After observing the many discussions and arguments concerning the attempted Islamization of some hitherto Christian and/or secular Countries in Europe. Is there any prospect or expectation that in the medium term, they may ultimately peacefully co-exist for the benefit of all ?

And what of our own fair country ? While the overall Islamic demographic in Australia is relatively small, there's no doubt their presence does receive more than the 'lion's share' of media attention, and in general discussion ?

I don't know the answer ? However, if we can't learn to live together, to make provision for each other's traditions and belief systems, and attempt to acculturate in some measure, to each of our respective cultures, then I have great foreboding for all our futures, because nobody can win a religious war.

From what I have read o sung wu, the society in Spain, when they ran the place, was basically secular, prosperous & happy, so some brands of Muslim belief can nix with others successfully.

However we have a bunch with huge chips on their shoulders, & we have a problem. They hate us for being superior in all things, & rubbing their noses in it when ever we compete.

We are going to have to get much tougher with them, which won't help their disposition much in the short term.

We are going to have to stop them slipping off to the middle east, to bring back yet another cousin child, [or very young] bride, sticking them in a housing commission house as a single mum, & using them to out breed us.

Ultimately their women going to school will lead them to revolt I believe, even they are not dumb enough to not see how badly treated they are. Still, I don't think it will be in our lifetime, & it is probable quite a bit of blood will be spilt before any integration will occur.

I suspect that our (Australian) position on this is going to have very little positive influence on the outcome.

Change, as we know from experience in fields as far apart as alcoholism and politics, can only come from within. External influences merely exacerbate the conditions that created the problem in the first place. An alcoholic's first reaction is to dig in - I can handle it, everyone is making a fuss about nothing - while a political system, however flawed, is maintained by an adherence to the status quo by those most likely to be inconvenienced by any change. Hence all the rise of the mini-revolution - Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, the whole "Arab Spring" thing - as the only remaining means to get attention.

Whether or not they have actually generated any real change is still unclear. Perhaps the simple fact that they occurred at all (Tienanmen, anyone?) is enough to set in motion some kind of liberalization in the longer term. History will tell us.

In the meantime, there is a severe danger that whichever side we choose to support will only be disadvantaged by that support - "Great Satan" etc.

It's a dilemma, that's for sure.

the head in the sand approach is not sustainable. Many secularist are dumb enough to believe that like Christians muslims will turn the other cheek. The atrocious abc regressives will continue to mock Christ and everything decent but have no guts in publishing a cartoon regarding Mohammed. THe double standards from the media and regressives will continue until it bites them which it is bound to do.

Look at Indonesia. A country that has a majority Islam, is secular and has a significant population with other belief systems.

Too many of you think that the Saudi type of extreme Sunni Islam heavily funded world-wide for the last 30 years, without any scrutiny, from the earnings of oil is the only way Islam is practiced.

It's the most successful forcing of a particular form of religion on a world scale since the Spanish and Portuguese 'Christianized' the Americas with their brand of Catholicism still in the thrall of the inquisition and burning of witches.

We could learn a thing or two from that.

yvonne

obviously blind or ignorant of the massacre of Christians in Aceh. If Indonesia is your model Australia is in heaps of trouble.

runner, the reports I know of on that suggest it was carried out by Hundu extremeists. An example here http://m.asianews.it/index.php?art=13449&l=en

If anything thats about extremism rather than a particular faith.

The issue for me in this and taking into account Yvonne's comments is about a future whe extremism in some religions seems to be on the rise. In particular muslim extremism and what the future holds for our nation with pockets of either moderately anti-western or extemist followers of a faith that does appear to give plenty of scope for very violent dealings with opponents.

The moderates bother me enough because I suspect that much of the groundwork for radicalisation is laid by moderates who may not promote the violence but who teach the young over and over again of the evils of non-believers ways.

R0bert

'morning o sung wu,

The last time Islam coexisted with other religions was under Mongul rule 1221 to 1262 under superior military force, When the Monguls took out the Assasins and captured Baghdad and Damascus, Islam was a pussy. Now Islam is a potent socio-political force in the western world and it is basically too late for many.

It's interesting that ISIL tactics are very much based on those of the Monguls who defeated them.

For much of the EU and the UK it is already too late. There is no appeasement of Islam and the most dangerous amongst us are those who think appeasement has value.

It seems that Temujin Kahn laid the foundations of the defeat of those bits of the world he did not subdue, by proxy through those he did subdue, Islam.

Islam, like the Monguls, is fighting internecine battles to slaughter their own and anything else that they don't like. Within western society they suck on the economy through Halal compliance, draining the social services budget and force us to appease through political correctness.

There is a long way to go with Islams brutality and social incursion, sadly we are ill prepared as evidenced by the EU experience.

We cannot make informed decisions as we are not well informed, consequently we will continue to follow the PC path to being dominated by ignorance.

Under Ogodie Kahn, the Muslim community in Baghdad were subjected to the import of 30,000 piglets from Armenia which were to be fed and washed every Saturday and they were forced to eat pork under pain of beheading.

Sounds like a cure to me!

'morning Yvonne,

You have a tentative grasp on facts. Saudi Arabia is based on Wahabi Islam and definitely not Sunni, their main enemy. Just go to KL and watch the Saudi males arrive in white robes, the women in full Hijabs at the airport, then by seven PM they are out in western clothes ready for hitting the clubs and copious amounts of alcohol.

You say "too many think"........etc, don't you think it's time you did the same, at least to the extent that you get your facts right?

Wahabism is a philosophical movement within Sunni Islam.
Yvonne,
Indonesia is one of the most egregious modern examples of the violence inherent in Islam, about a million people were murdered by religious extremists in the 1960's, tens of thousands in East Timor and West Papua and nobody really knows how many died in Aceh and Kalimantan. When I was in Lombok one of the guys we hired to take us out snorkelling at Gili Trawangan pointed out to us on the boat ride the beach where his people beheaded thousands of "communists" in the 1960's and threw them into the sea.
Apart from the wars on the subcontinent Islam in Indonesia has the most horrific body count and the dictator Suharto was propped up by his fundamentalist Islamic support base.
As for Malaysia silly middle class white people never bothered to read any of the writings of Mahathir or listen to Najib exhorting his racial supremacist brethren in UMNO to be "Brave like ISIS" in their fight for political and ethnic survival.
Heck I agree with him when he makes staements such as the following but I'm sure you don't Yvonne:
“For example, when someone dares to fight to their death, they can even defeat a much bigger team.
“As proof — whether we agree or not is another matter — the group ISIL with the strength of just 1,300 people, can defeat an Iraqi army of 30,000 soldiers, until four, five generals with three, four stars run for their lives, jump out the window at night. Why? Because they are afraid of those who are brave,”

A very interesting collection of views thus far ? From what I've read it would seem there's very little chance that we, or any other western (Christian) democracy can live harmoniously with them. Though as HASBEEN pointed out, in Spain at one time, Muslims and Christians alike, did manage to live quite successfully together ?

The only question that I have, do any of them actually want to be wholly accepted by us here ? Or would most of them wish to remain quite isolated from the broader Australian community. Or is it their express wish to remain in their own exclusive, cloistered community, albeit peacefully ?

I understand many of the more moderate, more vocal Muslims, wish to live completely amicably and co-operatively within ordinary Australian society ? It would seem the younger, more angry second generation Muslims, they seem to resist any attempt to dissuade them from living in this isolationist environment, notwithstanding they're born here ? Why, what have we done that they would seek to turn on us, so malevolently, and so venomously ?

I can point you folks to some very long videos where so called "moderate" Muslims talk about the inevitable destruction of the West and the Zionist entity, how they're going to take our sons and send them back to us as conquering Jihadi generals like Ali Pasha.
Have we mentioned Sufis? All the silly White people love "mystical" Sufism ,but here's a leading Sufi Imam talking about Islamic eschatology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAqGA92rc1Y
Who are the Wahabi's? What is there message ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JTd9R2K9js

O Sung Wu,
The idea that medieval Spain was tolerant and "multicultural" is wrong, it's based mainly on rhetoric from Jewish-German historians who lived much later and the stories of "convivienca" are coloured with contemporary, or at least post Auschwitz ideas of Jewish identity.
Why Cordoba? by Mark Tracy
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/42700/why-cordoba
You have to understand that when we're talking about history as a discipline the ideas of a tiny number of people hold sway and that the interpretation of history is always extremely subjective.
This is especially important to understand when you're dealing with anything relating to Jews and Judaism, all other historians (and more importantly the mainstream media) defer to the point of view expressed by their Jewish colleagues so we end up with one or two Jewish academics dominating the entire field.

Thank you, Jay, for the link to the interview with Sufi Sheikh Imran Hosein,

It is long and I'm yet to find the time to watch it all, but the beginning is promising, indicating that the Sheikh is a wise person, worth listening to. Here is an excerpt from the beginning of the interview:

"Which is why if you look at the television screen today, and I don't have a television in my home, Morris. If you look at the television screen you see that the images keep on changing rapidly, rapdily, the rapid movement of images on a television screen is in order to be able to block the mind from being able to cocentrate and from being able to penetrate into reality, so that you remain someone who is imprisoned in superficiality, in the fleeting moment. That's all you do. you are living and you are in prison in the fleeting moment."

So O Sung Wu, you asked:

<<It would seem the younger, more angry second generation Muslims, they seem to resist any attempt to dissuade them from living in this isolationist environment, notwithstanding they're born here ? Why, what have we done that they would seek to turn on us, so malevolently, and so venomously?"

Perhaps it's not what we done, but what we failed to do: for the most part we provide no positive alternative, only superficiality. Young people are thirsty for something deeper which can provide them with a sense of direction and purpose - if we don't provide it, then they look for it in ISIL (and when they discover their lies, it's already too late).

Jay,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml

Read under "Golden Age" heading. Some historians believe it was false and that Jews and Christians were treated as second class citizens. Reference - Bernard Lewis "The Jews of Islam". Muslims held contempt for Jews and Christians and worse for atheists.

http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2012/10/02/what-george-orwell-would-think-about-the-liberal-appeasement-of-islam/

"When George Orwell was struggling to find a publisher for Animal Farm, he was repeatedly turned down on the grounds that the book would offend the Soviet Union."

Liberal appeasement of Communism then, and what now? Sounds familiar. History repeating itself again and again.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Peter Costello pointed out in his book,
"The Costello Memoirs,"

"Australia is often described as a successful
multicultural society. And it is, in the sense
that people from all different backgrounds live
together in harmony. But there is a predominant
culture just as there is a predominant language.
And the political and cultural institutions that
govern Australia are absolutely crtical to that
attitude of harmony and tolerance."

"Within an institutional framework that preserves
tolerance and protects order we can celebrate and
enjoy diversity in food, in music, in religion,
in language and culture. But we could not do that
without the framework with guarantees the freedom
to enjoy diversity."

The point being made is that "unless we have a consensus
of support about how we will form our legislatures and
an agreement to abide by its laws, none of us will be able
to enjoy our rights and liberties without being
threatened by others. We have a compact to live under a
democratic legislature and obey the laws it makes. In
doing this the rights and liberties of all are protected."

Costello tells us that "Terrorists and those who
support them do not acknowledge the rights and liberties
of others - ... and as such they
forfeit the right to join in Australian citizenship."

"There is one law we are all expected to abide by - its
the law enacted by Parliament under the Australian Constitution.
If someone cannot accept that then they don't accept
the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for,
Our State is a secular State. As such it can protect the
freedom of all religions for worship. There is not a separate
stream derived from religious sources that competes with
or supplants Australian law in governing our civil society.
The source of our law is the democratically elected
legislature."

We need to be very clear about this. We need to ask all
of our citizens to subscribe to a framework that can
protect the rights and liberties of all. And we should
expect all Australians to subscribe to them.

o sung wu,

Algerian president Houari Boumedienne "One day millions of men will leave Arabia to go to Europe. And they will not go there as friends. They will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory."

former President H B 1932--1978

I believe the Algerian president was correct and the event is now happening.

Hence my belief that Muslims see themselves as pioneers for Islam when they immigrate to western countries. They will eventually take over by force of numbers.

Look at the influence they have in some European countries and in the UK. Some government ministers have been muslim and some are now talking about the first muslim PM.

Australia needs to take action now to prevent similar.

There is an old saying "violence begets violence."

A plot by extremists to kill Australians generates a backlash of anti Islamic behaviour which creates more extremists.

I can only see a few options to cut this cycle.

1 Don't arrest 2 men with 100 in dramatic fashion.

2 Don't release information in a format that sensationalises their crimes,

3 Block the imported mullahs that teach a radicalised jihadist version of Islam that has no place in a secular democracy.

2 and 3 of course are difficult to enforce in a free democratic society.

Constance,
If Jews and Christians truly lived in peace and harmony under Islamic rule in Spain then it's probably the only example of this happening in the history of the Islamic movement and is therefore irrelevant.
During this "golden age" jihad was raging across the middle east and Asia and Jews and Christians were being exterminated or enslaved wherever the Muslim armies found them, not to mention the millions Hindus and Buddhists put to the sword.
By some estimates only 80 of the last 1400 years have been free of Jihad and the massive purges and mass murder events have continued into the present era. The Armenian genocide in the 1920's and the killings in Indonesia in the 1960's are the two most obvious examples and don't be shocked if we see millions of people slaughtered as the Jihad in West Africa ramps up in coming years.

BANJO, what are you doing to this old man eh ? You're worrying the life out of me, that's what ? Sadly, that's EXACTLY what I think is happening now, this giant religion has started to quietly mobilize and it's tentacles are inexorable spreading out across the western world. Why, because they can that's why ? Most, not all western nations, are steadfastly trying to comply with political correctness, and attempting to conform with United Nation proclamations and decrees on human rights edicts and conventions, Islam has caught us all napping, and has moved in !

Moreover, the western superpowers, the likes of the US, Britain and France, don't appear to have the stomach or the will to meaningfully challenge these people. So with all the aerial bombardment and providing advice to the Iraq military, without a massive full frontal assault against ISIL and wipe them out completely, they will remain and only become much stronger.

There are some cities in the UK where Islam now holds sway. So powerful, and so influential are they, successive British governments are at a loss of what to do about them with their massive domination in some Midland cities. The same can be said of France, with the largest Muslim population of any other European country, approaching seven million ?

To answer my own question...? I no longer think there's any hope that we can peacefully co-exist together, quite the contrary I'm afraid.

Hi FOXY...

Your quotation from Mr COSTELLO'S book inter alia '...There's not a separate stream derived from religious sources that competes with, or supplants Australian law in governing our civil society. The source of our law is the democratically elected legislature...'

I would agree with everything he's said. The trouble being many of these second generation young Islamic blokes, don't feel it necessary to conform to our 'secular' jurisprudence ? Rather they consider our laws as being wholly subordinate to their Islamic beliefs, which are infinitely superior to everything else.

As Australian citizens, they enjoy the same entitlements, concessions and privileges as any other citizen. Yet they turn up their noses to everything that doesn't suit them ? Notwithstanding, they seem to execrate, even revile many of our freedoms and rights we all enjoy ? An example; if they're arrested, they're inordinately quick to demand taxpayer funded legal aid ? Yet they'll vocally condemn and deride our justice systems ?

Unless our government (whoever is in power) does something proactively and relatively soon, to protect this once great country of ours, from this rapidly burgeoning group of fundamental Islamists, we're headed for a real lot of trouble. Only the most closeted optimist cannot see what's occurring, not only here in Australia, but all over the western world FOXY.

O Sung,
The great fear among Europeans who are not brainwashed by egalitarian fantasies is not that Islam will win it's that ordinary Europeans will fight back when things finally get out of hand, when churches and synagogues are being bombed and non Muslim people murdered on a daily basis.
Most of the Muslims could be peacefully expelled over a period of decades by simple legislative changes, banning their kids from attending school, cutting off their access to welfare and health services and so forth until the only ones left are very old.
The most likely and unfortunately the worst case scenario is civil war between Europeans where the Muslims are the meat in the sandwich, there's going to be no negotiation with the Whites who would be in power during and after such an event and we know what Europeans are capable of when they're restless or under threat.

Hi there JAY OF MELBOURNE...

What a dreadful prognosis you've given us my friend ? If only the respective leaders of the Country's that appear to be the most affected in western Europe, to have had the initial foresight to see what was happening, particularly Britain with their policy of unfettered immigration, perhaps much of this could've been avoided ? Now I suspect we'll never know.

It's for this reason, I can't understand why we, here in Australia aren't sufficiently motivated enough to commence some proactive measures, in an endeavour to try and avoid what might ultimately occur over in Europe ?

O Sung Wu,

Sorry to spoil your day ole fella but am sure you have been aware of what I said for some time. It was acutely brought home to me during the last Lebanon-Israeli war when thousands of 'Aussies' demanded that our government get them out of Lebanon. We brought them back and then held classes for them to be informed as to how Centrelink could help them. They had previously moved to Lebanon but still received Aussie benefits. I could not believe that so many 'Aussies' were there in a country no bigger than my uncles back paddock. They are duel citizens, now living in Lebanon.

I do not agree with JoM at this point, there is no need to expel anyone. At this point it would be sufficient merely to stop muslim immigration to contain problem at about present level. We import about 30,000 a year currently. After a time we could re-asses the situation, but the difficulty now is getting the polys to acknowledge there is a problem. Surely they can see the problems of not integrating and the issues in UK are well known.

It will get far worse before it gets better.

the 'progressives'have trashed every bit of Christianity in England and are now reaping what they have sown. The same is happening here. The mantra that all cultures and religions are equal has been pushed by secular bigots who know that it is an outright lie. Just look at how the regressives continue to destroy the aboriginals by ignoring abhorrent practices and perpetuating myths. Culture triumps over truth and that is certainly what has led us to this mess.

O sung sometimes great plans are defeated by a small unforeseen circumstance.

There is some chance that the women whose wombs they plan to use to conquer the west may object to being nothing but wombs. They might see that in western society women are valued for a little more than their brood mare capacity.

On the other hand, I'm not sure a takeover would be all that detrimental to any of us, who could pretend to be devout to their god.

They would most definitely clean out the bludgers from our societies. I expect there would be a great reduction in welfare recipients, single mothers, academics & bureaucrats. It would not be a good time to be green, homosexual, or an ABC staff member, I would guess.

Changing this bunch for a bunch of Muslim clerics may make very little difference to most of us, in fact we may not even notice, apart from some blood in the street. The way we are going with our growing debt, we may already be too poor to notice any real change.

I am very pleased I told my kids to not concentrate only on security, but to have lots of fun along the way. You & I may have lived in a time when storing our wealth away for old age had much going for it, but I'm not too sure it will help our kids by the time they reach our age.

Not to worry, I reckon you & I will be gone, before it gets to be too much of a problem old mate, & if not we could still go out in a blaze of glory

@Foxy, Thursday, 13 November 2014 9:21:03 AM

Somehow I very much doubt that Peter Costello would ever have intended any support of an open door immigration policy, or that Australia shouldn't be discriminating in who was offered citizenship.

There are numerous infamous cases where long stayers and economic migrants for example have been easily able to defeat deportation and eventually gain citizenship.

It is quite obvious that the policy you wrongly imply that Peter Costello might have meant and supported, viz take any and all and hope that the law can take care of them later, introduces an array of serious problems that can extend beyond the lifetime of the unsuitable foreign interloper.

Asking that they enter into an agreement to obey laws is ridiculous.

otb,

You again are putting your own take on things.
Not mine or that of Peter Costello's.

You should go back and read my post - which by
the way I have cited from Peter Costello's
own book. If you have objections - to what he's
stated - that is not my problem.

He does not advocate an "open door" policy as you imply.
Neither do I. We have a strict selective criteria
for immigation in this country. And we have laws which
Peter Costello makes quite clear that -

"...Ultimately, however, it is important that they
know there is only one law and it is going to be
enforced whether they acknowledge its legitimacy or not."

Again, Peter ostello stated that:

"After the London Underground bombing of 2005
I was troubled by the fact that young people born
and raised in a democratic society could turn to
terrorism and kill their fellow citizens in the
name of Islam. I gave a speech at the Sydney Institute
in which I argued that freedom and tolerance can be
protected only within a legal framework that is
accepted by all."

Anyway, if you don't understand what's being said or
find it ridiculous - that is not my problem, but yours.
I cited directly from Costello's book - and if you don't like
it - well as they say - you are entitled to your opinion.

What you are not entitled to do is put your own
assumptions about what is in my posts.

I would appreciate it if you would stick to your own
posts and not twist things in mine - to suit your own narrow
point of view.

There's a good chap!

Banjo,
I was talking about Europe specifically, I'm unconvinced of the notion that we have a Muslim problem in Australia and in general I see them as an antidote to further expansion of the cancer of Locke and so called "enlightenment values".
A scenario:
What I can see though is that in Europe the Left and Centre have nothing to offer the indigenous population and their values are completely incompatible with Islam.
What will happen is the rise to power of Nationalist or neo Fascist styled parties and this will be violently resisted by the Left requiring the state to intervene, this opens the possibility of civil war.
The "motif" or rallying point of the Nationalists will be something like "reconquista", the much smaller Left wing militant groups will be quickly exterminated and attacks upon immigrant groups will draw in NATO and EU forces to keep the peace.
Eventually peace negotiations will have to occur with centrist politicians siding with the Nationalist/Fascist groups and giving in to some of their demands for the sake of harmony.
The vast bulk of the non European population of Europe will either leave of their own accord or face ongoing persecution, the ethnic mix might look something like it did in 1900 and the people in power will not be the types to negotiate on "human rights".
We've seen it before, most recently in the Balkans and it'll happen again on the continent, most probably beginning in France with smaller movements in other countries.

I am of the opinion that Australia will continue to grow as an increasingly secular country that won't be towing the line of any particular religion.

I look forward to that happening, and knowing that these religions that have caused so much angst in so many ways will slowly die out, as people start to see reason.

The question ought to have been "Can a Democratic society peacefully co-exist with Islam?"
The answer is that it can, until it is taken over and becomes an Islamic State.

Islam is a political movement, blessed by Allah.

@Foxy, Thursday, 13 November 2014 7:12:16 PM

You say then that your previous savage criticisms of the government of which Costello was part and of LNP administrations since was undeserved and all a mistake, because now you have changed your mind?

Or are you saying that Peter Costello is a liar and a hypocrite and actually does not support LNP policies on immigration.

What you are doing is indulging in semantics to score shabby political points, by claiming that Costello supports the opinions you have expressed on immigration over the years.

You and Peter Costello are chalk and cheese. You take Costello's carefully crafted speech to convert it into your spin. Otherwise, please show your posts over time supporting for instance, the Howard policies on migration. Or alternatively, show a clear difference between Costello and Howard that might support your views.

I am sure that partisans for the other side could show where Rudd, Shorten and others support LNP policies too. Interesting rhetoric for partisans of both sides but a complete waste of time, because the public are not so gullible and vote.

Now, what about you come up with some arguments to support to counter the obvious criticisms of yours? See here from my previous post,

<There are numerous infamous cases [some presently in the media] where long stayers and economic migrants for example have been easily able to defeat deportation and eventually gain citizenship.

It is quite obvious that the policy you wrongly imply that Peter Costello might have meant and supported, viz take any and all and hope that the law can take care of them later, introduces an array of serious problems that can extend beyond the lifetime of the unsuitable foreign interloper.

Asking that they enter into an agreement to obey laws is ridiculous.>

Hi HASBEEN...

You say inter alia '...you and I will be gone, if not we'll go out in a blaze of glory...' It's the 'blaze of glory' bit that worries me !
I reckon we had the perfect grounding back in our era, so I guess we should count ourselves as being very lucky to have experienced those eclectic times ! I reckon, the forties, fifties and sixties were a great period to have grown up. Sure my family were dirt poor, though we always had food on the table, each of us had one pair of shoes etc.

Still life was simple and generally predictable in our day. Many of the poor kids of this generation, have so many injurious distractions; the likes of drugs, alcohol, and a politically based education system, it's no wonder some find it hard to remain straight and on an even keel ? I know I've always been a little too critical and judgemental with some of the youths I've needed to deal with when I was working. Often forgetting how difficult it is, for normal Aussie kids to successfully carve out a life for themselves. So I can only imagine how some of these young Islamic blokes must feel ?

Not only do they experience the same pressures a normal Aussie kid will feel, but they have the added impost of acquiescing to the will of their dominant family members. And later on, the Imam's at their local Mosque, as well as the strict tenets of their Islamic faith ? I do accept, most of them don't enjoy an easy ride.

Whether or not it's us and our western secular culture, that has 'radicalized' some of them, I really don't know ? However I don't believe for a moment, it's sufficient motivation or excuse for some of them to become so enraged with our society, a society that's given them so much. And in return, they repay us by behaving in such a sadistic feral manner ! That I really don't understand at all ?

o sung wu,

Australia must learn from the very sad Rotherham (UK) experience - which is ongoing with no end in sight.

While the political correctness of political 'Progressives' was responsible for paralysing government authorities that should have acted instantly, it was the toxic political system, traditions and culture thoughtlessly imported from the Kashmir, where there has been a conflict for years between Pakistan and India that introduced, embedded and protected the sex and drug trafficking and other serious crimes as well.

The federal government and its senior bureaucrats in foreign affairs and immigration would be failing the Australian people where they cannot show they are firstly, cognisant of all risks of immigration and secondly do not have strong controls in place to protect our safety and way of life.

A non-discriminatory immigration policy is the aim, but that should never be taken as meaning that Australia should not be discriminating in its encouragement and selection of potential migrants. Government should always err on the side of caution in what applicants it accepts.

Spindoc, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism. I know it's only Wikipaedia, but thought it might be a simple start for you.

Wahhabism is an extreme form of Sunni Islam. The main enemy of Wahhabism is not Sunni Islam, but Shia. Hence the debacle with Al-Maliki, who is Shia, and the subsequent rise of ISIS. Hussein was Sunni and kept the Shia in control in a less awful way than what subsequently happened after the overthrow of his dictatorship by a Shia majority government in Iraq, supported by the West, wanting to keep the Sunni down a notch or two.

Your comment shows how dangerous it is for ignorant Westerners who know nothing of either Islam or the history of the region to militarily involve themselves in 'regime change'.

Remember the Iran-Iraq war? Sunni dominated country against a Shia dominant country fighting for regional power. The West supported Saddam Hussein's Iraq against the Shia Iranians. The Iranians hate the Saudis with a vengence and vice versa.

I have a very, very good grasp of the history of the Middle East and of the various forms of Islam. Unlike yourself.

otb,

It may help if you paid closer attention to
what a person has actually said - not what
you think they said.

I am not interested in responding to your
attempts to provoke.

There is no difference between godbotherers.
They are all Dangerous!

Mikk,
So the Salvation Army, Little Sisters Of The Poor and Brotherhood Of St Lawrence or Chabad Lubavitch and B'nai Brith are on a par with,Jemaah Islamiyah, ISIL and the Taliban are they?
The Wahabi and Salafist beliefs are the most modern, up to date interpretations of Islam, they're the cutting edge, pun intended,even though all debate about the Koran was supposedly settled in the ninth century. In contrast to that way of thinking the Catholic and Protestant churches are all "progressive" and are constantly shifting positions and adapting their activism and the structure of their ministry toward embracing more of the secular concerns of the present era.

Hi Mikk,

Psychologists would suggest that there are 'open thinkers' and 'closed thinkers'. 'Open thinkers', perhaps a slight misnomer, tend to see that the world is very complex, in ways that they may not comprehend fully, and that rules and principles often have exceptions. They are 'open' to changes in the way they see things. They can tolerate uncertainty, up to a point, and the sort of incompleteness of everything.

'Closed thinkers' have ready, simple answers to everything. For example, 'it's all f*&%ed', or 'they're all nuts'. Therefore case closed: everything has a clear and simple answer. No uncertainties, let's move on.

Thank you for exemplifying the difference :)

Joe

'There is no difference between godbotherers.
They are all Dangerous!'

if u were to ask unborn babies they would tell u that god deniers are far more dangerous

‘morning yvonne,

There is nothing wrong with Wikipedia for general information, so you don’t need to trivialize it with “it’s only Wikipedia”. However, if you had read further into the Wikipedia link you provided, the answers are in fact there.

There are thousands of other links on this topic but at least you actually looked.

It has been said on this thread that Wahhabism a “philosophical movement within Sunni Islam” and that it “is an extreme form of Sunni Islam”.

Whilst I agree with both statements this is nothing to do with my assertion that “Saudi Arabia is based on Wahhabi Islam”.

Wahhabism it the official State Religion of Saudi Arabia and definitely not Sunni. Wahhabism is sponsored and driven by the State and the House of Saud.

Yes there are reportedly 52% of the population who are Sunni and yes there is reportedly a 15% to 25% Shia population however, Wahhabism is the State Religion and refutes all other forms of Islam and the enemies of Wahhabism are all other forms of Islam, Jews and Christians.

The House of Saud ruthlessly applies the harshest form of Islam on all its subjects. It is the ultimate power governing all social, religious, legal, economic and political policy, all enforced by the religious police, the Haia. More so if you happen to be Sunni or Shia and naturally less if you are Wahhabi.

Saudi Arabia differs little from any other Islamic totalitarian state, the main variation is the type of Islam they use to control their subjects. The Saudi’s are having to tread very carefully because their population does not provide majority support for the state religion of Wahhabism, but that’s dictatorships for you?

If you want to explore more on the risks to Saudi Arabia of the minority rule of Wahhabism, Google up some fun on the topic of the risks that the Islamic State (ISIL) poses to Saudi Arabia?

This might also shed some light on why there can be no appeasement of any form of Islam in any country on the planet.

Jay,

Their peace speak is only when the world is oppressed by Islam. Yes, the so called Golden Age in Islam is probably bull and they treated the Dhimmi’s as second class. Yes, short lived if ever.

You can get rather confusing sometimes. Islam is a problem, with the combination of tacit support of the so called progressives and Leftists. We are now living in a post Christian world. Christians are the most persecuted in the world. Finally, someone like Prince Charles has actually recently made an official statement on this.

Too many people see the world in black and white. It is complex.

Yuyutsu,

I totally agree with you. The problem is that one extreme creates another. That is, extreme secularism in the West. The West is losing or has lost its soul. There is so much garbage on television, music. etc. I don’t usually watch much telly but have been lately, on other channels other than the ABC and SBS. No wonder Muslims are having trouble coming to terms with the West. They cannot come to terms with the hedonism and its superficiality and liberalism. Why are Muslim women wanting to cover up more in recent times and never seemed to before?

Here is an explanation by a native Egyptian Jesuit who takes into account recent history and the growing extreme secularism in the West; poor education in Islamic countries . Exacerbated by the West’s meddling in the middle east.
http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/father-samir-on-isis-what-they-are-doing-is-diabolical/%23ixzz3CCHeuFxw#.VAboCz0ayc0

The West is having a psychological crisis and is getting uglier. We're turning into zombies. No passion, mere emotion. I find a lot of your posts very interesting and have had some nice experiences in Hindu cultures, outside of Australia, that is. A healer I once met said that Christianity and Hinduism are actually pretty similar, and I tend to agree.

Spindoc, another link to help in understanding the complexities of the power struggle within the Middle East for power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

Isis is a Salafi movement within Sunni Islam. Wahhabis are also Salafi, but the Salafi movement believes themselves to be even more superior than the overarching Islamic Wahhabi belief system. That's why they are now perceived as a danger by the royal family of Saudi Arabia. The excesses of the Saudi royal family are anathema to the Salafi movement and it is becoming increasingly precarious, downright dangerous, for several of the royal families in that neck of the woods. They all depend on the notion that their presence is ordained by Allah.

The slaughter of other Muslims by the Salafis is truly horrendous. The rise of the Salafi movement did not happen in a vacuum. Extremist responses never are.

The question for direct Western involvement is essentially, what is our role in this power struggle, if any, and what are going to be the consequences of even a win. Even if ISIS were to be destroyed, will that remove the reasons why it arose? Probably not, which means, we'll have to get used to another acronym or name as the 'Great Evil'.

The genie, rumbling for a number of decades in the Middle East,including Afghanistan, was unleashed with the overthrow of the Iraqi Saddam Hussein regime and the subsequent 'Arab Springs'. Remember the disbelief when finally after decades of dictatorship the Egyptians promptly voted in a democratic election a government aligned to the Muslim Brotherhood. Another puritanical Sunni movement that some argue is also a Salafi strain.

It really isn't a battle between Islam and Christianity. Might appeal to the propensity of Christians for martyrdom, all three Abrahamic traditions have that in common, but it isn't. Though 'Christians' bent on a bit of martyrdom are doing their very best to make it so. And who knows, it's never hard to be included in the enemy list.

Hi there YUYUTSU & ONTHEBEACH...

Thinking back to a serious matter I was significantly involved in, concerning a Lebanese family who were involved in all manner of violent crime. The specifics of which are essentially unimportant other than their particular ethnicity and religious proclivities.

Ever since they'd arrived here as 'so called' refugees, (an apparent consequence of the war in Lebanon), their only activity was to continue with their criminality, in which they'd been hitherto engaged when they had lived in Beirut ? At that time, while I was in the process of conducting initial enquiries, I had occasion to speak with an senior officer of DEFAT concerning the bona fides and the arrival status of this family ? Apparently, DEFAT was well aware of their criminal antecedents while in Lebanon, but as refugees, they had miraculously, been accepted here ? Notwithstanding all male members, had extensive criminal records.

Therefore this troublesome group of home grown Lebanese criminals, became the problem of the poor ol' coppers, for ever and a day, since ! Upon my retirement, both the father and his two sons were all still serving long prison sentences.

For this reason, we MUST severely curb or at least restrict, our immigration now. Or at least, be far more selective and cautious as to who we allow to settle here. Is it not our sovereign right to choose who can relocate to our shores ? Or does the morally corrupt United Nations even override us in that issue too ?

For your further information, and this is FACT ! Currently in Long Bay Gaol...The two 'heaviest' groups there are; (i) The outlaw bikie groups; and (ii) The Lebanese (Islamic) criminal gangs, followed far behind by a couple of smaller Asian gangs (predominately drugs) with a few very frightened anglo's !

Yet we're told that Muslims only make up a small proportion of the Australian population ? Yet they represent the second most dangerous group in Australia's biggest gaol, go figure ?

Can the question be changed so it reads: "In a secular based country, can religion peacefully co-exist with society?" My view is yes.

For example I had one situation where a person told me they screamed "F off my property and never come back" (in Australia) - to a group of Jehovah's Witnesses coming towards their front door. They saw these people arriving and were very angry about it. Personally I was shocked and offended to why someone would want to do something so full on, and not simply ask the Jehovah's Witnesses members to leave, nicely.

90% of television I don't watch, because I don't like it, and the programming is terrible (in my view). However simplisticly blaming television or something converted to youtube or a vimeo is nothing more than someone putting forward an average case in court.

Currently where religion (or where other philosophies) fit into any secular country is a complex issue, that requires in depth thought, policy, discussion and debate.

Constance,
I realise my position is difficult to understand but I'm convinced that Asiatic and European societies are so different that they cannot co- exist in the same living space. Either the society becomes Asiatic in it's structure, with all it's hierarchies and it's peculiar concepts of honour and patronage or it remains wholly European with it's notions of aristocracy subordinated to socialism, the fusion cannot work because the two systems are always going to be in conflict.
You're right in identifying the soulless character of the West but what's happening is that in the absence of an authentic Eurocentric alternative to Californian culture the Europeans are looking toward Asia, to Putin and Islam for answers.

The other problem is that the way "anti Racists" in this country frame their narrative, the way they constantly attack White people and Christians gives rise to alienation and a grievance complex among the lower caste Whites, which has the potential to be an even bigger threat in the near future than any Muslim activism.
We really don't want to see millions of low caste Whites behaving like low caste Asians.

‘morning yvonne,

I’m impressed. You’ve done some good research. It’s nice that we have both backed away from our initial sniping and covered some useful ground, for my part I apologize for the my initial tone.

I’ve lived and worked in most of the ME countries since the early seventies. I still have good friends in Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Emirates. Sadly, the last of my former colleagues in Syria was killed in Aleppo in September 2012, along with his wife and two of his three children. My wife and I were in eastern Turkey and hoping to meet them but they never arrived. We didn’t know of their deaths until we returned to OZ. But the rest of us still maintain periodic contact.

I have no idea how the general public can come to terms with what is happening in the ME because the information we get is so distorted. I also have some difficulty with the constantly changing allegiances, in spite of my personal experience living there and my current contacts.

Living in the ME and doing business with Arabs is…., how should I put it, informative.

Enjoy the thread.

Spindoc

I come to this thread late and there is too much to read.
No, we cannot co-exist with Islam. Islam itself says so.
There are paragraphs in the Koran that urges Moslems not to have infidel friends.
Paragraphs that urge never to marry an infidel unless they convert,
(Shades of Irish Catholic Church), paragraphs that irge moslems to be intolerant of "kafir" practises.
and so on and on.

So called moderates can indeed be moderate until it comes to the crunch and then they
fall into line.
As to what is happening in Europe, just read about Germany, where the football
hooligans have had enough and they are uniting all football hooligans against the
Salifs. Just a sec I will find it.

http://tinyurl.com/oel4sal

It is all about the Salifis which were mentioned earlier in this thread.
They look to be come a more widely supported group.

How long do you think before this gets repeated in the UK & France and then here ?
Follow the page back to its front page and there is quite a bit more there.

The Melbourne-based demographer Bob Birrell, in a 2000 article on Inter-marriage in Australia:
[http://arrow.monash.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository/monash:63908]

makes the point that, while up to 90 % of Indigenous people in big cities were inter-marrying, only 6 % of Muslims were. Back then.

As we know, some Muslims want the entire world's population to be Muslim.

Those two factors provoke a question:

How ?

Just curious. People used to say that I was a curious lad. Weird, some reckoned. Plain dumb-@rse crazy, other cruel people said. Dropped on my head when I was a baby, my grandma claimed.

Joe

Bazz one of the kids in that photo is wearing and Anti Fascist Action hoodie so that's probably a shot of the Leftist counter protest.
The real protestors were mostly neo Fascists and there weren't 5000 of them, the words "neo nazi" generate lots of mouse clicks.
http://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/195621/Berserker-3.jpg
That Cologne rally has been beaten up to be far bigger and more organised than it was but it's the type of thing I was talking about in my earlier posts,

Cont:
What many are now starting to recognise is that we are in an episode of a war that has
been waged for 1400 years.
Right from the very beginning Islam has attacked its neighbours, especially the Jews.
As they surged out of Arabia they waged war on the locals enforcing conversion to Islam.
Eventually they conquered Israel and Jerusalem, killing and oppressing the Christians and Jews.
It was that invasion that led to the crusades.
The Koran tells them that land once conquered by moslims remains moslem land forever.
From that you can see where our current Arab/Israeli troubles originate.

The moslems surged out of the Middle East into Persia and India and laid the foundations
of Indian/Pakistan wars. They also took over Egypt and most of Nth Africa and then
into Spain. Likewise at a later time they had another go at Europe but were stopped
by the Austrians and Poles.

They now probably have realised our main weakness, we are too politically correct to
stop them migrating into Europe and taking over by means of birthrate.
The next phase of this ongoing war will be fought on the streets of Europe, Canada,
the USA and Australia. Well not will be, it is being fought now.

'. Though 'Christians' bent on a bit of martyrdom are doing their very best to make it so '

I am sure your inference to those girls being packed raped, those who have lost their heads in Syria and Iraq is amusing Yvonne. Your remarks are nothing short of disgusting but not surprising from someone taking the morally superior line.

It's easily forgotten that the Muslims in Spain promoted multiculturalism - they were happy to take (non-Muslim) slaves from sub-Saharan Africa, from the Balkans and the Baltic and from Ireland.

The fifty thousand or so slaves - multicultural - provided the bulk of the productive workforce in the remnants of late-Islamic Spain, after 1000-1100 AD.

Women were shipped and traded from all parts of the Islamic world (and its conquered environs) to and from Spain through the markets in Egypt and Asia Minor and places like Timbuktu and Ashkhabad.

It must have been a good time for a Muslim to be alive.

Joe

Thank you, Constance,

I also loved Father Samir's analysis.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I was under the impression that Australia carries character checks on all immigrants. If DEFAT knew about this family's criminality in Lebanon, but still allowed them in, then they betrayed their office of protecting Australians from crime.

This family should not have been accepted as refugees for at least two reasons: because their criminal activity would harm Australians; and because criminals are not refugees but perpetrators and are bound to have their karma bounce back at them sooner or later.

Even if accepted on humanitarian grounds, they should not have received Australian permanent residence or citizenship.

The most sensible thing to do now is to send them back to Lebanon, rather than keep feeding them in prison.

If Lebanese in general are statistically more suspected of crime, then there is nothing wrong with not granting them permanent residence until and unless they prove themselves benign.

As for the united nations, it's a criminal organisation and it's shameful that Australia still has anything to do with them, including that stupid seat on the security-council.

The following is a link given by the Australian
Institute of Criminology which although is quite
a long report is worth a read because it shows
just some of the complexities involved in this subject:

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/E/1/E/E1E2943C-1FB7-40D6-B85E-DFB354BE751Aethnic.pdf

My apologies.

I gave you the wrong link.

I'm having computer problems.

Here's the link again:

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/E/1/E/%7BE1E2943C-1FB7-40D6-B85E-DFB354BE751A%7Dethnic.pdf

Dearest Foxy,

I'm not sure what that demonstrated. Perhaps there are no cases in Australia of honor killings, or genital mutilations, or marrying fourteen-year-olds, or perhaps the 'law' doesn't know quite how to deal with such 'incidents', if they actually ARE happening.

Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims are as intelligent as anybody else, as capable of positive feelings and regarding their fellow-citizens as brothers. Maybe not all. Cultures and cultural practices vary in their support for women's rights, for the concept of human equality for all, no matter what group others are embedded in.

But there are nasty people in the world, Foxy - I don't really like to break the news to you: some people behead other people, some people enslave the women of other groups, and do unmentionable things to them as well beforehand. In some parts of the world, people are not as nice as you, or as you and I would like them to be.

And they may sometimes want to extend those awful practices to other parts of the world, even including here, in your city and mine. They may advise young idiots to do terrible things to random strangers, all supposedly in some ghastly religious cause.

Sorry, Foxy, but that's how the nasty, real world is. Like you, I wish such wickedness didn't happen, but it does. In this past week, hundreds of innocent people have been blown to bits in the Punjab, Afghanistan, Baghdad and other Iraqi cities, Nigeria, maybe Yemen. Coincidentally, all in pretty much the same cause. So terrible. So inconvenient.

Love,

Joe

Hi (again) YUYUTSU...

In the ideal world you'd be perfectly correct. And it is the function of DEFAT to examine much of the information furnished by these potential applicants for refugee status. However, given the clamour and tumult of what was going on over there, I think the Australian government wanted to be seen (by the world) to be overtly assisting many of these Lebanese refugees to escape the war ?

To be sure, a noble act, nevertheless in their haste, much of the more meticulous, more probing enquiries into their circumstances, their backgrounds and character, was found to be substantially wanting, with many not even remotely deserving of 'any' refugee status ? That's not to suggest that many proved to be legitimate refugees, and became good citizens once they settled and established themselves.

It's my view that I don't believe DEFAT were adequately trained or sufficiently equipped to 'tease out' many of the more important background factors in order to establish a true character summation ? In reality, we were importing a whole new class of criminal into our country, in order to exploit our collective naivety ? And frankly, we (the Oz coppers) were wilfully unprepared to deal with such a new and wholly strong criminal element, whereas we're confronted with a very different religion, that played such a vital roll in their overall criminality. This is only my opinion you understand YUYUTSU ? Still if you were to query any former detective of that era, I'm positive he'd agree with my assessment absolutely.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Personally, I take the subject of this discussion
very seriously. And because the subject of crime
was brought up - I thought that a report from the
Australian Institute of Criminology addressing
the subject of ethnicity and crime in this country
could prove educational and useful in broading this
discussion.

BTW: - Thank You for your kind words - I am aware of
the problems that we face globally from terrorists.

Hi folks, as an aside, someone mentioned the AIC (the Australian Institute of Criminology) a worthy organisation, comprising of suits and dresses, who produce a series of numbers, both vertically and horizontally. Beautiful charts, attractive reports, nice people if one has a need to speak with them...still they've never caught a crook, nor assisted in catching a crook ? But produce a series of reports Annual and otherwise wow, they're brilliant ! Imagine the huge benefit to be gained for investigating detectives, if the funds that are annually allocated to the AIC are redirected to any of the State Police Force's CIB'S, those funds would assist us marvellously !

Dear o sung wu,

Without the AIC, the government nor police services around the country, would not know where to direct any additional funds (or the funds they already receive) as effectively as they could otherwise. The funding provided to the AIC would largely be squandered if given directly to police institutions as they would not have the data available to direct their efforts as effectively as they can now that they do have such data available to them.

Policing is about more than just catching bad guys now. It is largely because of the AIC (along with policing scholars in general) that police services around the country are more effective than they’ve ever been before, and now enjoy unprecedented levels of legitimacy and public satisfaction. Crime rates in general are lower than they’ve ever been before, and that’s partly due to a police service that is more educated and professional than it’s ever been before.

If you think the relatively small amount of money directed towards the AIC could be better spent on the police services, then you have no idea of just how ever-changing the technological challenges that police face nowadays are. Gone is the era of community policing (community and preventative policing are simply ingrained now and will never leave due to their phenomenal success); we have now entered an era known as "The era of uncertainty"; an era we were propelled into by 9/11.

Terrorism is now challenging police forces like never before, and catching the odd crook or two extra, here and there, just ain't gonna cut it these days, I'm afraid. In fact, less crooks would be caught if we were to revert back to the days of traditional policing; police institutions would lose respect, legitimacy, their ability to prevent crime and keep up with technology. Times have changed too much for traditional policing and technology has rendered it obsolete.

@Jay Of Melbourne you are full of lies...

"Indonesia is one of the most egregious modern examples of the violence inherent in Islam, about a million people were murdered by religious extremists in the 1960's, tens of thousands in East Timor and West Papua and nobody really knows how many died in Aceh and Kalimantan"

that is totally wrong!.. the 60's massacre was communist purge backed by CIA! it was never about religion!, so does East Timor! it was also about communist and CIA with the help of Australia!.. don't ever think you can wash your hands easily!.. and about Aceh, you are really ignorant!, Aceh is the province with the highest percentage of muslim in Indonesia, nearing 100%, there has never been any massacre of Christians in Aceh, Aceh war is pure rebellion, Aceh wanted to apply sharia law, but the Indonesian secular central government does not allow it, so they asked for independence, that's why they rebelled and in 2005 there was a peace agreement between Aceh rebel (GAM) and Indonesian government with one of the conditions is a special autonomy for Aceh which includes applying the Islamic sharia law in Aceh, and today Aceh is the only province in Indonesia that enforces sharia law.. and don't forget that Suharto was a US's puppet!..

I do not think that the police need an academic report to tell them who the criminals are !
Where they are spending their time tells them that. The activity of the criminals tells
them more than any report.
Reading the list of contributors to that report tells you much.
Were any of them ever a working copper ?

Mansjunior,
So you're another White supremacist eh?
Of course the all powerful CIA causes all the trouble in the world and Muhhamadiya and Nahdlatul Ulama were just a bunch of idiots sitting in the dirt picking their noses waiting for Whitey to tell them what to do were they?
The TNI "green lighted" the massacres and provided support for the Islamic militiamen who were already in conflict with PKI.
It's the same scenario which occurred in Ukraine in the 1940's, the SS Einsatzgruppen facilitated the massacres of thousands of Jews and other people who were on the nationalist/anti communist groups hit lists, they provided security, transport and intelligence for the groups who were rounding up undesirables and they also took part in the killings.

Bazz,

It's not just about knowing where the crooks are and my post should have made that abundantly clear. Unlike the old days of traditional policing, crime prevention is and important part of policing, too, for starters. And yes, many policing scholars used to be cops themselves.

Here's another "forgotten" episode from Indonesia's very recent past:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/muslim-mobs-hunt-christians-on-resort-island-of-lombok-727306.html
See time stopped on 9/11/2001, "everything changed" right? No it didn't, "everything" has been this way in Indonesia for 900 years, majority Muslim societies are never peaceful, they simply don't tolerate "multiculturalism" or ethnic diversity.

This is an article taken from
The Age newspaper written by an Australian
Muslim that suggests things that the Muslim
Communities can do in this country
to help towards easing the dreadful situation
that is affecting us all. Working together
and finding a common ground may well be the
answer towards solving some of the complex problems.

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/my-muslim-religion-has-problems-that-need-fixing-20140828-109ibb.html

Jay of Melbourne>>, majority Muslim societies are never peaceful, they simply don't tolerate "multiculturalism" or ethnic diversity.

That is it in a nutshell.......

Jay the other issue with Muslims is sectarian violence. The Christian reformation was about diversity and acceptance, and while a truly ecumenical environment is only recent history the Christian reformation did stop Rome from ongoing global religious wars with the Protestants.

Islam needs Reformation before it will accept infidels. My issue is we have an over abundance of “moderate Muslims” of both sects but they seem content to let the radicals call the agenda....harks back to my thread on “is there such a thing as the moderate Muslim.”

mansjunior,

Aceh? There are Christians there. I recall the beheadings of some young Christian girls there.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Terrorist-involved-in-the-beheading-of-three-Christian-female-students-killed-in-Aceh-18124.html

When people speak of the Lebanese issue, you really mean Muslim Lebanese. Please do not sully the Christian Lebanese. Christian Lebanese refugees not long after arrival in Australia in the actually protested in the streets, at least in Sydney anyway, trying to tell the Australian government to stop them from granting refugee status to Lebanese Muslims. That is who they were escaping from in the first place. There had been campaigning to politicians about it. And Malcolm Fraser would not listen to them. He is still poncing about like the ridiculous fool that he is.

Muslim Lebanese Australians have calledLebanese Christians Uncle Toms. They have no respect at all for Non Muslims.

Beirut was once the Paris of the Middle East. They unfortunately too were soft on granting too many refugee visas to Palestinians who then eventually entered parliament. Now Muslims are the majority in Lebanon. Muslims in Lebanon I am told do not even wear hijabs or niqabs. In fact it is apparently hard to see the difference between Christians and Muslims there apart from the geographical areas where Muslim areas are filthy. I am told.

Why are Lebanese Muslims wearing their death cult uniforms in the West?

Foxy,

You are too institutionalised. As William F Buckley once said (of whom you actually quoted once in a post):

“I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University.”
William F. Buckley, Jr.

“Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security.”
William F. Buckley, Jr.

at then end of the day if you ask 95% plus of Muslims their opinions of the Jews you will know that their is little hope of co existing in peace. Much much blood will be shed but thankfully it has not caught the God of Israel by surprise. Secularist will continue to stick their heads in the sand thinking they are smart enough to ignore the God factor. The reason they stick their heads in the sand because ultimately they know they are part of the problem and have no answers. Ultimately peace can only ever come from the Prince of Peace and that certainly ain't Obama or Abbott.

Thanks, Yuyutsu,

I am glad someone is reading it.

Foxy.
I read the article you linked to in your last post and if muslims really want to be part of our society there should be more such expressions.

There should be more like him and less like the critical audience that were on Q and A last week. I want to hear muslims saying things like 'let the radicals go to fight overseas and then cancel their passports, we do not want them back here' I want to hear their leaders condemn IS and its atrocities. I want to hear the moderates expose the radicals, so they can be charged.

Sadly, I may just be wishful thinking.

@Jay Of Melbourne LOL you are talking BS...

You obviously don't know the history, it was a cold war between the west block and east block, Indonesia is still in a neutral position at the time(but a little more inclined toward the west), but the presence of Indonesian Communist Party (the largest communist party outside China and the Soviet Union) make America a little nervous, so they initiated to eliminate this party of Indonesian politics!.

here is an article about this..

https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/35901

INDONESIA: How the West backed the massacre of a million people

By 1965, the PKI had three million members and was said to be the largest Communist party in the world outside of the Soviet Union and China. In addition to its large membership, about 15 million people had indirect connections to the party through their membership of peasant associations, labour unions and other social movement organisations led by PKI members. It was, according to a September 1, 1965, US National Intelligence Estimate, "by far the best organized and most dynamic entity in Indonesia".

and about the Aceh girls, for your information...

mas·sa·cre

noun
noun: massacre; plural noun: massacres

1.
an indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of people.

verb
verb: massacre; 3rd person present: massacres; past tense: massacred; past participle: massacred; gerund or present participle: massacring

1.
deliberately and violently kill (a large number of people).

side note: if you read the news please not just the headlines.

Msnsjunior, selamat siang,

The murder of three girls, merely on the grounds that they are Christian, sounds something like a massacre to me :)

One feature of a 'massacre' might be that the victims and the murderers do not know each other, their relationship, such as it may be, is NOT a personal one. As well, relevant characteristics of victim and murderer clearly separate them - one may not so easily speak of a 'massacre' of three Muslim girls by Muslim men, or three Christian girls by Christian men, that (if it occurred) would be straight-out murder - the religion or ethnicity in those cases would not be relevant.

An 'assassination' has similar features of differentiation and lack of personal familiarity - perhaps a relatively small 'massacre' could be more appropriately called an 'assassination'.

So these three girls were, in that sense, assassinated, by men who they didn't know, from another religious group. Armed men butchering three defenseless young girls - that could be another way to describe what seems to have happened.

Either way, a mark of a brutal, pitiless and uncivilized society.

Joe

AJ Philips you wouldn't perhaps be an academic now would you?

I don't suppose you would have noticed from your lofty perch, that so many of the best & brightest young cops, with 6 to 10 year experience are getting out.

Any one with half a brain would have to, when some silly little girl, with a degree in criminology, who has never been within a hundred meters of any criminal, is promoted over them, & starts demanding their policing THEORY, as taught in some ivory tower be applied.

Community policing, when said silly little girls are telling experienced cops to "go easy with the Muslims, we don't want to stir them up."

Community policing in the areas which are now no go areas for cops & the general population alike. Pull the other one mate.

God I wish you people had to live with the results of your grandiose theories, out with the real people, rather than in some nice leafy green enclave by a university.

Dear Constance,

I've been called a lot of things in my life -
but being accused of being "institutionalised,"
is a new one. I'm not sure what exactly you mean
by that - because I'm not actually associated
with any "institution." Unless being married
qualifies.

Anyway, I shall take it as a compliment.
Which I'm sure is the way you intended it to be.

And I am familiar with William F. Buckley Jr's
quotes. We lived and worked in the US for over
ten years.
I admired Buckley's sense of humour and wit.

Dear Banjo,

I'm pleased that you see the value of the link
I cited recently. And yes, indeed, it would be
admirable if more Muslims got involved in a more
positive way in this country to give people
a different picture to the distortion that terrorists
like ISIS create, and use, and manipulate, to their own
advantage.

Yuyutsu,

"As for the united nations, it's a criminal organisation and it's shameful that Australia still has anything to do with them, including that stupid seat on the security-council."

In terms of what? Terrorists? Government inaction on important international policy? Lack of Australian Government action in relation to the Ebola virus? War and violence?

Too many people, particularly in well off western countries now seem to be singling out one religion (or anything seen to be connected with it). Why? Because its the flavor of the month. Governments get points from it.

It's an on-going cycle with no real solution.

I did read the link from Constance, and a lot of it was verging on ridiculous - as many in the Australian society at present, take a line (and that includes myself), that we are 100% perfect, along with family and relatives and "we" have perfect, high moral values - and have never done anything wrong.

However certain other groups of people (let's say, those people called "Muslims" are a hideous group of citizens living in Australia that "we" cannot tolerate.

It's a vague reasoning however. It's like saying I should be responsible for the actions of people who commit and are arrested (and later found guilty) for range of serious crimes that occur across Australia daily. Would people be happy with that, if that principle was applied to them?

Philosophically and practically - we really to need get our brains back in order - to get better policies and better solutions in place. As I said before, we can't go overboard policy wise based on youtube screenings or vimeos.

Interesting logic, Nathan. A bit psychotic, but there you go.

Let's just run through a few facets of the non-problem, as you may see it:

* hundreds of schoolgirls kidnapped in Nigeria, to be either married off and/or enslaved.

* Car bombs and suicide bombers this week in: the Punjab, Kabul, Baghdad, and perhaps Yemen.

* Massacres in the past couple of months: of Yazidis, Shabaks, Christians, Kurds and non-compliant Sunnis in Iraq, along with the enslavement of women and the beheading of children;

* Running-down of Jews in Jerusalem.

* Sundry atrocities in Syria, Somalia, Libya and Keya overv the past couple of months.

* not least by any means, the killing and beheading of three young girls in Aceh.

I wonder, is there a common thread n all of these atrocities ? Hmmmmmm ....... what could it be ?

It can't be Muslims in toto, because most Muslim are a peaceful people - after all, Islam is a religion of peace.

Could it be a group within Islam itself ? Gosh, is that a possibility ?

If so, then it would be up to the 'more peaceful Muslims' to take steps, ideologically and even physically, to root them out, expose them and ultimately destroy them. Nobody else has the remotest obligation - this is ultimately an internal Muslim war, only 'peaceful' Muslims can cut out this cancer (sorry, Foxy). Of course, it may be so metastatic, so fundamental to Islam, that removal could kill the patient.

As an atheist, I am appropriately concerned about that.

What puzzles me is the apologetics of some on the Left for the most vile and reactionary Right-wing forces in the world today, and for a long time. Baffling.

Joe

Good afternoon to you AJPHILLIPS...

Thank you for drawing my attention to the vast expertise of the AIC, and of course I shall defer to your far greater knowledge of policing, per se. Though I'm not quite sure what is meant by a 'policing scholar' ?

Hello there BAZZ...

In my own naïve and ingenuous way, I would have to agree with your summation, about policing practices and intelligence gathering methodology, as evidenced by the immense 'product' continually emerging from both, the BCI and the ABCI.

The problem as I see it, there are insufficient resources available in order for detectives to verify each item of intel. in an attempt to juxtapose with other known, substantiated facts ? Notwithstanding each item acquired is appraised, carefully collated and then disseminated to every pro-active patrol within their area command. I don't believe any working detective wouldn't give his left....'finger?' to have the necessary resources, to fully interdict crime within his purview ?

One of the greatest 'weapons', if you like, was the old Consorting Squad. It (very effectively) prevented criminals from hanging out and assembling together, usually for the purpose of plotting and scheming further criminal activities. Persons caught 'consorting' would be immediately locked-up and placed before the local SM at the earliest opportunity. Our political masters saw fit to repeal the Act and disbanded the squads.

This practice would've been of great benefit today, in these times of Islamic terrorism. Still, it was asserted by our erudite academics, this particular legislation manifestly interfered with, and unfairly constrained, their human rights, by restricting their 'right' to mix with whomever they choose ?

Of course BAZZ, our revered academic scholars are more able to foresee the deleterious effects the Consorting Act had, on the sensitive feelings of our emotionally damaged criminal element, then the less 'scholarly' detectives ?

Foxy,
Yes it is a pity more muslims don't publicly support what Glenn Mohammed stated in his article in the 'Age'.

Unfortunately I suspect the reason being for lack of support is :- (a) They do not agree with him. or (b) They are fearful of being victimized by other muslims if they do support him.

Either way the situation is that few other muslims do not publicly support Glenn Mohammed. We are left with the opinion that most muslims support the radicals, or accept their actions.

I should know better than to bother responding to anything NathanJ has to say but its hard to let his ridiculous conclusions go.

>>Too many people, particularly in well off western countries now seem to be singling out one religion (or anything seen to be connected with it). Why? Because its the flavor of the month. Governments get points from it.<<

Yes Nathan, the only reason people are expressing a concern about all of the terrorist attacks, the uncivilised brutal behaviour of ISIS, and worry over young Australian Muslims going overseas to join ISIS is because its the flavour of the month. Can you explain (or do you even know) what you mean by 'Governments getting points from it?'

"Philosophically and practically - we really to need get our brains back in order"... start with yourself!

Dear Banjo,

I don't think that we can make assumptions about
what "most Muslims," support because according to
surveys and stats - its only a small minority of
the Australian Muslim population
(judging from the given numbers) that are going overseas
to fight with the terrorists.

That is patently not true Foxy.

Just ask the police who have to deal with them. When my son was bashed by those 4 Muslim Leb thugs, he was told by the attending cops not to expect them to be able to do anything about it.

They said the total wall of protective silence in Muslim communities, even when it is their own being hurt by the thugs, make them almost impossible to police. Effectively they already have their own fiefdoms controlled by them, not us.

When asked about tracing the car they said the number when checked, was for a Ford, not a Holden, usual for many of these people, so no help.

Time to drop the rose coloured glasses little lady, your sympathy is entirely wasted.

Ah yes Sung Wu I agree.
How about the QLD act on Bikies.
How about a version for moslems ?

Foxy,
You are now changing the goal posts. I suggest you read the article you linked to again.

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/my-muslim-religion-has-problems-that-need-fixing-20140828-109ibb.html

Glenn Mohammed was referring to muslims not admitting that Islam has serious problems. Muslims are quick to claim to be victims of government laws but fail to admit to large problems within Islam.

The only conclusion that non muslims can get from this is that most muslims either condone radical action or just accept it. No wonder Islam in general is being blamed for terrorism and anti social conduct.

Dear Hasbeen,

I don't have any sympathy for any criminals, thugs,
terrorists, fundamentalists, or any extremists,
no matter of what persuasion. And you should by
now know that. I'm sorry what happened to your
son as a result of thugs. My nephew was
also attacked in Lismore, when he came to the
aid of a girl student who was being harassed
by several thugs. My nephew was beaten so badly
that he ended up in a coma in hospital with the
end result - he had a plate put into his head -
and he's never been the same since.

Thugs will be thugs - and of course their behaviour
should not be tolerated. These thugs were not caught.
Or punished.
They can attack again - who knows. And, by the way -
they were young Aussie kids - not of the Muslim
faith. Many young people do bad things - and we need to
look at the causes of their behaviour - not blame
entire groups of people for the actions of these
few trouble makers in our midst.

Dear Banjo,

I am not shifting the goal posts.

On the contrary. The author makes it
quite clear when he writes:

"Yes, we are under attack - our faith is
under attack. Our faith is being eaten up from within by
fundamentalist elements around the world who twist it
(the religion) to suit their political agendas and
interpret it to make their case. To them its nothing
but a tool to control people. They justify their
actions through (their version) of our faith."

So of course there are problems with the
fundamentalists - and as the author
clearly states - Muslims need to denouce their barbaric
behaviour.

Perhaps its you who needs to re-read the link.
I've done it several times and fully understand the
points being made. Apparently you don't.

Did you just miss my point Foxy, or was it intentional.

I was pointing out these people ALL protect their own. They will not help with any effort to catch any criminal in their midst. There are no "good" law abiding Muslims. When the chips are down, they are right, & we are wrong. In this way they are all guilty, & always will be.

Exactly the same occurs with rapists or any illegal activity. They will not do anything to convict, or help find the criminal amongst them, & the same goes for terrorists.

I know you don't want to believe this, but it is fact.

Foxy,
You are putting a different slant on the article, seems you missed these bits

Quote 1. The Muslim community is quick to stand up and use its democratic right to protest against being singled out. It feels under attack by the government. Maybe it is, maybe it is not, but the government is able to explain and justify the proposed legislation.

2 When will Muslims stand up and accept that yes we have problems within our faith. Maybe a few more problems than other faiths, but sure, we have problems. They don't just affect us as Muslims, they affect our friends, their families and our neighbours. They affect a society that welcomes us here, treats us as equals and gives us the opportunity to live a decent and dignified life. Democratic Australia gives us a voice and tries its best not to judge us.

3 Muslims need to be able to discuss these issues openly and denounce barbaric behaviour. Instead, we choose to remain silent and then criticise a government that tries to make Australia safer. We use democratic values such as the right to equality, to claim the existence of discrimination, racism and Islamophobia. end quote

That clearly is about muslims not acknowledging Islam has problems and that is the problem JM is referring to. Reread the article, it is not about how many go overseas to fight. Muslims will not compromise on anything, so will not agree there are problems and work to remedy them.

Dearest Foxy,

From my own limited experience of near-daily bus travel, and what I hear and read, I don't see anybody picking on any particular community, or individuals from any community, or anybody from the un-named community seeming to be uneasy in the presence of non-un-named others.

Maybe everybody on my bus route has other major preoccupations, but nobody seems worried or harassed or whatever towards the un-named group members, quite the reverse. On the streets, nobody seems anything but casual and relaxed. On the bus, men get up for Muslim women, people smile at each other. It's a friendly bus :)

What goes on behind people's eyes I don't know but outwardly (and perhaps inwardly too) all is calm, nobody is getting harassed - it just seems to be not in anybody's consciousness.

I hope that doesn't change. Maybe here in Adelaide, Muslims come from such a huge variety of countries and situations, Hazaras, Sudanese, Indonesians, Indians, Somalis, Iranians, Bosnians, Kazakhs, people from all over the place, from different Muslim traditions, each following a sort of 'live and let live' policy towards people from other traditions and towards non-Muslims. Sounds fair enough. Long may it continue.

Love,

Joe

mansjunior,
What absolute lies. My wife and others worked to raise funds for Christians in Indonesia to support members of families whose Christian husbands were murdered by Muslim terrorists and their wives and daughters taken captive. Those that fled had to be accommodated because their houses were burned to the ground. It was estimated then that around 6,000 persons were slaughtered in Arche and Ambon. Indonesia has not had an emotionally stable culture. The new President is a brighter star on the scene for democracy.

mansjunior, said, "there has never been any massacre of Christians in Aceh". Total lies.

Hi there HASBEEN & BANJO...

I don't believe for a moment, anybody would 'hand on heart' declare, there are no decent, law abiding Muslims out there in the broader community, of course there are ? The trouble being, many of these moderate Muslims exist under the more ominous influence of their usually dominate partner or male family member. Often they're too intimidated or scared to speak out, or react to the horrifying behaviour of other more radical Muslim adherents !

There are some police members who are too wary, too cautious even, to confront many of these Muslim 'hard heads'. Mainly because of their numbers, and the very aggressive posture they adopt, almost challenging police to a physical confrontation ? And when you rely on a couple of younger coppers, this type of pugnacious encounter, tends to rattle them completely, even though they've been taught how to react and accommodate this type of truculent conduct ?

Notwithstanding how experienced a police member may be, it's never easy to deal with this type of provocative behaviour, particularly when they're pissed and/or under the influence of drugs ? When all you get for your trouble, is a mouthful of foul derision and mockery, more often when you're within the presence and hearing of the public !

There's no doubt, a more scholarly approach, may be better able to handle such encounters with greater ease and aplomb and together with considerable composure. But the ordinary copper with his relatively low IQ, and lack of education, is incapable to navigate themselves around such crisis, unlike our more academic and scholarly police members ? Still we must but, try !

So HASBEEN, what chance did your poor unfortunate son have, when he was cowardly battered by four foul, feral Lebanese maggots and the accompanying detritus ? Still, perhaps an academic or scientific aphorism, may've worked far more satisfactorily at that point in time ?

Josephus
Mansjunior is relying on Greenleft weekly and it's Marxist-Leninist "post colonial theory", Socialist Alliance are a cult, you can't expect them to tell the truth because they are too invested in their "We was robbed!" conspiracy theories.
How the Political Left Lost its Way and Wandered into the Muslim Snakepit: The Unlearned Lessons of the Indonesian Holocaust of 1965
http://www.dogmaticslumbers.com/2013/08/13/how-the-political-left-lost-its-way-and-wandered-into-the-muslim-snakepit-the-unlearned-lessons-of-the-indonesian-holocaust-of-1965/

What happened to all the Afghan Communists?
http://blogs.afp.com/english/public/.000_APP2001092599027_m.jpg
Oh, and the Iranian Left wingers?
http://cpgb.org.uk/assets/images/online_only/IRAN_EXECUTIONS-440px.jpg
Coincidence? I think not.

Hasbeen ,

No, I’m not an academic, but I’ve studied policing and have briefly worked with police in my studies.

Actually, the best and brightest already have a university, and THEY are the one’s dropping out (despite their promotions) because they sometimes get bored with the mundane tasks of policing. In general, the older the cop, the lower the I.Q. and research indicates that it usually boils down to boredom, not lack of promotion.

<<Any one with half a brain would have to, when some silly little girl, with a degree in criminology, who has never been within a hundred meters of any criminal, is promoted over them, & starts demanding their policing THEORY, as taught in some ivory tower be applied.>>

What utter nonsense.

Degree or no degree, anyone afforded a promotion has been a cop long enough to have seen worse than you’ve probably ever seen in your life. There are good reasons why those who are highly qualified are sometimes promoted over those with no tertiary qualifications. Tertiary-educated police have better problem-solving abilities, are more innovative, more flexibility, have higher emotional and social intelligence, are less authoritarian (which improves their legitimacy and public satisfaction levels), are more flexible in their belief system, more culturally and socially aware, more professional, more ethical, have a higher service standard and receive more positive job performance evaluations from their supervisors, and cope better with the demands of leadership roles.

Hundreds of studies around the world support this.

<<Community policing, when said silly little girls are telling experienced cops to "go easy with the Muslims...">>

Obviously you haven’t a clue what community policing is. What sense is there is wasting tax payers’ dollars in having police continuously attend the same problem over and over when community policing methods can prevent it from happening in the first place?

A cousin of mine, whom I caught up with tonight, is a detective at Redcliffe. I showed him your comment and he had a good chuckle at it. You have no idea of what you’re talking about. Absolutely no idea.

A J Phillips (to another poster), "A cousin of mine, whom I caught up with tonight, is a detective at Redcliffe. I showed him your comment and he had a good chuckle at it. You have no idea of what you’re talking about. Absolutely no idea."

Is he a real detective or playing dress-up? Anyone who has ventured into Redcliffe for an overnight stay and arisen to find their car lightened considerably (if still there), wheels and bits gone, would be most surprised at the claimed community policing solution of the violence and crime there.

Take QRail to the Bay after hours? You ARE kidding, right?

For years the news reports have alleged 'Islander' (migrant 'tourism' via NZ?) problems in particular. The exasperated public could list the housing commission tenancies and the private rentals with interstate owners (and unscrupulous REAs churning tenants through).

Are they all now employed and productive members of society, or does the problem remain with other cultural problems added? Aren't frustrated authorities relying on initiatives such as crushing hoons' cars and anti-outlawbikie gang laws in the last ditch effort to hold the thin blue line against crime?

I think some religions don't co-exist well within themselves.

I know of some devout Baptists that hate each other more than they dislike people from competing religions.

There are about 40,000 recorded denominations within Christianity itself and of those the major ones differ significantly between themselves on important matters.

Likewise, there is tension and extreme variation within Judaeism and the Sunni/Shi'ite friction is self-evident.

That doesn't leave much scope for tolerance generally for any sectarian societies.

Thank you onthebeach,

Another one who doesn't understand what community policing is and/or the impact that it's had. Not to mention problem-oriented policing, crime hot-spotting, crime partnerships and situational crime prevention measures compared to the relative failure of the traditional policing methods of rapid response, reactive arrests, preventative patrols and increasing police numbers.

No, suddenly a crime problem somewhere means that nothing is working, and the increased punitiveness of society and 1000% increase in the reporting of crime by the media nowadays means that the lower crime rates of today are worse than they used to be when people turned a blind eye to much of it.

There is no single greater example of the failure of traditional policing than the findings of the Fitzgerald report.

Community policing should not be soft on crime. However, as shown by the Rotherham experience in the UK, where the political idealism of national government -the federal government in our case- puts migrant intakes, multiculturalism and 'diversity' ahead of the interests, quality of life and wellbeing of its own citizens, police are expected to cope with the mess of insolvable problems from importing cultures, traditions, world views and political systems that are toxic and diametrically opposed to our own (and the offenders will NOT change).

For decades, successive federal governments have boasted of setting new annual records for migrant intakes and on top of that there have been the recent influxes of economic migrants. The sheer numbers alone have limited the effectiveness of claimed migrant screening, which in any case would admit almost anyone if there wasn't a public outcry and iron-clad court evidence of serious criminality. However that has not prevented senior Mafia members from being admitted for example, and to the outspoken exasperation of Italian authorities.

I wouldn't put the Rotherham outrage down to political idealism so much as outright corruption, the people in charge not only refused to do their duty for purely ideological reasons they also perverted the course of justice, intimidated witnesses and allegedly removed foster children from the home of people they suspected of being UKIP supporters.
Rotherham and the Progressive Narrative
http://therightstuff.biz/2014/09/06/rotherham-and-the-progressive-narrative/

Uncomfortable truth about political corruption,

<Denis MacShane: I was too much of a 'liberal leftie' and should have done more to investigate child abuse

Denis MacShane, the former Labour MP for Rotherham, has admitted that as a “Guardian reading liberal leftie” he shied away from the issue of the oppression of women in the Muslim community.
Mr MacShane, who resigned in 2012 over an expenses fraud for which he was later jailed, insisted no-one came to him with child abuse allegations during his 18 years in Parliament, but admitted he should have “burrowed into” the issue.
He told the BBC: "I think there was a culture of not wanting to rock the multicultural community boat if I may put it like that.”
Admitting he had been guilty of doing too little, he said he had been aware of the problem of cousin marriage and “the oppression of women within bits of the Muslim community in Britain” but: “Perhaps yes, as a true Guardian reader, and liberal leftie, I suppose I didn’t want to raise that too hard.”>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059643/Denis-MacShane-I-was-too-much-of-a-liberal-leftie-and-should-have-done-more-to-investigate-child-abuse.html

ConservativeHippie,

You once again, take on the "we are perfect" approach. Like Yuyutsu did, will then very easily target the United Nations or ignore other religious, philosophical groups or governments worldwide and what they are doing. Example:

1. Church of Scientology, raised by South Australian Senator Nick Xenophon: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2009/11/18/xenophon-calls-probe-scientology

"Too many people, particularly in well off western countries now seem to be singling out one religion (or anything seen to be connected with it). Why? Because its the flavor of the month. Governments get points from it"

Answer: Governments do this through simplistic actions, seen on television, or a one line response from a party in opposition and this makes a few people feel better. Wow. This factor has existed in politics for both Labor and Liberal parties and also overseas - and it's increasing. It's called spin doctoring.

"An authoritative U.S. study of terrorist attacks after the invasion in 2003 contradicts the repeated denials of George Bush and Tony Blair that the war is not to blame for an upsurge in fundamentalist violence worldwide. The research is said to be the first to attempt to measure the "Iraq effect" on global terrorism.

The number killed in jihadist attacks worldwide has risen dramatically since the Iraq war began in 2003. The study compared the period between 11 September 2001 and the invasion of Iraq with the period since the invasion. The count -- excluding the Arab-Israel conflict -- shows the number of deaths due to terrorism rose from 729 to 5,420. As well as strikes in Europe, attacks have also increased in Chechnya and Kashmir since the invasion."

http://www.alternet.org/story/48620/the_war_on_terror_is_the_leading_cause_of_terrorism

This mix of "we are perfect" in the western world (and only target one element of society) and ignore the actions of others, or other issues is clearly an on-going cycle with no real solution to the problems facing the planet.

Hi Nathan,

Any chance that you could back-date your statement that "The number killed in jihadist attacks worldwide has risen dramatically since the Iraq war began in 2003" to 9th September 2001 ?

Although that does change the locus of culpability somewhat ":)

Joe

NathanJ the number of people killed in Jihadist attacks his increased dramatically since about 632 AD, we've been in a relatively quiet period since the late 1980's.
If you recall, until the 1980's the Arab resistance to Zionism and the Atlanticist imperialism had a distinctively Socialist character, groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda only became prominent in the 80's and 90's.

Okay. My experience of recently moving to a different suburb in Sydney where an Islamic school is nearby.

At supermarket, see Muslim in hijab parking in disabled parking. But hey, wait on, she has no special sticker on her car for disabled people ?!

Other week, went on a day trip to National Park. On way home, see garbage being thrown out car window on road. Huh, Muslim family in car.

People I’m staying with told me that a couple of years ago their daughter had to tell Muslims to move their car from the road as it was blocking the driveway for her to get car out. The Muslims begrudgingly moved their car out of the way (like it was an imposition) 2 weeks later, the family home was robbed. They stole random whatever useless items and left the good bits behind. Totally random or was it vengeance?

When I walk the dog and walk past Muslims standing in front of their houses, there are never any smiles, just poe faces. I’m hearing more and more of people who have been living in areas for years and have had a sudden influx of new migrants saying that even when they walk the dog, no one smiles or says hello any more. Where once, it had been a friendly area.

At many recreational areas around the south of Sydney, there are getting more and more Muslims with their women in uniform. They always bring their own charcoal stoves, leaving behind burnt marks on grass and rubbish. They never clean up their own mess. They do this as they will not share barbecues with Non Muslims. Yeh, halal (and their hatred). Cronulla riots happened for valid reasons.

Cont....

....Cont.

Also, I know a teacher who has taught in a majority Muslim dominated public school for years. He has been seriously stressed for years and can’t wait till retirement soon which is the light at the end of his tunnel. He says the Muslims are never able to clean up their study work left behind properly or completely. Oh, and they are always complaining about Abbott.

Their other teacher friends who had done the same, could not cope with the sheer aggression of Muslim male students - always in a group of at least four, actually picking fights with their male teachers. These teachers years ago left to seek jobs in other areas of Sydney that does not have Muslims. I wonder what the female teacher experience is like?

This teacher who is barely coping, says the public education system is in a huge mess. That the managers are continually spieling spin and how well their doing (congratulating themselves) with less actual real teaching and are of no help to the teachers.

There is no rhyme or rhythm in Islam, only kaos.

As Stephen King (the author) said recently, “We are currently living in the Dark Ages”.

>>>>>>

Smiths album: "The World Won't Listen".

Nathan J;
Every hundred or so years some part of the world has to turn around and
hammer down the Islamists. In this cycle it was up to the "western" countries.
Previously it was the Russians, and the Indians had their turn and I think the Chinese
will be the next to take a turn.
Of course the Jews are always a target of the Islamists and the creed that land that has
at some time been conquered by moslems is always moslem.
Note all of Europe up to Vienna is moslem land as is all of Spain and India.

Bazz,

I'm sure there are French and English who still consider all parts of their previous empires to be forever French or English. Of course, they would be extreme Right-wingers. But what's sauce for the goose .....

So actually, how did Islam claim Jerusalem as theirs, apart from theirs by conquest and massacre ? Because Muhammad flew there on a winged horse from Mecca when he was dying, in order to go up to Paradise via Jacob's Ladder, i.e. from the site of the Temple Mount. Oh, right. Sounds plausible enough to many on the Left: winged horse, Ladder to Paradise. Ipso facto, Jerusalem is therefore forever Muslim.

And that's not extreme Right-wing BS ? As much as if some of the English still claimed all of Ireland ? Or Western France ?

Joe

"Mad World"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4

Please watch the film "Donnie Darko" in which screening had to be delayed at the time because of Sept 11. It is about a jet engine which crashed into a disaffected youth's bedroom. Then he thinks the world is going to end in 28 days.

Coincidentally, the film was made in 28 days.

I hate to be so sombre, but I am a realist.

Constance, the anthem of the defeated and disgraced left, they saw the writing on the wall 20 years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX8szNPgrEs

Britain First march in Rotherham
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfiwkrSGOM

Ah, Moe Bulldogs, where are you now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV50yuIE_Yg

Hi there AJPHILIPS...

Recently I was accused of being somewhat unkind and aggressive with some of my remarks, so I shall endeavour to remain as cordial as possible with much of what I say in future ? I see you're making quite a lot of statements about the policing industry and their methods ? Therefore I would respectfully ask what qualifications do you have, to underpin the veracity of your commentary ?

I'm very much from the old school, therefore it would appear prima facie, that according to you, I have a low IQ ? 'Mea maxima culpa' ('mine is the greatest blame') to that AJPHILIPS !

With the utmost respect, I would suggest you know little of how working detectives do their job ! Myself, I served for over 32 years in the police, and retired as a detective sergeant, probably a far lesser rank and status than your 'chuckling cousin', putatively a detective at Redcliffe (wherever that is?). As an aside, I would've thought your (police) cousin would've been profoundly embarrassed by much of what you've had to say (publicly), on this specific issue ?

Anyway, despite my inordinately low IQ, I think I've got a fundamental idea how the police force works certainly here in NSW ? And you my friend, obviously don't, as evidenced by your somewhat uncorroborated and derisible remarks. Anyway, I don't intend to waste further time with you, until you're prepared to enlighten us with your extensive policing background and law enforcement experience, as I've already requested of you. So it's now over to you AJPHILIPS ?

Dear Constance,

I'm so sorry that you seem to have had
such bad experiences
with your neighbours, and people of the Muslim faith
in general. It's unfortunate that your experiences
seem to be only negative.

My experiences on the other hand differ greatly from yours.
And they have been only positive.
I've had Muslim doctors, Muslim carers, who looked
after my mother-in-law in her aged care facility.
My podiatrist is Muslim - and inter-acting with
all of them over the years - I have had nothing
but positive experiences.

Of course the recent anti-terrorism raids in Australia
could explain the lack of smiles on the Muslim faces
that you've encountered. Have you actually tried smiling at
people yourself? It just may make a difference.

I remember walking in a shopping mall and seeing a young
Sudanese guy walking towards me. He wore a frown and didn't
look very friendly at all. I managed to make eye-contact
and said "Hello," and smiled. Well, suddenly his face lit
up, he beamed at me, smiled, and said "Hello," back.

As for the dumping of rubbish and other gross
behaviour - et cetera. I guess we've
all encountered creeps like that. The worst hoarders,
and the untidiest and dirtiest neighbour's houses that
I've ever seen - were from the UK. Real grubs. We ended
up selling our home and moving from the neighbourhood.
Their sons were violent loud alcoholic roughnecks
whose idea of fun was to throw up on your car. And their
sport was breaking furniture.

And, of course I
wouldn't judge all Brits by these people. As I'm sure
neither would you.

Joe, yes we have all seen the professional British mensahb.
However it is never preached from the pulpit of Canterbury Cathedral that all the British
Empire is still and forever will be British.
Further more any action to take it all back is legal and is a duty to God.
The difficulty is all the moslems actually believe this as it is in the Koran as from Allah.
They dare not say that they do bot believe it is so.
To do so would make them an apostate. It would be legal to kill them.

I really do not know what is the best way to handle them. As a religious group that has
been marrying their cousins for generations we can perhaps understand their problem
and how it comes to be, but it does not help us to cope with them.

Dear Bazz,

England maintained cousin marriages for
centuries - including Queen Victoria
who married her first cousin, Prince Albert.

Google - royal cousin marriages - it just may surprise
you. Common practice apparently.

Hi there FOXY...

More often than not, as a matter of course I would disagree with much of what you say, when it comes to issues of politics, or world events that have deleteriously impacted upon us, here in Australia. Such as the topic that is now currently before us.

What I do find rather refreshing about you though, or your attitude to be more specific, is the positive 'viewpoint' you generally possess, either with people or events, such as this particular topic. To be precise, it was your last response (to CONSTANCE), that took my eye, to be honest.

Whereas, even the most magnanimous or indulgent individual, would generally be hard pressed to find too much sympathy or compassion for people of the Muslim faith. Especially after the events of the previous ninety days or so ? And particularly, post the murderous activities of ISIL and their 'ratbag' cohorts.

Yet, you can still find some 'good' (in your heart), for the very people who ostensibly, would seek to absolutely annihilate us, our culture, even our country ! I really admire your stance FOXY, I really do ! Politically speaking; there's you, POIROT, and to a lesser extent SUSEONLINE, all three of you are from the 'left' of politics.

Yet you FOXY, with your measured, very compassionate and tolerant clear thinking, give people like me (further 'right' than Genghis KHAN) pause to contemplate the fact, there're those of the 'left' who do possess a legitimate, worthwhile position too ! And, who are just as ethical as we are of the 'Right'? This conundrum does really confound me FOXY, it really does ? When generally, the 'left' are diametrically the natural foe of conservatism and they're far less amenable to anything approaching regulatory processes of the individual, than those of the more pragmatic 'Right' ? It's for this reason, I find your moral compass, somewhat meritorious and exemplary !

Foxy,
Will you now admit that Glenn Mahammed, in his article, was critical of muslims for not admitting that Islam has problems within. Muslims need to openly criticize radicals, as they bring Islam into disrepute, not remain silent and seemingly condone what they do.

No wonder most non muslims are highly critical of Islam.

Foxy, yes I was aware of the royal families of European countries and the practise for
a number of hundreds of years marrying their cousins.
It was the way to be sure they married into royalty.
It was not a very common practise by rural people as they were aware of the dangers of
inbreeding, being breeders of cattle.
However Mohammad told moslems that Allah told him that it was OK to marry their cousins.
They probably asked because their camel & horse breeders were unhappy with the practise.

The NSW Heath Dept and the Midlands Heath service in the UK are very aware of the
problem as a result of the deterioration of the children in those particular districts.
Both reports were sent to their respective parliaments but as usual the politicians
were too afraid to tackle the problem. Any area with a large moslem population will
have a higher percentage of children born with genetic problems, it is just the way it is.
Google NSW Hansard it was tabled some years back.

Dear Banjo,

The link is quite clear that Muslims need
to denounce barbaric behaviour and
the actions of extremists because it
does bring Islam into disrepute. That
was the point being made.

The same applies to other religions. Wrongs
need to be spoken against. For example the
sexual abuse of children within the
Catholic Church is horrendous and intolerable
and the failure of the Church to deal with
it effectively has done immeasurable damage to
the victims. The cover-ups, the protection of
abusive clergy, and the refusal to admit
egregious mistakes are unjustifiable.

Dear Bazz,

I'm pleased that you realise that marrying one's cousins
is not just something that occurs amongst only
one religion. Its always good to look at the
broader picture.

cont'd ...

Here's a link that points out the problems
to which you are referring in the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1394119/Its-time-confront-taboo-First-cousin-marriages-Muslim-communities-putting-hundreds-children-risk.html

Jay of Melbourne,

"The number of people killed in Jihadist attacks has increased dramatically since about 632 AD. We've been in a relatively quiet period since the late 1980's."

A quote, from Martin Luther King Jr. puts it well: "Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." This highlights the point I raised re the on-going cycle element with no real solution.

Also it does highlight where "we" (only target one element of society very conveniently) - that being those who happen to be called Muslim or Muslims and very conveniently ignore the actions of others - like for example in more recent years - (let's say, the study that compared the period between 11 September 2001 and the invasion of Iraq with the period since the invasion. The count -- excluding the Arab-Israel conflict -- shows the number of deaths due to terrorism rising from 729 to 5,420?)

Should "we" simply accept numbers like 5,420 deaths in this day and age? Surely "we" are smarter than that, but for some reason - people in high ranked positions can't come to any solution other than to use violence.

By the way, if you can provide a full list of details re your first quote, from deaths rising (since about 632 AD), and more details about the "relatively quiet period" re the late 1980's you refer to - I'd like to see the whole list and I'm sure many other people would be interested as well. It would be a good education point.

Foxy,
Agreed, It is hoped the churches and other groups completely eliminate peadophilia. I am given to understand that it is most common in societies that have common or same room sleeping arrangements.

Bazz,
Have you seen any stats in relation to cousin marriages in Aus. I cannot find any stats for treatment of FGM or forced marriages. It seems we are very slack in that area, or the polys don't want us to know. Why do we continue to allow imports of people from societies where sexual acts with children is part of the culture.

NathanJ
Here's a general timeline for the expanison of Islam:
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/timeline.htm
An over view of terrorism from the 1960's to the present and an interview with Paul Bremer on the subject of Ghadaffi, Abu Nidal and so forth:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/modern.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/lessons.html
Timeline of Islamic imperialism:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades_timeline.htm

Thanks Foxy for that link.
The problem is now much worse than the articles I first read.
The major factor that makes it worse is that it has been going on for so many generations.
Having seen the problems with behavior that can result it is not surprising that
organisational behavior such as we see from ISIS can result.
The lower average intelligence of the community also I think would result in a lower
standard of living for the community as a whole.

The only way that it can be stopped is for the government to declare all cousin marriages
to be null and void. As the article suggested if all government support ceased it might
change their mind, but it would be cruel to the children.
A real case of being cruel to be kind.

Banjo,
No I have not seen any statistics. The NSW Health Dept got onto it when they
noticed the high number of children born at Auburn hospital with genetic defects.
They sent a genetist to do a study there and she went and interviewed the mothers.
In almost all cases they were married to their cousins.
Her report was tabled in parliament never to be heard from again.

The big question is how much is this now costing our health service ?

Bazz
The American University in Beirut have studied consanguinous marriage and released their findings:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/gte.2007.0093
I had that paper in full on my old computer but I've lost my library card and I'm not paying $50 to look at it again. If you've got a university or state library card or know someone who has you might be able to get it from one of the U.S universities, they're usually all linked once you join a state library.

"Consanguinity is a deeply rooted social trend among one-fifth of the world population mostly residing in the Middle East, West Asia and North Africa, as well as among emigrants from these communities now residing in North America, Europe and Australia."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/

All part of that diversity-we-have-to-have that is the darling of the culturally-cringing leftist 'Progressives'. The 'Progressives' neither recognise nor care about the negative consequences of their policies.

Putting the general aim of non-discriminatory immigration ahead of the common good and future of Australians is worse than foolish, it is reprehensible to put the Australian community at risk of what happened and continues to occur in (say) Rotherham, UK.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/rotherham-child-abuse-scandal-a-nation-in-disgrace-20140829-109u9m.html

No-one in government has ever offered an explanation why immigration is perversely preferring migrants from countries and regions with political systems, cultures and traditions diametrically opposed to our own. To do that, Immigration bureaucrats have to refuse migrants from much more suitable backgrounds and with desired education and skills. There are thousands of highly suitable young tradespeople in Northern Europe, Ireland and elsewhere who want work and a fresh start. So why not take them?

Dear Nathan,

You told ConservativeHippie that: "You once again, take on the "we are perfect" approach. Like Yuyutsu did, will then very easily target the United Nations":

What are you referring to? I do not recall saying that "we are perfect".

As for the United Nations, they are a criminal organisation because besides being useless they among other things:
1) Helped Saddam Hussein obtain weapons against his own people.
2) Supported the massacre of Tutsies in Rwanda.
3) Supported the murders and rapes in Darfur.

I happened to learn about it by watching the movie in http://www.unmemovie.com/

Jay,
I have a state library card but I am not going to the city any time soon, although
it might be possible to request it on line.
However I don't think I need more than I already know about this problem.
One measure the government could do is at overseas embassies they could test couple's
DNA to see if they are related.

Actually thinking about it. it probably accounts for the generally lower standard of living
and the somewhat poor treatment of women in Moslem countries.
I do not pretend to be knowledgeable in this subject but it does have some logic to it.

On The Beach,
The first link in your post was actually quite frightening.
It appears that even couples that are not related at all are still at risk if they come from
communities that are substantially inbred.
Also what surprised me was that even out to third removed cousins the risk is still quite significant.

It appears that any country that allows people from the middle east to migrate should
increase the services for handicapped children and as they become adults.
The politicians either do not know this or are frightened to discuss it.

In this country marriage between brother and sister are illegal.
The reason ? Because of the genetic problems involved.
In view of the scientific knowledge on genetics should not this law be extended out to
at least third removed cousins and unrelated couples from inbred communities.
The scientific knowledge now is such that the couples DNA can be examined and if
the Bittles factor as it is known is too high then marriage could be prohibited.

Such method is needed to protect the wider communities as well as the prospective parents.

Foxy,

That’s funny you mention podiatrist. I had a Muslim podiatrist also who I had been seeing for years. And guess what? She furked up my feet and tried to tell me that the pain I was feeling was a result of ageing. She subsequently fled Australia. I then tried another podiatrist and could not believe how much better my new orthotics were and my feet problems have since gone.

I do smile at people and have attempted at them. It can be hard to be kind sometimes. A lot of people these days avoid eye contact as there is fear instilled in them. Fear in society in general. I always prefer eye contact.

Foxy, tell me what are we without judgement? We all have to make judgements every day otherwise the human race could not survive.

I know a few Muslims who are fine. It is the mob Muslims who are the worry. And they are growing.

And your lack of attempt in understanding of the Islamic doctrine is careless. But you say that nobody has the right to judge Islam until they have studied for years at university. That is why you have been so INSTITUTIONALISED. So if you think this way, WHY have you not read or considered my link to Fr Samir, an Egyptian Jesuit who is a SCHOLAR of Islam? You never make any sense and are always full of contradictions.

It is clear you do not have Australia’s interest at heart and you are not interested in protecting Australia.

Foxy,

They threw rubbish on the road in the National Park.

As they are not into nature NOR animals.

A Syrian doctor told me recently (who made it clear from the start that he is Christian) that THEY are animals, desert people who have no history.

Hi o sung wu,

I’m nearing completion of a degree in criminology, but if that’s not authoritative enough for you, then I could point you in the direction of peer-reviewed literature on this subject. Google scholar is a good place to start (http://scholar.google.com.au/). Without university access, most articles there will expect you to pay for them, but there will certainly be some free articles that have links to the right of their search result that you can click in order to view them. You’ll still be able to at least read the abstract for many of the paid articles, however. There will also be some books that appear in the results that you would probably find at your state library if a free electronic version is not available. I can point you to some specific articles if you’d like; ones that have been written by former police or those who work closely with them.

As for your IQ, I wouldn’t dream of generalising in such a way. Your accusations of derision are unfounded. I did not come here to pick a fight. Your mentioning of low IQ's among police members gave me the impression that discussing IQ was not off limits. For what it’s worth, though, police nowadays generally don’t have low IQs. Police in Australia are smarter, more educated and more professional than they’ve ever been before. Regarding my cousin, for example, he has a degree in both criminology and law. He could become a lawyer if wanted (and is contemplating such a move), but really enjoys police work.

Now if you can share some of your experience to explain to me why anything I've said is wrong or would be embarrassing to a detective, than I'd be fascinated to hear your perspective. I suspect I already know what you’re talking about, however. As with Hasbeen, I suspect you’re equating contemporary policing strategies with cultural sensitivity and going soft on crime, and are referring to the frustration police can experience by the limitations that increasingly complex procedure can place on their ability to get the job done.

Dear Foxy,

And why do you only consider your own personal experience with Muslims, what about their effect on other people? Seems a bit selfish. Don't you care about their negative effects on the communities in general?

Jay,

Exactly.

Is there any hope that a Christian & secular based society, can peacefully co-exist with Islam?

Simplistically stated it all depends on two factors (1) the Christian's ability to practice the 'Love thy neighbour' principle; and (2) the Muslim's willingness to be active participants in the society rather than opting to segregate themselves into closed communities.

There are plenty of examples within our communities of everyday middle class Christians and Muslims living in close proximity without conflict. The Islamic extremists on the other hand have no desire to peacefully coexist with anyone outside their closed world.

It's unfair to blame every Muslim for the crimes of a few; it is equally as unproductive for Muslims to remain silent when members of their culture express (or act out) extremism. It takes two to Tango and the Muslims need to become less inhibited about joining the dance.

Yuyutsu,

Yet again, the "we are perfect line", with a biased approach against the United Nations is used. One review on the page you refer to came from a site: "National Review". I check these sites/organisations to see what they stand for.

I read a mission statement article - no cent of credibility. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/223549/our-mission-statement/william-f-buckley-jr

Yuyutsu: "I do not recall saying that "we are perfect". You don't have to. It's a language factor, that being, "we" (those who are not Muslim) are 100% perfect, have never done anything wrong and then very conveniently stand a high moral ground and target others. No one seems to be answering this question on this page.

In my view its a very clever "denial" factor, because many don't like the lifestyles of people of a Muslim background - but very gladly appreciate having their own rights to do what they want.

I personally don't like the meat industry (it's criminal), being vegetarian - but I don't go around telling people (when around 95% of people in Australia eat meat). My parents don't like the fact I'm vegetarian - but I do want some basic respect - when I've never committed any crime.

In terms of other people and the United Nations being criminal, where in the documentary you refer to is:

1) Robert Mugabe who targeted Anglo Saxon farmers in Zimbabwe? One of my parents friends was shot by a government militiaman. She had to pick one of her intestines up off the ground and was told by a doctor she was lucky to be alive.

2) The killings that have occurred since outside military involvement since the September 11 attacks in America?

3) What about the insidious killings (totaling six million Jewish people) during the Holocaust?

No group of people or an organisation is 100% perfect, yet for a "high moral ground" reason, Muslim people are being unfairly attacked not just in Australia but also overseas.

This includes terrorism inflicted upon Muslim people by terrorists!

NathanJ writes: This includes terrorism inflicted upon Muslim people by terrorists!

Should read - This includes terrorism inflicted upon Muslim people by MUSLIM terrorists!

ConservativeHippie,

Your response conveniently ignores the fact, that (lets say a family in the Middle East) will very likely have nothing to do with a group of terrorists and have nothing to do with their acts.

The fact that they may be Muslim is therefore irrelevant. The innocent people are then dead or injured - and potentially gone from the face of this planet. You do not care?

It's like saying if someone has been sexually assaulted or abused within a christian church, and this innocent person is of the same religion, they are supposed to be somewhat responsible?

It doesn't make any sense does it?

NathanJ

'It's like saying if someone has been sexually assaulted or abused within a christian church, and this innocent person is of the same religion, they are supposed to be somewhat responsible? '

it is nothing like that Nathan. A person in a Christian church abusing a child knows it is straight out evil. Jesus actually tells them that they are better to drown themselves this perverse act. On the other hand the Muslim terrorist believes he/she is servingt Allah. They are following a wicked ideology they believe in.

Your comparisons do nothing but to cause people to stick their heads in the sand and deny that some ideologies and religions are as evil as non the secularism.

NathanJ,
Sophistry alert!.ISIS are in the right and pedophile priests are in the wrong,nothing ISIS does is prohibited by Islamic law whereas priests are prohibited from engaging in any sexual activity whatsoever.
A Muslim who supports ISIS can do so with a clean conscience, that's why when surveyed 70% of Muslims in both Western and Asiatic societies condoned or supported Jihadist activities and why the Islamic representative bodies refuse to condemn them. The few government approved traitors, the Liberal and Feminist Muslims who are speaking out are the minority viewpoint and don't represent the views of Muslims or the teachings of their Prophet.

Thank you AJPHILIPS for your response to my query. So you seek a degree in criminology, why ? What specific vocation does that degree suit the individual for ?

Is it your intention to pursue a police career ? Like many police who unintentionally fall foul of the senior executive, one is generally consigned to an area that least suits them as a penance of sorts ? in my case it was as a senior lecturer in the police academy. A position that attracts very little overtime or penalty rates !

Anyway, we went through a stage where Police Command decided they would only recruit graduates, or those substantially through an approved degree course. Therefore it came to pass, that we were imbued with a profusion of eager young, (well educated) men and women, all of whom were seeking to ameliorate a bad world, by making it 'right', both by the majesty of their presence and lofty ideals ?

I was I/C of what was then called the 'Powers' faculty, so all those young people spent quite some time with either myself or one of my staff. At the conclusion of each component, a written examination was mandated. And it became one of my more onerous duties, to mark and assess each students examination paper.

At least 65% to 75% of all examination papers submitted were frightful, totally shocking. Remember, these people were potential police members. Many couldn't spell even the simplest of words. Their punctuation was poor, as was their syntax. Their inappropriate use of parsing or phrasing made little sense. Any diacritical marking, when appropriate was pathetic. Even basic capitalising etc., all of it was truthfully, utterly appalling !

There is one area a police member must be reasonably proficient, they must write well ? Most police documentation, is subject to Court scrutiny, ex. the DPP. Even his contemporaneous notes, in his Notebook are the property of the Court and Police Command. My point being, I've little regard for these 'educated' police members. UNTIL they can adequately prove, 'fit for purpose' as it were, AJPHILIPS ?

Jay Of Melbourne,

"A Muslim who supports ISIS can do so with a clean conscience." Get serious.

And relying on survey figures: "like an ICM Research poll in 2006 which showed 20% of British Muslims felt sympathy with the July 7 terrorist bombers' "feelings and motives", although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.

In another poll by NOP Research, almost one in four British Muslims believe that the 7/7 attacks on London were justified. So figures are varied, as people will see on this page - and these come from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism#Polls

You might like to watch SBS world news (to see reality however) and see people's homes shattering due to terrorism and women crying in the streets because because one of their children has been killed due to terrorism. Was that because it was what they wanted in a suvey? Get serious.

As for Runner, "A person in a Christian church abusing a child knows it is straight out evil."

From an article written about well known Professor Freda Briggs from Adelaide University (who looks into the area of particularly child sexual abuse who says):

“Churches (Christian) are psychologically attractive to sex offenders because they can ask for forgiveness one day and offend again on another day."

http://www.news.com.au/news/child-sex-abuse-not-the-biggest-sin-and-confession-gives-a-clean-slate-pedophile-priests-believe/story-e6frfkor-1226515833723

Actually AJPHILIPS I'd not entirely finished my response to your recent thread, I'd inadvertently exceeded my three hundred and fifty word limit, herein ?

There was an articulation used by the Bureau along the lines of 'academic arrogance' - an oft used expression to describe a double or multi-degree entrant to Quantico. The Bureau only accept applicants with an approved degree, no matter what sort of law enforcement antecedents a person may possess.

Those at Quantico hold little truck with these academics who enter the academy and attempt to dazzle all and sundry with their superior attitude. Unfortunately you reek of academic arrogance AJPHILIPS and will come a real cropper if and when you finally decide to (try) to join the job ?

Your remarks concerning HASBEEN are substantially unfounded too ? For your information, well before you were born, he was flying Royal Australian Navy Aircraft from an Aircraft Carrier, a slightly more intellectual demanding pursuit, than reading about something as dull as forensic psychiatry or similar ? A bad practice to make a false assumption about anyone, I would respectfully suggest ?

'“Churches (Christian) are psychologically attractive to sex offenders because they can ask for forgiveness one day and offend again on another day."'

I don't know why u can't think rationally Nathan. The fact that one needs to ask forgiveness shows that person knows its wrong. This is unlike secularist who have no moral basis at all for its dogmas. That is why u have the likes of Singer that condone bestiality.

The muslim terrorist believes he/she will be rewarded for evil with virgins except for the older men who have their share on earth.

Try thinking your very flawed narrative.

Constance,

"Dear Foxy,

And why do you only consider your own personal experience with Muslims...?

Lol!

That, after Constance has regaled us with her personal experience of Muslims!

As in:

"That’s funny you mention podiatrist. I had a Muslim podiatrist also who I had been seeing for years. And guess what? She furked up my feet and tried to tell me that the pain I was feeling was a result of ageing. She subsequently fled Australia. I then tried another podiatrist and could not believe how much better my new orthotics were and my feet problems have since gone."

Love this too...

"They threw rubbish on the road in the National Park."

(Of course, non-Muslims never chuck about rubbish - especially in national parks)

"A Syrian doctor told me recently (who made it clear from the start that he is Christian) that THEY are animals, desert people who have no history."

Oh well, case closed...the "Christian" Syrian doctor has spoken!

o sung wu,

There is a broad range jobs in police, courts or corrections that a degree in criminology can be a foot in the door for. I’m keeping my options open for now, but need to bear my age in mind. Mostly I just needed a change in career.

As for these shocking papers you used to mark, I would be surprised if the tertiary education attained by many of them was actually university-level or something that wasn’t a highly practical degree; because handing in essays with the appalling writing skills that you describe would result in fails. One simply could not complete a degree if they were that bad.

As for Quantico, that’s a big place. Do you have any links that discuss what you were talking about? I did a Google search and a Google scholar search and couldn’t come up with anything.

I’m sorry I come across as arrogant to you. Do you have anything other than ad hominem attacks to support your claims that I’m wrong? You implied earlier that the relatively small funds directed towards the AIC would be put to better use divided up between the eight police institutions around the country, despite the fact that the data collated by the AIC enables police, courts and corrections around the country to focus their efforts more effectively and make their jobs more managable; saving the tax pay payer billions in the process. What about contemporary policing strategies; can you provide me with anything that contradicts my claims regarding their usefulness or superiority to the use of traditional policing strategies alone?

Finally, I have said nothing about Hasbeen’s intelligence. A person can be intelligent while still being ignorant about certain topics. His alleged intelligence says nothing about how right or wrong his claims were. I don’t see how you could determine that Hasbeen’s career in the navy is more “intellectually demanding” than criminological research either if you're not even sure what it is, or what it entails. Thanks for the put-down, but this is not a competition of who is smarter.

NathanJ, you're doing it again, it's the typical tactic of the Left, lie, distort and obfuscate because you don't have a leg to stand on then produce irrelevant information to try and regain the upper hand.
The Pew Institue paper surveyed about 500-900 people in each of the countries studied and found that in general those people didn't support killing non Muslim westerners in the name of Jihad.
But of course that's got nothing to do with my post which asserted that about 70% of the Muslims surveyed supported and approved of Jihadist groups, which is borne out in a similar sized sample taken by the University Of Maryland:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
Islam prohibits attacks on innocent people and commands Muslims to take up arms in defence of the defenceless, but of course U.S Marines, Iraqi policemen and Kurdish militiamen are neither innocent nor defenceless.
What's more the atrocity stories about children being executed and women raped en masse are undoubtedly bogus neo-Liberal propaganda. Just the other day Norwegian activists were busted faking war footage in collusion with the Syrian Observatory For Human Rights:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835663/Syrian-hero-boy-FAKE-Footage-youngster-dodging-sniper-fire-rescue-girl-actually-shot-Gladiator-film-set-Norwegian-director-using-professional-actors.html

Dear Constance,

It appears from your posts that as far as Muslims
are concerned you tend to think in terms of
general categories, if only to enable you to make
sense of the world by simplifying its complexity.
Hence your personal references directed at me -
even to the degree that - I am not interested in protecting
Australia - (sic) - simply because my experiences of
Muslims differ from yours. Is quite offensive.

You seem to think that
my experiences are invalid. And yours are not -
What makes your experiences more valid?

As for protecting Australia?
I have made it quite clear that I am against terrorists,
extremists, thugs, criminals, of any persuasion.
And we have laws in this country which we expect everyone
to abide by.

To me your concepts are too vague and sweeping
in their scope and all in all your arguments appear
to be both irrational, and illogical because
they are rooted in generalisations and
you ignore not only the diferences among individuals
but you also ignore the actions of other individuals
guilty of doing bad things within our society.

All in all -you appear to have an irrtional, inflexible attitude
toward an entire category of people. You are not "judging"
Muslims - you're "prejudging" them. Which is unfortunate.
(as in prejudice). You believe that all Muslims share
the same supposed traits. They don't. And you seem to confuse
the general Muslim population with the fundamentalists and
extremists within their group. So very sad really.

Dear Poirot,

Well said.

I wish I had your talent for summing things up so well.

AJPHILIPS...

Concerning Quantico, I would hardly think the Bureau would consign anything to Google. As I was a former foreign attendee at the FBI Academy (1986 & '87 respectively), it would be patently inappropriate, nor permissible for me to share anything concerning the activities at Quantico with you AJPHILIPS ? However, for your edification the Marine Corps possess the Lion's share of the entire Quantico facility, whereas the Bureau have but a relatively small area, only about 250/270 acres in aggregate.

I believe you take yourself and your studies far too seriously, and for that reason I'm not sure what else I can say. Still, if you do wish to pursue a career in, wherever your criminology degree may take you, well good for you. However, you have much to learn about policing per se ?

For your further information, the police recruits who came through the academy during my period of penance, were ALL graduates ranging from Criminology, Economics, Accountancy, Social Science etc. three were former graduates from ADFA. I was seconded ('press ganged') to speak to graduates from Uni.of Sydney, UNSW, UWS, and Macquarie University, in a somewhat inane attempt to attract graduate recruits to the NSW Police Service. I can assure you categorically, none of the detectives I've ever worked with, harboured any enthusiasm for further numbers of these so described, 'academics' to occupy important 'position numbers' in the force !

The best recruits I found, were those who'd hitherto, been members of the Armed Forces, had done their time, and were seeking a new career. While it's true some did have degrees, nevertheless these men and women had loads of maturity and more importantly an abundance of 'common sense' a commodity you just can't teach ! A virtue sadly lacking in many of those with so called, exemplery academic achievement ! Might it be this iniquitous 'academic arrogance' the yanks used to speak of, do you think AJPHILIPS ?

Concerning tertiary studies, the general view was, by all means, but first, learn your policing trade thoroughly, and if successful, go do your additional studies.

Hi there POIROT...

Why is it that I have this enduring sense that you're a cynic ? Whether it be politics, social issues, or anything; even murder, rape or mayhem, you manage to inject your own brand of cynicism or scepticism ? Is it that your personal credo is so pragmatic you cannot envisage anything that's not empirically black or white, or must it be a shade in between ? I will admit to being very much a pragmatists too, as was our well regarded (former) colleague BELLY. But I really think you even triumph over me, for ultra-discernment and judiciousness ?

o sung wu,

Congrats on your in-depth analysis.

But I was just pointing out a spot of hypocrisy s'all....

NathanJ - I'd like to get a better understanding of where you are coming from in your defence of Muslim people and clarify where my position is for your understanding.

I have nothing against any Muslim person from any country that isn't harming or tacitly supporting the harm of others. However in this, (you'll appreciate, year 2014) the terrorists causing harm throughout the world are 95+% of the time, are from the Islamic faith and therefore are Muslim people creating harm on others, including other Muslims. I do care. I also do not want that kind of terrorism or thinking spreading into Australia.

What I don't understand from your comments is whether or not you believe what you say or if you are just playing devil's advocate. Much of your comments twist the logic so far that the comment barely makes sense.

I'm genuinely trying to understand you but when you make statements like (I'm paraphrasing now) "so many people are blaming Muslims; its like meat eaters hating me for being vegetarian" you lose me.

The one thing I haven't been able to glean from your previous posts is whether or not you are willing to condemn ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups.

Poirot,

Poirot again to the rescue to a damsel in distress. Females in full emotion. Everything in your head becomes personal. Slipping and sliding away and unable to face facts or offer any insight. Its just to horrible to imagine, isn't it. GROW UP.

I have offered more than my own personal experience with plenty of qualified references now and in the past of which you have deliberately ignored.

You are living in the wilderness. Back off and get serious.

Yvonne, Yvonne,

Where have you gone?

“It really isn't a battle between Islam and Christianity. “ That’s right, it’s a battle between Islam and the Secular West.

“...with their brand of Catholicism still in the thrall of the inquisition and burning of witches.” Really? Tell me more.

o sung wu,

We're not taking counter-terrorism measures here, just an alleged change in recruitment policy. Journal articles discuss the recruitment decisions of police institutions all the time. This article from a peer-reviewed journal dedicated to FBI research appears to discuss FBI recruitment in some depth: https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=134339. Anyway, you were only referring to the FBI limiting the degrees they take, so I guess it's not that important, more just a dig at those with higher education.

I guess I'll have to take your word for it that all these uni graduates had appalling writing skills. I would hate to see what the spelling and grammar was like for those who had no tertiary qualifications. From my observations, it's generally significantly worse.

As for your claims alluding to the cockiness and difficulty in training those fresh from university, I can certainly relate to that from my days of hiring and training staff. None of the advantages to higher education that I listed to Hasbeen (supported by hundreds of studies) are contradicted by what you say, however, because I have never seen an article claim that the qualification must come before recruitment; in fact some of the studies discuss the benefits of higher education to support the idea of police institutions putting their members through university in certain circumstances.

Well, as I said in my first response to you AJPHILIPS, I shall defer to your obvious greater knowledge of policing, and by that admission you should be deliriously happy !

I've taken the time to re-read your first paragraph, and I've not the faintest idea what it is your talking about therein, other than something about counter terrorism and FBI studies and recruitment ?

Your second paragraph; you say, inter alia '...I've just got to take your word about the level of writing of Uni. graduates...' or similar ? Well AJPHILIPS I couldn't care less what you accept or don't ? The less educated, the more pragmatic, knock about sort of bloke, with buckets of life experience, and common sense, generally speaking can express themselves far better than some of your more imperious academic dullards, that seemingly pervade your banal world of pedagogical scholarship. Give me the knock about bloke any day, as a potential police officer.

My final response to you - stay with your statistics, your myriad of studies, and in-depth, forensic thanatological investigation. And enjoy your world of tedious criminological analysis, and I bid you luck with whatever it is you wish to do with it all AJPHILIPS.

'evening to you (again) POIROT...

Thank you for that, in the approaching winter phase of my life, I do occasionally see myself entering upon a new more exciting field of human endeavour, not in terms of a new career, because at seventy five, nobody in their right mind would wish to employ me ? Perhaps a life coach or counsellor even ? My world's an oyster POIROT ?

On a more serious note, I can't possibly see a time when Christians or others who are principally atheistic, with a distinct secular mindset, will ever be capable of harmoniously co-existing with Islam ? It's my understanding, when those of the Islamic State are in charge, everyone will be mandated to convert to Islam, or else ?

Even those more moderate Muslims, many of whom would happily live peacefully, side by side with non Muslims, won't be allowed, by the more radicalised members of Islam ? What a mess eh POIROT ?

Foxy, I notice a number here criticise you for being very even handed, re moslems and
the rest of us.
I think your problem is that you do not seem to recognise that moslems ARE different !
They have quite a different ethical approach. Just one example;
They Koran tells them that it is OK to lie to infidels if it gives an advantage to Islam.
If you think about that one thing, you can see it would distort polls that ask their opinion of terrorist acts.

"Foxy, I notice a number here criticise you for being very even handed, re moslems and the rest of us"

Evenhanded?! That is the spin to get the high moral ground.

Apart from Foxy sledging Australians as "Nullarboring", xenophobes, racists and many other undeserved epithets, and requiring endless diversity that she would label genocide if the policy was directed at another people.

Bazz,
Religion aside the people we're talking about are not capable of understanding the message of tolerance and harmony or taking on board the concepts put forward by their White apologists.
The apologists of Islam, the commies and the self styled "Anti Racists" either talk down to minority groups or the things they say go over the heads of their less intelligent "community members".
You can't explain very much at all to people with an IQ in the 90's so the message from the "Anti Racists" will be completely lost on Lebanese, Pakistanis and Afghans who have a median IQ of 75.
I suspect that the Koran is unintelligible to the vast bulk of Muslims anyway, even the ones who can read and write, strict observance boils down to a simple ritual performed several times a day and participation in religious festivals, there's no inspection of the self or higher understanding of philosophy amongst the masses.

o sung wu,

My disposition, in the posts that I’ve addressed to you, have been more cautious and inquisitive than I usually am on OLO. The reason for that is because I’m still relatively new to all this and I’m discussing it with someone who has decades of experience. No data whatsoever favours a purely traditional policing strategy over contemporary strategies, so I thought it would be interesting to hear from someone who appeared to disagree (particularly now with your expressed preference for the “knock-about sort of bloke”) and whose opinion may count for something. Unfortunately, however, all I have received is grumpiness, evasiveness, insults and a show of contempt.

You sound more interested in defending a conservative worldview and a preserving a hatred for anything academic than sharing what you know; justifying your position; or perhaps seeing things from a more modern policing perspective that what you’re used to.

Dear Nathan,

Perhaps you are confusing me for someone else?
Because I never said or implied that we (non-Muslims) are perfect - in fact my views regarding the deficiencies of Western culture are well known in this forum.

If you are perhaps referring to my response to O Sung Wu, I was referring to the Lebanese culture, rather to Muslims in general: somehow they have a particular dispensation for crime and there is nothing wrong with Australians defending themselves from imported crime. In comparison, I find Jordanians wonderful and honourable people, so they should not be painted with the same brush.

ConservativeHippie,

In no way, shape of form do I support terrorism.

Being vegetarian however my parents having never liked this, since I took it up as a high school project. During the project itself, my mum dumped a plate of meat in front of my face and demanded I eat it. I said no. Out of home for about 7 years and my parents still bring up the issue. I get very annoyed with them about it. Examples:

1. Blaming an epileptic seizure I had based on not eating meat. I had epilepsy from about eight years of age and was eating meat then.

2. A few years ago demanding I see a GP, thinking I looked Ill being vegetarian. We started having a large (verbal) fight outside my unit. I eventually caved in. My GP said I looked fine.

3. Constantly being told to take vitamin tablets, when I have had blood tests, (medication related) stating I'm fine nutrient wise.

4. Brought this issue up again recently, and I had another (verbal) fight with one of my parents.

I don't go around telling other people to stop eating meat, I don't walk up to butchers shops and scream at people telling them about the animals that are slaughtered to death and the pain they are put through - as I don't wan't force placed on me, like I currently get.

I respect freedom of choice - despite the fact I consider the meat industry as "criminal" and one of parents used to work in a meatworks.

So I do object to people on this page targeting those who are Muslim, who don't break the law (and are very unlikely to) because it is a basic human rights issue of liberty and respect. You can't live a normal life, when you are constantly targeted by others, having people stand a high moral ground or basing their case on silly surveys or biased what-evers, like my parents do on vegetarianism. Do we want to live in a society that respects others or think about "terrorism" every morning?

NathanJ,

If you want to be a vegetarian I don't think that any here would be trying to prevent you.

Regarding Islam, to date only the Howard federal government has demonstrated it would heed the very, very clear demand from the Australian people that our secular State and Australian law and Australian customs and way of life must be protected.

I have yet to hear any of the apologists for Islam, or claimed moderates state emphatically that Sharia Law is intolerable and must not be introduced, ie., that Australian law and only Australian law will prevail.

Maybe you would state your position on that?

Regarding the peaceable Muslims in our midst, why shouldn't government protect them from imams who would enslave them like this nasty fellow that the UK has been lumbered with through not adequately treating or even properly identifying the risks of immigration from countries with political systems and values alien to those of the host country, the UK?

http://www.peoplespunditdaily.com/2014/08/27/news/politics/london-imam-anjem-choudary-snaps-hannity-exposing-islams-vision/

Dear Onthebeach,

<<If you want to be a vegetarian I don't think that any here would be trying to prevent you.>>

The problem is that as it stands, the state COULD do so if it wanted. Nothing in the Australian constitution prevents this. I view the following with horror: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-27/jehovahs-witness-loses-bid-to-refuse-blood/4985476

So what if Nathan was a minor suffering from a terminal disease whose only remedy is derived from dead animals?

<<only the Howard federal government has demonstrated it would heed the very, very clear demand from the Australian people that our secular State and Australian law and Australian customs and way of life must be protected.>>

Does it mean that if Australians wanted to change their customs then Howard would block them? Howard had every right to protect the Australian PEOPLE, so that they are ABLE to continue with their customs and way of life if that's what they want. He had however no right to protect those inanimate customs and way-of-life in themselves.

<<I have yet to hear any of the apologists for Islam, or claimed moderates state emphatically that Sharia Law is intolerable and must not be introduced, ie., that Australian law and only Australian law will prevail.>>

Sharia Law is intolerable and must not be introduced.
Australian law is relatively less intolerable (unless you happen to be the boy 'X' in the above link), but still immoral.

Neither should prevail.

Yuyutsu,

The Sydney boy was a minor and the Court had to act in his best interests, accepting that he was raised with a religious view that need not have prevailed if he had been provided with contrary opinion. Some might go further to argue that being raised in some authoritarian religions could in itself be child abuse. I wonder if he had anything more to say after becoming an adult in January this year, when he could refuse treatment if he wished?

It would be an interesting case to discuss. However I will leave it alone if that is OK by you, not solely because it could divert the thread but it could be an interesting thread on its own.

Dear OnTheBeach,

Yes, it is OK by me, hopefully Nathan could contribute his own ideas there as well.

Straw man, Nathan - who's attacking ALL Muslims ?

Today another car bomb in Afghanistan, following an attack on a female MP, an incredibly courageous fighter for women's rights there.

Also pictures of Syrian soldiers about to be beheaded.

Also a story about the extermination of anti-terrorist men in a Nigerian city (half a million people - no, it's NOT a 'town'). Hundreds of girls kidnapped earlier this year are still being held by terrorists there.

The vast majority of Muslims are not involved in these atrocities. A minority are. Those we can call 'terrorists' without any equivocation whatsoever.

Can we accept that and move on, Nathan ?

Meanwhile, a vile creature has favourably compared IS killings to those of Mexican drug cartels. What, those Mexicans are beheading captured soldiers by the hundreds ? Kidnapping, raping and enslaving women ? Beheading children ? Setting off car bombs every day or two ? What a despicable man.

Joe

OTB,
Anjem Choudary comes across as the winner of that encounter with Hannity, everyone should watch the video because it's a confrontation between a man who stands for something and a man who stands for nothing, a man who says what he believes and a man who says what he's told to say.
This is why Western neo-Liberalism cannot compete with Islam, it's not hard to understand why young muslims are wiling to give up the privileges of life in Sydney or London and submit themselves to the rigours and danger of Jihad and the horrors of the battlefield.
The Jihadi life is a short term payoff in itself, never mind the promises of the afterlife, these men are heroes in the eyes of their people and unlike Sean Hannity they will be remembered and spoken of for generations.

Dear Bazz,

The point is - we're all different.
We have to allow - for individual
differences within any group. Of course
I realise the concerns people have
regarding terrorists, fundamentalists, and extremists.
I share those same concerns regarding these people
What I don't
share is tarring all Muslims the same brush. Still, I
understand where you're coming from and the
reasons for the opinion that you and others
have.

Dear Constance,

Me, a damsel in distress?

Now you are displaying a most unattractive
philosophy of computational ignorance and
arrogance.

otb,

Still at it about Philip Adams's "Nullarboring"
article - I see, which has been explained to you so many
times in the past on this forum.

I have no control over your comprehension skills.
All I can suggest is that you look from Mr Adams's
point of view. His article was looking critically
at the context and circumstances, as well as
government policy, of those times. And presenting
those facts is not "sledging" anybody.

Still I expect from your past record - you're
not really interested in any explanations.
You're more interested in condemnation and stereotyping,
especially of women in general, and me, in particular.
Ah well. Lucky me. I guess?

Foxy,

You are not fooling anyone. You quoted Philip Adams's "Nullarboring" comment numerous times and demonstrate the same leftist cultural elitism, always favouring foreigners over Australians.

Foxy, you do not read carefully enough;
>We have to allow - for individual
differences within any group.

I was not commenting on differences within a group, but the group itself !

otb,

Actually, I'm not out to fool anybody.
Despite your ongoing claims which
have well and truly worn thin over the years.

I keep stating to you that - I can't be
held responsible for your lack of comprehension skills.
My quoting Philip Adam's "numerous times," were linked
to discussions on "Multiculturalism"
on this forum. You've been told numerous times
that the Adams article was taken from a reprint of
The Age newspaper, in the 1980s, - from a lecture that
Adams gave when asked to speak at a Canberra Conference
on "Multi-Culturalism in the Eighties."

What you need to ask yourself - why the continued
stereotyping? It really adds nothing to the discussion
and surely you can do better - being the "good decent
bloke" that some people may think you are. Prove them
right - there's a good chap

Dear Bazz,

I understand that - however you have to
make the distinction between fundamentalists,
extremists, terrorists, and other Muslims.
The fundamentalist elements around the world
twist the Islamic religion to suit their
political agenda and they misinterpret the
religion to make their case. To them the religion
is nothing but a tool to control people. And they
are depraved and justify their actions claiming it
to be through their version of the faith.
It is a distorted view.
And we should try to understand that from the ordinary
Muslim's point of view. Of course we should not
excuse or condone the behaviour of the nut-jobs.
That is a given, as I keep emphasising.

Ahh, there is the crux of the argument !
Foxy said;
The fundamentalist elements around the world
twist the Islamic religion to suit their
political agenda and they misinterpret the
religion to make their case.

No, they don't twist it, they are fundamentalists !
They follow it to the letter.
The "moderates" comply with the fundamentalists because their belief says they have
a duty to do so. They may not like it but as in Saudi Arabia they comply.
Reinterpretation is punishable by death !
It is called blasphemy and in Pakistan is applied strictly.

Dear Bazz,

Perhaps the following link may help
clarify things:

http://www.globalfocus.org/GF-Religion.htm

@Foxy, Tuesday, 18 November 2014 1:12:32 PM

Claims?! You mean facts, because it wasn't Philip Adams on OLO spruiking his offensive claim that Australia was 'Nullaboring' and so on, it was you, under your Lexi and Foxy nicks.

Obviously you must have agreed with Adams and likely still do, otherwise why keep using his words and at times without even attributing the words to him? Fact is, you agreed with the slight against Australians and also exhibited the cultural elitism and cultural cringe that leftists in Australia are known for.

Yuyutsu, highlights many of the issues very well.

Example: People being put in very difficult situations, by others. Women wearing the burqa having their clothing pulled from behind on the streets, by people who dislike their clothing. Some were interviewed (for news services) and said they didn't like it.

Example: After being diagnosed with a bone density condition from Epilepsy medication I was on (and allergic to), a new medication for the bone density condition, had gelatine in it and I REFUSED to take it.

For me it was like eating a meat tablet.

Luckily I was able to take vitamin tablets, along with another prescription medication, however if I was forced to take the other medication alone I would REFUSE it - and I went vegetarian at 17.

No laws, no nothing. I don't care about that - when dealing with the rights of all living creatures on the planet (being a personal life view).

In terms of Sharia Law, (or any law) for that matter, that can be a difficult issue. Law, (may or may not) be in place, or be poorly written.

For example, you can have "law", but if someone believes in something, like "Sharia" just in principle alone, (or something else for that matter) that's not necessarily going to stop a person from conducting acts relating to it.

One only has to look at Martin Bryant who murdered 35 people and injured 23 others. He wasn't thinking about law and order at all and there have been other insidious crimes across Australia and worldwide.

The Governments proposed program of ($13 million dollars) for Australian Muslim youth, at risk of getting influenced by radical Islamist groups or ideologies, will make little or no difference in my view. Parents need to be the guiding factor - that being a quality parent (or set of parents) for the children in terms of how they are raised.

If someone is "fixed" with an ideology, law can't change that.

otb,

We all cite links that we think are relevant
to our responses to discussions on the forum.
You've been told that by myself and many other posters
in the past. You cite links that suit your agenda.
Therefore your objections are not logical.

However, part of the problem here is
that no matter what opinion I express on any discussion-
or who I cite
you will always find something wrong -
and all sorts of accusations will arise - from
"cherry-picking," to "sledging," to name-calling,
to labeling, et cetera, et cetera,
ad nauseum.

It is unfortunate that you persist in this sort of behaviour
towards me on this forum.
And, frankly it's becoming somewhat tedious
to continue politely to explain things to you.

Hmmmmm. What a conundrum?
What should I do?

Ignore? Reply? Explain?
Deny?

I'll have to give it the serious thought and
time that it justly deserves.

Foxy,

It is always a long shot trying to get you to be accountable for your opinions.

As for you playing victim again, I might remind you that you are continually getting bent out of shape where others question your views. There are examples in this thread, in replying to Constance for instance:

Foxy, Monday, 17 November 2014 5:00:22 PM

Oh Gawd...somebody save us from otb and his melodramatic faux outrage.

He loves to shriek loudly about his wounded sensibilities while putting the boot in.

I'd change yer trousers, Foxy...once he's got hold of the hem, he's not likely to let go until he brews up his next chagrined lament.

Poirot inviting Foxy to play their usual game.

Easy to tell when either is on the back foot.

otb,

The day that you take responsibility for your own
actions will be the day that you can preach to others
with any credibility and be taken seriously.
Until then - best you stay silent on that subject.

As for my replies to posters in this discussion?

Have you checked your own posts recently,
On this or any other discussion?

I want to reply to you seriously, I do.
But I want to do you justice.

I shall probably do it next, or perhaps after the
next post, or maybe the one after that.

"Darn, anything that I'm not interested in, I can't even
feign interest."
(Quentin Tarantino).

Foxy,

You just confirmed what I was saying.

Now as usual it is over to you and Poirot to do your ping-pong thing, cheering each other on.

another day and another attack

http://www.smh.com.au/world/jerusalem-four-killed-in-attack-on-synagogue-20141118-11p8fd.html

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the warning.

But without any teeth,
otb can't do much harm.
Hard as he tries.

otb,

Hypocrisy is not a way of getting back to
the moral high ground. Faking righteous
indignation, and faking morality is
not the same as acting morally.

otb,

"Poirot inviting Foxy to play their usual game.

Easy to tell when either is on the back foot."

Come now, otb, I know ya hate it when I interrupt you going for the jugular. I've seen it so many times, that it's really old hat. You get Foxy in your sights, and you wind up your confected and petty quarrel (you pull the same thing on me regularly) then you make a little pile of faux indignation, set fire to it - and dance around it squealing how shameless is your opponent.

You do the same thing every time....but usually only to women.

""Now as usual it is over to you and Poirot to do your ping-pong thing, cheering each other on."

Like this you mean?

"As for you playing victim again, I might remind you that you are continually getting bent out of shape where others question your views. There are examples in this thread, in replying to Constance for instance:"

Carry on.....

The Sydney Morning Herald had an interesting
link that should be of interest at least to
those posters who don't conflate Islam and
terrorism:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-editorial/asio-needs-more-muslim-recruits-20140826-108m8f.html

"Among the estimated 1.6 billion Muslims in the world,
only the wildest fringes engage in mayhem. Those who
invoke passages in the Koran to justify carnage are
vastly outnumberes by Muslims who do not practice or
condone violence."

"Demonising Islam only serves to encourage some Muslims
to feel victimised, marginalised and drawn towards the
allure of defending the honour of Muslims through
violence."

"Last week, the head of ASIO, David Irvine, set the right
tone, when he said, "We are not fighting Islam, we are
fighting terrorism. And they're two very, very, different
things. It just doesn't make sense and frankly, it's an
outrage to my sense of being an Australian that we would
claim to be fighting Islam."

"...I would actually like more members of the Australian
Muslim Community working with ASIO. That would help us
understand better ... this is an organisation that is
designed to protect you and you should be part of it."

"Irvine's message was repeated by Prime Minister, Tony
Abbott in his meetings with Muslim leaders last week...
It cannot be said often enough that Islam is not
synonymous with terrorism and Muslims should not be
tarred by terrorists acting out their own psychoses."

Unfortunately FOXY, that's one of the main criticisms levelled at the more peaceful, more moderate Muslims whose only wish is to reside harmoniously amongst us, in the suburbs of our big cities ? Very few of them will actually overtly condemn the practices of the 'Islamic State' and their murderous cohorts. It's as though, if they remain absolutely passive, then hopefully it will all go away ? By doing nothing though, they unfortunately draw much more adverse attention to themselves, regrettably.

It will probably come to pass, that these more moderate, peace loving Muslims may well have to choose sides, if the violence significantly escalates and becomes more wide spread ? Personally, I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that, but, who would know ?

the families of those killed by muslims who are part of the US army would definetly not want more followers of Mohammed among their ranks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1225627/Fort-Hood-shootings-Army-major-Nidal-Malik-Hasan-kills-12-injures-31-shootout-troops-army-base.html

Irvine's political correctness just shows that he has little understanding of Islam at best and is willing to sacrifice the well being of our nation to say the things that won't offend the political elite. He shows why are nation is doomed

It is interesting that 'librarian' Foxy quoted from one of those 'MSMs'(sic) that she always maintains are unreliable and in so doing, strangely overlooked a very recent and comprehensive interview on Foxy's usually preferred Q&A of Senator the Hon George Brandis QC, who happens to be the Commonwealth Attorney-General and first law officer of Australia.

As an aside, long after the Governor-General's appointment of Brandis to the role of Attorney-General, the 'fact-finding' ABC still wrongly describes Brandis as the Shadow Attorney-General, which could be wishful thinking on their part. Here you go, ABC (and Tony Jones) please get up to date and show the man the respect and politeness he is due,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney-General_for_Australia

Returning to Foxy, who has previously been an avid watcher of the ABC's Q&A, Senator Brandis appeared on Q&A alone, along with every possible Muslim representative, lawyer and activist in the Q&A audience. As usual, Tony Jones was masterful in interjecting as Brandis spoke and cut off his answers to prefer more statements posing as questions from the audience. Yes, it was another of 'those' Q&A audiences and Tony Jones apparently their conductor for the predictable choruses.

Nevertheless Attorney-General Brandis was able to give very pity and practical explanations and examples. He performed creditably as might be expected of him:

- no, there is no 'demonisation' of Muslims;
- yes, it (terrorism) is a problem that affects the Muslim community; and
- yes with unchallenged examples given, the government has been consulting extensively and seeks the partnership of the Muslims everywhere in Australia to deal with the threats of terrorists to them and to Australia, as Australia is obliged by the UN to do anyway.

Senator Brandis also went into freedom of speech in detail and achieved broad agreement.

Worth watching, but sadly inexplicably missed or forgotten by the forum's self-proclaimed expert on Islam,
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4096883.htm

OTB to Foxy "Worth watching, but sadly inexplicably missed or forgotten by the forum's self-proclaimed expert on Islam"

I have never seen Foxy proclaim herself as an expert on Islam; in fact quite the opposite. Foxy's consistent message has been a defence of the Muslim and other ethnic people within our community (often being women) who are not creating a problem but are the victims of ignorant racist vilification. Foxy on several occasions has expressed her distain for the Islamic extremists.

Although I don't agree with Foxy on some of her political views I feel she has demonstrated a level head in regard to the Islam vs terrorism debate. Foxy and Sen Brandis are correct - Islam itself is not a terrorist organisation but unfortunately 95% of the terrorist in the world happen to be followers of Islam (which makes them Muslims).

OTB, a word of advice if I may, I think you need to be careful to not fall into the same trap as the Abbott haters on OLO who argue against everything he does, never give credit where it is due and thus come off looking so closed minded and one-eyed their comments lose credibility. At this point in time Foxy is looking the more sensible person over the past few days, even though I don't agree with all of her comments.

otb,

"Senator Brandis also went into freedom of speech in detail and achieved broad agreement."

On the contrary, Brandis had a smooth run on QandA to run his spiel. It was left up to a few a few commentators in the following days to correct his misrepresentation.

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/press-freedom-george-brandis-is-talking-plain-rubbish-20141104-11gfvr.html

"......What's more concerning is that Brandis, who constantly applauds himself for his championship of press freedom, appears not to understand it at all.

Witness his bizarre defence of section 35P of the newly minted National Security Legislation Amendment Act (No. 1). That's the section that makes it an offence, punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment, to "disclose information" about a so-called special intelligence operation."

"Here, verbatim, is Brandis' convoluted reply: "If it's a whistleblower, the whistleblower protection laws still apply. If it's a journalist covering what a whistleblower has disclosed, then the journalist wouldn't fall within the reach of the section, because the relevant conduct is the conduct constituting the disclosure; so if the event is already disclosed by someone else and a journalist merely reports that which has already been disclosed, as it was by Snowden, then the provision would not apply."

Well, for a start, as the Attorney-General must know, there is no chance at all that the whistleblower protection laws would apply to anyone disclosing information about an intelligence operation (let alone a "special" intelligence operation) to the media. Not a chance.

Second, most whistleblowers do not act openly, as Edward Snowden did. They approach the media, seeking confidentiality. The first public disclosure of the information is by a journalist, either quoting a confidential source, or publishing a document supplied by that source.

Is Senator Brandis really saying that the plain words of the act would not apply to that journalist? That interpretation defies belief."

We all know well by now that what this govt says - and what it does - are two entirely diffent things.

Brandis is one of the worst at tangling up his rhetoric for those ends.

Johnathon has put his spin on it, so what? Brandis was plain, the final decision is always up to the minister, that is how the system operates and the Parliament can review. So what?

You are silent on the bugger threat, which is Muslims demanding all consultation through them (the minister and parliament are not there just for Muslims to get whet they want).

Also, Muslims demanding censorship to suit their interests. Nothing to be concerned about you reckon?

Jonathon was untangling the double-speak con-artistry of Brandis.

End

One fact that seems to escape most people, Islam is not JUST a religion, it's a whole sociopolitical way of life governed by religion.
Christianity and other religions accept and usually support secular governance, "Render unto Caesar etc", whereas Islam rejects it entirely, and that fact is what underlays most of the difficulties associated with peaceful co-existence.
"Moderate" Muslims seem to be those who can adapt, retaining their religion while accepting secular governance, and good on them, they are realists, but until they are the majority and actively resist the more fundamentalist forces within their cultures we will continue to face division and destruction.
There is NO quick-fix, education is the best hope, one can see that clearly in two aspects, one, the Fundamentalists actively resist and attempt to destroy any education but their own, and two, their "education" is based almost wholly on their religion first and foremost, everything else is secondary and must conform to their fundamentalist credo to be acceptable.
The successful Muslim nations such as Indonesia are not purely Islamic, they too have adapted and provide educational structures that focus primarily on real education above religious strictures, they also have secular styles of government overlaying their Muslim society.
All religions rely on ignorance to exist, the more educated any given population the less hold religion has, that is clearly demonstrated world-wide.

Spot on, Bruce !

Otb & Foxy,

I suppose we have to be aware that the 40 % of Liberal voters in the audience of Q&A were either so subdued or gormless that they couldn't ask a single question.

Meanwhile, mass beheadings of captured soldiers in Syria and Nigeria. A terrorist attack on a synagogue in Jerusalem. What will it be today - car-bombings in Baghdad or Karachi ? More kidnappings in northern Nigeria ?

And the common factor is ...... ?

And it's all perfectly justifiable by a book.

Muslims are as intelligent, and as good or bad, as anybody else. Perhaps most of them - like most Christians - go along with the dictates and rigmaroles of their religion daily, going through the motions. But the terrorist version of Islam poses a huge problem for them, which may force an assessment of what it is about, what is 'true' Islam and what is - even when it is using the literal texts - a ghastly distortion of all that is human in Islam.

Joe

Dear ConservativeHippie,

Thanks for that.

It is appreciated and I am pleased that
you understand the points that were being
made by me. As for otb? I am no longer
interested in explaining things to him.
Nothing changes. He's on a rampage no matter
what I say or do. That's his problem. Not
mine.

Dear Poirot,

Spot on. Brandis was simply mouthing the
Party Line. Still I admired his tenacity
to face such an audience. Kudos to him for
that.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Co-operation with the Muslim Communities in
Australia may be where the answer to resolving
our problems and fears lies. It certainly is worth trying
as the head of ASIO and our PM have stated. Better
understanding of each other - may help us find
common ground.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

You've raised some valid points.
Thank You.

Foxy, if you wouldn't mind, I'd be interested in your assessment of my post above?

Oh I see the ALP computer output a packet !
-__-_-_-
Joe said;
Muslims are as intelligent, and as good or bad, as anybody else.

I understand the sensitivity of this but Joe, they are not as intelligent on average than the rest of us.
We have to take this into account despite the sensitivity of the subject.
It appears that they are starting to recognise this themselves and some are trying to
change what Allah told Mohammad re cousin marriage.
With the fundamentalists that would be very dangerous for a moslem.

G'day Bruce and Joe,

Given what you say is correct, what then do you blokes advocate for the fundamentalists that riot when ever something happens they don't approve of. Like they did a couple of years ago over some video made on the other side of the world and lets not forget the Danish cartoons. And what about those that go, or want to, fight in civil wars in other countries.

Do we denounce them and kick them out of Aus and to where? Obviously we don't want them here with their antics and if the other muslims are peaceful and moderate, they don't want them here either.

How do we separate the sheep from the goats, then rid ourselves of the goats.

Dear Bruce,

I'm so sorry not to have included you in my
general comments earlier. I was running late
for an appointment and had to scoot.

You've raised some valid points.
Education is the key.
We can only understand a community
with the help of that community. We need to
steer away from extreme points of view and
try to work towards common ground, which is where
solutions hopefully will eventually be found.

I've stated my views on this forum and I really
have nothing further to add.

See you on another discussion.

Hi Banjo,

Like anybody else who breaks any law: they pay the penalty.

As for those who go overseas to fight for terrorism, or Islamo-fascism, or any other totally illegitimate cause, their passports should be revoked. End of.

To a very great extent, the resolution of the Islamo-fascist dilemma is one for Muslims to work out. Whatever any outsiders try to do is almost bound to be counter-productive. Of course, if the fascists carry out any atrocity in Australia, whether against Muslim Australians or non-Muslim Australians, then the full weight of the law should come down on them like a ton of bricks. Terror absolutely cannot be allowed to work.

Joe

Banjo, protesting anything is a democratic right, or should be, as long as it's peaceful protest. Anyone who riots is subject to the full weight of the law, we don't need special laws for different people.
If an immigrant continuously breaks the law then they should be deported, and that means any of them, Poms, Kiwi's, Muslims, anyone.
But only the offender, not their family, and if that means they suffer, too bad, the offender caused that, not us or the law.
As for those who want to go fight for IS, let them, help them even, but they renounce their citizenship and all rights by doing so, they can never be allowed to return, no matter what!
We do NOT need or want such religious extremists here in Oz, so why force them to stay?
I'm a great believer in the long-term effects of "Aussiedom", it has stood us in good stead for ages. Simply put, the immigrants huddle together and don't fit in terribly well, their children are a mixture of those who do and those who don't want to, but THEIR kids, and the generation after that, they are usually dinky-di Aussies through and through.
You only need to stand in any schoolyard today to see that in action, eyes open, many races and cultures, eyes shut, Little Aussies voices everywhere!
However, all that being said, I'm staunchly ANTI-immigration, of any sort, I even think we should abandon membership of the UN and refuse refugees entirely,we are already up the proverbial creek and multiculturalism is throwing away our paddle.
Too many people, too much pressure, not enough jobs and nowhere near enough resources, importing more will NOT cure any of these, no matter what that Canetoad Abbort says, nor what the dewy-eyed Lefty idealists proclaim either!

Sorry, Bruce, I can't go along with what you write:

"I'm staunchly ANTI-immigration, of any sort, I even think we should abandon membership of the UN and refuse refugees entirely,we are already up the proverbial creek and multiculturalism is throwing away our paddle.

"Too many people, too much pressure, not enough jobs and nowhere near enough resources, importing more will NOT cure any of these, no matter what that Canetoad Abbort says, nor what the dewy-eyed Lefty idealists proclaim either!"

Tonight, I was singing with a group at a citizenship ceremony, so many beautiful, mostly young, people and all so obviously proud to become Australians. Most of us admitted later to getting choked up at times, thinking about what some of them must have been through to get here. As someone said, to common acclaim, "Christ, this IS the lucky country." And by the looks, those new Australians came from a multitude of countries, so it's not as if they're ever going to gang up on 'us'.

No, I don't think there are too many people in Australia. But one thing Australia has is resources, at least natural resources, mountains of the stuff. As Henry Ergas and other economists have pointed out, we've relied on those mountains for too long, and our human resource development has been greatly neglected.

If anything, some of those migrants are going to go around us 'old Aussies' and get the training that those sorts of jobs require, while 'we' frig around expecting everything to stay the same, or, act like the last dung beetles in Australia fifty thousand years ago, sitting and waiting at the rear end of the last Diprotodon. Those migrants will probably get us out of a hole that we have created.

Joe

LM, while I can understand the "feelgood factor" of a swearing in ceremony I can't believe you think we aren't already over-populated.
Our Health and Education systems are swamped, there simply aren't enough jobs to soak up our current unemployed and the job market is shrinking, due to economic factors, computerisation and the opening up of Oz to foreign products with FTA's, and none of those will change for the better in the fore-seeable future.
Our agricultural sector is staggering from one crisis to the next, valuable farming land is being lost to urbanisation and mining, and our water sources are either drying up or under threat, especially the Grt Art' Basin, country towns and communities are disappearing, and many of those that survive are being priced out all across the North, due to fly-in/fly-out workers and foreign investment in property.
The world is changing, that is normal, but the changes we see today are not often improvements for the poor shmucks at the bottom, US, wealth and power are concentrating upwards and that will continue apace, and that will inevitably lead to destabilisation, Oz is not immune.
Have you not been paying attention to poverty levels here in Oz, the housing market, the devolution of Public Housing, and so many other factors indicative of the degradation of our social order?
Oz, and the whole world, is seeing a shrinking middle-class, the division between rich and poor is growing, and forcing more people into an already difficult society will exacerbate this, not magically relieve it, LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR won't supply affordable housing, good education and reliable Health support, and those lacks will only increase unhappiness and social pressure, a sure recipe for disaster.
You may point to the growing middle-class in China and India but unfortunately that's a numbers game, a localised temporary bubble and already showing signs of instability, it will burst eventually and then there'll be millions more very upset and hurting people to rock the boat and put further pressure on Oz.

Loudmouth >> Of course, if the fascists carry out any atrocity in Australia, whether against Muslim Australians or non-Muslim Australians, then the full weight of the law should come down on them like a ton of bricks. <<

They same should apply to those two scumbags that knocked down and robbed the old man yesterday. Those two need a one-way ticket Mosul.

These days its more likely the punishment will be a group hug and an apology for creating the circumstances that lead to the poor jerk becoming a criminal.

Out of curiosity, does your anti immigration stance include Kiwis?

Yes ConservativeHippie, it most definitely must include Kiwis.

One of our big problems in southern Brisbane is with islanders. They have free access to New Zealand, which then gives them entry to Oz.

Lets face it, we have half the kiwi population living in Oz, & most of the islanders they let in now here. What sensible bludger would live in NZ when they have automatic access to our more generous welfare?

Since February 2001 the immigration regulations changed for New Zealanders. Although Kiwis who arrived after 2001 can live and work here permanently they are not entitled to permanent residency status unless they are rich, under 50, and/or fit into particular professional categories.

Kiwis have no special status, have no avenue for citizenship and are not allowed to vote. Kiwis enter the country on a Special Category Visa which effectively makes them permanently Temporary Visitors. Each time a Kiwi living in Australia travels overseas, they are issued a new visa on their return.

Kiwis (post 2001) are not entitled to welfare benefits though if they can prove they moved here rather than just being on a visit, they can receive Medicare. Kiwi children borne in Australia since 2001 are not entitled to citizenship if their parents arrived after 2001. Disadvantage children borne in Australia to Kiwi parents are not entitled to any help even though their parents pay equal taxes including the new National Disability levy.

Contrary to the ill-informed (some might even say racist) beliefs expressed by Hasbeen, the majority of Kiwis are hard working tax payers that integrate into Australian culture seamlessly.

Whilst NZ pensioners cannot even collect their NZ pension in Australia without being means tested, (being they cannot receive the benefit they are entitled to from NZ). Aussies crossing the ditch to live in NZ are entitled to all welfare benefits from day one. are eligible for Permanent Residency and afterward are entitled to vote.

Contravening the UN Human Rights and anti-discrimination conventions, even after 10 - 13 years living in Australia, paying taxes, home owners, hard/reliable workers, proven to be contributing to their communities and society - Kiwi families are denied the right to vote and the security of knowing they cannot be removed from the country on the whim of the next anti-immigration legislation.

So much for the ANZAC Spirit.

Conundrum:
Why is it those that are the most adamant about global warming and warn
of longer droughts and drier climate are generally the same people who advocate much more immigration ?

I just cannot see how the two positions are reconciled.

Dear Bruce,

Thank You for your post regarding population
growth in Australia - it definitely is a
debate that we should seriously have in this
country. Perhaps someone would like to start
a separate discussion on this topic?

Anyway, I've come across a link, that even
though it's a few years old, in my opinion
its very relevant today:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/how-many-is-too-many-australias-people-problem-20100218-Ogfp.html

Conundrum:
Why is it those that are the most adamant about global warming and warn of longer droughts and drier climate are generally the same people who advocate much more immigration ?

Bazz - haven't you read the thread The Hypocrisy of Selective Precaution in the general comments that is dedicated to exactly that conundrum?

Hi Conservative Hippie,

I wasn't aware that I had an anti-immigration stance. And with my birth-family all living in New Zealand, with some of them still Australian and a couple now New Zealanders, I certainly don't have any animus towards Kiwis.

Has Been,

My fond memories of Islander work-mates when I worked in New Zealand meat-works are of very hard workers. One pair used to pack wool, and they usually reached their quota in a five-hour day - when I joined them we took seven hours. Their ethic seemed to work hard, and live enthusiastically.

We need a lot more people like that here :)

Joe

That is interesting.

We currently have a war going on in a number of southern Brisbane suburbs between aborigines & Islanders.

Most of the combatants are living in public housing, & are on welfare, so from what you tell us, the islanders must have been here for quite a few years. That or there is some way around these fairly recent restrictions.

From recent revelations regarding many successfully ripping off the welfare system to the tune of millions, that is highly probable.

Sorry LM, I confused a statement made by G'day Bruce that was in-between your two posts on page 35.

G'day Bruce and Joe,
I can't accept what you say but lean more toward Bruce with his immigration and MC views.

What you miss is that the problem blokes are 2nd and 3rd generation now and they still call themselves Lebs. Like the croats and serbs, they still have hatreds for each other after many generations. They are taught hatred from the cradle. They will never be Aussies while ever we keep importing new arrivals to refresh the old hatreds and cultures. Some will never integrate no matter what.

So I take it you blokes are happy to keep importing these people even if 10% or 20% are fundamentalists who wont integrate and want to destroy us and our society. They have nothing but contempt for us.

I think we should stop allowing the groups in that fail to become part of us, after the 1st generation. We would be better off and they would be happier elsewhere.

No worries, CH :)

Has Been,

Perhaps that feuding between Aborigines and Islanders - and I anticipate something similar between Aborigines and Africans - may arise from a clash of ethics: a low synergy (low-input/low-output) ethic versus a high synergy ethic. I was struck by that difference more than forty years ago, working in Auckland. I suppose it also basically reflected the differences between the cultural hangovers of an Aboriginal hunter-gatherer ethic and a Maori/Polynesian agricultural ethic.

Bruce,

Of course much of what you write is true, but I suspect that Australia has squandered the opportunities for growth provided by the mining boom over the past fifteen years, opportunities to move up the economic skills-spectrum and into much more educationally advanced sectors of industry. We've missed opportunities to work smarter. Farmers have responded to changing trade conditions by changing land-uses, innovating, improving water-efficiency.

The paramount rule in today's societies is 'get used to change'. I get the sense that most European economies - and Australia - have a notion to 'persist in the same old', a sort of 'she'll be right, mate.' Perhaps it will be immigrants here who won't see it quite that way.

The coming internal battles within Islam in Australia and around the world will certainly complicate our economic problems.

I think I've offended enough groups for today :)

Joe

Banjo: There will always be exceptions to any generalised "rule", you need to ask yourself how many other 2nd and 3rd generation "Lebs" there are out there who do NOT fit the stereotype? I'd suggest they make up the majority.
In case you've missed it, I'm against ANY immigration at all, from ANYWHERE, for ANY reason, including refugees etc.

LM:
I agree with you about the wasted opportunities of the mining boom, we can thank Little Johnny for that. Isn't it funny how the Libs always claim to be the great economic managers compared to Labor, yet they've presided over all the great disasters and squandered wealth of the past century? Makes you wonder, or it should.
Also, unfortunately it's the willfully blind and deliberately stupid politicians that are locked into the past, the great majority of Aussies seem quite happy to embrace change etc, we consistently have the highest take-up rate of new tech and new ideas in the OECD.

Conservhippy; No I haven't.

Well after 38 pages can we say that Islam and Christianity can co exist but that the society we live in is neither Christian nor secular and that it's the lack of religious conviction in the mainstream and the warped belief system of the White Brahmin caste which makes assimilation impossible?

JoM, you may say that but it isn't true.
Life is far more complicated than that and religion complicates it beyond the ability of Reason to deal with.
For 'ere so long as a significant number of people insist on Irrationality then Rationality cannot supply solutions to the consequent problems, it's a mutually-exclusive situation.

Yep, Post Christian world we are living in. Only Soulless Secularism. Too many multis and we are confused and weak. No real morals. Only the Latte crowd of Elitists posturing their superiority. Empty and full of shite.

Why so many tattoos?

And who are the most persecuted people today?

Tony Blair didn't announce his conversion till he left office, as he said people would consider him nuts. Gutless Wonder. But its no wonder.....

Are we living in fear?

Tears for Fears original song:

"Mad World":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4
"Donnie Darko" film - excellent. Has been on HSC curriculum.

Nanny State.

Constance,

"Yep, Post Christian world we are living in. Only Soulless Secularism.....Only the Latte crowd of Elitists posturing their superiority. Empty and full of shite."

Lovely!....nice bit of "Christian soul" deployed there.

Just makes you feel warm all over....

Do you remember Pope Benedict's discussion at the obscure university in Germany when he reiterated a historical conversation. And the violent reactions it caused.

Benedict dug up an obscure 14th-century dialogue between a long-forgotten Byzantine Christian emperor, Manuel II Paleologus, and a Persian scholar, about the concept of violence in Islam.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”[3] The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (&#963;&#965;&#768;&#957; &#955;&#972;&#947;&#969;) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".[4]
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1897119,00.html
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/09/10/regensburg-redux-pope-benedict-xvi-right-islam-analysis/

Constance,
It's my contention that this "soulless secularism" is anything but secular and that the Brahmin caste (you call them the Latte set) are trying to govern using their own peculiar belief system or theology, often called "political correctness" or "moral relativism".
Concepts such as equality and human rights are based on beliefs, not science, science only shows us difference and inequality, nature doesn't do equality. Leaving biology to one side the attitudes, worldview and customs which mark out the different ethnic groups and nations are enduring and seemingly irreversible even among assimilated third and fourth generation communities so the idea that a melting pot is possible at all let alone of benefit to the majority is nothing but an article of faith.
The academies and schools of thought of the Brahmin castes are also producing young people who are as dogmatic, fanatical and intolerant as the graduates of a Madrassa, this article sums it up:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/

Jay,

I don’t know why you insist on calling them Brahmin Caste. They ain’t Hindu and are nowhere near religious.

Did you get it from Trotsky?

“Trotskyism uses the term caste rather than class, because it sees the Soviet Union as a degenerated workers' state, not a new class society. “

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin Brahmin (also called Brahmana) is a varna in Vedic Hinduism and also a caste of people who are members of it. Members are subdivided into numerous communities known as gotras. They are traditionally priests, artists, teachers and technicians.

It is not the priests, artists, teachers or technicians as I think they are all being undermined. Gosh, they are against priests and anyone who is a free thinker. Why can’t you accept it as just plain old Elitisism. Which include firstly, lawyers, journalists, bureaucrats and their lackies who have been indoctrinated - who use the unspoken ruse of emotional blackmail of moral relativism and political correctness. They are only concerned with themselves and their own social status.

Political correctness after all is a Communist ploy or party trick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
“The term “politically correct” was used disparagingly, to refer to someone whose loyalty to the CP line overrode compassion, and led to bad politics. It was used by Socialists against Communists, and was meant to separate out Socialists who believed in egalitarian moral ideas from dogmatic Communists who would advocate and defend party positions regardless of their moral substance.”

Cont....

….Cont

Therefore in the Western world we now have Beaujolais Bolsheviks, Chardonnay Socialists etc who have become the Elitists.

I have previously named some certain females on this forum, Stepford sisters or wives. These people are like robots and always predictable. The supposedly university educated. They’ve been brainwashed by the Marxist academics and are totally intolerant of free thought. I find them very scary.

Yes, they are not much different to the Islamic Madrassas.

Then you have the irony that this extreme Secularism has become a religion in itself.

I beg to differ with you calling them Brahmins as I consider seeing these so called progressives/liberals/elitists have Communist roots, it is these very zealots of Secularism/Atheism who are creating great injustices to society. Communism after all was all about Atheism and took a staunch anti-religion, especially Catholic stance. And there still seems to be a lot of anti Catholicism about. Why is Abbott so hated and ridiculed? Is it his religion? People go all juvenile about him and take to nasty personal attacking. The diehard Labor supporters act like it’s a footy game.

I have said all this before on the forum.

Gee, Constance for a good Christian you're sure adept at spitting venom in all directions.

What part of Christ's message do you most admire?

(Just wondering:)

Constance,

"I have previously named some certain females on this forum, Stepford sisters or wives. These people are like robots and always predictable. The supposedly university educated. They’ve been brainwashed by the Marxist academics and are totally intolerant of free thought. I find them very scary."

Wonderful!...and (if I may make the observation)....always predictable.

After you've regaled us with the bits of Christ's message you find most inspiring - perhaps you'll wax more fulsomely on why you consider your rancid rants to be an example of "free thought".

Look forward to it : )

More killings by Islamists:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30167886

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/boko-haram-kills-48-nigerian-fishermen/1/403410.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30167891

Notice how the BBC does not mention that they were Christians killed.(?)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/22/us-kenya-attacks-idUSKCN0J604W20141122

>>>>>>>>

Poirot, you have nothing to say - only personal attacks. Juvenile tactics.

Constance,

"Poirot, you have nothing to say - only personal attacks. Juvenile tactics."

Come now....surely I'm afforded an opportunity to reply to this:

"I have previously named some certain females on this forum, Stepford sisters or wives. These people are like robots and always predictable. The supposedly university educated. They’ve been brainwashed by the Marxist academics and are totally intolerant of free thought. I find them very scary."

If personal attacks are juvenile tactics - then you're a hypocrite.

Hi Poirot,

Yes, I think you've been called out on this one too.

Do you have anything whatever to say in relation to the topic ? Any suggestions on how Islamic values can co-exist alongside secular values ?

Yesterday, 45 people killed by a Taliban suicide bomber in Afghanistan. 28 people shot in Kenya for not being Muslim. 56 [people killed by Boko Haram in northern Nigeria. That's called terrorism" using terror as a weapon to silence people.

You're silent on all that, too ? Any chance you can use anything other than ad hominem attacks ? No, I don't think so: prove me wrong :)

Joe

Loudy,

I'm addressing Constance's pearler of an ad hominem - if yer don't mind.

I do apologise though for interrupting the precious flow of daily bile on this thread.

I know how you all get your jollies.

Carry on.....

Constance,

Regarding your post this morning containing links to misery.

Here's some advice from your friend and mine, Tom Hodgkinson.

"....Newspapers set out to provide entertainment and gossip, stories that feed our need for shock and horror. They do it well...you'll find that nine out of ten stories are negative and unsettling. Every radio bulletin, every TV news show, every newspaper and many of our daily conversations drive home the same message: worry, worry, worry. It's a dangerous world out there, filled with crazy, suicidal bomb-hurling terrorists and murderers and thieves and rorters an natural disasters. Stay home! Watch TV! Buy stuff on the web! Curl up on the sofa with a DVD!...As in George Orwell's "Nineteen Eight-Four", we're told that we are in a perpetual state of war - it's just that the enemy sometimes changes. We are no longer at war with the IRA; we are now at war with AL-Qaeda. Different enemy, same anxiety and the same end result: mass powerlessness."

"...Fear is an efficient controlling device. It also helps us to fulfil our roles as consumers. It is fear of life itself that keeps us spending in the arcades and typing our credit-card numbers into websites. Fear that will prevent us from breaking out, fear that will stop us, like Chief Bromden in ken Kesey's "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest", from tearing the control panel out from the floor in Nurse Ratched's ward, hurling it through the window and vaulting over the fence into the wild prairies, escaping into ourselves. Much easier to line up with the others and take the pills."

(Banish Anxiety; Be Carefree & Smash the Fetters of Fear..."How to be Free":)

Floundering Swan,

So, nothing of your own then ? No idea about one of the crucial issues of our times ?

Another hope dashed :(

Joe

I think the main issue lies in the fact that Islam is an ideology not just any faith-based religion.

The fact that not all followers of Islam host the same beliefs as the Saudi Arabians does not change the fact that the latter will sponsor mosques and will (obviously) want their interpretation to be spread, far and wide, which we are seeing in Europe.

It is far too easy for preachers to hijack the word of god and radicalise young muslims.

*

In Sweden we have gone in the opposite direction of Australia with regards to refugees and are thereby taking in more asylum-seekers than any other country in the EU if not the world/capita.

Cracks are starting to show in the Swedish system. We now have 55 no-go zones that the police do not dare venture into out of fear of being attacked. These no-go zones are predominantly controlled by muslims. The ambulance-drivers union have demanded military-grade gear to enter these areas due to the fact that they regularily get attacked

We also have, arguably, Islamist ministers in government who counter-act any form of anti-terror law here.

We are leading the statistics in Europe with regards to the number of reported rapes in the EU, the most school fires.

Last but not least the so-called "ethnic" Swede does not exist according to Swedish politicians, media and society due to the fact that anyone with a citizenship is defined as Swedish.

We have upwards 350 Swedish men who have travelled down to slaughter in the name of ISIS.

I am well-aware that this is Sweden and not Australia but it is worth taking a serious look at a country that has for decades attempted to integrate muslims and asylum-seekers of other faiths into society.

http://swedishsurveyor.com/ and http://swedenreport.org/ for more information regarding these issues. The two forementioned bloggs are fact-based and have sources.

There is a very interesting article in today's Australian, on the last page of the Higher Education section, exploring the 'Islamophobia' scam.

It raises many issues. But IF, IF, IF the murder, rape, kidnappings, slavery, and beheadings of IS, al-Shabaab and Boko Haram can be justified by the teachings of Islam, and if Islamic scholars are tepid in their comments about such practices, then put me down as an Islamophobe. IF. IF. IF.

If from the current teachings of Christianity, or any other religion, if preachers were advocating anything like the above, and nobody else from that religious leaning condemned them, then I would be as happy to be called a Christianophobe or whatever. Disgusting.

How on earth can such vile practices be condoned ? I can understand the pseudo-Left going along with anything that was anti-American, but surely there are limits, even to what crap the pseudo-Left will swallow ?

No, maybe not.

Joe

Swedish Surveyor,

Welcome to OLO.

I have been aware of what’s occurring in poor old Sweden. Political Correctness MADNESS. I read heaps.

Sweden I hear is entrenched in Socialism.

Poirot,

I said I agree with just about everything with Tom, but not this. My life is balanced enough that I can handle reality. You obviously can’t. Do you get out much and speak to people? I do, and people are unhappy, and they have a lot concerns of what’s happening. Over worked, everyone disliking each other and all the political divisiveness, etc.

For some reason just because we are living in a modern Western society people seem to think we are immune from evil. You are living in a bubble. Then we all live in segregated microcosms. And that doesn’t bother you? There has always been good and evil in the world, always was, always will be. The bubble will soon burst. See the writing on the wall.

I’ve been where you haven ‘t been, including a workplace. I know stuff, you don’t.

Enigma - Age Of Loneliness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APW_QwzGg2o

"Want of foresight, unwillingness to act when action would be simple and effective, lack of clear thinking, confusion of counsel until the emergency comes, until self-preservation strikes its jarring gong - these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of history.”
&#8213; Winston S. Churchill

“A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury.”
&#8213; John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Constance,

It's great that you and some others are aware of the current situation in Sweden. It is worth putting into perspective :)

One example of sensible policies is the Australian governments much despised youtube clip regarding those attempting to enter the country via boat. Whilst your sensible policies are vilifed, the number of people who travel to Australia via boat and risk drowning is now minimal.

Swedens "generous" policies are instead leading to Africans and Middle Easterners drowning by the thousands along southern Europes coastlines.

I hope you guys work to preserve your culture and values. Don't succumb to the Islamophobe-industry and the so-called "useful idiots" Bear in mind that common-sense might lead to an influx of Swedes wanting asylum.

Could be worse though, eh?

Good luck!

Constance,

".....My life is balanced enough that I can handle reality. You obviously can’t. Do you get out much and speak to people? I do, and people are unhappy, and they have a lot concerns of what’s happening. Over worked, everyone disliking each other and all the political divisiveness, etc.

For some reason just because we are living in a modern Western society people seem to think we are immune from evil. You are living in a bubble. Then we all live in segregated microcosms. And that doesn’t bother you? There has always been good and evil in the world, always was, always will be. The bubble will soon burst. See the writing on the wall.

I’ve been where you haven ‘t been, including a workplace. I know stuff, you don’t."

(I'm pretty well on the same page as you regarding Western consumer society and its penchant to isolate people from communal obligation)

But how does trawling around on the net and MSM for despicable human acts by non-Westerners solve the problem of your main beef about "Western" society?

Also fascinated that you plug Hodgkinson's championing of the Catholic ethic compared to the Protestant. (and I agree that the Protestant way is far more austere and less colourful and materially indulgent)...but his point was that "life is absurd" - we need as much merriment as we can gather. If all is vanity, then we may as well send out good cheer, wave to each other - share this bountiful life with good feelings.

You appear more imbued by fear and loathing - the antithesis of Tom's message.

Poirot,

I am able to find my own inspirations in life to balance out my awareness of evil.
My conscience tells me to communicate and warn people. It’s called responsibility.

Why are people always saying that we are powerless, and just appreciate what you have and go with the flow? The Lemming Suicide Plunge.

Those that didn’t see the writing on the wall or did and were inactive didn’t stop the Nazis, did they?

I’m actually following Dr Tom’s recommendations and will be escaping the Bolshei Bull Twang of urban life.

I am free at last!

Jay,

Is it the “Boston Brahmins” – Mayflower Puritans – WASPS. Elitists who were anti-Catholic?

How come you didn’t respond to my last post?