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The Forum > General Discussion > 'No' to the Death Penalty - Then What ?

'No' to the Death Penalty - Then What ?

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As the dust settles after the unfortunate spectacle of Messrs CHAN & SUKUMARAN'S execution, we're left with that ineradicable question of what other means or options do we have of dispensing justice ?

In FOXY'S previous Topic, much was made of 'deterrence', or the lack thereof ? Some supported the death penalty, saying the two perpetrators should've been done away with thus rendering society a bit safer from their ugly trade ?

We no longer have Capital Punishment embodied within legislation here in Australia. So had CHAN & SUKUMARAN been returned here for punishment (one remedy I'd heard proposed to the Indonesians?), what period of imprisonment should they've received ? Australia, has a very unfortunate record for being unduly lenient and indulgent by some standards, here in our region ?

Is that a fair summation of us do you think ? After all aren't we supposed to be the most sociologically advanced nation in our region ? I can't really say, though what about Singapore, still they have the death penalty ? I can speak quite definitively when I aver, most police believe that our judicial system is inordinately lenient ?

Are there any realistic options ,for a clever country like Australia ?
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 7 May 2015 1:36:23 PM
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Keeping people in prison is way too expensive for the ordinary tax payer - they sin but we, who are innocent, pay the price!

Far better is exile - send such criminals to some 3rd-world country (for an agreed fee to that country, in place of unconditional foreign-aid as is now and when possible out of the criminal's own assets), never to be allowed to return to Australia.

After all, this "clever" country does the same to refugees who did nothing wrong!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 7 May 2015 10:09:00 PM
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'evening to you YUYUTSU...

Believe it or not years ago I heard a state politician (NSW) suggest a form of exile as a way to reduce increased prisoner overcrowding ? Sending some of these (selected) ne'er do wells out to a very arid area of OZ with sufficient resources to sustain them with the express purpose of turning this parched dry land into something approaching useful ?

I would've thought without a mass of equipment, and knowhow it would be next to impossible, to do anything approaching positive, with such dry wasteland ? Thanks anyway YUYUTSU.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 7 May 2015 10:23:13 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

I've come across an interesting article that
may be of interest. It's a discussion on -
"Time for prison reform across Australian
States." :

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3511023.htm

It's a good place to start.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 7 May 2015 11:07:53 PM
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Hi o sung wu,

Prevention is better than cure. The biggest cause of crime in our society is social inequality. Many criminals are born, born into disadvantage, they never have a chance from the start. Fortunately very few Australians ever face court on a criminal charge, and even fewer on a serious charge such as murder or drug smuggling. If your focus is on the upper end of crime then regardless of what is done the overall crime rate is not going to diminish to any great degree, while you have the social problems of poverty, lack of education, lack of employment, lack of opportunity etc.
A criminal is a criminal long before he commits a crime, that leads him or her to jail. The vast majority of us do not commit crime because we fear the retribution of society, no that is not the case, we feel its not the right thing for us to do and we have no need to do it.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 8 May 2015 7:16:13 AM
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It is an easy way out to blame the government and society for lack of success in life, for drug habits and for criminal behaviour.

We all make choices every day. It is up to us. There is no need to live in squalor, soap is cheap, it is a welfare society and saying no to drugs should be a 'no-brainer'.

However it is true that some children cannot rely on their parents for care and example. Many children are fatherless. A sad story related to me by a friend years ago related to children who were punished by their feral parents for doing well in school. In that 'Shire' things have only got worse through the increasing availability of drugs.

Take children away from the harm they experience daily? Well, no to that too from hand-wringers who put their personal 'rights' ahead of the child.

Back to the OP, while I do not support the death penalty I cannot say that life without parole (LWOP) is any better. LWOP is worse. I accept that my reasons for supporting life that MEANS life for some crimes is that I do not want the mongrel (eg., that sob Martin Bryant, Port Arthur) to have an easy way out. That and the always stupid, impossible hope that the Milats would eventually relent to give police details, for instance burial sites, to put families at peace.

However, the anti-capital punishment push who say LWOP is the preferable option are often lying through their teeth, because they very, very likely wouldn't support LWOP either.

As well, they would support de-criminalisation of all drugs, notwithstanding the evidence that millions of victims will be created overnight. There are vulnerable people aplenty, examples being children and people going through distressing life experiences, including mental conditions such as depression.

It has to be made very plain to drug traffickers for example, that knowingly putting people at risk of serious harm or death (and as criminals of course they deny knowledge that drugs could cause harm) is intolerable. Yet in Australia they get off lightly, why?
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 8 May 2015 10:19:57 AM
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Hi there FOXY...

Thank you for that link. Having read it, I'd have to say I'd generally agree with what most therein had said. There are opportunities available in gaol to educate, or further educate yourself. The trouble is, there is an unofficial 'government' in place, comprising of 'heavy' criminal gangs. First, you MUST find your place, and align yourself with one or the other ? The only other option, is to 'seek protection' and become a 'non-associate' ? Therein lies a very complex, convoluted story of nothing but pure survival, before attempting any form of personal restoration.

Hi PAUL1405...

You're right; disadvantage, lack of parental control, lack of a role model, unsuccessful education, no prospects of employment, destined to 'survive' on a lifetime of welfare...? All this gloomy pessimism, serve only to encourage young people to seek other less legitimate methods of ameliorating their lot in life. From my own observations Paul, much of the original blame must be laid squarely at the feet of the parents, specifically the father. Gaol in it's present form, is a failure in my view.

G'day there ONTHEBEACH...

As ever you've covered a great deal of ground. Far too much for me to do justice to you. You speak with a great deal of sense on so many levels - LWOP is a good substitution for the death penalty, particularly with the likes of BRYANT and MILAT (there are far, far, worse than those two in boob, believe me?). Or is it ? Take away any prospect of release, even if it's 35 or 45 years in the future ? What sort of inducement is there to a criminal to behave, whilst in custody ? An individual with an indeterminable sentence, and they still exist, 'Governor's Pleasure' what motivation is there for him to conform at all ? No prospects of ever being released ? A potentially explosive situation for everybody, crim and Officer alike ? More later ONTHEBEACH.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 8 May 2015 12:06:35 PM
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o sung wu,

Just as an aside to the discussion, it is amazing just how bent the thinking of some commentators is when they can argue that the Indonesian authorities shouldn't have been so concerned about that massive haul of 'smack' (Bali 9) because 'it was being taken OUT of the country'(?!).

Times have changed, it is not so long ago that anyone who put up such obviously stupid excuses would have been set straight in very short order.

The other observation I would make is that where crimes are attracting lesser punishments and non-custodial sentences will the general disgust and aversion to those crimes be lessened accordingly? That would act to increase the incidence of the crime one would think.

To take a different example, would the general acceptance of (say) abortion and right up to the moment of birth as one female ethicist in Australia would have it, reduce over time the general community's abhorrence of infanticide? Not arguing for or against abortion on demand, just using it as a convenient example. Infanticide often concerns newborns or neonates.

To reiterate, where crimes are attracting lesser punishments will the general disgust and aversion to those crimes be lessened accordingly, resulting in an increased number of the crimes? -Australia would seem to be fertile ground for drug traffickers because they only get a slap on the wrist or at worst, are out in several years. Bugger all, when one considers the trail of harm and death they leave behind them, and added to that their high recidivism - to result in hundreds more ruined lives and deaths.

Who would be a cop?
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 8 May 2015 1:02:29 PM
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Yes it must be all my fault. I made these rotten bludgers try to run drugs, or rip of little old ladies.

I should have been paying more tax, so the poor dears could get $100,000 a year dole or other bludger money. Can't expect them to live on a few hundred a week, or to dig holes for a living like any other dumb punk.

Our system too harsh for gods sake, when the bludgers have 25 break & enters treated as a first offence, & get a slap on the wrist. You've got to be kidding, far too lenient more like it.

What we need is a chain gang system. Get the rip off merchants clearing rubber vine & prickly acacia up north for the first offence for a few months, living under the stars, then there probably wouldn't be any second offence.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 8 May 2015 1:27:48 PM
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You know ONTHEBEACH and HASBEEN...

You're both on the same page ! You both ask precisely the same question, though expressed in slightly different language, nevertheless, the exact same question ? Why are we seemingly so pathetically soft on serious crime ? Why is it, and who's behind it ?Perhaps I'm wrong, and if anything, punishment is becoming much more draconian ? Or is it the case that I'm from the old school and anything short of 'keel hauling' for failing to wear a life preserver, is patently inadequate ?

If those more liberally indulgent and avant-garde reformist's have such an aversion to gaol, what are the alternatives ? Or do you believe that there'll come a time when the concept of penal servitude becomes altogether redundant ? And another alternative form of penance or atonement ultimately replaces incarceration as we know it ?

I'll readily admit that gaol is clearly not working in it's present form. It's nothing but a cesspit of intrigue and with overtones of gangland control. And all that the warders can do, is keep them behind the walls. Everything else is run by the prisoners themselves ? So what do we do ? What are the other options, if any ? I'll admit I've no answers myself, I've exhausted all my options ? Clearly I'd not wish to see the re-introduction of the death penalty, there's got to be a better solution, in the year of 2015 ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 8 May 2015 3:24:40 PM
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Of course the elephant in the room is that if penalties fit the crime the idiotic notion that their are no absolutes (adopted by leftist dogma) is clearly seen for the joke it is. Personally I think in many cases the victim of crime should get a say about the penalty. Instead we have sleazy lawyers and often pathetically weak judges determing the outcome. The further we have gone from absolutes the weaker our law system has come. I am all for mercy however for the numerous crimminals I have met, the vast majority are not sorry for their crimes or who they have hurt but will sob for whoever, in order to get mercy. Mercy should only ever be granted upon genuine repentance.
Posted by runner, Friday, 8 May 2015 3:45:09 PM
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Had there been a "social contract", had that legendary bird actually existed, then it could include the agreement of the signatory to be punished, and how, for breaking laws. If the agreement includes the death penalty, then so be it and if it includes jail, then so be it too.

But as there is no such contract, nobody has any authority to punish another. What remains is to do whatever is necessary to protect the members of society against future crimes: this can only be on a case-by-case basis, based on strategic and tactical analysis of the needs of people for security. Law, courts and prescribed punishments are totally inappropriate in this situation - just do what works to keep people safe. If there's more than one option, choose the one which inflicts the least suffering on others.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 8 May 2015 3:48:26 PM
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Personally I'm all for gaols to be tent cities out in the desert, guarded by the army and run along army lines.
The guard group to be a Regular Battalion and if there are any escapes and the escapee(s) make it back to civilization then the battalion does another three months duty there as punishment.

There is absolutely no necessity for prisons to be near towns or in cities.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 8 May 2015 5:18:09 PM
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Asian gaols, specifically Indonesian, are being lauded by the leftist commentariat as superlative. They can convert drug trafficking thugs into clergy and artists and are diverse, multiculturalist havens too. Blissful and blessed, apparently. The religion that the leftists support when they are not setting fire to Christians.

The answer is obvious then, contract out to the Indonesians and leave them there, to live out their lives in multicultural fulfillment. They wouldn't want to leave and could do good things (reportedly).
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 8 May 2015 8:35:51 PM
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Hi there RUNNER...

'There are no 'absolutes' any longer' ? Consequently our modern society seems adrift, no longer able to establish a clear protocol for 'correcting' recidivist behaviour, with nothing more then the same weak slap on the wrist ?

The victim no longer has any say as to the punishment of the wrong doer ? Aside from the 'victim's impact statement', that is of course the presiding judiciary member, who's precariously perched atop of his bench, will permit the statement to impact upon the penalty phase ? Some members of the bench don't even listen to the VIS, let alone allow it to have the relevant impact it deserves, upon the penalty decision ?

IS MISE...

You've got a novel suggestion there, as a realistic alternative to spending millions upon new and bigger prisons ? Exile them to an arid desert environment, in an Army styled Military camp ? Easy to erect a 20ft chain wire fence, topped off with strands 'n strands of razor ribbon, with a guard tower located on each corner. Manned 24 hours a day, by a minimum of two officers, with a 'hard' mounted M60, in each Tower that's able to traverse a full 180 degrees. Something not unlike that of 1 MCE (minus the Towers), at Holsworthy ?

And run along Army lines, and staffed by an equal number of Prison Officers from all Australian States. A commonwealth initiative, funded by all the States. Visiting is by special arrangements ? Hey, it's only a suggestion, nothing more ? And not too bad either if one was to consider the specifics much more closely ?

Do you have any observations or suggestions, on this excellent proposal of IS MISE to exile, non-conforming, and/or disruptive crooks. For the express purpose of isolating them from other more conforming prisoners ?

Moreover, ONTHEBEACH you have a very practical mind there my friend, so you should be able to tease out all the nitty gritty that is associated with such a novel proposal, albeit a logistic nightmare ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 8 May 2015 10:26:24 PM
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.

Dear o sung wu,

.

Whereas I consider that the state has an imperious obligation to protect all those within its jurisdiction from individuals who, by their acts, have demonstrated their total lack of respect for the fundamental right to life of human beings, thus forgoing their own fundamental right to life, I do not classify drug traffickers in this particular category of individuals.

I consider that “capital punishment”, or what I prefer to call “euthanasia” (from the Greek, eu, “good” and thanatos, “death”) should be limited to particularly atrocious crimes such as child murder, serial killing, torture murder, rape murder, mass murder, terrorism, and premeditated, cold-blooded, murder that is carefully planned and executed.

By “good death” I mean “a peaceful and painless death, preferably in a warm, cosy environment”, with a maximum of humanity and as least pain, stress and suffering as modern science can allow.

Finding the most appropriate substitute for the execution of Messrs Chan & Sukumaran is no easy task. I am inclined to consider that the decision of the Indonesian judiciary should be respected in its fundamental principle of “permanence”, i.e., “as permanent as death”.

As regards the nature of the legal coercion to be imposed on them “for the rest of their lives” I should be tempted to seek something relating to the nature of their crime. It may be useful to train them to provide assistance to institutions specialising in the detoxification of addicts and abusers of various opioids, benzodiazepines, alcohol, nicotine, barbiturates, and other sedatives and drugs, etc.

This is, perhaps, something useful they could do for society for the rest of their lives, for a small pittance - just enough for them to survive on – whilst permanently wearing an electronic monitoring device.

In my opinion, they should not have the benefit of any possibility of remission of sentence for whatever reason. Their statute should be that of convicted criminals, equivalent to that of prisoners, though they would not be behind bars. In addition, I consider that they should not have the right to retirement as a normal worker.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 9 May 2015 1:43:38 AM
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Banjo Paterson, "I do not classify drug traffickers in this particular category of individuals"

There are drug traffickers and drug traffickers. There is a huge difference between those who plan to release commercial quantities of heroin or amphetamine (as examples) in Australia, and others who are moving marijuana.

It is about culpability.
"A person is culpable if they cause a negative event and
(1) the act was intentional;
(2) the act and its consequences could have been controlled (i.e., the agent knew the likely consequences, the agent was not coerced, and the agent overcame hurdles to make the event happen); and
(3) the person provided no excuse or justification for the actions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpability
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 9 May 2015 1:34:58 PM
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G'day there BANJO PATERSON...

You've raised some interesting points in your thread Banjo ? One is the convoluted or tangled questions posed ? How to administer the death penalty, in the most humane and painless way possible ? For the record, I'm implacably against Capital Punishment per se.

Nations that still practice Capital Punishment, have been seeking more humane, more painless protocols in order to put an offender to death, without generating a chorus of political and public outrage when an execution is badly bungled ? No one should be surprised to hear, the United States is leading the field in this rather unorthodox search ?

I'm sure we've all heard these unfortunate accounts where a lethal injection has gone awry ? Apparently all manner of horrific manifestations have occurred as witnesses watch helplessly as the unfortunate convict descends into the ugly throes of convulsions, and spasms of agony ? While being 'humanely' put to death ?

However it's quite possible to execute an individual, with a rifle or handgun. Providing the targeting is confined to the only effective part of the human anatomy, where death is instantaneous. Much like turning off a light switch.

That is to sever the 'medulla oblongata', located at the base of the cerebral cortex adjacent to the 'pons' (being part of the brain stem), that links the M.O. to the 'thalamus'. All this 'double dutch' is anatomically accurate and a proven way to effect instantaneous death. This 'point of aim' (therefore), 'point of impact' is taught to both FBI & Marine Corps Snipers, as the only 'point of aim' to remove any possibility of a reflex 'kill' by an armed hostage taker.

Make of this as you will ? I attended the FBI Sniper's Instructor's School, in the United States, mid 1986. There's been no further dissimilarity or reason to depart from this policy ?

Naturally, this preferred 'point of aim' is not always possible ? But it's the ONLY part of the entire human anatomy, that guarantees what is known as a; 'non reflex kill' ?

Many thanks for your contribution Banjo.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 9 May 2015 3:52:49 PM
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.

Dear onthebeach,

.

« There are drug traffickers and drug traffickers. There is a huge difference between those who plan to release commercial quantities of heroin or amphetamine (as examples) in Australia, and others who are moving marijuana.

It is about culpability. »
.

I agree. I have no trouble with your notion of culpability. I understand that marijuana is even less harmful to human health than tobacco. It seems there are 10 countries in the world that either have already legalized marijuana/cannabis or are planning to do so:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/politics/10-countries-that-have-or-will-see-marijuana-legalization.html/?a=viewall

However, as previously indicated, I do not consider that even the worst type of drug traffickers, the most culpable, are solely responsible for the consummation of drugs. If there was no demand there would be no offer, no market and no traffic.

There is necessarily shared responsibility. Who? I suspect partly the consumers themselves, partly society (stress, mode and various psychological, sentimental, family, social, economic and environmental, pressures of all sorts).

But even if some of the addicts who get hooked on drugs end up as human wrecks, I don’t equate the crime of supplying them with their self-administered poison on the same level as particularly “atrocious crimes” of first degree murder as defined in my previous post. There is no intent to kill, even if the consumer dies of an overdose.

I do not consider that euthanasia (good death) should be applied to drug traffickers, even those “culpable persons” whom you mention.

Philosophers such as Socrates, Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau argued that harmonious human relations are contractual in nature, the "social contract".

There has to be an agreement on the fundamentals of something for the relationship to work. Attempting to Harm or kill the other partner is not part of the contract. If that happens the contract is broken and the other partner is free to retaliate. In democratic societies, retaliation is the monopoly of justice.

It seems there is fairly robust support for capital punishment (but I prefer euthanasia) in most democratic societies for particularly atrocious crimes
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 10 May 2015 7:02:05 AM
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.
 
Dear o sung wu,
 
.
 
«  Nations that still practice Capital Punishment, have been seeking more humane, more painless protocols in order to put an offender to death, …  the United States is leading the field in this rather unorthodox search »
.

That is not quite correct, o sung wu. Effective painless protocols have existed for more than 30 years, since the Suisse set up assisted suicide agencies in the 1980’s which are now thriving.

It is interesting to note that “suicide tourism” doubled in Switzerland in three years between 2009 and 20012. In total, 611 foreign citizens died between 2008 and 2012. All but four were assisted with their suicide at the Dignitas Clinic, which charges about $10,000 for the procedure, and the vast majority used sodium pentobarbital – the same drug used during executions in the US:

http://rt.com/news/181980-dignitas-assisted-suicide-switzerland/

It is not a technical problem. It is a political problem. It is the result of European hegemony in an attempt to impose its ethical standards, not just on the US, but on the whole world. The biggest stumbling block is, of course, China, which counts for over half the world’s executions.

The problem in the US since 2011, the year of the boycott of lethal drug supplies to the US by European pharmaceutical companies came into effect, is not only to obtain sodium pentobarbital but also to obtain the other ingredients of the protocol as well:

Read: “Pharmacist groups discourage members from supplying execution drugs”:

http://circanews.com/news/states-short-on-lethal-injection-drug

Read also: “America's Lethal Injection Drug Crisis Starts In Europe”:

 "Our political task is to push for an abolition of the death penalty, not facilitate its procedure," said Barba Lochbihler, chairwoman of the European Parliament's subcommittee on human rights.
 
"The lethal injection that they are using now in certain states has never been tested, verified, let alone been approved for executions," said Maya Foa of Reprieve, a London-based charity fighting the death penalty. "This amounts to using humans as guinea pigs. No doctor would ever do that."

Botched executions are mainly due to European hegemony.
 
 
.
  
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Sunday, 10 May 2015 7:15:28 AM
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Banjo Paterson,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

It would be difficult to prove 'contributing fault' where minors are concerned. Also, in some areas - notably those re-jigged by feminist lawyers employed by government - there is no concession to nor acknowledge of contributing fault on the part of the victim. Conversely, law-abiding citizens duly licensed (with firearms licences) who are the unfortunate victims of theft are very closely scrutinised by police for possible ('contributory') charges and the penalties can be very severe indeed, including confiscation of expensive possessions.

Those examples are given to prove what I was alleging, that Australian law is very soft on the trafficking and dealing of 'hard' drugs, where custodial sentences might not even be awarded for commercial quantities. Yet authorities and the government are saying that Australia have a very serious, growing drug problem.

I agree that capital punishment is not acceptable in Australia.

On the other hand (and it isn't something you were arguing against), it is a bit much for supporters of the 'Bali nine' and other drug traffickers to place the fault on other countries for producing drugs and demanding strict enforcement and severe penalties (but not death apparently) where in Australia's backyard drug traffickers are given a smack on the wrist by courts.

There are limits on what Second and Third World countries can do and there are cultural considerations. What we might see as ideal isn't always practical for them for all sorts of reasons.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 10 May 2015 2:05:19 PM
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Hi there BANJO PATERSON...

I too would like to echo ONTHEBEACH'S appreciation, for your most comprehensive thread concerning the advances and the apparent international 'log-jams' affecting progress in humane and painless methods of capital punishment. I wasn't aware of what the Swiss were doing, in their own (clinical) advances, in assisted suicides ?

When you think about it Banjo, we're almost regressing in our search for extending our lives, at least for some it would seem, particularly those with terminal illness, and others who're are 'existing' on death row ? I was always under the impression, science and mankind were forever seeking ways to preserve life - yet on the other hand, our immensely clever Swiss are doing the opposite ? Trying to 'thin it out' as it were ? I'm speechless ? Thanks again Banjo.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 10 May 2015 4:13:01 PM
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.

Dear onthebeach,

.

« It would be difficult to prove 'contributing fault' where minors are concerned. »
.

That’s true but I doubt that children aged under ten (the age of criminal responsibility in Australia) would be prime targets for drug dealers.

There might be a few potentially solvent drug consumers in the 10 to 14 age bracket (legally presumed “incapable of crime” unless proven otherwise). It’s possible that some may earn money acting as drug dealers’ lookouts or steal from their parents or obtain drugs by other means but, again, I doubt that this particular market segment has much potential for development for people in the drug business.

Of course, once over the age of 14 the presumption “incapable of crime” no longer applies so “contributing fault”, at least theoretically, becomes a possibility.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 11 May 2015 7:55:31 AM
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.

Dear o sung wu,

.

« When you think about it Banjo, we're almost regressing in our search for extending our lives, … I was always under the impression, science and mankind were forever seeking ways to preserve life - yet on the other hand, our immensely clever Swiss are doing the opposite... »

.

As I see it, we are doing both, o sung wu. We are definitely extending our lives, thanks to scientific and economic development, though there is still much to be done in the underdeveloped countries.

At the same time, the individual continues to emerge in the developed countries, gaining in knowledge and autonomy, with greater awareness of the world in which he lives.

Today, he claims his individual rights, his “individual human rights”, those attributed to him by nature, the most fundamental of which is the right to life and death.

Unfortunately, society only recognizes life as an “individual human right”, not death. But life and death are two sides of the same coin. There can be no life without death and no death without life. The process of life and death is an evolutionary continuum. It is the process which is a fundamental right, not just one particular phase of the process.

According to the World Health Organisation, almost one million individuals commit suicide worldwide, each year - one death every 40 seconds. Many more attempt suicide (around 10-20 million) each year. Suicide is ranked as one of the three leading causes of death in the world among people aged 15-44.

We have been insensitive far too long to the pain and suffering of people wishing to lawfully exercise their right to life and death. They are left with no other choice but to have recourse, alone with their solitude and in a terrible state of despair, to the most barbaric, inhuman and expeditious methods in order to carry out their macabre enterprise.

Switzerland is the only country in the world that practices “full assisted suicide” and not just euthanasia for the terminally ill.

It is open to just about everyone.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 11 May 2015 8:04:38 AM
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Banjo Paterson,

I have mixed feelings about euthanasia and assisted suicide, mainly that people can be made to feel they are a burden or useless and that they could be given incentives to kill themselves prematurely.

I am not just referring to relatives, carers, hospitals and son on who want to be relieved of the problems of lengthy and difficult care.

Where government is involved and it always is directly or indirectly, it is highly likely that a future government might justify reduction in budget for aged care, palliative care and so on for the aged or those suffering late stages of terminal illness or even mental conditions, on the basis that there is an alternative - earlier death.

Having witnessed medical staff in a hospital deal with an elderly patient with a treatable cancer differently (slack care, withdrawal of care) when that condition was diagnosed, and having also witnessed the case of another man with terminal illness who was put on a bus by a religious care organisation and sent to his elderly sister for care, I am sure that assisted suicide could be taken advantage of by the clever unethical who are about.

On the other hand I have had close relatives who lingered, suffering pain and humiliation, independent people who pleaded for some control in their final months/years.

Where I was very interested in the Swiss model is that it is not restricted to terminal illness. I give a bit of my time (sadly, not enough recently) to helping elders whose families forget them and who cannot do some things, for instance basic home and yard maintenance. Those with cruel conditions like rheumatoid arthritis would appreciate the Swiss policy. Few might use it, but it would be a load off their suffering knowing there was that option available.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 11 May 2015 9:16:20 AM
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BTT

o sung wu,

I posted this on another thread, however it is relevant to this thread as well. Given your professional background it should be interesting and might even give you some pointers to test with your colleagues.

http://epsilennyt.com/NYTContent/Test/Template33/Images/threadconvergorgancrime.pdf
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 11 May 2015 10:44:41 AM
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Hi BANJO PATERSON...

Another of your thoroughly contemplative assessments, concerning this awkward topic of 'state assisted suicide' or euthanasia ? A discussion I generally don't enter into, or speak about, as my dear first wife, committed suicide, March 12 of 2014.

I fully appreciate the views of those people who support euthanasia. All of whom have had to witness extraordinary levels of suffering, from some awful terminal illness ? With absolutely no expectation of remission or recovery, with an outlook obscured by nothing but pain and suffering ?

Though proven expects in many fields, the Swiss nevertheless tend to characterise any problem, whether it's a health issue, or aviation as an example, with an inordinately glacial and analytical approach, without any cognizance of the human constituent concerned ? For this reason, I'm sure it will either be the Swiss, Austrian or German nations, that will lead the world in developing more sophisticated means of 'state assisted suicide' ?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 11 May 2015 3:17:19 PM
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G'day there ONTHEBEACH...

Thank you very much for that excellent Link you kindly sent ! Indeed a lot of useful material was contained therein, and even though I was well down the law-enforcement echelon, than those who were part of framing that excellent document. Nevertheless I firmly believe much of what they stated, is both valid moreover absolutely correct.

That section that dealt with the illicit activities of North Korea, with their 'state sponsored terrorism', which is partly funded by their heroin exportation to selected countries in the western world. You may recall the infamous 'Pong So' incident, a North Korean registered vessel that attempted to import a huge quantity (in excess of 100kgs) of No 4 heroin into Oz ? When the whole thing came to a head, they needed the assistance of the SAS, to force the Master of that vessel to turn about, and surrender his ship to the AFP in Sydney harbour ?

A very fine result was achieved, by the combined efforts of the AFP, VICPOL & NSWPOL, and not to forget the famous Australian SAS ! This is why ONTHEBEACH, why I've been 'bleating' so loud, for so long, trying to convince those of the 'Left' to recognise that we're ALREADY at war ?

And we're losing that war well and truly, because our politicians are not giving sufficiently enough attention, to the very real, but thus- far 'covert' threat, that Islamic groups like ISIS and others pose, to ours and other ill-prepared western nations ?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 11 May 2015 3:51:56 PM
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.

Dear onthbeach,

.

« I have mixed feelings about euthanasia and assisted suicide, mainly that people can be made to feel they are a burden or useless and that they could be given incentives to kill themselves prematurely. »

I agree, onthebeach, but, when all is said and done, the fact remains that we all have the right to choose whether to live or die. Pain and suffering should be avoided whichever one we choose.
.

« Where government is involved and it always is directly or indirectly, it is highly likely that a future government might justify reduction in budget for aged care, palliative care and so on for the aged or those suffering late stages of terminal illness or even mental conditions, on the basis that there is an alternative - earlier death. »

You’re right, onthebeach, governments do that sort of thing: “Old people should hurry up and die”, says Japan deputy leader:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/9817753/Old-people-should-hurry-up-and-die-says-Japan-deputy-leader.html

“Germany 'exporting' old and sick to foreign care homes”:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/26/german-elderly-foreign-care-homes?CMP=EMCNEWEML1355

It’s up to us, the people, to make sure the government does what we want - and to pay the extra cost. The government is not the problem. It’s us, the people, that’s the problem. If we truly want it, we can have it.
.

« I am sure that assisted suicide could be taken advantage of by the clever unethical who are about. »

Naturally there is a need for a certain number of safeguards to protect the vulnerable from the malevolent influence of ill-intentioned persons in their entourage. Just as there should be psychological, medical and social assistance for those who are in need of them. It is more than likely that many of those who see no issue to their problems, apart from ending their lives, may change their minds on receiving competent, on-going assistance from somebody who cares.

The Swiss now have over 30 years of experience practicing “assisted suicide”. A referendum in the Canton of Zurich in 2011 confirmed overwhelming support for the practice.
.

Please allow me to add, onthebeach, that I admire your humanity.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 11 May 2015 8:33:00 PM
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.

Dear o sung wu,

.

I am sorry to hear of your personal loss. Please forgive me for having touched on such a delicate subject on this thread.
.

« Though proven experts in many fields, the Swiss nevertheless tend to characterise any problem, whether it's a health issue, or aviation as an example, with an inordinately glacial and analytical approach, without any cognizance of the human constituent concerned. »

You could be right there, o sung wu, I guess each culture does have its particular characteristics.

It is, nevertheless, interesting to note that the relevant legislation was passed in 1937 but it was not until the 1980s that it was implemented by setting up assisted suicide agencies which are now thriving.

Although it appears that the current interpretation of the law does not reflect the original intent of the legislator.

According to a Bio Edge article entitled Switzerland’s “peculiar institution” by Michael Cook, 1 June 2013:

« Article 115 of the 1937 Swiss Penal Code states that: “Every person who, for selfish reasons, incites or assists someone to commit suicide, shall be sentenced to imprisonment of up to five years or a fine.” It was very far from the minds of the legislators of the time to promote assisted suicide. They seem to have had in mind situations like Goethe’s novel, The Sorrows of Young Werther -- “romantic stories about people committing suicide in defence of their own, or their family’s honour, and about suicides committed by rejected lovers.»

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 11 May 2015 8:42:28 PM
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Banjo Paterson,

Thank you for the kind comment.

Thanks too for drawing attention to the Swiss model.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 12 May 2015 12:16:10 PM
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Many thanks to you ONTHEBEACH and BANJO PATERSON...

Both of you tackled a very complex and convoluted Topic. I'm sure that none of us are rarely ever completely right or completely wrong. Only through the medium of rational discussion do we all learn so much, from each other. You're already know the immense admiration I hold you in ONTHEBEACH, even though your opinions occasionally draw 'fire' from those of the far Left !

BANJO PATERSON, I hope to hear much more from you. You certainly have a very firm 'handle' on this Topic I must say, again I learnt so much from you both, I really did. Thank you so very much.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 12 May 2015 3:59:05 PM
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.

Let us cease our idle chatter,
Let the tears bedew our cheek,
For a man from Tallangatta
Has been missing for a week.

Where the roaring flooded Murray
Covered all the lower land,
There he started in a hurry
With a bottle in his hand.

And his fate is bid for ever,
But the public seem to think
That he slumbered by the river,
'Neath the influence of drink.

And they scarcely seem to wonder
That the river, wide and deep,
Never woke him with its thunder,
Never stirred him in his sleep.

And the crashing logs came sweeping
And their tumult filled the air,
Then M'Ginnis murmured, sleeping,
"'Tis a wake in ould Kildare."

So the river rose and found him
Sleeping softly by the stream.
And the cruel waters drowned him
Ere he wakened from his dream.

And the blossom-tufted wattle,
Blooming brightly on the lea,
Saw M'Ginnis and the bottle
Going drifting out to sea.

How M'Ginnis Went Missing (1889)

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 12 May 2015 8:04:57 PM
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Hi BANJO PATERSON...

There's nothing like a piece of prose to carefully articulate a 'fact in issue' ! Again, I thank you.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 12 May 2015 9:01:46 PM
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I was reminded to retire to a comfy chair with a beautiful book of Banjo Paterson poetry a loved one gave me in 1981. She had noticed the prints I had about my home. Titled simply Poems by Banjo Paterson, it is illustrated by Pro Hart. [Lansdown Press, Sydney, 6th impression. 1980]

Prelude
I have gathered these stories afar
In the wind and the rain,
In the land where the cattle-camps are,
On the edge of the Plain.
On the overland routes of the west,
When the watches were long,
I have fashioned in earnest and jest
These fragments of song.
They are just the rude stories one hears
In sadness and mirth,
The records of wandering years —
And scant is their worth.
Though their merits indeed are but slight,
I shall not repine
If they give you one moment’s delight,
Old comrades of mine.
[Banjo Paterson, 1895]

o sung wu

Thanks to you too for your civility and dry wit.

Travel well.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 12 May 2015 10:00:36 PM
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In the case of someone like Ivan Milat I think the death penalty
would be entirely justified.

In the case of Daniel Morcombes killer, again, the death penalty is justice and entirely appropriate.

The death penalty needs to only be applied in the most horrific of crimes and common sense used in which crimes these are.
Not just willy, nilly for some drug pushers, who I grant you, reign misery and death also down on their victims. But it is not as cold blooded and without choice by the victims, as Ivan Milats crimes were.

Its simple- If you think you have the right to forfeit someones
life without any mitigating circumstances, then you forfeit yours.

Those anti-the-death penalty, are placing their sympathies in the
wrong place, with the purpertrator and not the victim.
In fact the punishment after the courts and appeals etc. should
be ultimately decided by the victims family.

Everybody else should butt out, because it wasn't their child or
mother or father who was murdered. If the family is willing to
for go their right to justice for their dead member, then that is
solely their call. It has nothing to do with the rest.
Posted by CHERFUL, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 10:26:28 AM
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I understand the feelings of those that see 'special' cases that they believe deserve the death penalty. In the case of drugs I have a low tolerance for those that engage in this despicable trade.
Equally, if the death penalty is going to be levied based on some perceived unquantified misery factor, then lots of cases can be made. Could not a case for the death penalty be made for the white collar criminal who defrauds a poor widow of her life savings, leaving her destitute and in misery?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 11:22:38 AM
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G'day there PAUL1405...

You've struck a bit of a raw nerve there old man ? In over the 32 years I did in the job, I tried unsuccessfully to enter the Fraud areana of investigation ? For some inexplicable reason those bastards who through deceit, cunning, guile, deviousness (all of which mean basically the same thing !) rip-off those poor folk through their ignorance or innocence, whatever you wish to call it; I'd dearly like to give 'em all a massively good 'serve', on top of a maximum gaol sentence !

I'll not cite any particular case, and I'm sure you'll understand why ? But you'd remember several company 'collapses' where your average 'mums and dads had lost everything, while the perpetrator's, (alleged 'company directors') manage to escape prosecution, and worse gaol ? All because of the clever way they structure their companies, and the part they play in those companies ?

A certain former 'federal minister', and someone even higher?? managed to evade a full investigation into 'something' ?? I believe because of the power they invoked in order to 'squash' everything ??

I'll say nothing more about that Paul......... ?

The smaller fraudster's and trickster's who manage to extract, sometimes the entire life savings from older people...well they're nothing but slugs and maggots. And I'd have great delight in doing a 'Mexican Hat Dance' on their disgusting, thieving heads !

So you understand Paul, my desire to interdict these very 'slick' slimy operators, has been a vocational passion of mine, that's essentially been unfulfilled ? Still you can't win 'em all ? As a footnote, cast you mind back, 'bout 25 - 30 years the activities of that federal minister and 'friend', might just emerge a little more clearly in your memory banks ?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 3:30:31 PM
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o sung wu,

As an aside comment on fraud and thinking of the leading edge, for instance, consequential to rapidly changing technology, the requirement for investigators/project staff/experts to first complete police training is to my way of thinking a major impediment to the recruitment of suitable skills.

Imagine combining your own skills and practical know-how in a team with bright young graduates with leading edge skills in forensic accountancy, information technology and so on?

I know why the police forces do things they way they do and yes they do offer some graduate recruitment. However, they are missing out on some very sharp weapons indeed, graduates esp higher level who would not complete the police training for good reasons - the first being that they would not be able to pursue their interests and research while being a police cadet.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 4:10:24 PM
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LOL, that should be 'side comment'. My editing sure suffers when I am 'multitasking'.

I'm off anyhow, c u.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 4:12:17 PM
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G'day there ONTHEBEACH...

A very valid observation, very valid indeed. You may've seen, I was rejected for the Fraud Squad, for very legitimate reasons, I was simply out of my depth ? A thorough knowledge of the criminal law is not enough for fraud, you must have the ability to 'tease out' the minute strands of concealed irregularities that form the foundations of building a matrix for a successful fraud Brief.

In order to do that, you must have investigators with a certain mindset in order to recognise any illegal entries contained in voluminous quantities of company disbursements, taxation memoranda etc., when you're confronted with it ? And me, I'd not have a clue ?

Fraud crime is generally within the purview of educated (but greedy) crooks. And as you so rightly opined, in order to catch these people, you need to have clever well educated investigators. And I don't mean 'academics' like your sociologists, criminologists or many of the other 'ologists'. Precisely as you say - forensic accountants, auditors, IT specialists etc.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 5:16:29 PM
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o sung wu,

There are degrees of white collar crime.

Many years ago,before the computer age and credit/debit cards I knew a chap who had numerous bank accounts and he would race into a bank just before closing time and make a large withdrawal (for which he always had sufficient funds), then the money went into another account and a few days later he rushed in just before closing time and so on with all of his accounts at different banks until one day with passport and plane ticket safely in his pocket he hit them all and before they woke up he was safely in his home country and probably impossible to trace.

Another bloke that I heard of who had a very good credit rating was leaving Australia permanently and before he left he bought up big on furniture and white goods on the 'never never' and all the stuff was for his friends, so it disappeared when he did. They gave him the deposit money for whatever it was that they wanted.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 6:17:07 PM
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White collar crime actually has greater social and economic costs than street crime, but people rarely care about it.

That being said, when those who think that drug trafficking warrants the death penalty start calling for the death penalty for certain white collar crimes, I will start to take what they say a little more seriously. As it stands, however, calling for the death penalty for drug trafficking is just an anger-driven opinion fuelled by ignorance and a flagrant disregard for malice as a sentencing consideration.

Is Mise,

White collar crime is a far broader term than that even. White collar crime can include stealing pens at the office. It’s actually not a very helpful term to use, but not even criminologists can agree on a suitable replacement.
Posted by AJ Philips, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 8:04:14 PM
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'evening to you IS MISE...

White collar crime does have many features, ensnaring many victims, including (invariably) the poor tax payer. Years ago the old (primary offence) of common law larceny, had many different interpretations, that covered a wide variety of crimes of dishonesty, today often referred to as 'white collar' crime.

Larceny as a servant; Larceny by mistake; Larceny by finding; just to cite a few lesser known offences under the term, common law 'larceny'. Today it's generally referred to as the Theft Act. I can't begin to explain adequately, but a good investigator MUST have a thorough understanding of the workings of the Companies Act, together with their Regulations, where many of the more serious fraud matters have their beginnings ? Interestingly, the two matters that you kindly cited, sound very much like 'False Pretences', hitherto an indictable offences. And a very common offence committed by a wide group of people in our community ?

IS MISE, I stand to be corrected of course ? However without knowing precisely all the facts of the two matters that you cited herein, it's a bit hard to know whether one can establish all the criminal proof's necessary to prove that of 'False Pretences' ? Interesting though !
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 9:37:32 PM
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I've never been for the death penalty. It seems wrong.
Posted by Luca, Thursday, 14 May 2015 7:23:06 AM
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What is wrong, Luca, is the concept of penalty, rather than the details.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 14 May 2015 8:49:44 AM
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