With the planned executions now imminent, do you or do you not agree that these two convicted drug dealers should be executed.

For the record, my view is that they should be executed because one, they knew the risks, and two, had they succeeded and made their millions, I seriously doubt they would have had any concerns for the lives they would have potentially ruined, as many of them may well have been minors.

You need to join the ABC jarheads.

If you plugged your brain into the ABC and suspended your judgement to permit downloading of the 'Progressive' spin you would KNOW that they are just boys and it was all an understandable, excusable even, prank.

Those saintly lads (see the photos) could never conceive of the possible harm 11kgs of heroin might do. The ignorance absolves them of blame.

But hey, in 'Progressive' circles, the well-off middle class soy latte sippers do drugs as recreation, bikie-supplied tabs and powder a-plenty and they would hotly dispute that heroin is bad, RELATIVELY speaking. It is all relative you must understand. Anyhow, what right do police have to interrupt the innocent and very jolly private pursuit of doing drugs?

Importers and dealers are necessary you see.

So of course they should be released pronto. They are as regretful of their crime as any arrested crim would be and that is good enough where a heroin trafficker is concerned, isn't it? The ideal? Home Scot free, a claim for compo against those AFP #expletives#, paid media interviews, a ghost-written book to sell and a sinecure swinging off the public teat.

While I do not believe in capital punishment, I cannot convince myself that incarceration for life - if life really meant life - is any less humane. However in Australia life doesn't mean life and the apologists for the two drug traffickers would be after transfer to an Oz jail and release soon after.

What I am finding most concerning ATM is the apparent ease of swaying the mob, either way. Not much has changed in propaganda since WW2 and the methods for creating and steering the baying mob, or in this case hand-wringing mob, are still the same only easier and cheaper to manage, with anonymity as a bonus.

Having made a diplomatic protest earlier we should not presume to be telling another country what to do. Embarrassing the new President will be expensive, making up for loss of face always is. So, what will the gifts be? A large area of prime agricultural land?

My "While I do not believe in capital punishment, I cannot convince myself that incarceration for life - if life really meant life - is any less humane"

should be,

"While I do not believe in capital punishment, I cannot convince myself that incarceration for life - if life really meant life - is any MORE humane."

It's unfortunate for the families of these two; and its unfortunate their deaths will be the direct result of the Federal Police dobbing them in instead of arresting them when they arrived.

Drug smugglers know the Indonesian policy and this gang of nine people thought they could outsmart not only the Indonesians but also Australian Customs. Perhaps they never heard the adage: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Personally I feel the death sentence in this instance is harsh punishment but I also wonder how remorseful and rehabilitated these two would be if they had been arrested in Australia and only served a couple years in prison. Chances are they would have got out and continued dealing.

OTB, the Bali 9 were not recreational drug users, they were drug smugglers with the intent to import these drugs home which they then intended to sell off without remorse for the damage they could cause to loved ones and their families. These two were the ring leaders.

To suggest they are kids is utter crap. They knew the risks associated with their trade and to be honest I can't believe the likes of Indonesia are being drawn in to the softer PC approach.

As for our Feds, if they see a crime in progress they must act because to suggest they could hold off to lessen the penalty is not how I would like to see our law enforcers operate. As a father and grand father myself, I would be very pissed if I knew my kids were offered drugs that slipped through the cracks all because our Feds grew a conscience.

No matter where you go the law is the law and if you don't know that then that's tough because breaking a simple law may be one thing, but trying to make millions without consideration of the effects on society had they succeeded is simply inexcusable in my view.

I just wish we would stop throwing money at this because we either have to borrow that money, or take it from some of our own, who by the way would not have benefited in any way had these two grubs succeeded.

rehctub,

I fear that some of my satire was lost on you. Probably my fault. :)

I don't have any sympathy for them at all.

Tony Abbott and others are foolish for nagging the Indonesians and putting the new President on the spot.

The President has the overwhelming support of the Indonesian people. Australia is making no friends in Asia by acting morally superior, especially where the two criminals Australia is defending were caught cold in the process of committing very serious offences.

Dear rehctub,

Indonesians have made it quite clear that -

"We will not compromise with drug syndicates and
drug dealers." That their law must be upheld.

We've heard this time and time again on the news.
And of course, on the face of it - this seems
fair enough. Or does it?

What's happened to the other nine involved in
the drug smuggling? I believe they were granted
life imprisonment. It seems that these two remaining
men would have also eventually been granted the same penalty
on appeal had the same people remained in power. However, the
current new President is gung-ho on the death penalty -
and apparently - nothing can sway him from it.

It will be interesting to see how much influence the
PM and the Foreign Afairs Minister Julie Bishop can exert.

Personally, I am against capital punishment. I don't
believe it is really about deterrence. It's about
retribution - about society's revenge on a person who commits
heinous crimes.

Whether such retribution is justified is not a matter of
measurable facts, it is a moral judgement for each
individual to make. And Indonesia it seems has made that
judgement.

No Foxy, it is about ridding our society of some very nasty useless scum, permanently. If it stops others great, but if not, at least, this pair well not be back breaking laws again.

This is the only way to get rid of such scum. Put in prison, just like Corby, they will be out again, trying some scam, in no time.

Personally if the Indonesians are having trouble finding the ammunition, I'll send them some, if it will speed the process.

The time taken is the only bad thing in my opinion. They should have been done with in days of the guilty verdict. All the rest really is torture of them & their families.

Dear Hasbeen,

Thank You for sharing your moral judgement
with us on this occasion.

Some people feel that those who kill another
human being or commit heinous crimes
such as drug trafficking - should pay the
supreme penalty and forfeit their own lives,
others feel that human life is so sacred that
society is demeaned when the state kills its
citizens, however grave their offence.

In any event, Indonesia has already decided the fate
of these two men. And you're right in pointing out
that the death penalty should have been carried
out immediately, but it never is - I guess to
minimise the chance of an innocent person being
executed. Courts permit an elaborate review
process that sometimes lasts a decade or more - as
has happened in Indonesia - in this case.
Of course had the Australian Federal Police not
reported this matter to the Indonesian authorities -
and allowed the drug smugglers to make it back to Australia
than they would be serving a life sentence here and
we wouldn't be discussing this case.

"Of course had the Australian Federal Police not reported this matter to the Indonesian authorities - and allowed the drug smugglers to make it back to Australia.."

It was the offenders not the AFP who chose Indonesia as the place of their arrest.

As any reasonable thinking person would realise, the police are compelled to make the arrest as soon as the physical evidence is acquired. Otherwise the evidence could be lost. As well, members of the public could be placed at risk an longer than absolutely necessary before police make their move.

The ABC is playing a lead role in fostering disquiet about the AFT and risking Indonesian/Australian relations with its speculative gossip and stirring in lieu of reporting the facts. To their shame, Tony Abbott and crew and L'il Willie Shorten and crew are being swept along by the media on this one. If they had a walk in any street and met the working public and took less notice of the Twits of the Twiterati and media hacks out to sensationalise, they would not be pressing Indonesia they way they are.

The media, the commentariat and the the politicians are putting SE Asian noses well and truly out of joint over two drug traffickers. There is a very real risk that the hard yards diplomacy of PMs and senior bureaucrats before them will all be undone. It took years for Australia NOT to be seen as such a fat-@rsed, privileged, judgemental, carping white nation looking down on Asia. There are resentments simmering away in Asian countries that could easily re-surface.

These people are not being executed for what they done.
They are being 'topped' because it is the law of the land.
Perhaps a few kids might think twice now.
Bit silly at this point for their lawyer to make a statement that the trial judges could be bribed but that they didn't have enough cash to meet their prices.
That will ensure the executions take place for sure.
I had a mate who married the "Matron" of Changi prison in Singapore.
She was the person that pulled the handle that hung Barlow and Chambers for their drug crimes.
She said the executions hardly raised a comment in her country because they were expected under the law.

I think capital punishment is primitive and does not serve any purpose other than saving money compared to keeping someone behind bars for life.

They knew of the risks involved with exporting drugs from Indonesia, saying they were playing a 'prank' or that they were ignorant of what they were doing is naive.

I tend to think about the pain and misery to our sons, daughters and friends their greed could have meant to Australians.

I think our government dollars would be best spent on stopping the scourge and proliferation of drugs in Australia rather than waste their time trying to save greedy people who try to import heroin and other drugs into our country.

I find all this weeping and wailing about the two men sickeningly hypocritical. Where's the sympathy for the boys, the mothers and children, the innocent shopkeepers, blasted to bits or burned to death in drone strikes by the Australian coalition in Yemen and elsewhere? Hundreds and hundreds maimed, burned and in agony for the rest of their lives. Families torn apart...orphaned children alone and scarred...they weren't drug smugglers, they were just ordinary people who happen to get in the way of our bombs. And don't say we didn't do it. We are the USA's most trustworthy allies and they wouldn't be there if we weren't.

Hmmm .. I think you all need to know a little bit more about how the system operates in Indo.

And do please consider having a heart for the local Indos, as they are the ones who bare the burden of what I am about to say.

You see, in Indo, if you want to join the police or become a judge or the like (any decent position of status) you have to pay, and by Indo standards, a significant amount of money in order to get the job.

This is perhaps a mechanism by which the families who have money control the place and stay in positions of influence. It has little to do with merit which is one of the reasons these kinds of countries stagnate.

And of course, as soon as say Mr Policeman has his job, the first thing that is on his mind is getting his capital back.

So, you see them making their monthly rounds of the Pussy parlours and the drug dens etc etc And or if you turn up at the court, and you pass the attitude test, and it is not a matter which is in the international spotlight, the first thing the registrar will do is wander off to see if the judge is in a position to "help."

Of course, if you fail the attitude test, or start running off at the mouth, refuse or are unable to pay, then you are likely to be screwed as the normal processes of the law will proceed, and once matters have been escalated, there is little likelihood of anything other than the hammer coming down hard.

ybgirp: Where's the sympathy for the boys, the mothers and children, the innocent shopkeepers, blasted to bits or burned to death in drone strikes by the Australian coalition in Yemen and elsewhere? Hundreds and hundreds maimed, burned and in agony for the rest of their lives. Families torn apart...orphaned children alone and scarred.

They're Moslims, they had 1400 years to get used to it & they are. You didn't mention Sunni, Shiite, Whabbie, & any other Terrorist groups running around murdering people. You have only blamed the West. I take it by your comment that you side with the SI SI/SI SL/ or whatever they want to call themselves this week. You should get over there. I think they need people like you.

Now back to the subject. I agree they executions should have taken place at the earliest convenience, not 10 years later. Waste of resources.

These people had no regard for the lives that would have been lost had their endeavour succeeded. Then, they would have done it again. Apparently this wasn't their first trip either. Saying that they have been rehabilitated is crap. Every time someone gets caught they find Religion. Play for the PC Sympathy Card, yair, right.

It costs tens of thousands of Dollars to keep one really bad prisoner in jail per year. The cost of a bullet is a good investment.

Sympathy for the parents, No, they knew what their children were up to & by the way they were not children they were adults & as adults they must take responsibility for their actions. They had their chance to bring their offspring up properly & failed.

Blaming the Federal Police is BS. The Police were doing their job & co-operating with their counterparts in Indonesia. Indonesia's Laws are valid in their Country. Australia is too lenient on these types of people. They would have been out by now, selling their story & laughing in the faces of parents their Drugs had killed.

I hear of Drugs, I'm straight onto the phone. Even the School Kids at the School behind me.

Foxy, it's my understanding that the rest of the nine were mules and these two were the leaders. Personally, I would have shot all nine because ignorance is no excuse.

While my stance may appear extremely harsh, what would you prefer we did with what is now a limited resource, our taxes.

Personally, I would rather not waste money on the likes of this as I'd rather see a sick kiddy get that life saving operation/treatment, or perhaps put it towards improving the care for our elderly or even improve our health system in general.

I wonder if Tony Abbott's (and the Coalition's) agenda on this matter is actually more about winning back some votes if their appeals to Indonesia are successful.

They are dreaming of the headlines 'Big hero PM saves two from execution' or Executions waived demonstrates the great relationship PM has with Indo president.

But I doubt they will be spared.

Abbott: Ring, Ringggg. "Listen, Joko, ol' mate. I need to do some posturing to appease the Left Wing PC, Greenie people. Don't take any notice of what you hear, Ok."

Joko: " I know what you mean. I have to appease the Jihadists. Listen, we need some more Jizyah Tax. When can you arrange to send some more, Aid. You're falling behind in your payments."

Abbott: "Oh, Sorry mate. I'll send a coupla Billion straight away. that'll help pay for your Subs, OK."

Joko: "Right, be quick about it." Click.

Dear rehctub,

I fully understand your feelings.
And you're not alone.

Many people feel the same way.
Indonesia is determined that
their laws shall be upheld.

Personally, I question the usefullness and morality
of the death sentence. I don't believe that it's a
deterrent. If the death penality deterred - then
drug smuggling would not be such a problem in
Indonesia that it currently is. It continues regardless,
despite the death penalty. The fear of death appears not
to be a powerful deterrent. The offenders obviously
do not expect to get caught or to be convicted.

All in all it seems that risking the death penalty is a
gamble the perpetrators are prepared to take.
Surely there must be a better way of dealing with crime
in a civilised society - than taking human lives?
Indonesia however, does not seem to think so.

Yes ConservativeHippie, I think you are on to something there as I too felt Tony was being influenced by public opinion. Why on earth he is still in the top jobs concerns me as I'm of the opinion he has passed his use by date, not to mention alienated anyone who has thoughts of one day becoming a republic.

Foxy, had Corby been executed (not that I'm suggesting she should have been) I would most certainly suggest that the Bali nine would not have done what they did, especially had this scenario played out before they offended. Not only that, if these two are executed I am certain any Australian even considering smuggling drugs from Indonesia will think twice.

Dear rehctub,

I'm not so sure. Drug Lords are based in this
country and operate successfully and they will
continue to do so no matter who's caught in
Indonesia.

I think that more would have been achieved if the
Australian Federal Police would have waited and
arrested these two guys on their home turf - and tried
to find out who they worked for. I'm sure that
their "bosses" are still selling the drugs that
these two mugs got caught trying to bring back here.
After all they did not do this on their own. They
were just the "couriers" while the "King Pins,"
live in Australia and continue their trade.

And I'm sure they will continue to recruit others to
do their dirty work.

It is simply amazing how the uninformed can mislead themselves into believing that the AFP and its international partners would not have examined every possible avenue and risk and balanced the available options for collaring as many of the criminals involved in planning, carrying and eventually distributing that shipment, and not losing control of the drugs.

Some complete idiots are even suggesting that Australian Customs and police hold back information and not cooperate with their international partners where an Australian criminal is suspected of planning or committing a capital offence. Crazy.

Foxy: and tried to find out who they worked for.

You don't think they would have interviewed them about that. If they would have given up their names their family would have had an accident by now. that's how these bosses work.

No, the best idea is to catch them over there & make a big example out of them. Yes you will still get idiots who think they are better than the Security Forces & try it on. What happens next enhances the Gene Pool, Ay. Hang their pictures everywhere where they can be seen clearly. Let the idiots know that they can't win & will be caught. Caught overseas, they're dead. Great stuff. no sympathy & no compassion.

otb,

You seem to know a great deal about the "uninformed"
and "complete idiots." The rest of us will just
have to accept your word on those matters.

Dear Jayb,

I guess we'll never know the full facts involved
in this particular case. We can merely speculate.
It will be interesting to see whether our Prime
Minister and the Foreign Affairs Minister succeed
in their attempts to have the death penalty revoked.

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

Your reference to Messrs BARLOW & CHAMBERS brought to mind, that hitherto much criticised 'suspended sentence' proved successful ?

I thought Australia learned decades ago that the very best way to get backs up in the region is to do precisely what senior politicians on both sides of the Parliament are doing now. -Being seen to lecture, act morally superior to and presume to interfere in its domestic affairs of a near developing country.

What Australian politicians and the senior public officials who have also made their opinions known are doing is living off and very rapidly trading away the goodwill that was very hard won and built upon by the leaders and diplomatic staff who preceded them.

Coming off the back of fairly recent complaints by Indonesia about embarrassing faux pas by Australia examples being spying and navy incursions into Indonesia's territorial waters, and what some Indonesians might see as unfair criticism of food animal handling and slaughtering practices, the international embarrassment Australia is causing Indonesia could be seriously detrimental to future relations and relations with other Asian countries as well.

The timing is poor as well, the Indonesian President has just been elected and has a strong mandate from within and international encouragement to deal severely with drug gangs.
TBC

contd..

It is very concerning how federal politicians are being led into short-term political populism, competing for headlines and ridiculous popularity polls. I blame much of that on the number of career politicians in the federal parliament - men and women who did not get where they are by demonstrating superior leadership and achievement in the private sector. They are lightweights and poor prospects where statesmanship and good judgement are concerned.

I am waiting to learn what very expensive concessions our federal politicians will be obliged to give in the near future as a penalty for the loss of face being caused to Indonesia and indirectly to other countries in the region. I would venture that parcels of prime Oz agricultural land -highly valued by other countries but not by feckless Oz governments- will be part of the deal.

As for the 'Progressive' $1.3 billion per annum ABC, the public is becoming rather used to it batting for every other interest but Australia's. No news there, just business as usual.

Dear rehctub,

It's always interesting to read what alternative media
has to report on any given issue. It broadens our
perspectives to what's found in the Main Stream Media
and it challenges existing powers. One of the
prerequisited for a democracy is access to information.
If citizens are given false or mis-leading information
the democratic process becomes a sham:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/life/life-display/chan-and-sukumaran-executions-indonesias-bali-payback,7375

OTB: Indonesians might see as unfair criticism of food animal handling and slaughtering practices.

Said like the video we saw of the Cattle being slaughtered was real. It wasn't. The woman who caused the furore was responsible for the whole set up. She bribed the watchman & paid some locals to do the killing. That's why the Greens dropped it when she was found out.

I believe, as reported on the Mid Day News, that the Indo's have a problem accommodating 10 prisoners in their local holding Cells. That's what the delay is all about.

Foxy: Drug Lords are based in this country and operate successfully and they will continue to do so no matter who's caught in Indonesia. They were just the "couriers" while the "King Pins," live in Australia and continue their trade.

You are right Foxy. The top King Pins are much too Powerful (Upper echelon of the Legal Profession) to be caught. Something I learned, from personal experience, when I was 17 years old & embroiled in the National Hotel Affair in Brisbane in 1963/4. an' you wouldn't want to cross 'em. Many a person went on a one way trip on an outbound freighter. Believe me, that's what the old Latvian was for.

Foxy: One of the prerequisite for a democracy is access to information. If citizens are given false or misleading information
the democratic process becomes a sham:

Er, Foxy, that's why they have official Doc sealed up for 30 years & some never to be released. Then there are things like when you local Poli tells you that he got you the by-pass for the town. That sort of thing is on a 25 year plan. The Poli who is in at the time it goes ahead then claims it was their doing. All BS.

Take the New Railway Station in Townsville, for one. The Survey marks were in place long before I started work on the Northside Workshops in 79. The model of the plans were shown in the Workshop Lunch room in 92. The Station wasn't built until 2001. For two, the New Workshops at Stuart were planed in 1945 & not started to be built until 1993. I was with the first group to start there at the Wagon Maintenance Workshop in 1995. We had Poli's everywhere claiming Kudos for the great work they had done. Unfortunately for them one of the old Foreman had News paper releases from 1945 & subsequent years the starting date was released, again & again.

The executions will go ahead. I, for one, will be glad. I will be cheering for the same fate for any other fool who wants to try them on. Is it a deterrent? I don't really care. The more dead Druggos the better.

Dear Jayb,

Thanks for that.

I've got to admit that I found the article that
I found on the web and cited in my earlier post
very disturbing to say the least. If anyone has
any other evidence - to the contrary - please
present it here. I for one would appreciate
reading it.

Jayb: Unfortunately for them one of the old Foreman had News paper releases from 1945 & subsequent years the starting date was released, again & again.

That old Forman brought a house at Oonoonba, a new Townsville suburb in 1945, when he got married. Oonoonba is in walking distance from Stuart. On the day he retired they turned the first sod on the Stuart Workshop site. It was a big day for the Poli's. Needless to say he was not impressed.

The old Northside Workshop site is where they are going to put the New Townsville Football Stadium.

One can just bet that when they eventually build the new Toowoomba Range By-pass in a hundred years time that some Poli will claim that as their Idea. Grrrr.

It seems that many of our politicians are digging a hole for us, Abbott, Bishop, aven Bill Shoreten, by taking a stance against Indonesia for their planned executions.

Taking the emotion of out the situation, our leaders are openly trying to shame indo into going soft on their drug laws, which in turn is placing unwanted, even unwarranted strain on our relations, all for two drug smugglers who knew the consequences if they got caught.

Far too much paid for too little gain in my view.

If there is one lesson in all this for indo, it's that should this happen again, and some dick wads get busted smuggling drugs there, that the indo government should notify the press, and the country of origin of the offenders that they have been executed and the bodies are ready to be collected.

Laws are laws and just because we have politicly correct limp wristed leaders and law enforcers here, doesn't give us the right to preach to others on their law enforcement policies.

Perhaps it's time we re evaluated our policy on executions for the likes of cold blooded murderers,terrorists, sex offenders and rock spiders. I may be entering my senior years, but I'm still a pretty good shot and would be willing to pull the trigger

The point is we can't keep doing things knowing the laws, then cry fowl when caught. It's the reason life in prison here has so many meanings.

rehctub,

Exactly. Could there be a more obvious example of Australia interfering in the domestic affairs of a developing country?

We the taxpayers will pay a heavy price to make amends for Indonesian loss of face. The politicians chase populism, hamsters on the 24 hr news wheel, and our children and grandchildren will suffer the loss of the prime agricultural land and other rights that will be offered to recompense.

It will have spill-over effects for dealing with economic migrants and other serious matters where goodwill with Indonesia and other countries in the region is a prime concern.

Dear rehctub,

I'm not sure about your premise - to
not interfering in the matters of the affairs
of other countries.

We get involved in the affairs of other
countries in all sorts of ways - from foreign
aid, military action, wars, to
providing assistance as required. Cooperation
with our neighbours in all sorts of ways
has always been government policy and provides
stability in the region.

Providing protection and aid to our citizens-
and in this case - asking for clemency
is afterall what our citizens and their families
expect their
governments to do on their behalf.

I am not sure where International Law stands in
these matters - or for that matter human rights
laws - but I do think that the men are entitled
to attempts being made by their government to
seek clemency on their behalf.

I'm also not sure about Indonesia's motives here.
The death penalty has not been a deterrent to
drug smugglers. This may be simply a political
decision by the President of Indonesia to appear
to be strong. Also, the Indonesian lawyers for
the two men have stated that the judges have inferred
that if money was offered to them - the sentence
would be more lenient - apparently no money has
been offered thus far.

We've also been told that there are
also moves by the new President of Indonesia
to stamp out corruption in high places - which
confirms what the lawyers of the two men are saying
about the judges' requests for payment.

Foxy: Providing protection and aid to our citizens.

That is exactly what their deaths is providing. Deterring others for trying it on. The will, of course, be others that will try it on, get caught & suffer the same fate. I just feel sorry for all the people that have lost loved ones because of these people.

Foxy: but I do think that the men are entitled to attempts being made by their government to seek clemency on their behalf.

But that's all they can do. Our Government can't interfere with their Laws. What if some Saudi comes here & threatens to kill a woman because she is driving a car on her own. Should the Saudi Government interfere with our Judicial System. Should they demand that their citizen not be charged? I think not. How say you?

Foxy: Also, the Indonesian lawyers for the two men have stated that the judges have inferred that if money was offered to them - the sentence would be more lenient.

Oh I don't doubt that for one minute. You have to understand how Society works in 3rd. World Countries. Offering Gifts (We'd call them bribes) is the normal way of conducting business. Nothing unusual here.

In Australia we have the same system only we call it, "Donations for services rendered." Nothing unusual about that.

Foxy: there are also moves by the new President of Indonesia to stamp out corruption in high places.

That only means that he will get in on the act. That's all. He is just wanting his share of the "Gifts."

I think their are a number of good arguements for and against the death penalty although the idea that its not a deterrent is leftist dogma with no evidence but quoted by every brainwashed unthinking person.

Dear runner,

Logically thinking - you can't blame the
"Leftists." If capital punishment was a
deterrent - Indonesia wouldn't have the
on-going drug problems that it has and yet
despite capital punishment the drug-trade
continues.

Dear Jayb,

Capital punishment is not a deterrent.
The drug trade will continue regardless
of whether these two men die or not.
The system is corrupt - and will continue
to be corrupt - we both agree with that.
As you stated -
That's the way business is done in Third
World Countries.

We all feel sorry for the victims of drug
trafficers. Especially when the "King Pins"
responsible (as in the case of the "Bali 9"
as apparently free and living lives of luxury in
this country.
However our government is not
interfering with the laws of Indonesia -
they are simply appealing for clemency under
an already corrupt system.

As for what the Saudi government would do
regarding a woman driving a car in Australia?
Well, so far as I know the Saudi government
has not voiced any objections on that matter.

o sung wu,
If they are not 'topped' there will be a deal for them to be deported back to Australia on the basis that they are imprisoned for life without parole.
That will cost us a fortune and the Indos will have solved their problem as well as keeping face.
The definition of 'life without parole' will be modified and they will be back on the street within five years.
We saw the similar circumstance with the French in NZ after the "Greenpeace" incident.

Fox,

You are in complete denial if you believe that Indonesia, leaders and people, do not rightly see the comments - some implied threats (such regarding foreign aid - as interference in Indonesia's domestic affairs.

You need to travel in the SEAsia region to learn for yourself the jealousy and hatred of Australia that is scarcely below the surface.

Indonesia is a developing country and has vastly different problems and priorities to Australia. The culture and traditions are very different AND they want it to stay that way.

Some multicult you are if you don't recognise that. You are living in a fairy land.

Diplomatic representation and what Australia is doing are chalk and cheese. Indonesians believe they are being patronised, preached at and lectured to by fat, comfortably well off 'whites' whose sense of entitlement and insensitivity prevent them from understanding and from showing respect by not nagging when its President has already made several responses.

Repairing the diplomatic damage will cost the Australian taxpayer dearly. Most here are honest enough to acknowledge that on previous occasions where Australia has interfered (examples give earlier) the PMs at the time have fallen over their own feet giving expensive presents (eg aircraft and patrol boats) and other valued concessions to make amends. This time I would say that control of prime agricultural land will be part of the deal.

otb,

Since when have you become such an expert on Indonesia.
And where is the evidence of what you are spouting is
true.

I don't claim to be any sort of an expert. However, I do
glean my information from experts - political commentators
who live in the country - and know its politics very well.
Julie Bishop, our Foreign Affairs Minister is an extremely
capable person - and I am sure thatb she will be able to
repair any damage that our PM has done or will continue
to do - as she's done in the past.

You're entitled to your opinions, of course, however unless
supported by evidence and reason - they don't really amount
to much.

Foxy: I don't claim to be any sort of an expert. However, I do glean my information from experts - political commentators who live in the country.

Foxy, I know you have a lot of smarts so you should know, What is said in the Media, what is done at Diplomatic levels, what is said privately & what the people in the street all believe are all poles apart. What is said in the Media is supposed to appease the readers who believe it. The media has to sell papers & the Government has to walk a fine line between the Left who want to save a Drug dealer & the Right who want vengeance for their dead children.

Dear Jayb,

That is precisely why I use a variety of sources not only
the Main Stream Media. Independent media provides alternative
information to what the MSM presents - and it also aims to
challenge existing powers.

Fox,

You are consistently naive, clueless on SEAsia.

You do need to travel and see for yourself that what I said in mt earlier post is diplomatic, an understatement.

My post: onthebeach, Saturday, 21 February 2015 10:59:27 AM

You need to widen your vistas beyond those 'independent' sites.

Actually, linking the aid to Aceh with what Australia wants now was a terrible cultural gaffe that would have gone down like a lead balloon, and terribly damaged Australia's reputation amongst the Indonesian people.

To understand why, you need to understand what "ungkit-ungkit" means in Bahasa Indonesia.

To translate into Australian, you could perhaps say:

"To dig up the past"

but to place it into context, if one gives something in Indonesian, and then at a later point goes looking for some advantage, that it to say, that which which was taken to be given as a gift unconditionally, is to incur a great loss of face and as said, a great loss of reputation.

So, clearly, Australia is being advised by extremely culturally knowledgeable people (NOT) and worse still, if the guvment is not serious about its word, i.e. pull foreign aid in its entirety from Indonesia if it does not comply, then we will become something of a great joke.

..

But then who takes seriously people who abuse children anyway.

otb,

You have no way of knowing the extent of my knowledge
on any subject. You are merely making assumptions
because possibly my opinions don't happen to agree
with yours.

You seem to be determined to see everything through
a conservative prism - and if the reality doesn't
fit your predilections that reality is ignored.

The day that you change your posting style, and are
not hostile to evidence and reason - is the day
that I shall give your advice more credibility.
Until then -
it's best that you work on yourself first, before
advising anyone else on this forum.

DreamOn, "Actually, linking the aid to Aceh with what Australia wants now was a terrible cultural gaffe that would have gone down like a lead balloon, and terribly damaged Australia's reputation amongst the Indonesian people"

Agreed.

The cultural 'experts' who advise government remind me of that fake who provided sign language interpretation on stage for Nelson Mandela's memorial service, attended by scores of heads of state, and was simply "making childish hand gestures" for hours.

The cultural experts are unaware for example of the strong commitment made by Indonesia and its neighbours to free themselves from the scourge of drug trafficking. Drug use is hugely expensive for the health budget. The spread of HIV for instance is also linked to drug use. They were encouraged in their commitment by Australia, which arguably had everything to gain because almost all of the drugs produced in SEAsia are consumed in the region.

Now here is Australia, silent until two of its own serious criminals are caught cold with a swag of heroin, going well outside of the realms of diplomatic decency and friendship, patronising, embarrassing and nagging them.

Fox,
Get on a plane and visit SEAsia. Try out your leftist 'Progressivism' there.

Honestly, you have no idea how patronising you are to Indonesians and dismissive of the problems they face as a second world country trying to rid themselves of drugs when there are many thousands of well-off, fat-assed professionals and other soy latte sippers here elbowing one another out of the way to buy drugs.

otb,

I'll happily get on a plane -
after you. Then we can both share our
experiences. I'll even introduce you
to my many friends and colleagues with whom
I talk regularly. ;-)

@rehctub

i agree with you.

they are criminals motivated by greed with no consideration given to the thousands of lives lost and destroyed (18,000 deaths due directly to drug abuse p.a.)
they went to another country to commit such crimes with their eyes and pockets open
and they are convicted in the court of law ( meet the reqms of the advocates of due legal processes and technicalities)

i am skeptical about their conversion... more like they are saving their skin (see how effective death penalty and barbaric 24 strokes of the cane can do)
even if they are genuine, that can only be good for their souls
and may this serve as a grim reminder and warning to australians that not all nations are as stupid and forgiving as us in such matters

hang them asap and let us start to educate our children... and some older members here in this forum

Dear Platy,

Many of us could certainly use an education on a
variety of subjects, that's for sure.

However, killing these two by firing squad is not
goind to solve Indonesia's drug problems. If
capital punishment was a detterrent - Indonesia
would not have the ongoing drug problem it has.
And no matter how many they kill - the problem
continues to exist. The society is corrupt.
Their judiary is corrupt, their police are
corrupt, and drugs are freely available - even in
their jails.

Killing people is not going to change any of this.

Foxy: The society is corrupt. Their judiciary is corrupt, their police are corrupt, and drugs are freely available - even in their jails.

True. Can I quote you at other times on other subjects at some other time?

Killing people is not going to change any of this.

Maybe not in Indonesia but if it's given enough Air Play & TV time & advertised everywhere possible here, maybe, just maybe, it might get through to Australians who inclined to do those things here. If no then Bang!

Dear Jayb,

Now you're making fun of me.

But that's allright.

Decisions about capital punishment are not
really about deterrence. They are about
retribution - about a society's revenge on
people who commit what are seen as heinous
crimes. Whether such retribution is
justified is not a matter of measureable facts,
It is a moral judgement for each individual/country/state -
to make. And apparently Indonesia (for whatever reason
it chooses to give) has made its decision.

In any event, there are as we know many people who do favour
the death penalty.

Personally, I don't.

Fox, "The society is corrupt. Their judiary is corrupt, their police are corrupt, and drugs are freely available - even in their jails"

Something you might remind yourself of when you are spruiking the endless 'diversity-Australia-has-to-have' and lambasting as 'racism' and 'xenophphobia' the often expressed suggestion that immigration should always be preferring the most suitable migrants.

Many here would remember your dogged refusal to accept the substantial evidence that the cruel sexual abuse and trafficking of young girls in Rotherham and other UK centres was directly consequential to and rooted in Kashmiri migrants from Pakistan importing their corrupt political system, culture, values and criminality. Similarly Somali Muslims must be assessed as being far higher risk.

However where it suits your convenience you are caustic about the culture and institutions, government and judiciary in particular, of Indonesia. By implication too, you trash other SEAsian countries who are trying to root out the corruption from drugs - drugs that many of the Australian educated middle class (and soy cafe latte leftists) - readily buy to encourage the drug trade (and trade in illegal weapons, remember terrorist Man Haron Monis and his illegal gun that authorities say was smuggled into Australia!).

Thanks though for providing another example of the difficulty the leftists experience where others try to engage them in any discussion of morals. The leftists not having any solid ground where morals are concerned, it is all relative, and believing in survival of the opportunist with the most recent glib excuse.

otb,

Are you for real?

Blaming "Leftists" again.

Goodness me, - can't you come up
with a different argument just once - preferably
one of some real substance.

You're really becoming a total bore and not worth
either reading or responding to.

Do you not have anybody at home that you can run
your posts by. You need advice from someone if
you're not prepared to listen here.
Because honestly - singing the same song from the
same song book - has stopped working long ago
for you. Boring!

Foxy: Decisions about capital punishment are not really about Deterrence. They are about retribution - about a society's revenge on
people who commit what are seen as heinous crimes.

Well, you can look at it like that if you want. I see it as about Deterrence & I guess those people that are for the death penalty do too. Those who see it a retribution see it as revenge.

I would say it's a bit of both. There are those who have lost loved one to Drugs & are somewhat bitter towards those people who traffic & push Drugs.

I would say a 60/40 split in both camps.

Yes, I was having a friendly jibe. ;-) XOXOXO

@foxy

we do hold different views on solving the scourge of drug abuse and on capital punishment

a. i respect our south east asian neighbours' sovereignty to adopt laws of their own

b. i hold on to the sanctity of life and precisely because of this, we must have laws to protect life...if you take away life..you will have to pay for it
australians have this tendency to look at the murderer's rehabilitation rather than on the loss and broken lives of the murdered... weird
and often, these murderers on parole commits repeated offense and the Poirot Commission of Inquiry will invariably recommend more indepth studies.... while the rest of the world utters "huh?"

we live in such a dsynfunctional society.. child abuse...child sexual abuse by their teachers (listen to the news today on knoll grammar school)...abuse of women in domestic violence... rampant drug abuse.. one punch murder...

endless

maybe we should do a self examination of our own ills before we prescribe a broken system to a 'corrupt' society?

thks

Dear Jayb,

I can't argue with what you've written.

And I loved your jibe. ;-)

Dear Platy,

Great post.

Totally agree with your reasoning.

Thank You.

Want to know why they need to be executed?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869230/Bali-Nine-ringleader-Andrew-Chan-mastermind-international-drug-deal-went-horribly-wrong-threatened-17-year-old-mule-Hong-Kong-jail-mouth-shut.html

All that needs to be said.