GZ Tan
As someone who has known as friends many moderate Muslims [some extremely moderate, if it could be called that], both in Australia and in Bali, I suppose my exceptions to YOUR rule count for nothing.

Incidentally, in one of your previous posts you say that 'sin entered the world during Adam & Eve times'. Are you referring to the Old Testament story as allegorical or literal? If you believe it literally and as something which happened only a few thousand years ago, then how can you also talk about yourself as someone with a technical background, who can ask others to correctly state something scientifically and logically?

Of course, if you are a Christian who is stuck in the past, you can be conditioned to believe anything:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

Yareckon?
Well said. Similar things have happened probably everywhere modern European culture has become the dominant one, over the culture of the long time inhabitants. Well, what's done is done, but we now have the scientific knowledge and experience to start to correct things, if the political will is there. But the power brokers of the current Australian culture don't seem to be capable of seeing things that way.

Chief Seattle quotes: [Perhaps accurate, perhaps not, but none-the-less beautiful, spiritual and meaningful. And perhaps more relevant than a lot of the more recent dogma which is often argued about.]

http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/seattle.html

Rex,

Thanks mate for that link..you were right, it speaks to the heart alright and theres a lesson in there for us all.

The black man in this country has the same beliefs as the red man in America and in fact have great respect for each other..

Rex,

I meant it both allegorically AND literally. Any problem with that?

Allegorically because it is not scientific. However that does not mean the 'story' could not be logically true. But even if the 'story' were literally true, we may never prove it in our lifetime.

Literally because whilst there is a scripture that states it, there is no authoritative source that disproved it. And I believe sin is a human attribute (not just any animal). Therefore sin must literally 'enter' through existence of human, like the Bible says. Though it all seems rather allegorical.

I do not necessarily believe the 'story' is only a few thousand years old. I am critical both religiously and scientifically. But I will say I think human existence is definitely not in the order of millions of years.

So do you find fault in my scientific and logical thinkings? I'd be very interested to know.

I notice you did not claim to be a Muslim (just that you have many moderate Muslim friends). So why do you say you are exceptions to MY RULE ( a term that you used, not me). I'd be very interested to hear your argument about the 'exceptions'.

We may even discover who is the one stuck to an idea and conditioned to believe in something.

"Some people will readily cite examples that contradict what I just said. But this is not because Islam culture is able to evolve. Sometimes such 'moderateness' has a very simple explanation - Muslim 'laziness' or more significantly a prevailing environment (like Australia) that permits such a 'laziness', due to a weaker effective Islamic pull factor."

Maybe I could have said 'opinion' rather than 'rule'. But it seemed to me that you were denying the validity of any possible differences to your opinion, even before any were made.

No, I'm not Muslim. My four grandparents were [alphabetically] Catholic, Jewish, Methodist and Presbyterian. I sometimes wonder if, in our family, various options were put in a hat and the winner pulled out. I was raised as moderate Anglican and went, on a scholarship, to a strongly Methodist school, back in the days when English Methodists were inclined to be very narrow-minded. Even as a boy, I immediately picked the hypocrisy.

By the time I was 15, I had realised that I could not honestly repeat the Apostles' Creed, the tenet of Anglicanism. Some of it I accepted, some I didn't believe and some I found irrelevant. I have retained strong feelings of spirituality, but I'm not connected with any organised religion and have no wish to be.

And I've felt for a long time that if I had been unfortunate enough to have been born into a religion with [to me] a lot of irrelevant dos and don'ts, then I would have done what my Irish Catholic grandfather did, got out of it.

It just seemed to me that you were having a go at Fellow_Human, not because of something he had allegedly said or done, but merely because he's Muslim. Well, this thread is supposed to be about Australian culture and the Australians I generally mix with don't go on like that.

Rex,

I'm open to challenge. Don't think here it's possible to deny the validity of others opinion.

FH does not shy from cross swords with me. I attack the substance of a Muslim mind, not any Muslim. I'd like to debate Nayeefa Chowdhury on another thread for her comments, especially after she made known her 'combat kits', that silly girl.

Even though it's long past the days I thought it was possible to change everyone else's thinking.

Honestly I couldn't care less if someone consciously chooses to worship a rock. But Islam is different from other religions in some important ways.

Not long after I came to Australia, I went to an Australia Day picnic and was astonished to see a bunch of enthusiastic Muslim youths, wearing white logo T-shirts and a friendly smile on their faces, distributing leaflets that promotes Islam. (I don't recall seeing the females wore a headscarf). You can imagine how excited those evangelical youths must be, to think Australia a new-found land for a fertile harvest of Muslim converts (especially the white ones). Having lived life in an Islamic state, I was actually quite alarmed. What's happening to Australia? I thought. I certainly would not want Australia to even be remotely Islamic, as I regard Islam the scourge of humanity.

Sadly, Islam culture co-exists with Australian culture today. It's very relevant to this thread.

A digression here- A while back I stumbled and glanced the posting of someone that (I think) argues favourably about Muslims partly because she gets on well with a bunch of Malaysian overseas students (Muslims) and was impressed by them. (Is it surprising a religious state is racist? That Malaysia is, by any Australian measure). Those overseas students no doubt are privileged and have benefited from racism. That ignorant poster makes for a singing and dancing propagandist of something she is not even aware. I regard her post insulting to people who suffer under racism in that country. If she knows I'm talking about her then perhaps she will care to educate me about her cultural perspective.

Rex,

When you say the powerbrokers of the current political cultures not having the will to implement change to better manage enviromental damage I doubt it will ever happen, no matter who is in power..Labour or Liberal..but especially not Libs, no votes in it.

You only have to look at the political landscape to see how much credibility is given to any party concerned with 'green' issues..Bob Brown for example..its pathetic.

We all think for some strange reason that its a non issue or too far into the future ,scare campaign or whatever..all the while the ice caps are melting at an alarming rate, summers getting hotter and hotter ,floods,earthquakes, tsunamis,species dissappearing due to even the subtle, but not so subtle climate changes and on it goes.

Its Ok for me and everyone on here because our children will inherit the earths anger unleashed because we and governments sat on our hands.