Should illegal immigrants have an easier path to citizenship?
What are some of y'alls opinions?
Please share!!

Definitely not. Why do you think illegals have been told they will never be settled in Australia?

Illegal immigrants? Certainly not.
Refugees and asylum seekers should have an easier path to citizenship.

There should be several tiers of citizenship, so that the outer tiers involve less commitment, duties and privileges while the inner tiers involve more commitment, duties and privileges.

Getting into the innermost tier(s), for those who so wish, should be difficult and lengthy for anyone, let alone immigrants, legal or otherwise.

I'm going to respond to this question with another question.

'Should Australian citizens on hospital waiting lists have an easier path to healthcare'?

There's this thing called the economy which prevents us from having everything we want, but only what we can afford.

A lot of you guys are older than me in your later years, so this is essentially a life or death question.

Who's more important?
Australian citizens, people who have worked and paid taxes all their lives or foreigners who are yet to contribute anything?

I'll let you decide.

Should pensioners be treated like second class citizens after paying tax all their lives while some marry four wives and have each collecting welfare?

Illegal immigrants should be expelled at their
own expense with the proviso that they can apply
for legal migration after a period of approx. 5 years
of absence - and having passed all the health, character,
language, no criminal record tests, et cetera,
they could then be accepted
as legal migrants into the country with the privileges
of new settlers.

I do not believe in putting them either in jail or
deportation at the taxpayer's expense.

Australian citizenship in 2016 isn't worth the paper it is written on. What is being Australian today except that of being just a number on a passport. In Sydney the so-called citizens can hardly even understand what each other is saying. And only minority groups share a common culture and history. These differences are so strong in Australia today that they preclude a true intrinsic concept of citizenship from existing. The only ones who are really keen on banging the citizen drum today are the politicians and business leaders who need to prop up the disaster that is multiculturalism in order to sustain the politico-economic system that lines their pockets.

SOL: Refugees and asylum seekers should have an easier path to citizenship.

If you want 'em Suze, you personally look after & be responsible for them. Yair right!

They should be shipped right back to whence they came. Post haste.

Armmchair: Who's more important? Australian citizens,

Of course we are. Look after your own first.

Foxy: Illegal immigrants should be expelled at their own expense with the proviso that they can apply for legal migration after a period of approx. 5 years of absence.

Sounds good. Knocked back if they are moslems though.

Foxy: I do not believe in putting them either in jail or deportation at the taxpayer's expense.

That's right. That would be more expense on the Australian Taxpayer.

Mr O: the disaster that is multiculturalism.

The very first sensible thing you have uttered.

This all dances around the civil rights problem.
First the government has a legal obligation to its citizens.
The government has not established what the optimal population is for Australia.
It has been done for Egypt; 40 million if certain upstream dams are not built.
So why can't we do it here ?

Brussels police report that 50 ISIS supporters work at their airport.
How many work at Sydney's airport ?
Being an occasional user, three times a year or so I would truely like to know.
Does that make me a racist Foxy ?
Oh I forgot, Islam is a religion not a race.

Should we have a list of occupations that are banned for moslems ?
If so should we just ban moslems and be damned ?

So, messy isn't it, so if we decide we should ban moslems from
certain occupations, should that ultimately lead to the conclusion
that if they cannot be trusted we should not allow their immigration any way ?

To sum up, no, immigration should be more restrictive not less.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

"Australian citizenship in 2016 isn't worth the paper it is written on."

Australian citizenship (plus a small fee) gives you a passport that allows you to travel freely around the world. While otherwise useless, you must admit that not many other passports, including your beloved Chinese one, can facilitate such free travel through practically all countries.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I'm not referring to those pragmatic aspects. I'm talking about the concept of citizenship. It's the idea that one is a member of a polity which is shared by other members who advocate a commonality of person and category vis-a-vis those who are held to be outsiders and foreigners. (Dear all, please let me know if any of this social theory is hurting your brain).

Mr O: It's the idea that one is a member of a polity which is shared by other members who advocate a commonality of person and category vis-a-vis those who are held to be outsiders and foreigners. (Dear all, please let me know if any of this social theory is hurting your brain).

Yep! Cut out the Upper class BS talk & bring it down to the General Public. First rule of Communication. "Speak to your lowest Common show us how Hoi Poloi you can be.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

As it stands, the concept of citizenship is absurd because they tell you that you are a "member" of this club that they call "state" despite the fact that you were never asked whether you want or even agree to belong to that club.

However, once this is rectified, I see nothing wrong with "citizenship" denoting membership (which is shared by other members who advocate a commonality of person and category vis-a-vis those who are held to be outsiders and foreigners).

Even then I would like to see citizenship not as binary function, but rather have several tiers of citizenship - just as some clubs have "bronze-membership", "silver-membership", "gold-membership", etc., describing various levels of commitment between an individual and their club.

Yuyutsu,

Australian Citizenship is gold tier.
Permanent Resident status is silver tier.

Bronze tier is externally administered. 'Tis known as New Zealand Citizenship!

_________________________________________________________________________

Mr 0,

Why would you want a commonalty of person?

Dear Aidan,

Why are you asking that question? I hope you haven't forgotten all of those years of social theory they taught to you in your engineering degree.

Dear Jayb,

Believe me when I say that I definitely do not belong amongst the hoi polloi. What on earth led you to suppose that?

Mr O: What on earth led you to suppose that?

I'm not referring to those pragmatic aspects. I'm talking about the concept of citizenship. It's the idea that one is a member of a polity which is shared by other members who advocate a commonality of person and category vis-a-vis those who are held to be outsiders and foreigners.

That's what.

Is what you meant to say, "We're all in the same boat, that makes us all Citizens of Australia, Those not in the boat, aren't." ;-)

Mr 0,
"Why are you asking that question?"
To find out the answer, of course! You seemed to be implying that it's an important and desirable feature of citizenship, yet gave no indication as to why. Using assumptions as a substitute for the facts means you're likely to reach a ridiculous conclusion, like you repeatedly have about my opinions.

And just to clarify, the "you" was aimed at you personally.

"I hope you haven't forgotten all of those years of social theory they taught to you in your engineering degree."
I remember the important things from my engineering degree. Social theory wasn't one of them, but sensitivity of results to assumptions was. If you still don't know that despite all those degrees, I don't see how they can be of much value.

NO.
It is amazing that many British and New Zealanders who have lived in Australia for over thirty years and with Australian children and grandchildren are knocked back if they apply for citizenship .Reasons in some cases are that they were on holiday overseas for a few months,etc etc.
The Immigration has a strict policy of restricting white Europeans from obtaining Australian Citizenship.
If you enter illegally or a overstayer from anywhere except New Zealand or Britain you are given Red Carpet treatment by the foreign
controlled Immigration Office.
I ask anyone to take a few minutes to look into an Australia Immigration Office.You will not see one white Australian or Indigenous
Australian.It is packed with foreigners who want their people to come to Austrralia.
It is time Australian's woke up to what is happening to their country.

Dear BROCK,

It's only going to get worse.

There is no such thing as an Australian identity any more, except in the historical sense. The poor old Anzacs and diggers who gave their lives to help create an Anglo-Australian nation would turn in their graves if they new how the politicians and business leaders had sold out their descendants to China.

There is one good thing to come out of it. At least now all the Anglo-Australians know how the poor Aboriginals feel about having been pushed off their land and having their societies and cultures decimated by the Anglo-Australians. Now the whites are going to get a taste of what it is like to have it done to them by the Chinese. A case of what goes around comes around.

Mr Opinion,
Right, so my kids have to see their future prospects diminished on account of actions taken by a foreign power 226 years ago?
The Chinese aren't going to "take over" anything, they're the being set up by those old Anglo oligarchs to bear the brunt of the working class backlash, just like they were in 1901.

Dear Jay Of Melbourne,

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Mr 0,

'Tis quite obvious, though I'm astounded Jay's the one saying it:
The rich are fleecing the poor and blaming the Chinese, just as they did in 1901.

BTW I notice you still haven't answered my previous question even though I've explained why I've asked. Is it too difficult for you?

Dear Aidan,

If I don't answer your questions it is probably because I don't understand why you are asking the question.

PS. Kudos on being able to use words with three or more syllables. A quality rarely found among engineers.

Mr O: PS. Kudos on being able to use words with three or more syllables. A quality rarely found among engineers.

Delusions of Superiority, again.

Dear Aidan,

<<Australian Citizenship is gold tier. Permanent Resident status is silver tier. Bronze tier is externally administered. 'Tis known as New Zealand Citizenship!>>

This is a good start, but much more is needed.

Different tiers should define our level of involvement with the state and its various functions.

Those in the outermost tier should neither be bound by laws nor protected by the state. They should simply be tolerated by the state so long as they do not harm or threaten its inner-citizens (including their property and environment). This corresponds more-or-less to the current legal status of animals.

The next tier could include basic state/police-protection in exchange for basic taxes and observance of laws relating to public-behaviour.

The next tier could include access to state-institutions, such as courts, ombudsman, land-ownership registration and voting for local councils in exchange for more taxes.

The next tier could include access to basic welfare, incorporation and voting for the senate in exchange for accepting the state standards for education and work.

The innermost tier would include health-care, aged-care, public-housing and similar services as well as voting for the lower-house, in exchange for the Medicare levy and observing such laws that are meant to keep people healthy, safe and useful.

People should be able to move out to outer tiers (provided they repaid their debts to the state for services they received within the inner tier). Moving in to inner tiers should be by mutual agreement or by birth to parents in the appropriate tiers.

Dear Jayb,

It's one of the things I've noted in my 40 years as a participant-observer amongst the vulgar and ignorant engineers.

Mr O: It's one of the things I've noted in my 40 years as a participant-observer amongst the vulgar and ignorant engineers.

What a queer thing to say. You obviously spend a lot of time up yourself. A Class-asist. (Another new word?)

Belay your astonishment Aidan, I'm just concerned with avoiding another 100 years of guilt tripping and public shaming of my ethnic group should a few Chinese drug dealers, claim jumpers, loan sharks and slumlords get their skulls cracked as they did in the 19th century.
The truth is that all the profits from immigration go to the rich and all the negative consequences fall on the poor and that there's no such thing as progress for the working class under capitalism.
Marx predicted that capitalism would alleviate the suffering of the workers but that it would also increase the misery of the working classes, as the Australian dream, which was a product of early Socialist thought slips further and further away are we not miserable in 2016?

Dear Jayb,

You're not an anthropologist so I don't expect you to understand what I am saying.

Mr O:You're not an anthropologist so I don't expect you to understand what I am saying.

The problem is, I do. None of makes any sense. That's what worries me.

Dear Jayb,

NO YOU DON'T. You only want others to think that you understand what I am saying.

Mr O: NO YOU DON'T. You only want others to think that you understand what I am saying.

Hmmmm.... you're right, but neither does anyone else. When living in a world of your own, you are always right.

Dear Jayb,

It's mostly just you and the engineers who cannot understand what I am saying. That is because you and they don't know anything about anthropology, history and sociology.

Mr O: That is because you and they don't know anything about anthropology, history and sociology.

& Who says so. You?

Let me repeat, Opps! Scrub that, we don't want a fire mission down on us, do we? I say again. "What a queer thing to say. You obviously spend a lot of time up yourself. A Class-asist. (Another new word?)& Hmmmm.... you're right, but neither does anyone else. When living in a world of your own, you are always right."

& That's about me for 24hrs.

Mr 0,

I've never encountered any engineer having trouble with words of several syllables, which is hardly surprising as "engineering" itself has four. But engineers tend to value clarity. There's no advantage in telling you "your comments consist of the propagation of multiple falsehoods" when I could instead describe them as "a pack of lies".

"If I don't answer your questions it is probably because I don't understand why you are asking the question."
I think your failure ta answer it after I'd explained why (and even after I reminded you that I'd explained why) suggests a very different reason: you know what you wrote was absolute rubbish (or at least beyond your intellectual capacity to justify) and you want to maintain the illusion of superior knowledge of matters historical, sociological and anthropological.

But you've overstretched yourself; you're not fooling anyone!

Dear Aidan,

I have encountered plenty of engineers who have trouble using words of three or more syllables. Some of the engineers I've worked with over the past 40 years are very poor in English. I paid a compliment to an engineer once, saying 'That is a feather in your cap' and he wanted to fight me because he didn't wear a cap.

I keep to the periphery of the engineering trade because I have trouble understanding most engineers. Their grammar, syntax and lexicon are all over the place and they use what I call Engineer-speak as a variant of English. Their English is just not the sort of English that would be acceptable in Arts. It's almost as if they stopped learning English after finishing their secondary education.

Mr O: Their English is just not the sort of English that would be acceptable in Arts.

There we go again, "I'm just so classy, I could just touch myself. Oooh."

Anyone can scribble on a wall with their crayons & be called an Artist & have an Arts Degree. Such a useless Degree. An old girl friend got one of those. She could have translated Ancient English into Old English. Hundreds of Applications & not one answer. She a nurse now.

At least Engineers are useful & the improve the World. They probably use Adult words, way over your head ducky.

Dear Jayb,

This is between me and Aidan. We don't need you putting in your two bits unless you happen to be an engineer.

Engineering Trades Person (Mechanical)with Double modules + (52 in all), Plus, Certificate in Business Studies 111, Certificate in Computers 11, Certificate 1 in Electronics. Certificate 111 in Instruction, to Warrant Officer. Certificate 11 in Water Management. (British Army School of Health , Neesoon, Singapore.) Ticket for just about every type of Heavy Machinery you can think of.

And with an Arts Degree you can draw stickmen with crayons & talk funny. Whoopee Duck. I just love Arty Farty types, they're sooooo funny.

Heh, heh, the bib and braces and the Doc Martens boots doth not an engineer make.

On the other hand, any opinionated fool can be a social engineer and there are so many of them about.

Dear Jayb,

You qualify to put in your two bits.

Now, what else do you know outside of engineering?

On the social engineers from the social 'sciences'(sic)*,

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/sorry-david-but-its-the-wrong-fight/news-story/bde2bcf63f2d2dbdd20a7534ae29da7a

'sciences'* - Many would be experiencing increasing difficulty swallowing the social sciences' claims to be sciences, where there are so many examples of trash science about and being spruiked as 'real'.

-Just to help the fight here between the claimed social 'scientist' and engineers, some of the real scientists (and thank God for them!).

The story of Mr/Ms 'O' - no science, just emotion.

Some theme music to listen to while looking out for those real engineers (Yikes!!),

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-lJZiqZaGA

Dear onthebeach,

I suggest using humanities when describing the Arts such as history, archaeology, anthropology, sociology, classics, modern languages.

Social science is just a fancy way of saying economics.

You are saying then that anthropology (to take one example) is not a science.

Jolly good.

Watch out for those Engineers, the real ones.

Dear onthebeach,

Engineers aren't scientists. They're engineers.

Scientists try to discover and explain how the physical world and universe work.

Engineers do design and construction of everyday works e.g. roads, machines, motors, bridges, etc.

You should not confuse the two. However, some engineers are also qualified as scientists, having done degrees in one of the sciences. Irony is that one needs to have a degree in science to be a scientist but does not need a degree in engineering to be an engineer. I think this shows how much more important scientists are.

Mr O: Now, what else do you know outside of engineering?

Just about everything. I have an insatiable curiosity. That's why I have a huge library with only 4 Novels. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Zen, The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance & the Sequel Lila & another I can't think off at the moment. There would be over Technical 2000 books on just about every subject imaginable.

That's why I can't get anyone to play Trivial Pursuit with me. Oh, Sport, know nuthin'.

You only really need a Degree to brag to others. I know an Emminent Academic who can't tie his own shoelaces. If his wife died he'd starve to death.

mr O: when describing the Arts such as history, archaeology, anthropology, sociology, classics, modern languages.

Airy Fairy, Arty Farty Subjects. Nothing of any real importance in the scheme of things. Subjects you play with when you haven't got a real job.

When it comes to history, something I was really good at in School. The Social Studies Book 1 @ 2. Grade 8. My dads photo was in them, Twice. The part on the History of the Burdekin was all wrong. We used to remark on it. My Grandparents were Pioneers in the District. Arriving on the 10 May 1910 from Ravenswood when the Gold petered out. Seven of my Uncles were the first settlers in Giru under the supervision of their wives after being let out of Jail. It was amazing what was wrong. Yet they were the answers we were required to give. So much for Academics with Degrees in History. I have always wondered what else was wrong in those books.

Dear Jayb,

People don't do Arts with the aim of getting a job. It's not like the trades subjects where the singular purpose is to be trained for a job. That's why we call degrees in engineering, law, architecture, medicine, etc., vocational degrees.

People do Arts simply because it's fascinating. Everyone wants to know about themselves: where they came from, what they're doing here, why things have happened, why are there so many different cultures, etc, etc. How many people on The Forum do you see who want to talk about what they do at work? B-O-R-I-N-G-!

Mr O: People don't do Arts with the aim of getting a job.

Hmmm.... What the General Public call dole Bludgers, Lefties & Greenie types. Thank you for clearing that up.

These are the people that are what's known as "Permanent Students." No real Aim in life, just study at the Taxpayers expense. Up to 70 odd years old, never had a job, just went to UNI, Did ARTS, very educated. Yes, I know the type. We see 'em at every Student Demonstration, breaking down doors, desecrating offices, assaulting policemen & others, chaining themselves to trees. Then crying they're hard done by.

God, you're so easy. I love you.

Dear Jayb,

I was faced with the choice of doing an Arts degree or remaining an ignorant unknowledgeable engineer throughout my life. I chose to do Arts and have never looked back. I've collected three Arts degrees and hope to add one more to the list. All while working as a self-employed engineer.

Most of the Arts grads I've met in my life are all workers and live very everyday lives. I don't know where you get this idea that Arts grads are running amok trying to turn the world on its head. I think you should try getting out more often and stop listening to the distorted views of knucklehead engineers.

Come on Mr Opinion, people do arts degrees when they are not capable of doing anything else.

They then go & get a "job" as a paper pusher in the public service.

Dear Hasbeen,

I did my Arts degrees after my engineering degree and I only did them out of interest. And I'm very happy that I did because it looks like they will now get me into a PhD program working on a really fascinating project thus allowing me to conclude my philosophical journey through life on a high note.

The problem with pursuing a career in Arts is that one needs to complete training at PhD level to land a job as an anthropologist, historian, archaeologist or sociologist. Like you indicated, can't do much with just a bachelors except work as a clerk or secondary school teacher.