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The Forum > General Discussion > George W Bush, Emperor and Messenger of God

George W Bush, Emperor and Messenger of God

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Dear F.H. I cannot separate 'tribalism' from Mohammed. He was the perfect example. His actions are pointed to as the finest.

There is no contradiction between the Quran and say the massacre of the Banu Qurayza as it is referred to there. Just fleshed out in the Hadith and Histories.

Khaibar is my biggest worry. Mohammed's actions cannot in any way be regarded as other than his "theology in action" mate. The grisley torture of Kinana... the marraige to his wife, while his body lay on the blood soaked ground.. the imagery is almost too much to contemplate.
Even Muir your hero, writes devastating things about the 'dark' side of Mohamed's character. If you reject the portrayals of his character based on tribalism, then you must reject ALL..not just the distasteful parts.

The things you mention about history and science.. I accept them but not as from 'Islam' simply coincidence from a different stream of history, just as the discovery of penicilin was not based on 'Christianity' as much as good observation mate.

You say the Quran is tops..but to me it came 'from' Mohammed..not God.
I conclude this with ease by simply observing his 'convenient' revelations which let him 'off the hook' over controversial issues such as the marraige to his adopted sons wife and other 'convenient' verses regarding his access to women.. the mind boggles.
But I don't want to sling mud... you can read as well as I can.

Hope you are holding up well in your fasting.
Cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 25 September 2006 8:08:58 PM
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F H,

Your Egyptian example if I understand it correctly is thought provoking. The behaviour of the Christians over there is similar to behaviour that many here apparently associate with Muslims. Rioting in the streets can clearly be cultural over there. It is apparently an illiterate and volatile culture. This however ties in with the idea that the Quran is taught to everyone. To me it raises two issues:

1. It has been suggested that some political and religious power brokers take advantage of the illiteracy of the people and that the BBC Pope comments is an example. The illiterate actually believed that the Pope was insulting them because the literate wanted them to and found the misunderstanding an empowering tool to manipulate the masses. The view seems credible. What do you think?

2. Why do you consider that Christian teaching is only available to the elite. Christians for various purposes are forever trying to make Christian teachings known and in Western countries Churches were the first to push for mass literacy. Could you please elaborate on that point?

Further, it seems a little ambitious to assume that Catholic writers, at the time when their country was at war with Muslims, would have said that to conceal Islamic mathematical achievements. Da Vinci code conspiracies attributed to Christians normally relate to theology not maths. There are obviously much more likely explanations theological (contrary belief), situational, and cultural if you look at the interactions of the cultures. You seem to want to make Christianity look backward compared to Islam but rather than challenge the Muslim claim to enlightenment I'll note its controversial nature. In this forum someone claimed that the achievements were more spoils of war than personal accomplishment.

As regards the theology I do not believe that I have a van Dyek's bible but in the ones I have looked at Jesus as God and the trinity were supported.

Thank you for bringing the religions into focus in this way. It could spark some very lively discussions as you appear to essentially argue that Islam is better than Christianity.
Posted by mjpb, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 10:21:09 AM
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Dear Boaz David,

First, many of the hadith you refer is a) collected two/three centuries after the prohet’s death and b) Quoted the Jewish tribes as the source/ reference.

Second, Islam is not the teachings of the prophet Mohamed but the Quran as the word of God. History proves that the prophet didn’t appreciate people calling him 'master' or 'teacher', he wanted an anonymous grave and Caliph Omar cut the tree where he used to teach after his death so people won’t turn it into a holy place. Your ‘manufactured’ grudge on the prophet of Islam is unjust and unjustified.
And given your comment: what do you think of Yahweh (the God of Israel in the OT and his prophet kings). Did you read the compulsory killing of men, women, childern and cattle?

“You say the Quran is tops..but to me it came 'from' Mohammed..not God”

Reading the Quran is a matter of individual choice and $9.95 from Dymmocks. I can only say that few thousands Aussies who read the Quran in comparison to your scripture will strongly disagree with you :) :)

The Quran couldn’t be from Mohamed for many obvious reasons (re-read the Bible and the OT carefully). You just don’t like the ‘Jesus is a prophet’ story that’s all. The Quran, the Gospel of Barnabos and many other Gospels talk about Jesus the prophet but it’s easier for you to discredit all of them because they are not telling you what you want to hear. Will you reject today’s bible because Jesus describes himself as a prophet? That the Virgin Mary had 4 younger brothers after him? (She couldn’t have done if she knew Jesus is divine).

There is an old African wisdom that says: “if a man calls me a horse I will fight him, if the whole village call me a horse, I should go and buy a saddle”.

Blessings, Ramadan is a great time for reflection and prayers.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 10:34:04 AM
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Hi Mjpb,

Thanks for your comment.

Lets start with a minor correction I don’t see Islam as superior to Christianity but rather are one of the same fabric. I only use thought provoking statements with the likes of Boaz sometimes to cool him off but no offence is intended.

Answering your points:

1. Totally agree: the media like to stir the naïve and to be honest the local media in many Muslim countries are worse: they don’t investigate the source and try to inflame conflict situations.

2. I was referring to historical sense to present. Until the 18th and 19th century reading and teaching the Bible was restricted to those within the church hierarchy.

My point regarding history is in essence Islam and Christianity are one of the same but for some reason they seem to be both in denial about it. We share the commandments and belief in Jesus and Muslims can learn a great deal from reading Jesus history, teachings and biography. Christians can also benefit from reading the Quran, the story of the Virgin Mary and Jesus miracles (many of Jesus miracles in the Quran are not mentioned in the Bible).
The Van Dyek bible is the Arabic Orthodox Bible and you can get it via the Bible society of Egypt or from the Coptic Orthodox church community in Australia.

Apologies if I offended your beliefs but I have been struggling with "Boaz lord of the rings" for yonks.

Peace,

T
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 10:50:26 AM
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aaahhh F.H.... I see I have yet much work to do :)

MJ.. F.H. is speaking from a 'educated in a Catholic school' background. So, much of his perspective emerges from this.

I don't have time to 're-educate' F.H. right now :) but I do want to make the point above, and take up one issue..

Mary did indeed have more children. There is no problem with Jesus having been born miraculously and her having a normal married life after that. F.H. you are reflecting that Catholic background mate...

Should I tempt you with some nice friend noodles while daylight ? :)

Ok..I wont.... fight the good fight.. there can only be one winner :)
and that is the Lord.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 1:45:09 PM
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Boaz,

My position is and have always been clear: reading the Quran and the Bible: the character of jesus is the same.

Jesus is a prophet in the Bible by his own words, for his family and friends and on the cross.

I can't see how the Bible is different to the Quran on the Character of jesus. So where did the divinity and his death for our sins come from? Later philosophies perhaps?

I took every criticism with a smile Boazy so please don't duck for cover and runaway when the kitchen is hot. Answer the question: practised christianity today is not in the Bible? how did you end up mixing philosophy and religion? If you practice the Bible and consider Jesus for what he really is in the Bible then you are technically a Muslim in denial :)

Thanks for the soup offer but I am not tempted. Maybe after Ramadan I will buy you a coffee.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 4:18:47 PM
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