an artificial beach (chlorine water and all – did have sand) these people stacked on top of one another. The roar of the surf – well nearly, it was the freeway across the river.

No wonder city people don’t seem to have a problem with intensively farming animal. They live that way themselves.

Tomorrow I am off to a ‘farmer’s market’ in the middle of Brisbane. Wonder what that translates to in the city?

Yabby,

Dont waste your time mate..this lot have lost the plot:)

A question to Butcherbob..are you a butcher by trade:) if so Id like a few tips in this area in relation to dressing a side of pig.

Any tips you have would be great.

Pig farmer

The heading of this thread was dealing with hypocrites?

It was also about animal welfare or at least titled that way by your mouth loose friend.

Intensive people on the Gold coast you say.

Well most of those intensive people are getting raided by the turn of one thousand five hundred people a week coiming up to QLD and staying.

The Gold coast is still a great place to live. I left WA ages ago.

You complain about Sea world and people looking at animals but I note you were there?

Did you perhaps take the off spring.

Had you had driven ten minutes into the hinterland you would have seen some lovely country and free range farms.

Next Time you are visting the Gold coast let us know perhaps you might like a deep water fishing tour.

Only happy to provide.

There is a boat that goes out each day called .

Gone Fishing.

Last time I looked the capital of QLD was Brisbane, not the Gold Coast.

Thanks Benny, but I had a much, much better offer!

Continued my holiday in WA. A wonderful week of sun and relaxation, no crowds, with plenty of time for doing yabbying :)

Sigh PF. I miss you already. We'll have to do all that again soon :)