Yes... my title is deliberately controversial. I don't believe for a moment that GWB is a 'messenger of God' in any way other than he might be able to read scripture publically.

But the point I'm making in this discussion, is the similarity between what the USA and Bush are doing 'now' to what Mohamed did in Northern Arabia.

Lets look at what GWB is doing:

1/ Pre-empting attacks from outside states, and attacking them. He is saying "If you are not with us, you are against us".
2/ He is binding them by treaty and political relationship to the USA sphere of influence.
3/ Those who are peaceful and supportive of the Gospel of Democracy, are left in peace, such as Pakistan.
4/ Those who are opposed, are attacked and subdued.

MOHAMED during the period of consolidation of the first Islamic State, recognized the danger of having tribes and clans to the north, which were allied with the Byzantines.

Interstingly, he sent his general up (Kalid Al Waleed) with the following message:

"Fight us, or fight for us"....hmmmm this sounds strangely like "If ur not with us, you're against us"

Any city or tribe which did not enter into treaty with the Muslims, was destroyed and its women and children enslaved.
Dumah was sacked, its prince forced to convert to Islam and become a reluctant ally.

The parallels are astounding. Sufficiently so that no Muslim should EVER criticize GWB for his actions, as they reflect those of their own prophet, with one notable exception. GWB is not asking Arab rulers to convert to Christianity.

GWB can be criticized by many of us, for many things, but no Muslim can ever do so. They are witnessing their own history, except that this time, 'they' are on the losing side.

Let me ‘deliberately’ take the bait this time.

Preamble:
Time constraint is not valid here. Prophet Mohammed lived in a time where every empire, clan, state and tribe was at war unless you have a peace treaty. There was no UN-like body to organise and maintain states relations and nation’s sovereignty.

a. Muslims early wars were survival wars. A simple proof is that in any average war Muslims were out numbered by a factor of 1:9,10 and sometimes 15.
b. Muslims protected Christians and Jews and maintained their churches and synagogues against the Jizyah (a defence tax). This was a revolutionary kind, merciful and un-heard of even by Christian empires at the time (refer to the same time history of Europe how Christian Europe was doing)
c. Muslims never broke a peace treaty unless their opponent blatantly broke it. Also, they accepted offers of peace and truce even when they were in a stronger position.
d. Muslims never converted anyone by the sword. Christians, Jews lived amongst Muslims for the last 14 centuries. The Nativity church and the early Egyptian churches were best maintained by Muslims until today. Even when Christian Europe turned on Jews in the 14th century they migrated to Muslim counties seeking refuge and protection.
e. Muslims never practised collective punishment. Even when their opponent broke a peace treaty and attacked their women and children, the prophet investigated and arrested only those who were involved
f. Muslims never looted or stole wealth of a country they dominated on the contrary, they enriched it. A living proof is Spain: the best architecture, infrastructure and street designs are where Muslims lived.

Now GWB: my personal opinion: a sincere guy more manipulated than naïve. GWB deserves respect on uniqueness: he takes decisions regardless of vote which is a good quality that western politicians should learn from.

(Continued)
On Iraq:
a. I don’t know why we are there. There has never been a link between Iraq and terrorism. The war was with Taliban (ie Afghanistan and potentially Pakistan).
Being in Iraq reminds me of old joke about the little kid looking for his toy in his bedroom. When his father asked him “I thought you lost your toy in the backyard” he answered innocently: “yes dad but the backyard is dark, my room is lit!”
Who are we fighting in Iraq?

b. I don’t need to talk about collective and collateral damage in Iraq the number of civilian casualties speak for itself. There was a number of incidents were Aussie troops objected to non-precision equipment used by the US troops. Anti-Australian and anti-Islamic practices. God bless our troops!

c. The Iraqis wealth is sucked by foreign oil companies and the ‘spoils of war’ are distributed only to US companies. One would wonder why not an Iraqi national investment board and Iraqi oil companies. I think the AWB stunt by the US was an obvious one.

d. The total destruction of Iraqi infrastructure (similar to what Israel did in Lebanon) which is the extreme opposite of what Muslims did in any country they conquered

F.H. could you please read this link, specially the part about the Tabuk campaign, and then revisit your list and see if you wish to alter or modify any points ?

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MH_LM/campaign_of_tabuk_and_death_of_ibrahim.htm

You need to scroll down to about half way, and you will come across this bit (heading)

"Ibn al Walid's Campaign against Dumah"

I hope others will read the whole of this document as it is not that long, perhaps a few pages only. It would help all of us work through these important issues, and see the root causes of say F.H. viewing things differently from myself and possibly others.

I urge others to read particularly the heading cited above, and then compare the events with F.H's list :) See if there is any discrepancy, and if so, how is it explained.

Ok.. off to the gym for kickboxing :) to prepare for the mujahadeen in Melbourne..oops..WAIT.. they all pleaded 'guilty' to the charge of assault against the chanel 7 cameraman.. aah.. they will probably only get suspended sentences so I better still do a good workout :)

cheers F.H. and all.

Boaz,

I forgot to mention the historical references:
All writings of William Muir & George Sale who are credible British Historians who documented and travelled across to check historical references.

I am not using Muslim view of the universe and neither missionary propaganda sites.

I thought we are talking about GWB and Iraq? Can't you master your grudge and envy of Islam for a day?

Blessings mon ami! Ramadan is here soon.

FW,

Catholics have a type of mini-Ramadan every Friday but no feast afterward. You guys get the good deal compared to Catholics. ( :

Irrespective of controversies about the Prophet Mohammed I presume everyone would agree that he would never have done this:

Explosive damages Virgin Mary statue

By KYLE PEVETO
The Daily Sentinel

Wednesday, September 20, 2006

The calm of a Catholic courtyard built for prayer and contemplation was broken Sunday morning when a small bomb shattered the white plaster face of a statue of the Virgin Mary.

Located along a row of Christian student centers on East College Street across from the SFA campus, the courtyard sits between St. Mary's Catholic Chapel and the Catholic Student Center, where students come for camaraderie and religious study away from class.

No one witnessed the vandalism, and police have no suspects. Catholics at the center considered the act purposeful, but without any malice toward the organization.

"It kind of takes you by surprise, a little," said Omar Marroquin, student president of Knights of Columbus, a Catholic service organization. "You're angry for a little bit, but it is an act of stupidity from someone."

The vandalism occurred days after Pope Benedict XVI, the leader of Roman Catholics, drew anger from many Muslims over remarks made in a speech. Also, the Knights of Columbus donated the statue more than 30 years ago in memory of aborted pregnancies, according to the Rev. Jesudoss Thomas, the chapel minister. He said he hopes the statue's vandalism was not tied to any statement, and no group has claimed responsibility for the vandalism.

....

I think it is a stupid thing to do but it is much better a way to vent frustration than killing a nun.