Some will no doubt read this and try to jump in and say that I back the policy of Multiculturalism. Well I don't... and that would be disingenuous of them to do so. Mutliculturalism encourages cultural diversity, I prefer encouraging cultural unity. A nation should be united... not divided. Division does not strengthen a society.

No doubt, when I remark on our "Anglo" roots, and that is inevitable, those same people will again jump in and say that proves we have no "Australian" culture... and that it is in fact another distortion of the truth.

One would not say that American culture is English culture, yet the US like Australia had primarily British heritage as it roots. America is not that much older than Australia either so that old flawed argument about us being a young country and having no culture... also holds no water. In fact, no country in the "Anglosphere" has an identical culture. (The Anglosphere is a group of English-speaking nations which share historical, political, and ethnocultural characteristics rooted in or attributed to the historical experience of the British people. Primarily; Australia, Britain, Canada, the United States, India, New Zealand, and South Africa.)

Is Australian culture Indian? Canadian? American? South African? etc.... The answer is clearly no. Yet we all share similarities and people from these cultures would find it easier to "fit in" to each others societies because of that sharing.

This brings us to the oft avoided... what is culture?

For the purpose of this piece, I consider the dictionary definition (below) completely appropriate.

cul·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klchr)
n.
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

Australian culture then would be those aspects and characteristics that have developed on the Australian continent and those in a form readily distinguishable from other National cultures. It would also therefore be the dominant culture of Australia and also be recognised in various "Australian" stereotypes.

I personally look at Australia as being Bi-Cultural..

We have Australia's "Indigenous" culture and Australia's "Western" culture.

Both are recognised by the majority of Australians as being... Australian. Recognition of this fact ...was displayed to the world at the 2000 Sydney Olympic, opening and closing ceremonies. The dominant culture though, the one seen and recognised world wide as being our national identity would be the Australian "Western" Culture,

Australia's national culture has obviously developed over time... and continues to develop as all cultures do. Australia's Indigenous culture comes primarily from the Aborigines and it's Western culture primarily from the British. Both cultures have over the last 200 years impacted on and shaped each other. Australia's physical lanscape and climate have also impacted on our nation's cultural development

During its formative years, "Australia" was basically a penal colony for British Convicts. These Convicts and many of those that came with them, became the first urban Australians and they subsequently laid todays cultural foundations. They shaped Australia's cultural evolution. For those suffering Anglophobia, and or cultural cringe, there is a stigma attached to our history,one which seems to inspire an obsession with foreign cultures and multiculturalism. They even attempt to deny the past, some high-moral-grounders, and cultural/social snobs, seeing it as a cultural "stain."

In fact our 'umble beginnings, IMO, have had a bigger impact on our culture than many recognise or realise. The Australian culture has historically been one, forged on the hardship of early settlers and later on the heroism of the Australian soldiers. "Mateship", or loyal fraternity, has been a central tenet. Traditionally, Australians have viewed themselves as having an egalitarian society, our obsession with the "fair go" is a direct reaction to the treatment handed handed out to our convict founders, by their "motherland."

The oft cited "tall poppy syndrome" and our disdain for the pompous, egotistical and authoritarian, is also a throwback to our past. Ever wonder why Australians nearly always barrack for the under-dog and not the most favoured?

To some people, the land Downunder, seems indeed to have things completely upside-down.

Australians being Australians, aren't usually aware of the achievements of their academics.... yet they will recognise; sportsmen, dead horses and bushrangers.
They favour humility and show disdain for braggards, here they favour the "quiet achiever"...

Australians aren't that big on ostentatious displays of patriotism, it's usually considered embarassing. They forget the words of their national anthem..... yet it would be wrong to say they are not patriotic.

These are just a few things that people from other cultures find odd and perplexing, but to Australians are completely understandable. Even to those Australians that like to distance themselves from their fellow Australians

Well said.

Dear T800
very well argued mate... I'm on the same page so its a bit hard to say much until the 'multi-cultural nutters' :) jump in and try to slice and dice your reasoned argument.

Not many of us consciously think about the rules of grammer when we speak, but boy oh boy those rules are there, and if we don't use them we are likely to be considered a moron.

Just so is culture. We don't think before we shake hands with a stranger we are introduced to "Ah..stranger...introduction... page 1, chapter 1 of Aussie culture manual."..*SHAKE HANDS*.....

Nope..we just 'live' it. Deconstructing all our learned social ques and listing them is quite a business, as we learnt them by imitation.

I totally welcome this debate and rejoice that more and more people are beginning to participate.
Cheers

Let's start a horrifyingly idiotic thread in celebration of Facism.

"We must strengthen our society!"

But why? Do you feel powerless and weak?

"We must unite!"

Against who? To what end?

"Strenght through unity!" You might chant.

"You espouse a sick and twisted ideology" I will say as I'm hauled away to be murdered by the State.

What a load of rubbish strayan.

I said... " I prefer encouraging cultural unity. A nation should be united... not divided. Division does not strengthen a society. "

What you said has no relevance to it, whatsoever.

Strayan from the truth eh...?

Speaking of which... here's some more Austrayan.

Language is one of the most recognisable cultural traits of Australians. No one here would mistake an Indian accent for an Australian accent or an American accent. In fact when "Mad Max" was made it had to be dubbed for American release, apparently they found it too hard to understand left in Australian English. Not only do Australians speak with an accent readily distinguishable from those not from Australia (even if they are unaware of it), they also have their own dialect/slang - STRINE.

Some examples;
(Most adult Australians probably use or recognise these)
Argue the toss disagree; dispute a decision.
Arvo afternoon
Barbie barbecue
Be with you in a tick attend to you shortly, in a moment, without delay.
Chokkie chocolate
Chook a chicken
Chuck a sickie take the day off from work when you're well
Digger an Australian soldier
Dinkum, fair dinkum true, real, genuine e.g. I'm a dinkum Aussie; is she/he fair dinkum?
Galah fool
Give it a burl try it, have a go
Jackaroo a male station hand , an Australian cowboy (a station is a big farm or grazing property)
Joey baby kangaroo
Lend of, to have a to take advantage of somebody's gullibility, to have someone on
Lizard drinking, flat out like a very busy
Mate buddy, friend
No-hoper somebody who'll never do well
Not the full quid not bright intellectually
No worries Expression of forgiveness or reassurance (usually the response of someone who can't see the implications of a situtation)
Ocker an unsophisticated person; an Australian
Pash a long passionate kiss
Pav Pavlova, Australian dessert using meringue, cream and fruit
Piker Someone who doesn't have a go at things, cowardly
Stickybeak nosy person
Strewth exclamation, mild oath
Walkabout gone on a trip or unable to be found
Yobbo an uncouth perso

Yep, I can go along with that T800. Well said.

“Multiculturalism encourages cultural diversity, I prefer encouraging cultural unity. A nation should be united... not divided. Division does not strengthen a society.”

Multiculture encourages tribalism. Multiculture is the most contemptuous ideology that can be forcibly shoved on a people.
But I agree with those who say our main identity was forged from our beginnings.Anyone who has read British history will appreciate that the harshness of the eighteenth century with it's enclosures etc made criminals out of decent men.
Not that all convicts were innocent little bods. But their children, the currency kids, were born free and independant.after a shakey start this nation has gone from strength to strength but it needs migrants who will carry that strength on, not migrants who want to take it back to the dark ages.
That is where the immigration people have let this country down, by bringing in unsuitable new comers who will never understand where we came from and who we are.

Sport has been a central part of the Australian experience since the country was first colonised. More than the Arts and other "high - culture" endevours Sport is a major part of the Australians ethos. Sport is culture, and nowhere more so than in Australia

The following excerpts from the SMH...

"The historian Manning Clark, for instance, regarded Australian football as the ballet of the working class. "

"The Melbourne Cup, for instance, is more than a horse race."

"It is an occasion for celebration and even excess; it is a gambling spectacle that incorporates the Australian myth of egalitarianism; it is a national festival that is idiosyncratically Australian. "

"Sport has long played an important social and cultural role in Australia, providing a form of social cement which binds communities and creates broader imagined communities. "

Remember the America's Cup in 1983? What other country has had their Prime Minister say; "I tell you what, any boss who sacks anyone for not turning up today is a bum". What other country has as it's Prime Minister a die-hard Cricket tragic?

More quotes...

"I think you are maybe the most sporting country in the world"
Juan Antoino Samaranch, Sunday Telegraph, 1999

"At the time of writing, Australia (with a population of eighteen million, remember) are world cricket champions, world Rugby Champions, world tennis champions, work netball champions, world woman's hockey champions, and world men and women surfing champions. Further, on per capita basis, Australia was by far the most outstanding performer at the 1996 Olympic Games."
Phillip Knightley, Australia: A Biography of a Nation, 2000

"Australia pretty generally beats most people at most things. Truly never has there been a more sporting nation. "
Bill Bryson, Down Under, 2000

"Failure hurts Australians particularly hard because they take sport so seriously. To Australians, sport is not just something they play in their spare time, but it is the medium through which they have to prove themselves to the rest of the world. As DH Lawrence observed "Australians play sport as though their lives depended on it"
Jonathan King, Waltzing Materialism, 1976

T800,

I'm with you. As I have said elsewhere, if multiculturalism is so good, why, after almost half a century, are we still arguing about it?

The silliest thing heard is that diverstiy is our strength. How odd! How can splitting people up into different cultures bring strength? The more alike people are, the more they get along with each other.

We have always been a multi-RACIAL society, and their is nothing wrong with that. But, there is also an Australian culture, and there has been ever since white people settled the country.

Arguments for multiculturalism move simply move around superficial, meaningless things such as cuisine and colourful streetscapes as as different people from all over the world drift around, enjoying life on the Australian dole.

This stupidity was forced on us; but they cannot force us to believe in it. Multiculturalism is 'enjoyed' by a small minority of people. Most of us ignore it, and it doesn't touch our lives - unless we allow it to.

I am with Strayan on this one.
What is wrong about Australia reflecting the many interesting cultures of the different races and ethnicities?
Why pour everybody into the same culture mould to shape them to one model?

As long as everyone living in Australia abides by Australian laws, what’s wrong with accepting and enjoying each other’s backgrounds?

Perhaps ‘we’ are still arguing about multiculturalism because some people are unwilling to relax about it and accept it!

The problems we have with multi-culturalism are not because of multi-culturalism, but because of the bad image some ‘Australian’ people have of other cultures.
Is it an Australian value to carry around a bad image about other cultures?

Change the bad image and the problem of 'still arguing about it' will disappear.

There is a whole lot more wrong with intolerance than there is with multi-culturalism.

I would think that it is not only time to move on from mono-culturism to multi-culturism, but take it even further into inter-culturism.

LOL
Now that was a funny post. Not to mention totally naive.

"What is wrong about Australia reflecting the many interesting cultures of the different races and ethnicities? "

What's wrong with Australia reflecting it's own culture?

You people seem to think it is ok for everybody else to have and preserve their ethnicity and culture but it is not Ok for Australia and Australians to have a culture. What gives?

That's hardly going to help you create your much treasured diversity now is it.

Let's have one less culture...

We call the country Australia but Australian culture is not allowed.

We can have Italian culture here, Vietnamese culture here, Chinese culture here, Turkish culture here, in fact we can have any culture here except an Australian one. These cultures already have homes; Italy, Vietnam, China, Turkey, etc,etc etc...

Try living the Australian culture in Saudi Arabia and see what it gets you.

Saudi Arabia is a multiculture denied.

Yet it seems like you want to create exactly the same conditions here in Australia based on exactly the same logic the Saudi's use to deny multiculture i.e. 'strength through cultural unity'.

T800,

Try living the Aboriginal culture in Australia and see what it gets you

Strayan as usual you like telling people what they think... yet you'll never make it as a mind-reader. You might consider going back and doing an English comprehension course too.

Rainer... why? I prefer living the Australian "western" dominant culture. Don't you? You might consider reading my topic in general before trying on strawmen. I don't mind debating the topic, but I don't like wasting my time with spurious claims and half thought out arguments. Oh and BTW I could name a few Aboriginal friends who prefer it too.

The trouble with multi-culturalism Celivia
Is that we can now have our arms and legs blown off by suicide bombers from these tribes we have allowed to take up residence in Australia if they happen to disagree strongly with Australian foreign policy towards the tribes they left behind. Obviously when they swore allegiance to Australia and the Australian people they were lying and whenever conflict breaks out with their old tribes it is obvious where their first loyalty lies.

Some of these tribes couldnt give two hoots aboutAngloAustralians or Australian culture they come here purely becaue they covert access to the wealthy resources and unending supply of land we have here. They want these resourses for themselves and their own children and Anglo Australian children dont figure in their plans at all.

We should be promoting intertribal marriage in this country or else it wont be a matter of different cultures in a century or two, it will be Australia divided up into to or three countries but not before much bloodshed

Exactly, Strayan. Australians should not dictate people what culture they should identify with.

T800
Almost all countries once basically reflected one culture because there was not much migration.

Australia is one of the countries that have never been mono-cultural. There was already Aboriginal culture before settlement of white, Western people.

Did white Western people respect and adapt to Aboriginal culture? No. They even tried to destroy it.
Why haven’t early settlers adopted Aboriginal culture? Why did they insist on keeping their own culture?
For the same reasons perhaps, other cultures want to keep their culture- they like their culture.

Throughout most of Western Europe, where almost every country used to be mono-cultural, we have seen changes as well. Large amounts of immigrants or refugees from all over the world are now living in Western European countries.
Many Western countries have become multi-cultural. The original culture hasn’t disappeared.

It cannot be denied that in some countries multi-culturalism creates more difficulties than in others; they all have to adapt and this takes some time and organisation.

The problems are not due to multi-culturalism but rather to the original inhabitants and governments.
Adapting won’t happen overnight, but gradual improvements of dealing with the issue need to be expected.

The same in Australia- Australia’s culture should not have to be threatened by other cultures.
The rise of multi-culturalism does not mean that Australian culture has to disappear.
Why do you think that Australian culture cannot be included in a multi-cultural Australia?

I basically don’t agree that multi-culturalism automatically means Australia will be divided.
The social livability of a country’s communities depends on the quality of relationships between individuals and groups of people of different cultures.
Showing some tolerance and acceptance of each other’s cultures is going to unite Australia as a whole; not accepting or tolerating other cultures is dividing Australia.
If we all reject each other’s cultures, what would that do to Australia? If we all accept each other’s cultures, then unity will be possible.

Australians, let us all rejoice...

And another thing Celivia,
Wars are not about intolerance, so you wont stop wars by being tolerant and I'm tired of hearing this incorrect assumption. Mankind is not that stupid that he wages all out war over some vague intolerance.

I heard the 60minutes reporter say Nobody wins in war. I couldnt have disagreed more. Whole countries are won in wars. (and lost).
Wheres the reward in going to war and risking being killed yourself for some vague intolerance. There has to be some big payoff somewhere most humans wouldnt get off there chair sipping their tequila if there wasnt some huge self gain somewhere.

Wars are over the land. Ask the aborogines what they want most? Landrights. What do they hate us most for? Taking the land off them.

I alread spoke to Aboriginal culture C... did you miss that?

"Did white Western people respect and adapt to Aboriginal culture?"

Would you have adapted to Aboriginal culture? Would you now? Even back then it was very primitive C. I don't think you'd have gone native. I note you talk in colours... tsk, tsk, tsk.

"Why haven’t early settlers adopted Aboriginal culture? Why did they insist on keeping their own culture?"

See above.

"For the same reasons perhaps, other cultures want to keep their culture- they like their culture."

Good, then they can stay in their own country and not migrate. The first settlers here were convicts and didn't have a choice.

"Large amounts of immigrants or refugees from all over the world are now living in Western European countries. "

Yes look at Britain and France and the Netherlands etc... seems to me they aren't all that happy about it.

"The problems are not due to multi-culturalism but rather to the original inhabitants and governments."

What a crock. Oh it's our fault is it... funny before the migrants came the cultural problems didn't exist.The rise of multi-culturalism does not mean that Australian culture has to disappear.

"Why do you think that Australian culture cannot be included in a multi-cultural Australia?"

Oh that's the Australian Australian culture right. Do you thing that Italians would be happy with having to become the Italian Italian culture? Honestly C don't be so naive.

"I basically don’t agree that multi-culturalism automatically means Australia will be divided.
The social livability of a country’s communities depends on the quality of relationships between individuals and groups of people of different cultures. "

Why not the proof is there we have hyphenated Australians and some that don't even consider themselves Australian. Perhaps you've heard of the Lebanese.

Tolerance is not acceptance C and mostly the tolerance has been all one way.

"Australians, let us all rejoice..." yes and those not wanting to be Australian can migrate.

We saved the Aborigines from the Japanese in World War 2 they couldn’t have held Australia with spears. We owe the Aborigines nothing. That debt was wiped out by the blood of our fathers and sons who saved the lives of the Aborigines from the Japanese who were much more barbaric than we were.

Many people have lost their lands to conquerors throughout history including our anglo ancestors who were overrun many times in early history and conquerors don’t give the land back. That’s what its all about the taking of the land. If ever we are confronted by an army with superior weapons then they will take this country off us and they wont be giving it back

Celivia

as a passionate proponent of 'Australian' culture it so happens that I also love Asian food :) Not much on Italian or Greek.

To focus on 'one mould' as you say is not exactly what I am on about.

The type of food you enjoy, and social company, are not the primary issues but social ethnocentrism is dodgy.

The issue is putting "Australia" before any ethnicity.

It should be beyond question that Australia has an identifiable British (in the widest sense) heritage. Primarily in language and many social customs. Where our customs are enshrined in LAW... it is not negotiable for some newcomer to change them. But some of our customs SHOULD be changed in my view.

One such custom is that of leaving crying babies in 'solitary confinement' until they simply run out of energy and stop crying.

We Aussies tend to 'call a spade a spade' while Asians will goto the utmost lengths to AVOID this. They will duck and weave in every direction before they will tell you to your face that you are a moron :) They will seek 'indirect' ways. They will 'raise questions' which are mildy suggestive of your true condition.

I think culture_change by osmosis is the best thing. We can see the benefits (in my case it was keeping babies close to parents during the first 2 yrs of life) and never had a problem with crying with 3 kids.
As long as we all interact socially, and embrace newcomers,(who in turn should embrace us, and our existing culture) it will all work out.

When I goto Malaysia, there are customs I must respect. I don't for example take a PLATEfull of food :) I take a 'MOUTH' full or 2.. self serve from the common dishes. But here.... we usually fill our plate with the amount we estimate is 'our serve' for the whole meal.

I would not expect an Asian to say "Oh..no .. don't fill my plate" to the Australian hostess, just as I should not FILL my plate when I have a meal in Malaysia.

read this. http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp

“We Aussies tend to 'call a spade a spade' while Asians will go to the utmost lengths to AVOID this. They will duck and weave in every direction before they will tell you to your face that you are a moron :) They will seek 'indirect' ways. They will 'raise questions' which are mildly suggestive of your true condition.”

Boaz, have you ever been on a thread with Proud To Be Indonesian?

Funny, Snout! ;)

T800,
I am not suggesting that we should have adapted Aboriginal culture. Even though I love Aboriginal culture, I do not have that background and do not identify with that culture- neither did the earlier settlers.
So no I wouldn’t want to adapt Aboriginal culture, neither would I want to adapt anyone else’s culture. My culture (I am Dutch) is not very different from Australian culture, so I had no difficulty adapting. I still speak Dutch at home; but I still read Dutch books as well as English. Is that so bad?
However, not everyone’s culture is similar to Australian culture.

My point is: if it is broadly accepted and supported by Australians that the early settlers did not adapt Aboriginal culture but kept their own culture here in Australia, then why do the people who support this NOT accept that other cultures want to do the same: i.e. keep their own culture?
‘Westerners’ didn’t want to adopt a culture that was already there- new immigrants/refugees might not want to keep the culture already there.

I am not saying that they should reject integration- all I am saying is that integration is possible even when different cultures are being preserved. Australia is richer for displaying many cultures- we can all enjoy and value each other’s cultures. There needs to be an effective method to integrate immigrants without taking away their culture.

I watched Four Corners yesterday about the Exclusive Brethren (EB) sect- who are AUSTRALIANS and refuse to integrate in their own country; who treat women like second-rank citizens, where child abuse has happened and was silenced, who openly vilify homosexuals, where members are being bullied. Yet, they have the support of our government.
EB pour large amounts of money into politics to support Howard and to campaign to vilify the Greens. They do not vote because ‘politics is God’s job’.

Point is, Howard attacks immigrants for not integrating- but supports Australians who do not integrate

There is nothing wrong about being patriotic persé, but I think the world would be a better place if people respected the rest of the world and its cultures as well.

It is all so easy to say: "If you don’t like Australian values (whatever they are) go back to your own country". That might be possible for immigrants, but for many refugees and asylum seekers it is impossible to go back.

Have a little heart and realise how hard it is for people from totally different cultures to have people demand they turn their back on their own culture- they do not identify with Australian culture- we need to support and help them, not stigmatise them.

Give them time and easily accessible opportunities for learning a new language, improve the integration methods and help and encourage them- not force them.

I came here from England 44 years ago. My four grandparents were French, Irish, Jewish and Scottish. My then wife and the mother of our children had German on her father's side and Portugese on her mother's. So I suppose we were multicultural before we even got here! My son's wife is Balinese and my lady friend is Japanese, so it looks like the family tradition is continuing.

One of the first things I noticed was how easy it was to fit in here. I immediately felt as if I was amongst my own kind of people, even though my early friends and acquaintancies included Australians from many racial backgrounds. I have since broadened my circle of friends to include, for example, Aboriginal and Muslim people.

I'm inclined to be broadminded, easygoing and accepting of differences, just as long as other peoples' beliefs aren't forced down my throat. In this respect, I see some apparent anomalies between what we are led to believe is typically Australian and what are some of the realities of living here.

I realised early on that most Australians are not wowsers, in fact wowsers are generally regarded with scorn and amusement. Yet we appear to be ruled by wowsers, usually of the Christian variety. Plenty of examples of that on OLO!

Another thing which surprised me was the widespread wearing of the English national dress, the man's suit and tie. This was originally a horse riding outfit for the comparatively cool English climate. It's effect here is to make men physically uncomfortable and increase the need for airconditioning, which is both expensive and harmful to the environment.

For more on this, read Body Packaging, a Guide to Human Sexual Display, by Julian Robertson. ISBN 0 333 50157 8. Julian successfully sued the Chairman and Principle of the Sydney College of the Arts for wrongful dismissal, after he was told he was not allowed to teach the concepts outlined in his book, another ridiculous example of official wowserism.

Very interesting post, Rex :)I love the word wowsers!

I was a little amused as well when I first came to Australia and men were wearing ties in the 40 degree heat! It was one of the first things we noticed that was 'different'.

One little 'clash' with the school I had was when my daughter started kindergarten and I didn't understand the uniform rules (there are no school uniforms in The Netherlands).

I sent her in open sandals to school because it was about 36 degrees C. I really found it hard to believe when I was told that she had to come to school in socks and closed shoes! I thought it was like abuse- what kind of parents in their right mind would make their kids wear socks and closed shoes in this heat? I refused to do that, that first summer. In year 1 my daughter wanted 'to be like the others' so we went out and bought the bl@@dy socks and shoes.

I mean, who cares in this heat- it is more important to feel comfortable!

I'll put this book on my 'to read' list!

I think it's way past time that pro-Multiculturalists started to say what the benefits of the policy are... or is as the case may be.
It's also about time they explained why it's better than Integration or Assimilation.

So instead of the cutsey no substance stuff I've just read through how about you lot put your thinking caps on and come up with something substantial for a change.

T800, all this writing you do and you never define what australian culture is...unless your confusing it with white privlidge?...which is why you can't define this glorified mono-culture you apparently practice..never deviating from the path..being culturally 'Australian' 24/7[deleted for flaming].

ROTFLMAO....

Excuse me?

It seems Rainer your read but fail to comprehend.
[Deleted for flaming.]

To define....

That's precisely the problem, your either one way or the other.

Australian or not.

Being Australian means you eat pies, speak English, love this country.

Migrants don't do that?
Under 'assimilation' elderly relatives were told to 'shuttup'by commuters on public trains when speaking another language. They quickly learnt to assimilate.
Luckily for my parents they migrated under 'multiculturalism' and my mother was provided with services such as English classes, Migrant resource centre to help her find work whilst learning the language, and other community contacts to help her start a new life. She also quickly learnt English
She doesn't think Australians are really racist, but my elderly relatives do. They still don't speak Greek in public. How sad

Multiculturalism is more than a policy, it is an ideology. To believe that anothers cultural rights are equal to yours, even in your country. Other bloggers have pointed out to me that 'MultiC. is dead anyway', maybe it is, like most discourses they change over time.

Do we really want to walk down the 'assimilate' avenue again? Conform or perish. Concealing it as patriotism will not do any good either. The debate is not about Culture vs. Patriotism (the debate over that is old too - we can maintain Hybrid self-identities) Let's make the debate about how we are going to go about this 'Australian values' business...without compromising our diversity and tolerance

A country without that, is not worth living in for me.

Well not that I can see the comment you are commenting about anymore Jules, but I think it may have been about me providing a definition for Culture. (How is that flaming?)

But this topic is about the Australian culture something it seems you have avoided commenting on.

The POLICY of Mutliculti is not an ideology, it's a social experiment, otherwise it's effects would be theoretical and not physical. English lessons were provided under Integration. No need for Multiculti. Most migrants didn't even support it. Didn'y you know that?

Most people my parents and grandparents came across, wouldn't have told yours to "shut up"... you like Snout seem to hang your beliefs on small incidents in their lives. Or things that aren't or weren't as widespread as they make out.

So, if you'd like to address the topic, I'd be only too happy to debate it.

Mult. began as a political policy, but it's intentions were very much ideological. It was not only building infustructure to cater for different cultural considerations (such as the services I mentioned previsouly) but it was promoted as a way of thinking in education institutions, children were taught to accept differences, primarily cultural differences.
The ideology of this political policy was an attempt to progress from the society where children were taunted at schools because of cultural differences, because that was the environment everywhere else too.
You can minimise the ideological effects of political policies such as 'assimilation' in fact you can pretend they never happened. People weren't racist in Australia to migrants, in fact they still aren't. Heck did Cronulla even happen?

Your right the point isn't trying to define political policies, ideological ones or their effects for that matter.
The point is, what is Australian culture?

To me its a young culture with a strong colonial past. It is a very much an Anglo-Australia, and the prescence of this Imperialism still battles on in todays politics. I admire the strength of Anglo mainstream culture, I suppose it is remnants of the resiliance of their ancestry.

I think about the Indegenous Australians, and how they have been completely forgotten, their experiences hardly remembered, their religion discussed like a fairy-tale story ( 'The Dream time') Their connection with the land not understood, and hence their place within Australian identity is left hollow.

t800 do not preach to me that you know migrants who did not want multiculturalism, I do too. I know migrants that are racist also that doesn't mean anything.

I have previously mentioned that the most migrants I know, will not return to their country of birth, they love Australia.

That is the Australian culture to me.

So what is Australian culture?

I have already mentioned how surprised I was 44 years ago to find so many men wearing suits and ties in century heat. Nothing much has changed in that respect. For business, partying, even calling the footy, why dress like you're going to a cool climate funeral? So much for the oft-mentioned individuality!

My first wife looked great in a string bikini. She could wear it to a council pool in the north of England without incident. 44 years ago, I was told she would be ordered off the beach if she dared to dress like that. Well, she wore it anyway. Were we integrating, or bucking the system?

I didn't smoke, or drink beer. But I loved how cheap the wine was. Hey, wait a minute, wine's for Europeans isn't it?

Our favourite restaurant in Leeds, Yorkshire, was Italian. We went to a good Chinese place as well. Great, we could eat that kind of food here too.

So who represents Australian culture? Surely not John Howard, meanness personified. How about Tony Abbott? Personal religious beliefs before representational impartiality. I could criticise some from the other side too, but enough of politics.

I've lived in inner city, suburban and outer-suburban Perth and Fremantle. Also Port Hedland, Dampier and Darwin. And I've travelled on business and worked in the bush all over WA and NT. I've met lots and lots of great Australians from a whole variety of racial and cultural backgrounds. Not all spoke much English, but so what, we got on fine.

What I don't appreciate [and I think this is the real issue] is being told what to do, or not do, from an illogical, unsubstantiated, often religious point of view. But for many who, even in egalitarian Australia, consider themselves to be our betters, it's considered OK to push some of the more narrow-minded Christian stuff down our throats. Then the same people scream blue murder if some of the Muslim migrants try to emulate them.

Quiet here since yesterday!

T800
What is nonsubstantial about the point that the Howard govt supports one group of Australians (EB) who don't integrate, but criticises another group (immigrants) for not integrating. What about the double standards, T800?

And I thought that the word “wowsers” also has a lot of relevant substance :+)

You may call Multiculturism ‘dead’- but monoculturism sounds like something prehistoric.
If you are arguing for a monocultural country, then you are fighting for something that does not exist anymore in developed, democratic Western countries.
You are glorifying something that only exists in a number of countries of which, ironically, the cultures you seem to be rejecting. You are copying the values from the very cultures that you bag. How funny!

Why do I value multiculturalism/interculturalism?
Because I value freedom of choice. Why would I want one group to dictate another group how to live? Why do you want that, T800? Do you like dictatorship?

Multiculturalism is here to stay, whether people like it or not.

Perhaps I haven’t made myself clear enough: I am not against integration, but integration doesn’t mean people should have to give up their own culture.
There may be some aspects within a culture that will have to go in Australia when these aspects don’t fall within Australian law, but why should whole cultures have to go? There is so much to gain and learn from all these cultures.

Equal relations between Australia’s many different cultures are just as valuable as equal relationships between individuals. There is so much focus on cultural differences- there are many cultural similarities as well we can use as a basis. For instance, simply- we are all people with rights, no matter what background we have come from.

As BOAZ says, social interaction is important. This is all about exchange. Teaching each other and learning from one another, finding common interests, sharing ideas etc. We have lots of space within Australian culture (whatever that may be, exactly, to embrace other cultures as well.
Much to learn we all still have!

Rainier,
I am curious too about what the definition of Australian culture is. And what Australian values are also a very vague concept. Even Howard seems to confuse Christian values with Australian values.

Jules21,
“Multiculturalism is more than a policy, it is an ideology. To believe that anothers cultural rights are equal to yours, even in your country. Other bloggers have pointed out to me that 'MultiC. is dead anyway', maybe it is, like most discourses they change over time.”
I agree, everything changes. If monoculturism is prehistoric and multiculturalism is dead, perhaps the ‘new’ culture term that reflects the change should be ‘interculturalism’. I spotted the use of this term somewhere, and thought it was a good update.

Rex
“…why dress like you're going to a cool climate funeral? So much for the oft-mentioned individuality!”
Funny! Exactly- and it’s often the ‘suit and tie types’ who comment that it is ‘ridiculous’ for muslim women to wear their hijabs in Australia’s climate.

Thanks to this thread I am enjoying a bit of nostalgia about my early time in Australia, learning about the new culture I had ventured into.

The friendly Aussie who invited me to "Have a beer mate".
I don't drink beer thanks.
You're talking about that Pommie muck. You'll LOVE ours!
[No offence intended or taken.]

Being told that, at Aussie barbecues, the men gathered around the keg whilst the girls got together and talked about the kids. Well, as a non-beer drinker I would have been out of place around the keg and anyway I was happier talking to the girls [not about their kids of course] than talking to the men about jobs, cars and footy.

Discovering the meaning of having a naughty. Well, you can use the romantic term, making love. Or the down-to-earth [literally perhaps] having sex. But having a naughty?

As a ballroom dancer, I found that men who enjoyed this activity in Australia were sometimes suspected of being gay. This was never a problem to me, BTY. I'm comfortable with my heterosexuality and also comfortable in the company of gay friends. But why would men who enjoy absolutely the best way of meeting girls which has ever been invented be thought of as maybe gay? I was talking about this recently with a friend of about 25 to 30 and he told me that some of his mates still have this attitude.

Well, we could cover it all with the uniquely Australian term "no worries", I suppose. But wait a minute, that's what the Poms say too.
And the Indonesians: Tidak marsala.
And the Balinese: Sing ken ken.
And the Japanese: Mon di ni.

Who was it said, "Nothing new under the sun"?

Seems people like Rex and Cel don't bother to read topics properly or read stuff after being asked to so.

I'll post all the stuff from the beginning for them.

This brings us to the oft avoided... what is culture?

For the purpose of this piece, I consider the dictionary definition (below) completely appropriate.

cul·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klchr)
n.
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

Australian culture then would be those aspects and characteristics that have developed on the Australian continent and those in a form readily distinguishable from other National cultures. It would also therefore be the dominant culture of Australia and also be recognised in various "Australian" stereotypes.

I personally look at Australia as being Bi-Cultural..

We have Australia's "Indigenous" culture and Australia's "Western" culture.

Both are recognised by the majority of Australians as being... Australian. Recognition of this fact ...was displayed to the world at the 2000 Sydney Olympic, opening and closing ceremonies. The dominant culture though, the one seen and recognised world wide as being our national identity would be the Australian "Western" Culture,

Australia's national culture has obviously developed over time... and continues to develop as all cultures do. Australia's Indigenous culture comes primarily from the Aborigines and it's Western culture primarily from the British. Both cultures have over the last 200 years impacted on and shaped each other. Australia's physical lanscape and climate have also impacted on our nation's cultural development

Oh and feel free to define any culture you'd like and I'll explain the equivalents in the Australian one for you.

T800,

The problem with the topic is that it's actually two topics that don't necessarily follow. Of course Australia has a culture (and arguably a lot more than one or even two)- the question most people are interested in is what is the content of that culture or cultures. You can't say you've answered that by providing a dictionary definition of what "culture" in general is (we know), and listing a few stereotypes, or eccentricities of the language. It's a lot more than that.

The second question about whether multiculturalism is something we need or not is an important one, but the way you've framed the question makes it look like support for multiculturalism rests on the assumption we don't have a culture.

Sorry Snout can't agree it's about Australia having a culture already and not needing many cultures to fill a void that doesn't exist. Do you get it now?

T800
You are saying that:
*Australia is a bi-cultural nation.*

Do you realise that there are many different indigenous cultures, each speaking their own language? So to start with, Aboriginal culture is multicultural.

Australia was already multicultural before settlers even got here. Early settlers merely added one more culture.

You also say that *There are no voids to fill- there is no need or space for more than these two cultures.*

Speaking about voids- if you took Australia’s many cultures away you would create a void. Then there would be voids to fill. Multiculturalism is a limitless concept.

If you look at the average Public High School, depending on their locations, these are examples of communities that can include many different cultures.

Last night I was at my son’s Public Highschool for a Year 12 presentation.

To my delight, the principal allocated part of his speech to discuss the large cultural differences at this school.
He said that he was proud of a large amount of cultures at the school.
He thanked the pupils that they all, without difficulties, had been keen and open to learn from and teach each other about their different cultures, and that they had accepted and respected each other’s cultures throughout the six years of HS.

He then advised that the pupils leaving school take this experience into their future.
He said to keep learning, to keep respecting, to keep accepting the differences of the many different cultures they got to know during HSchool years and the new cultures they would meet in their future, whether it be at further study places, workplaces or social contacts.
He said not to reject, but to learn and understand.

I thought this was a beautiful speech from a man wearing a tie ;)
My son has learnt much more than ‘just’ the subjects.

There are three main Australian cultures. There is the aboriginal culture, the city culture and the best is -out in the agricultural and back blocks culture. Thats where the people are real.
The city people are mostly newcomers, the rest are a copy of elsewhere.
The aboriginals are living in their own world.
But the country folk are the dinki di Aussies. Believe me.

Thanks for the clarification, T800. If what you’re saying is that we don’t need to import culture in order to plug some supposed void, then you have no argument from me, except to point out that filling such a vacuum (real or supposed) was never the intent or purpose of multiculturalism. Which is why I think it’s two separate discussions. I think the premise you’ve outlined is a bit of a straw man.

Rex and Celivia, thanks for sharing your insights and experience as migrants. Strayan, I suspect you might have been on the money with your first post. My guess is that any argument I get into here is going to be circular, so I think I’ll take T800’s advice and migrate (to another thread).

It's been quiet because I got suspended for posting nothing more than what it seems others are allowed to.

"Why do I value multiculturalism/interculturalism?
Because I value freedom of choice. Why would I want one group to dictate another group how to live? Why do you want that, T800? Do you like dictatorship?"

Then migrate to the native country of the culture you wish to live. leave Australia to Australians.

"Multiculturalism is here to stay, whether people like it or not. "

Like any government policy it can be dropped or changed. hell it's already been changed at least 3 times.

" I am not against integration, but integration doesn’t mean people should have to give up their own culture. "

No and it never did SO MULTICUTURALISM WAS UNNECESSARY.

"There may be some aspects within a culture that will have to go in Australia when these aspects don’t fall within Australian law, but why should whole cultures have to go? There is so much to gain and learn from all these cultures."

Empty rhetoric. care to posts some examples?

" Australian culture (whatever that may be, exactly, to embrace other cultures as well.
Much to learn we all still have!"

Well I posted stuff you could obviously learn from Cel. Obviously unread?
Thanks to this thread I am enjoying a bit of nostalgia about my early time in Australia, learning about the new culture I had ventured into.

Rex, you need to get out more and stop addressing stereotypes as if all Australians are exactly the same. We are talking about a National culture not individual behaviours.

Australian culture then would be those aspects and characteristics that have developed on the Australian continent and those in a form readily distinguishable from other National cultures. It would also therefore be the dominant culture of Australia and also be recognised in various "Australian" stereotypes

"Do you realise that there are many different indigenous cultures, each speaking their own language? So to start with, Aboriginal culture is multicultural. "

Nationally we have Australia's "Indigenous" culture and Australia's "Western" culture.

Both are recognised by the majority of Australians as being... Australian. Recognition of this fact ...was displayed to the world at the 2000 Sydney Olympic, opening and closing ceremonies. The dominant culture though, the one seen and recognised world wide as being our national identity would be the Australian "Western" Culture.

Individuals... if you like Cel, have their own cultures, but they are not Nationally identified cultures.

"Australia was already multicultural before settlers even got here. Early settlers merely added one more culture."

AUSTRALIA didn't exist then Cel. Oh and Cel there were many intertirbal wars and look where the Aboriginal culture and Aboriginals are today? Your argument defeats itself.

"You also say that *There are no voids to fill- there is no need or space for more than these two cultures.*"

Misquoting and misinterpretation eh. Can you pls show where I said that? I'll be happy to go on after you do.

"Rex, you need to get out more and stop addressing stereotypes as if all Australians are exactly the same. We are talking about a National culture not individual behaviours"

I need to get out more, do I?

I've had a varied work career in Australia. A few labouring and unskilled jobs, then worked my way up to departmental office manager, working mainly with Australians.

Went to Dampier when it was still a work camp to get money in a hurry. Met Australians and migrants from everywhere imaginable.

Then company rep, at various times covering Perth city and suburbs, the Wheatbelt and the South West.

Lived in Port Hedland, covering the Pilbara and Kimberleys for the same company. Did business with every possibility, from major mining companies to isolated country stores.

Joined an insurance company. Covered Perth city and suburbs, the Goldfields and South West, Carnarvon plantations, Pilbara and Kimberleys. Talked to anyone who would listen, sign their name and pay cash or cheque.

Became Wheatbelt manager. Called on farmers, shearers etc. [I know what you mean about country people, Mickijo, they're great.]

Went up to Darwin after Cyclone Tracy to help out with the extra insurance work. Became NT manager. My clients included govt heads of dept, senior police officers and bikies. The Renegades clubhouse was open door to me.

I've lived in workcamps. Worked on building sites and mine sites and in logging towns. My clients and friends have included Australians and New Australians from every conceivable background. Aboriginal people, descendants of Afghan cameleers, fifth generation Chinese, you name it.

Socialised with my country clients at the speedway, the footy ball etc.

My second wife and I were members of the German Club, the Airforce Club and the Malaysian-Singapore-Australian Society, also went to the Austrian Club, Hellenic Association, Dutch Club, Spanish Club and Perth and Fremantle Italian Clubs. Why? Because when the music started, they all danced.

[Cont}

My second wife, who was English, learned Belly Dancing. She was already an accomplished ballroom dancer and became very good at it. She also looked the part. She danced at many functions where the majority of patrons were from the Eastern Mediteranean, Middle East or North Africa. Most of them were pretty much like most Australians. If they'd been stuffy b00gers, they wouldn't have been there, would they?

I lost my wife a few years ago, but have been fortunate to meet a delightful Japanese lady, who is also a trained Ballroom/Latin dancer. We dance 4 or 5 times most weeks. Through a friend of Emiko, who does traditional Japanese performances, I am now seeing something new to me, in fact I assisted as compere at a Japanese display just recently.

And when Emiko's friend Suzui throws a party, which she just loves to do, most people there are "Australian Australians", but the rest of the guests are like the United Nations [except they don't argue and veto one another!]

Yes, I really should start getting out more, shouldn't I?

Rex,
I think T800 will have to let you pass with flying colours ;)
My husband and I also go to ballroom dancing lessons and go dancing at the club. We also are learning Rock&Roll atm, and I have also bellydanced for about 2 years. It’s good fun, healthy exercise and through dancing we meet many people from many nationalities. A very multicultural thing to do ;)

T800
I see many benefits of a multicultural society. A multicultural society is made up by different communities in where all individuals and organisations can contribute to our society. All these communities and their individual residents have equal rights and responsibilities. All have access to government services.
If all communities have the opportunity to be strong communities, this will lead to a strong nation. It will also lead to a safer Australia.

Isolating certain cultures and their communities does nothing to make Australia more secure.

In a nation where cultures of some communities are being neglected or isolated, communities cannot become strong and this may have a negative effect on the nation as a whole. It also may breed unhappiness and anger.

Acceptance is warm and understanding- and unites a country rather than divides it.

BTW When I came to Australia, I was surprised to find that Australia was so ‘Americanised’. I hadn't expected that.
Australians hate to hear this, but the fact is that Australia is Americanised because we are all bombarded with American images, movies and products every day and this has an influence on Australian culture.
Australian culture is being influenced by American culture.

Perhaps a multicultural nation is better than an American culture- what do you think?

You know considering the forum rules it's difficult answering every "dissenter" here. Every extra commenter should get a proper reply.
Rex, big deal buddy, It doesn't explain your narrow stereotyping of Australians as a whiole does it? Or why you ignore everything i've already written or the fact most people who have commented, agree with me here, not you.

So Cel when are you going to answer my question? Are you avoiding it?

T800
Does Australia not have a multicultural policy? I thought they have! Correct me if I’m wrong. Anyway, have a look on the CMA (Council for Multicultural Australia) website.

The fact that there is a multicultural policy… doesn’t that mean that Australia is a multicultural nation?
Why do you tell people to leave Australia if they love this multicultural country?
Perhaps people who do not like this wonderful, multicultural, ‘lucky’ country should leave and find a mono or bicultural nation. Good luck in fnding one, as I said the vast majority of Western, developed countries, have adopted a multicultural policy.
As I said before and I repeat now in case you missed it:
You are glorifying something that only exists in a number of countries of which, ironically, the cultures you seem to be rejecting. You are copying the values from the very cultures that you bag. How funny!

Did I misinterpret what you said about the ‘no voids to fill’ thing? Sorry if I did, then I apologise.
If you didn’t mean to say that, what did you try to say then? That there IS a void that can be filled by other cultures?

To be honest, I am not enjoying this conversation- not because or the difference of opinions because that’s the whole point of a discussion forum. But because you turn your thread and this basically interesting topic in such a battlefield. It seems to be more of an ego thing than a fair discussion.

So I take this opportunity to take Snout’s example, and go to some thread where people are able to act a bit more civil.
I am willing to agree to disagree.
I won’t be reading this thread anymore- have fun.

“You also say that *There are no voids to fill- there is no need or space for more than these two cultures.*

Speaking about voids- if you took Australia’s many cultures away you would create a void. Then there would be voids to fill. Multiculturalism is a limitless concept. “

As usual you avoid the fact that Australia as a nation cannot be made up of other Nations cultures. Italy is not made up of Russian, American, Australian, Indonesian…. etc cultures now is it. Neither is Holland. In fact being Dutch heritage you’d be aware of their changes in attitude lately wouldn’t you.

He said that he was proud of a large amount of cultures at the school.
He thanked the pupils that they all, without difficulties, had been keen and open to learn from and teach each other about their different cultures, and that they had accepted and respected each other’s cultures throughout the six years of HS.

“I see many benefits of a multicultural society. A multicultural society is made up by different communities in where all individuals and organisations can contribute to our society. All these communities and their individual residents have equal rights and responsibilities. All have access to government services.”

So what are these contributions that only multiculturalism brings Cel? I’m still waiting for an answer to that one. As for government services… yes Multiculti is a very expensive policy to support. It costs us Billions of dollars to prop it up.

“If all communities have the opportunity to be strong communities, this will lead to a strong nation. It will also lead to a safer Australia.”

How so? How does division make for a strong united society? How are we safer? I note recently we’ve had Muslims arrested for plotting against the country they live in. The Vietnamese made their Cabramatta enclave the drug capital of Australia. These are good things and make us safer?

“Isolating certain cultures and their communities does nothing to make Australia more secure. “

No it doesn’t does it. Pity they don’t integrate or assimilate.

“In a nation where cultures of some communities are being neglected or isolated, communities cannot become strong and this may have a negative effect on the nation as a whole. It also may breed unhappiness and anger. “

Muslims are taught not to become part of the Australian society. Western ideals are not Muslim ideals. Even last week we were told this by a representative of the Muslim community on insight. I’ve personally witnessed it from various “communities” over many years. Even Greeks and Italians a have traditionally married “their own”. Some ethnicities even send children HOME to marry.

“Acceptance is warm and understanding- and unites a country rather than divides it.”

TOLERANCE is the policy Cel, NOT ACCEPTANCE. Yet all this tolerance seems to be a one way street.

“BTW When I came to Australia, I was surprised to find that Australia was so ‘Americanised’. I hadn't expected that.”

You saying you can’t tell the difference between Australia and Australians from America and Americans? I can. BTW the big change in that direction came with the influx of Filipinos in the 80s. Clarke Airforce base and the Yanks have a lot to answer for. I note that the Lebanese these days are the ones big on CAR culture and American hip-hop etc, etc, etc…

“Australians hate to hear this, but the fact is that Australia is Americanised because we are all bombarded with American images, movies and products every day and this has an influence on Australian culture.
Australian culture is being influenced by American culture.”

All cultures that meet are influenced by each other Cel. We have a lot less British programming on TV these days. I don’t see the point in importing MANY cultures here… that just makes things worse.

“Perhaps a multicultural nation is better than an American culture- what do you think?”

You anti-American Cel? How come? I don’t want Australians to become American. But I can think of other cultures I’d prefer less.

“Does Australia not have a multicultural policy? I thought they have! Correct me if I’m wrong.”

Yes it does, One foisted upon it unasked for from the vast majority. Evcen the migrant groups never asked for it. Didn’t you know some groups don’t like other groups. Serbs and Croats for examples. Lebanese Christians and Lebanese Muslims, are just 2 examples. Greeks and Macedonians… should I go on?

“The fact that there is a multicultural policy… doesn’t that mean that Australia is a multicultural nation?”

Gee what were we before Fraser brought it in? What will we be when we change the policy?

“Why do you tell people to leave Australia if they love this multicultural country?”

If thy love Australia so much and want to be Australians then they won’t want it to be something else then will they. They will become Australians and live the Australian culture. Otherwise Cel they aren’t being Australian are they. They are still being Italiand or Greek or Vietnamese… only they live in Australia.

Sorry you are “not enjoying this conversation” can’t say I have been either. Too many misconceptions and misquoting for my likes. If you feel this is a “battlefield” perhaps it is because you cant handle people posting facts you find difficult to deal with. Facts you find conflict with your pov. Well that’s what debating is about.

Some migrants don't like other migrants as different nations have different feuds. The examples you have provided indeed reveal that racial divisions are not only a characteristic of Australian society. They reflect the sad nature of humanity and conflicted discourses.

That doesn't prove anything to demerit Australians' attitudes of cultural tolerance; instead it makes up a significant aspect of the 'values' that we profess to idealize over other 'non-western' nations.
We have a country where Greeks and Macedonians migrated, built livelihoods all while living next door to each other. In Australia children of Lebanese migrants whether Islamic or Christian belief, are educated together in schools. The same can be said about Serbs and Croats. Of course there may very well be tension between these cultures even when living in Australia but this is not the ‘Australian way’, and migrants who do not uphold discrimination laws are quickly labeled as being ‘un-Australian’.

(cont)

(cont)

On a personal note, the knowledge and understanding I have gained from being an Australian was only tested on traveling overseas. It was obvious that compared to my extended family, the way I perceived individuals was starkly different. They held racial grudges towards people they had never met, or been effected by, but based purely on the environment, political ideologies that shaped the country. I was able to contribute a viewpoint they had never heard before, (or could have imagined to have heard) coming from someone who shared their cultural identity. In fact, I shared stories of how many of ‘these’ people were friends of mine in Australia, and how I was often welcomed and exposed to their homes and customs.
They were bewildered. The conclusions they made about this obvious ‘cultural acceptance’ was that Australia was a nation of progress. They saw my viewpoint but in no way agreed with it, and declared that type of social harmony was impossible to achieve in most countries. Australia had done it.

I am proof of it. Ghassan Hage (in an article posted on this site) explained that after migrating to Australia realized his racist tendencies and after a period of time his views evolved into something variably different.

There is no need to compromise this for a sudden political urge to create these ‘Australian’ values. The irony is in order to preserve this ‘culture’ and these ‘values’ we are told we need to define it, or else… risk losing our political credibility on a global and humanitarian scale.

Well that allows us to define what it’s NOT to be Australian? American !

"That doesn't prove anything to demerit Australians' attitudes of cultural tolerance;"

Doesn't prove that with the sudden policy change to Multiculti, that somehow oernight Australians became culturally tolerant. In fact if anything it shows that that tol;erance or apathy was part of the Australian culture already... she'll be right mate, no worries.

"In Australia children of Lebanese migrants whether Islamic or Christian belief, are educated together in schools. The same can be said about Serbs and Croats. Of course there may very well be tension between these cultures even when living in Australia but this is not the ‘Australian way’, and migrants who do not uphold discrimination laws are quickly labeled as being ‘un-Australian’. "

Too right ntey are, but it doesn't stop their behaviour. These days the Lebanese in particular are proving this. The cracks are getting bigger.

"There is no need to compromise this for a sudden political urge to create these ‘Australian’ values."

They already exist as I have shown.

"The irony is in order to preserve this ‘culture’ and these ‘values’ we are told we need to define it, or else… risk losing our political credibility on a global and humanitarian scale."

Australians are already defined. Already recognisable globally. Only those who don't accept that or don't want to be part of that deny it.

Yes indeed - there is an Australian culture but like all cultures it too has diseases.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have recently issued a warning about a new virulent strain of Sexually Transmitted Disease. The disease is contracted through dangerous and high-risk behavior.

The disease is called Gonorrhea Lectim and pronounced "gonna re-elect him."

Many victims contracted it in 2004, after having been screwed for the past 10 years. Cognitive characteristics of individuals infected include:

Anti-social personality disorders
(especially whilst on the beach)
Delusions of grandeur with Messianic overtones
Extreme cognitive dissonance, inability to incorporate new
information, pronounced xenophobia and paranoia
Inability to accept responsibility for own actions
Cowardice masked by misplaced bravado
Uncontrolled facial smirking
Ignorance of geography and Australian history
Tendencies towards evangelical theocracy
Categorical all-or-nothing behavior

Naturalists and epidemiologists are amazed at how this destructive disease originated only a few years ago from a bush found in Texas and here in Australia , a shrub in Canberra.

They have warned us to take extreme care when handling ballot papers in 2007

Cutlure is a living moving mirror of the society.
Its not a 'fixed in time' locked object or set of values and traditions.

Aussie culture like anything else is subject to the natural laws of cultural evolution and Australia is in control because its an immigration country: attracting the qualified and academics will yield different results than with letting in the uneducated.

Look at the US culture today as a result of attracting the world's best skills and brains.

Fellow_Human,

Your statements are false.

The Islam cutlure has a 'fixed in time' frame of reference and set of values.

Even if different Muslims practise it a little differently, there is a never ceasing 'pull factor' towards a central theme.

That's why Muslims do not integrate into another culture but tend to destroy and overwhelm others' culture over time.

Please details what are 'the natural laws of cultural evolution'? Are they laws that you made up?

GZ Tan,

Islam is a religion although it influenced many cultures such as Arabic and European. You need to move on from your grudge to have a constructive opinion.

PS: There is no 'correct' or 'false' in opinions. Are you still at school?

Fellow_Human,

FH said: "There is no correct or false in opinions".

Is this another 'LAW' that you just made up, after attending school yesterday?

Obviously you didn't like my earlier comments. You think they are non-contructive, grudging? Is that your way of saying my opnions are incorrect or false?

Unlike you, I am quite able to take a few steps back and have a fresh look at things.
After half a year of absence, not much have changed. You in particular, just the same evasive person, never intellectually capable of responding to challenges.

I have a technical background and so I do not use the word LAW (as in laws of physics) in a flippant manner, unlike you.

Islam asides, here now is another direct challenge for you.

Please explain what are your claim of 'natural laws of cultural evolution'? Are they laws that you made up?

GZ Tan,

Too hot under the collar again. OK, let me try and step up to your IQ.

A basic definition of a culture is a set of habits, traditions and social rythms (I will avoid ‘law’ since you are allergic) that dominates the society and mutually influence it.

Here is an example on Australia:

Australian culture moved from aboriginal to Anglo (ie colonies cultures) where a set of habits and traditions were widely accepted. In the same token, other traditions were considered alien and / or unpopular. Smoking was a good thing, drink driving was OK and the ‘normal’ woman was the one who stayed at home and looked after the kids. Sunday church was a must and pre-marriage baby was not on.

50 years later we evolved. With growth, migrant intake, growing awareness of the environment and better understanding of the world around us, above set of habits and traditions have drastically changed. In today’s cultural definition, an Australian would travel more, read more, eat & wear colorful food and clothes, don’t smoke as often and don’t drink and drive. They can be secular or religious, married or living together.

Both are Australian culture with probably 50 years a part. The simple point is everything evolves

FH did you ever bother to read this topic from the top?
Maybe you should and a few things will become clearer for you.
I've already defined culture and explained quite a bit about ours.
Do try not wasting everybody's time with half thought out repeats.

FH,

I don't have a problem if someone correctly states a 'law' scientifically and logically, which you are not able to do.

Your Australian example is pathetic and simply show you've lost the plot.

How about painting a couple of scenarios on Islamic cultural evolution, based on your non-existence 'natural laws of cultural evolution', that everything evolves:-

(1). After 500 years, the 'holy' month of Ramadan will be pretty much like X'mas with Father Ramadan riding a camel in shopping centres giving out lollies to singing and cheering children. Needless to say fasting in hunger will be optional then.

(2). After another 500 years, Muslim pilgrims will have the choice of going to either Mecca or Beijing, a second holy city due to Asian cultural influence.

If you think the above Islamic cultural evolution can never happen, no matter how long, then why not? Can you think of one possible cultural evolution in Islam?

Very simple, like I said earlier Islam cutlure is 'fixed in time'. It does NOT and will NOT evolve (not unless Quran is re-intepreted from time to time, which will never happen either).

That's why there can be no such thing as 'natural laws of cultural evolution'. You did not think deep enough.

Hence just like I mentioned:-

"Muslims do not integrate into another culture but tend to destroy and overwhelm others' culture over time" !!

T800,

Yes I read your comments and few of the others.
I just can’t see any culture as mono or Bi.
Australia in essence have a relaxed outback, outdoors culture which is very Mediterranean. It also has strong relations, ties and migration from Asia and its gradually changing the demography with mixed marriages and rise of Asian life style and religious practises.
I think Australian’ culture is moving towards a HongKong type of culture.
Time will tell,

GZ Tan,

Inside the usual grudge, there is one nugget you mentioned which I agree with and I believe many Muslims do: ‘The Quran need to be re-interpreted from time to time in modern context”. When the Quran was re-interpreted in the context of innovation and research Muslims experienced their enlightenment almost 4 centuries before Europe.
I agree.

I am not so concerned with who celebrates what. In 50 years time If Australians will chose to become Bhuddists (as per the ABS stats) then we will celebrate chinese new year. In your scenario if they chose Islam then we will celebrate Ramadan, moer holidays on top of Christmas, whats your problem?

FH,

Call mine a grudge because you can never truthfully face up to how vile your own religion is.

What's my problem? As if you have difficulty grasping the obvious. So let me reiterate:-

1. Islam culture is 'fixed in time'. It does NOT and will NOT evolve, because

2. Quran will never, can never be re-interpreted, (trust my insight on this) and therefore,

3. Muslims do not integrate into another culture but tend to destroy and overwhelm others' culture over time.

Whilst sin entered the world during Adam & Eve times, evil entered the world through Muhammad. The Byzantine Empire Emperor made his most accurate observation back in the 14th Century.

Why don't you show some backbones and kick start a working committee to re-interpret the Quran and see how far you will get, instead of white-washing your religion every time.

Actions are meaningful, not vain hope and empty talk of pretense.

Australia has three cultures.The Aboriginal culture first and foremost, the white settler/convict culture and all the others who have come to our shores since.

To say T800 ,that Aboriginal people you know like the dominant western culture ,even prefer it is a nonsense..How the bloody hell would they know ay?They had their country ripped away from them and watched the mass genocide of most of their ancestors take place within a very recent history in the timeline that is Australias recent past ,a little over 200 years ago.

No arguement here makes any real sense as most every poster has almost completely ignored the existence of 60,000.00 yrs plus of Indigenous ownership.

It has not been given due consideration and placed in its rightful context as the traditional owners being the most responsible guardians of this country..in a space of 200 yrs the 'dominant culture' has poisoned every river..hacked up the forests..eroded preciuos topsoils..burnt a hole in the ozone layer..refuse the Kyoto protocol conditions..our reef is in peril..our wildlife..mate this is 'dominant culture' at work? the one you so proudly espouse on here?

Sixty thousand years of Indigenous culture and this land saw the 'dominant culture' inherent a pristine land and now this devastation?

Id like to know if poisoning our air and water makes us the smart culture...Id like to see just how dumb the white man really can be.

The black man knows you respect your country he takes care of you.

YARECKON
there is a story you might be interested in. Its about Greenland or Iceland, I forget which. Some Europeans arrived to see if they could settle there. The indigenous people told them "You have to be careful about such and such, and watch out for this and that" .. mainly related to food I think. Well the arrogant Europeans simply laughed off these 'ignorant savages' and paid the price by all dying out as a direct result of ignoring the locals.

Yes, we Europeans have made an almighty stuffup of a lot here. Much of what 'looked and seemed good' like massive re-direction of the Snowy, and its irrigation outcomes in the Murray and Golbourn valleys....great short term result, but has simply caused a long term salination problem.
We are so smart that we even try to prevent up stream farmers from collecting rain fall on their own properties..now that HAS to be an all time brilliant thing eh?

G.Z. and F.H. chill :)

F.H. has 2 valuable points, cultural evolution through intermarraige, and that culture is not static. G.Z.s comments about Islam do apply to some elements of the Muslim community, but not all. The more 'Islamic' a segment is, the more it will be resistant to cultural adaptation towards ours I feel.

I hope that in all this we do not at all lose sight of the reality of "Australian" culture. We don't list it,....we live it :)

BD, Thanks for your comment.

In fact my comments do apply to ALL in the Muslim community due to presence of a common Islam 'pull factor'. Whether a Muslim is moderate or fundamentalist is irrelevant.

To marry a Muslim, one must accepts the Islam faith, one way or another. One's children are expected to be Muslims. So intermarriage will never culturally evolve Islam. Rather, the reverse is true... eventual Muslim domination by population growth.

Some people will readily cite examples that contradict what I just said. But this is not because Islam culture is able to evolve. Sometimes such 'moderateness' has a very simple explanation - Muslim 'laziness' or more significantly a prevailing environment (like Australia) that permits such a 'laziness', due to a weaker effective Islamic pull factor.

I am sure some Muslims persuade us they are 'just like one of us'.... Muslims who drink alcohol, eat pork meat and FH even suggested celebrating Asian cultural events.

The critical consideration is that any moving object experiencing a constant and unchanging force (as Islam is) tends to be 'persuaded' to move according to the force.

In other words, given the wrong environment, a known moderate can exhibit an extremist side in a way that we never expected.

I am not aware of another culture that is 'fixed in time' like Islam culture is. Therefore as cultural evolution goes, the tendency of the world is towards Islamic fundamentalism.

Had human civilisation not already advanced significantly prior to the arrival of Islam, then in fact today's world culture is most likely a monolithic one - Islamic culture of the Taliban kind.

Count ourselves lucky.

I am sure almost all Muslims will disagree, unfortunately.

Boaz.

Yeah for sure..I dont know much about the Moslem community..Ive been otherwise occupied but it would seem theyve been in Australia for a long time and until the 911 thing we hardly knew they were there or even heard of them..so they couldnt have been doing to much wrong as an ordinary citizen.

I think too much is made of integration..yeah sure its necessary up to a point for understanding and respect issues..but beyond that I feel its alright for them to keep their identity from their native country.I think the Government cant say 'welcome, but as a right of entry to this country wipe your boots and leave your heart at the door.'

The settlers didnt leave their cultural practices behind when they came to these shores..instead they forced the black man to live his culture, took his land etc..otherwise we would all be eating kangaroos and living black mans law wouldnt we.

Seems to me there are a lot of double standards at work here..

GZ Tan
As someone who has known as friends many moderate Muslims [some extremely moderate, if it could be called that], both in Australia and in Bali, I suppose my exceptions to YOUR rule count for nothing.

Incidentally, in one of your previous posts you say that 'sin entered the world during Adam & Eve times'. Are you referring to the Old Testament story as allegorical or literal? If you believe it literally and as something which happened only a few thousand years ago, then how can you also talk about yourself as someone with a technical background, who can ask others to correctly state something scientifically and logically?

Of course, if you are a Christian who is stuck in the past, you can be conditioned to believe anything:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

Yareckon?
Well said. Similar things have happened probably everywhere modern European culture has become the dominant one, over the culture of the long time inhabitants. Well, what's done is done, but we now have the scientific knowledge and experience to start to correct things, if the political will is there. But the power brokers of the current Australian culture don't seem to be capable of seeing things that way.

Chief Seattle quotes: [Perhaps accurate, perhaps not, but none-the-less beautiful, spiritual and meaningful. And perhaps more relevant than a lot of the more recent dogma which is often argued about.]

http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/seattle.html

Rex,

Thanks mate for that link..you were right, it speaks to the heart alright and theres a lesson in there for us all.

The black man in this country has the same beliefs as the red man in America and in fact have great respect for each other..

Rex,

I meant it both allegorically AND literally. Any problem with that?

Allegorically because it is not scientific. However that does not mean the 'story' could not be logically true. But even if the 'story' were literally true, we may never prove it in our lifetime.

Literally because whilst there is a scripture that states it, there is no authoritative source that disproved it. And I believe sin is a human attribute (not just any animal). Therefore sin must literally 'enter' through existence of human, like the Bible says. Though it all seems rather allegorical.

I do not necessarily believe the 'story' is only a few thousand years old. I am critical both religiously and scientifically. But I will say I think human existence is definitely not in the order of millions of years.

So do you find fault in my scientific and logical thinkings? I'd be very interested to know.

I notice you did not claim to be a Muslim (just that you have many moderate Muslim friends). So why do you say you are exceptions to MY RULE ( a term that you used, not me). I'd be very interested to hear your argument about the 'exceptions'.

We may even discover who is the one stuck to an idea and conditioned to believe in something.

"Some people will readily cite examples that contradict what I just said. But this is not because Islam culture is able to evolve. Sometimes such 'moderateness' has a very simple explanation - Muslim 'laziness' or more significantly a prevailing environment (like Australia) that permits such a 'laziness', due to a weaker effective Islamic pull factor."

Maybe I could have said 'opinion' rather than 'rule'. But it seemed to me that you were denying the validity of any possible differences to your opinion, even before any were made.

No, I'm not Muslim. My four grandparents were [alphabetically] Catholic, Jewish, Methodist and Presbyterian. I sometimes wonder if, in our family, various options were put in a hat and the winner pulled out. I was raised as moderate Anglican and went, on a scholarship, to a strongly Methodist school, back in the days when English Methodists were inclined to be very narrow-minded. Even as a boy, I immediately picked the hypocrisy.

By the time I was 15, I had realised that I could not honestly repeat the Apostles' Creed, the tenet of Anglicanism. Some of it I accepted, some I didn't believe and some I found irrelevant. I have retained strong feelings of spirituality, but I'm not connected with any organised religion and have no wish to be.

And I've felt for a long time that if I had been unfortunate enough to have been born into a religion with [to me] a lot of irrelevant dos and don'ts, then I would have done what my Irish Catholic grandfather did, got out of it.

It just seemed to me that you were having a go at Fellow_Human, not because of something he had allegedly said or done, but merely because he's Muslim. Well, this thread is supposed to be about Australian culture and the Australians I generally mix with don't go on like that.

Rex,

I'm open to challenge. Don't think here it's possible to deny the validity of others opinion.

FH does not shy from cross swords with me. I attack the substance of a Muslim mind, not any Muslim. I'd like to debate Nayeefa Chowdhury on another thread for her comments, especially after she made known her 'combat kits', that silly girl.

Even though it's long past the days I thought it was possible to change everyone else's thinking.

Honestly I couldn't care less if someone consciously chooses to worship a rock. But Islam is different from other religions in some important ways.

Not long after I came to Australia, I went to an Australia Day picnic and was astonished to see a bunch of enthusiastic Muslim youths, wearing white logo T-shirts and a friendly smile on their faces, distributing leaflets that promotes Islam. (I don't recall seeing the females wore a headscarf). You can imagine how excited those evangelical youths must be, to think Australia a new-found land for a fertile harvest of Muslim converts (especially the white ones). Having lived life in an Islamic state, I was actually quite alarmed. What's happening to Australia? I thought. I certainly would not want Australia to even be remotely Islamic, as I regard Islam the scourge of humanity.

Sadly, Islam culture co-exists with Australian culture today. It's very relevant to this thread.

A digression here- A while back I stumbled and glanced the posting of someone that (I think) argues favourably about Muslims partly because she gets on well with a bunch of Malaysian overseas students (Muslims) and was impressed by them. (Is it surprising a religious state is racist? That Malaysia is, by any Australian measure). Those overseas students no doubt are privileged and have benefited from racism. That ignorant poster makes for a singing and dancing propagandist of something she is not even aware. I regard her post insulting to people who suffer under racism in that country. If she knows I'm talking about her then perhaps she will care to educate me about her cultural perspective.

Rex,

When you say the powerbrokers of the current political cultures not having the will to implement change to better manage enviromental damage I doubt it will ever happen, no matter who is in power..Labour or Liberal..but especially not Libs, no votes in it.

You only have to look at the political landscape to see how much credibility is given to any party concerned with 'green' issues..Bob Brown for example..its pathetic.

We all think for some strange reason that its a non issue or too far into the future ,scare campaign or whatever..all the while the ice caps are melting at an alarming rate, summers getting hotter and hotter ,floods,earthquakes, tsunamis,species dissappearing due to even the subtle, but not so subtle climate changes and on it goes.

Its Ok for me and everyone on here because our children will inherit the earths anger unleashed because we and governments sat on our hands.

Boazy,

Glad we can connect on an issue!

GZ Tan,

Thanks for the effort you are putting in although can I bring your attention to a number of issues that illustrate poor knowledge of the subject you are trying to discuss:

1. “To marry a Muslim, one must accepts the Islam faith”

False statement, muslim cam marry from the believers of the book (jewish, Christian) and they can keep their faith and its practice.

2. “One's children are expected to be Muslims”

Its a marriage pre-condition in some cases just like if you marry a Jewish woman, her kids will be Jewish.

3. “Muslims try to convince us they are like us ..drink Alcohol and eat pork”

For the benefit of the doubt I hope you did not mean that the Muslim integration means alcohol and pork. Please clarify your statement before I comment further.

4. “The Quran cannot be interpreted for modern times”

False statement, a number of scholar started this process over two decades ago such as Dr El Bahi and Sheikh Al Ghazali. Its true though that some were accused of being heretics, but Sheikh Ghazali for example analysed the abrogation theory in the Qu’ran and discredited the traditional understanding of it. His books and programs were watched by over 30 Million Muslims in the Arab world alone.

5. The basic rules of Islam cannot be changed (ie the one true God, fasting, paying the alms, praying and pilgrim). Everything else is sucject to progress and time. There are a number of examples throughout Islamic history where this occurred. The obvious one is when a case of drought occurred a Muslim ruler (Omar) suspended the criminal justice part of Sharia laws for few years fearing that some people might lose their hand stealing out of hunger.

Using your words, I don’t mind ‘crossing swords’ with you but please be more objective and distinguish between faith, religious and cultural practices.

As much as I think culture is a part of this topic, I don't think the Muslim culture is the sole object of this topic.

The topic is about Australia already having a culture and the fact that importing cultures into our society is unnecessary.

FH - a culture is a culture call it mono if you like... i said we had 2 recognisable cultures and that one of them is the dominant australian culture, the other the indigenous culture. i hardly think that is debateable.

Importing cultures from across the world, into our society and culture makes for many cultures... but they aren't all Australian.

T800,

There is a question before your last comment:

Can Australia afford to grow organically only? what will it look like if it did (growth, employment, aging population, resource utilisation, regional weight,etc..)?

There will be your schoold of though but there will be many more who can see the benefits of migration intake.

Accepting an immigration policy means that migrants countries will influence and be influenced by the host country.
"Australia has a culture - Multiculture is NOT required"

Not sure if you had a pre-conceived opinion above or you wanted to raed other opnions.

I guess the bigger question is: is migration to Australia properly managed?

Apologies if my last posting to GZ Tan derailed your thread but I tried to avoid a Muslim centric thread but Mr Tan insisted.

FH,

You'd better excuse your Alzheimer's memory-loss or else be regarded a hypocrite. Did you call my opinion false? (Are you actually still at school?)

As much you constantly white-wash and sugar-coat your religion, you claim those who disagree have a poor knowledge.

Firstly, my statement reads, in full context: "To marry a Muslim, one must accepts the Islam faith, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER".
I am aware there are partners of Muslims who are non-Muslims, but NOT out of the goodness of Islam.

When Quran mentions Muslims cam marry Jewish and Christians, it was because Muhammad:
(1) did not want to overly offend two dominant religions of the day;
(2) used that as a cunning ploy to subdue the Jews and the Christians;
(3) wanted to build Islam on top of two established religions so that he would sound more convincing.

'People of the book' actually meant 'People of the faith distorted'. Muhammad would then justify to force them 'back' to the 'correct faith'.
Allowing Jewish and Christians to keep their faith meaning to keep them as hostages of Islam.

As you already admitted, children of Muslims are expected to also be Muslims. So can the Jewish wife (hostage) of a Muslim (master) expect her children to be other than a Muslim? Surely not!

Today, Islam is the arch-enemy of... you guess it - Jews, Christians. So, call the hypocrisy as it really is about accepting 'people of the book'. ( There was never a sincere spirit of that in Muhammad, from day one.)

FH: "The Quran cannot be interpreted for modern times"

Firstly, the above is YOUR statement, not mine. My statements are different and without the specific context 'interpret for modern times'.

But is it surprising there are few who attempt to re-interpret and revise the 'true meaning' of Quran? Not at all. The point is, they really do not count. Quran is the same before and after such attempts and will be the same long after people forget about El Bahi and Al Ghazali.

FH,

FH said: "please be more objective and distinguish between faith, religious and cultural practices."

I am fully aware of the distinction and differences, that's why I wrote earlier: "Even if different Muslims practise it a little differently, there is a never ceasing 'pull factor' towards a central theme."

On Muslim integration...

I did not say Muslim integration means drinking alcohol and eating pork. Not at all.

But I would simply say that if the consensus opinion is that drinking alcohol and eating pork are regarded as cultural integration, then Muslims who are non-drinking and non-pork-eating are simply: Non-integrating. Any problem with this?

FH, I think at this stage we need to aim for Zero net Migration to Australia. Until we have developed a proper Population Policy and have a plan for our future which is environmentally, economically and socially susutainable.

Personally i think Muliticulti should be abandoned to ensure the latter. Migrants should come here to become Australians not to remain as they are. Merely transplanting another nationality here is not what I expect migration to be about. It certainly isn't what citizenship is about.

Well, T800, if you were an inspector assessing me to see if I am acceptable to Australia, I have no idea if I would pass. Being English born, I would have no problems with speaking English. Although I do pronounce a number of English words differently to many Australian TV announcers and newsreaders.

I wouldn't get naturalised until it was no longer compulsory to swear allegiance to Queen Elizabeth of England, someone who I regard as a foreign head of state. When I did get naturalised, I also retained my British citizenship. I did this so that, in the unlikely event that I ever went back to Britain for a holiday [the last time was 1983], I could travel on a British passport and so make things much easier for myself.

I have a German born friend who has retained her German nationality, because otherwise she would be denied some pension or superannuation type entitlements by the German govt. She speaks excellent English and is married to an English born medical specialist. But she's not an Australian citizen, although her German income probably means that she pays more tax in Australia than she otherwise would.

My lady friend is Japanese. She came here about 14 years ago with her then husband and their children as, I believe, business migrants. She has been divorced for several years. When I met her about three and a half years ago she did not speak fluent English. She had been working as a Japanese cook in restaurants and had not been mixing much with English speaking people. But her and her family had paid plenty of tax in Australia and continue to do so.

She had taken up ballroom dancing as a way of socialising without the need for fluent English and we met at a dance. We socialise a great deal with mainly English speaking people and her English has certainly improved. I don't know why, but I get the impression that the family will retain their Japanese citizenship. It doesn't bother me at all. But would you find it a concern?

Back to the topic for a change...

Rex,

Sorry but I disagree with the basis of your argument which unfortunately reflects the most common thinking on such issues, but nonetheless a 'red-herring'.

I believe the only issue that really matters is - Will a migrant abide by principles of western liberal democracy?

Once question is settled, it then is a matter of following policies of the day as to what type, skills or even race of migrants to accept, and in what proportion.

Rex, you are funny. GZ is right... you're off the mark, yet again.

We are talking about Australian culture and that would only involve citizens Rex. BTW I don't think you have to pledge allegience to the Queen any more, I could be wrong.

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/ceremonies/citizenship/pledge.htm

but it doesn't look like it.

I was born here. Our heritage is not so dis-similar yet i don't nor did my parents or grand-parents harbour the same "attitude" problems you seem to regards culture and the monarchy.

Do I believe citizens should hold dual citizenship? No. As the saying goes... you can't serve 2 masters. The US doesn't allow it. Nor does Italy i believe... you must divest your Australian citizenship if you wish to live in italy. Maybe you could get back to me at how many countries do?

I'm not arguing about the "values" test etc... just that Australia has no need for multiculti policy... something you've failed as yet to show any benefits of.

The only point in your "strawman" related to the topic is this... "When I met her about three and a half years ago she did not speak fluent English. She had been working as a Japanese cook in restaurants and had not been mixing much with English speaking people. But her and her family had paid plenty of tax in Australia and continue to do so."

Perhaps if she had mixed more and tried to integrate more her English would have been better. Paying tax doesn't make one Australian.

I like the Japanese culture and Japanese. I didn't need Multiculti to learn about it.

Going back over posts T800..it would seem Ranier has a point..you really dont define what Australian culture is..answer that question first and if you cant, if ALL you can give us is a language and traditions leftover from England and stuff since borrowed from America, then I say your arguement is deeply flawed.

Give me in 50 words or less without drawing from England or America, what we would ALL agree what Aust. culture is and then go on to refine your arguement from there if you STILL can.

If we dont encourage some form of migration program that is a folly.
We are a big country and very under populated..a decent sized invasion from Indonesia would see us crash and burn..

America our allies?..Dont hold your breath.. theyve turned their backs before.The real world fellas.

ROTFLMAO taurus... how about you define it in 50 words or less eh? I have given quite a wide yet not complete description of our culture and its development so far. I even supplied the definition of culture... now if you think you can do better... then go for it.

50 words or less ROTFLMAO.

T800,

"Migrants should come here to become Australians not to remain as they are"
Becoming Australian to me as a migrant means love the country and its people, respect its values, obey the laws, pay the taxes, contribute to the society and raise a healthy happy family.

Most migrants I know keep up with the above values (except for the Alocohol and pork as GZ TAN comment).

Did I miss anything?

GZ TAN,

Out of respect to T800 thread I will not comment on this thread.
Your lack of knowledge of Islam can be resolved by visiting:

www.islamic-awareness.org

If you still have an itch for a challenge initiate your own discussion and I will be there.

Peace,

A common way of trying to get off the hook when you're challenged to define your position is to answer a question with a question. You started this discussion, T800. It's your responsibilty to clarify exactly what, in your opinion, we are supposed to be discussing.

So far you've given us a dictionary definition of the word culture and a grab-bag of odds and ends.

If you simply said that we don't want people coming to Australia and causing trouble and disruption, then you may get general agreement. But one person's "trouble and disruption" is another person's right to legally protest against unfairness, isn't it?

You may not have noticed, but one way in which Australian attitudes are changing is in regard to the monarchy. I accept that there was a time when Australians were overwhelmingly monarchists. That is no longer true. It could be said that this aspect of Australian culture is changing. Those Australians, like myself, who are not monarchists don't have an "attitude problem", they merely hold a different political opinion on this subject. If I choose to vote for a different candidate to your choice in an election, do I then have an attitude problem?

If you can't tell us what Australian culture actually consists of, perhaps you can tell us the type of people you would not allow to settle here.

FH,

I can met you anywhere, any topic if I want. But it only makes sense if you will discard falsehood, deceit and hypocrisy, so typical of a Muslim.

I can even continue as this thread was intented.

So some questions below to challenge your thinking.

You think becoming Australian means:-

(1). Love the country

Q: Do you love Australia as is, a western liberal democracy?

(2). Love its people

Q: A lots of gays and lesbians here. Do you love them as well? Do you love prostitutes and whores as human beings?

(3). Respect its values

Q: You believe Islamic values are over and above values of a western liberal democracy, don't you?

(4). Obey the laws

Q: You also believe in sharia laws that are incompatible with values under Australia's laws, isn't that true?

(5). pay the taxes

Q: Is it not true some unemployed Muslims have no guilt about burdening the tax and welfare system? eg. having many children (an encouragement arising from the Islam culture).

(6). contribute to the society

Q: It is very clear Muslim population in Islamic states do not contribute to ideals of freedom and democracy. I infer that Muslims here cannot possibly make a positive NETT contribution towards freedom and democracy, correct?

(7). raise a healthy happy family

Q: If hypothetically you have to choose between raising a happy non-Muslim family OR raising a less-than-happy Muslim family, which is more important to a Muslim?

Rex, Rex, Rex... stop building strawmwen.... I provided a definition and provided cultural examples. Even then it took me more than 50 words... (culture covers quite a lot Rex) stop being disingenuous and have a go yourself then... pick a National culture you are familiar with.

Don't lie about me Rex... I don't appreciate it.

GZ Tan,

Please find your questionnaire filled:

1. Yes. Although Australia is a “Southern Liberal democracy”, the word “West” lost it meaning when we found out that the earth is round..LOL

2. I don’t judge other people based on question 1. Respecting someone ‘right to exist does not mean you approve (or you need to) the content of how they live it.

3. I don’t see discrepancies between my values as a Muslim and / or an Australian, western society values (Unless you are referring again to pork and alocohol). Islam preaches honesty, openness, hard work, fair treatment and trade and equality.

5. Social benefits fraud in Australia is practised by a few people and not exclusive to Arabs or Muslims. I witnessed greeks, Italians, anglos, single mums, etc.. The system need to close the fraud gaps and severely penalise offenders.

6. Muslims in Australia do vote and contribute to politics and policy making in Australia. If encouraged similar to the US, they can contribute more if it wasn’t for people like you scaring them off. Muslims like democracy and in Iraq they risked their lives to go and vote for the first time which is a risk I don’t know of any liberal westerner can take.

7. I am raising my kids to be Australians and Muslims. What they chose to practice when they are adults is their choice there are no guarantees. Whats important for a parent is to have good happy kids.

How is my score? :)

Free yourself from the vicious circle of fear and hate. One will always dig and find a bad apple(s) everywhere if you keep looking for them.

Peace,

FH,

Words are just that - words. So say anything you'd like.

I'am critical logically and do consider your answers very evasive.
But at the end of the day I am not the one to judge you.

To my analysis Islam is not able to withstand the test of truth. Also, Muslim moderates which you are one, will not make the slightest difference to where the world is headed, to further clashes with Islam... and misery.

In the end we will realise our destiny as dictated by divinity... and the truth will be winner.

Enjoy our earthly life while we can...

T800, several posters have asked you to say exactly what you mean and you have repeatedly dodged the issue. So it's not just me who's being difficult. If you reckon that you've already been clear enough, then all you need to do is copy what you've already said.

I like this thread, otherwise I would not have stuck with it. I think that you and others have some important and relevant things to say about how Australia was, is now and where we're possibly heading.

It's my feeling that I [and at least some others] would find that we have a number of gut feelings in common with you. But gut feelings are too vague a description when we're talking about common values.

One of the first "stereotypes" I mentioned on this thread was meeting a typical friendly Aussie, who was happy to share his beer [and a bit of light-hearted leg-pulling] with a New Australian and a new chum. I'm very happy and very proud to be part of a country with such wonderful stereotypes. And I bet you are too.

This is one of the first things I said too:

"What I don't appreciate [and I think this is the real issue] is being told what to do, or not do, from an illogical, unsubstantiated, often religious point of view. But for many who, even in egalitarian Australia, consider themselves to be our betters, it's considered OK to push some of the more narrow-minded Christian stuff down our throats. Then the same people scream blue murder if some of the Muslim migrants try to emulate them."

I just thought it was worth repeating.

GZ Tan,

I am not sure what is 'evasive'in the very straight answers above.
Islam for Muslims is the truth just like the Bible is for you.

We don't judge each other for one day we will be all judged.

Collision or co-operation is a choice. Sounds like you are making a self fulfilling prophecy out of the book of revelations.

Take care my friend and maybe one day I will buy you a coffee after Ramadan is over :)

Peace,

Dear Rex
Australian culture, as I've often said, is something we 'live' rather than itemize. It is quite distinguishable from other cultures, but like language, we don't consciously think of the grammer each time we make a sentence.
Rather than give a long list of specifics, can I recommend you do a search on this ? I guarantee it will reveal much that helps.

Such a simple act as 'Shaking hands' (more of a Western).... our 'best and FAIRest' awards, (quite 'Australian')... etc.. what we do at births, marraiges and deaths. Clothing/Dress, how we address older people, younger people, Male Relatives, Female relatives, opposite sex..its all culture.

Dig dig dig :)

Don't tell me you never started at the top of the topic Rex. Well don't be lazy, I'm not going to waste more than this post on you. OLOs restrictions make it difficult for me to cover everything i have to as it is.

I suggest you look at the definition and write a 50 word or less definition of our culture. i'd be quite pleased if you can, because I'll use it in the future so far on this topic it's taken me at least 1500 words and i haven't covered every aspect of it.

David is right in respect that there is a lot of info on the Net if you really cared to look. I gather you fall into the category of thinking there is no Ausdtralian culture. Sorry, I disagree.

It is interesting that when we feel threatened we are spurred to define something that is simply the way that we live as a nation, diverse as it may be.

One of the most important things about being "Australian" is that we are free to post or air our comments without (most of the time) being insulted or ridiculed.

All cultures and beliefs have their positives and negatives and we should recognise that. Some cultures however, will never be compatible with others and I think that the powers-that-be should recognise that. I remember a quote from an American academic that Alan Jones said (yes I am guilty sometimes of listening to journalists) that the best way to destroy a nation was to implement multiculturalism because of the old saying "united we stand, divided we fall".

It is also interesting how current events have changed the nature of the debate. Years ago it was differences within Christianity that created controversy, the Catholic/Protestant debate. What we also have now is the public/private debate.

Although Australia does have its own culture and it is as diverse as any other, what we are seeing in Australia now is the increase in division between sections of the community. Perhaps the threat of a loss of culture will bring to the people an awareness of the fact that we all love this country and we are all here for the long haul.

The reason that Australians cannot adequately define what makes their culture unique to them is simply..this was never their country to begin with..ask the Aboriginal pple and they will tell you in a heartbeat what makes Australia their country, no confusion for them..nothing obscure and they could do it in under 50 words or less.

Id imagine it would be very much to do with dreamtime and stories and traditions over eons, thousands upon thousands of years.They have linkage and roots that run very deep steeped in culture and tradition.

White man stole this country form the traditional owners..he has no roots, no culture because this is not his country.Sorry but thats the truth.

further to that ..no roots, no culture equals no soul, no home, no belonging..perhaps the sins of his fathers means that his sons and daughters will atone spiritually for the rape and pillage of a land that belonged to another pple and the destruction of their culture and their roots.

tauris29,
I disagree with you. No person can discribe his/her culture in 50 words or less and I consider it an insult to even ask that of anyone, of any culture. There is so many facets of a culture that makes this task impossible. One could not even list the number of facets that go into the making of a culture in 50 words.

I am sure that there are many of aboriginal blood that could tell you why they believe they are the historical owners and how it was taken from them. This is not unusual. In world history there have been countless invasions, takeovers and deals done in relation to land. This has happened many time to the one country sometimes and even complete nations of people have vanished.

All human cultures deserve much more than 50 words. More like 500 pages.

50 words or less is not something that I seriuosly proposed Banjo..

But the fact still remains and in actual fact if one thinks about it..we can scale it down to 50 words or less..

Culture for Indigenoius people comes down to ..'traditions and sacred sites being the spiritual heart for Indig. pple...lands hunted thru the ages by countless generations who previuosly took care of it.The cycle of life and death , lessons learned by ancestors thru the ages then passed down to successive generations.'
I believe that is under 50 words..

So how does that compare to BBQs..beer..sheilas..and cricket..sounds a lot like old mother England to me.

Taurus... u are missing an important point.

yes.. it's true that 'white man' came here and disposessed the indigenous people. Sad.. regrettable but true.

This therefore puts a mark in time as to when the country in it's white incarnation was founded. So, its young.

This does not mean it doesn't have a culture. The people who came here had one each. Mostly they were English. Then Irish, then Welsh and Scottish. Each one had a culture, and would have had to adapt it to 2 things

a) The new circumstances
b) The other cultural forces among them (Irish etc)

So, what we ended up with is a modified cultural mix, which in time, distilled itself to 'Australian' Culture.

Then, we had the Wars and post WW2 we had a large intake of Migrants from non traditional countries.

Now, I expect those cultures to be absorbed, to adapt themselves and along with the English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh founders, to build a hybrid, assimilated, homogenous culture in the same manner.

We will of course be enriched by various new foods, and possibly some dress sense, but it must happen by 'osmosis' and natural gravitational movement, not by a policy of 'Multi culturalism'.

Intermarraige should be encouraged and migrants should be asked to COMMITT to the idea of their children marrying a person of THEIR choice, rather than a choice of the parents. This will speed up assimilation.

Yes David, some people seem to lack commonsense on this subject.

This is the end of another piece I wrote a while back.

It has been said that even though Australian "cultural" achievements are recognised world wide, in areas that are considered "high - culture"; film, music, painting, theatre, dance, literature and crafts - that it is difficult to discern much about Australian culture by just examining them. Traditional "high - culture" gains little attention from much of the population, in contrast to popular culture is no surprise in Australia. "High - culture" still thrives nevertheless, with excellent galleries (even in surprisingly small towns); a rich tradition in ballet, enlivened by the legacy of Dame Margot Fonteyn and Sir Robert Helpmann; a strong national opera company based in Sydney; and good symphony orchestras in all capital cities, particularly the Melbourne and Sydney symphony orchestras.

As the Australian landscape is defined not by it's small mountains, but by the vast "sweeping" barren plains, Australian culture is probably best defined by looking at the less prominent, by considering it's more subtle and pervasive aspects. Perhaps this is why so many people consider Australia culture-less... a case of not being able to see the forest for the gum-trees.

As I have said before...

We want others to join us as Australians and change with us… not force change upon us, or be separate from us.

Various links with thoughts on our CULTURE...

http://home.alphalink.com.au/~eureka/cult.htm
http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au/
http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/index.htm
http://www.csu.edu.au/australia/culture.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Australia
http://www4.tpg.com.au/users/bev2000/strine.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/civics/globalcitizens/ozstrine.htm
http://www.whitehat.com.au/Australia/Inventions/InventionsA.html
http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/inventions.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/04/1067708214342.html?from=storyrhs
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:Gtabcp56zocJ:www.radioaustralia.net.au/australia/pdf/popular_culture.pdf+australian+sporting+culture&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8
http://www.artcyclopedia.com/nationalities/Australian.html

In immigration, you need a more tangible basis of assessment than merely describing 'culture'. This is because it all comes down to a yes/no answer when assessing a potential migrant.

If taurus29's 'culture' is the basis of assessment, then a lot of indigenous aborigines from Africa, Papua New Guinea and Bornea would come to Australia because they fit in so well.

To formulate a tangible assessment policy. I reiterate my thinking the best starting points are:

1. How likely will a migrant abide by principles of western liberal democracy
2. What type (eg. age group, relationship), skills, race of migrants to accept.
3. How many and in what proportion.

There must be no political correctness. Be 'racist' if you have to.

tauris29,
I don't wish to be critical but what you have written is what I would call a motherhood statement and would suit as introduction to a paper on the culture of any group. Certainly the beginning of a foreword for a book on any aboriginal culture in the world.

It does not give me any idea of the aboriginal culture in Australia, either contempory or of past times. What is required is wording about their tribal structure, inter tribal relations, their family life, their traditions, whether different tribes had different laws, coming of age social events, what foods and how prepared, how various tasks were allocated and by whom, marriage. etc. etc. This may all have to be repeated if the northern people had a different culture than the southern people, or the coastal differed from the western or inland people.

This is why i say it cannot be done in 50 words. One can make comments about various aspects of a culture, but not a culture.

Banjo..Abl pple..dont have to list activity by activity to give an overveiw of their culture..that is laborious and unnecessary and if their experience can be related in essence to all Indigenous cultures the same would also be true of the european cultures ie..their 'mother statement' would be the same.

So I still say what is your point and I stll say I did it quite succinctly in under 50 words.

And so did I rachel...although Id like to know exactly what your on about..

Why do i bother?
For at least the 3rd time in this topic...

For the purpose of this piece, I consider the dictionary definition (below) completely appropriate.

cul·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klchr)
n.
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

Australian culture then would be those aspects and characteristics that have developed on the Australian continent and those in a form readily distinguishable from other National cultures. It would also therefore be the dominant culture of Australia and also be recognised in various "Australian" stereotypes.

Now feel free to make your list of 50 words or less that cover all the aspects of culture mentioned in the definition. ROTFLMAO.

tauris29,
Have another look at your posts of a few days ago. You did propose a 50 or less word definition of our culture. You used the word "define".

Now you give us a definition,in 50 words, of Australian aboriginal culture using only the matters you put in your "motherhod" statement I mentioned before. Oh, and tell us if it relates to modern day people or those of a past era. If you can do that adequately, your a better man than me, Gun-ga-din.

T800.. that makes no sense and reads as a nonsense..

Now please try again..

At least my definition..in 50 words or less made sense..'mother statement' or not.

Get a better dictionary.

ROTFLMAO..ditto.

Well taurus, if you fail to accept dictionary definitions as being the real meaning of words what is the point of anyone trying to argue factually with you?

You cannot live in denial and reality at the same time.

I wait your attempt or anyone elses to actually give exmples of the Australian culture as per the definition. I however won't be limiting them to the ridiculous limit of 50 words or less. Something that the definition certainly shows is not a realistic possibility.

The 50 word or less thing was a joke T800..but you swallowed it whole and made a huge meal out of it..:)

I mean do you have to make it so easy...?

T800.
Rather than admit he is beaten, tauris now tries to laugh it off.

Banjo and T800..'admits he is beaten'..but im not..there is no Aussuie culture to speak of..if there were we wouldnt even be having this debate would we?..as it would be a given and we would all understand that it doesnt need explanation..comphrendo guys?

The abl culture, an overveiw at least, can be defined in 50 words or less actually, but noone can do that for the Aus. culture.

We keep getting excuses about long winded 500 word blah blah blah .
It could be said then that Aus. culture so far according to T800s definition is keep out all the immigrants and bring back Pauline Hanson.

And lets print some more money while were at it.

Well taurus some of us Australians actually think we do have a culture and that it is distinguishable from other cultures even those we share much in common with. We don't feel the need to import other National cultures into our society.

You and those of your ilk apparently don't think we have an Australian culture.

Yeah T800...'culture'..beer, sheilas and booze..barby, shrimp,Paul Hogan,Pauline Hanson,Sydney race riots,Australia Day..the Bicentenarry..

No wait!...you were RIGHT...Australia does have a culture..

I could never quite get it but guys you showed me the light..superior intellect again..

Print a few bills anyone:)))

Migrants coming to Australia to become Australian if they are fair dinkum will INTEGRATE into the Australian culture. Many i know have.

Migrants wishing to remain the nationality they were... need not become Australians. Need not migrate.

As for refugees as Celivia mentioned... you don't need Multiculti to accept refugees... they're REFUGEES.

As for those who came here to remain another nationality living in Australia, if they feel uncomfortable that they are expected to fit in, to integrate, then they can move back HOME or go somewhere else.

Multiculturalism isn't irreversible it's only an immigration policy.

Multiculturalists complain that Australians expect Australia to be Australian... oh dear what's wrong with that? other nations have their own national culture... hence many cultures... yet it's ok for them to preserve their cultures but it's not ok for us.

T800...there is a point I agree on..I dont like the policy some schools and kindergatens have of not having the traditional Santa Claus visit the kindy etc..that is plain wrong..

Our kids have to forgo theyre traditional christmas celebrations because it might offend a couple of kids in the room who have different traditions in THEIR contry of origin..
This is lunacy..taking political correctness way too far.

hello guys..whats up

Local shopping centre the other day refuses to have any xmas decorations reflecting a Christian sentiment... go figure... what's that about... apparently centre management don't want to upset any minotities.

Adopt our values or stay away, says Blair
By Philip Johnston,
09/12/2006
Pt;1
Tony Blair formally declared Britain's multicultural experiment overyesterday as he told immigrants they had ''a duty" to integrate with themainstream of society. In a speech that overturned more than three decades of Labour support forthe idea, he set out a series of requirements that were now expected fromethnic minority groups if they wished to call themselves British. These included "equality of respect" - especially better treatment ofwomen by Muslim men - allegiance to the rule of law and a command ofEnglish. If outsiders wishing to settle in Britain were not prepared to conform tothe virtues of tolerance then they should stay away. He added: "Conform toit; or don't come here. We don't want the hate-mongers, whatever theirrace, religion or creed. "If you come here lawfully, we welcome you. If you are permitted to stayhere permanently, you become an equal member of our community and becomeone of us. The right to be different. The duty to integrate. That is whatbeing British means."

Adopt our values or stay away, says Blair
By Philip Johnston,
09/12/2006
Pt;2

Mr Blair's volte face - just eight years ago he championedmulticulturalism - was the culmination of a long Labour retreat from thecause. In recent weeks, Jack Straw, Ruth Kelly, John Reid and Gordon Brownhave all played their part in a concerted revision of the Cabinet's standwhich began in earnest after the July 7 suicide bombings in London lastyear. Mr Blair, speaking in Downing Street, said the diversity of cultures inBritain should still be celebrated but the tone of his speech was againstthe ideology that became known as multiculturalism. "The right to be in a multicultural society was always implicitly balancedby a duty to integrate, to be part of Britain, to be British and Asian,British and black, British and white," he said The bombings had thrown the whole concept of a multicultural Britain "intosharp relief" and highlighted the divisions in society. While it was rightthat people should enjoy their own cultures, they should do so under asingle set of overarching values. "When it comes to our essential values, the belief in democracy, the ruleof law, tolerance, equal treatment for all, respect for this country andits shared heritage — then that is where we come together, it is whatgives us what we hold in common; it is what givesright to call ourselvesBritish," said Mr Blair. "At that point no distinctive culture or religion supercedes our duty tobe part of an integrated United Kingdom."