David Boaz
We have spoken to many farmers who say they prefer feed and water for stock out of the public donations for Farmers appeal.
' It only makes sense if you keep a farmers stock going he wont be in need of having his kids school fees paid etc.
We have also spoken to many members of public who said of course they thought their money wouldd go to buying feed for stock.
We are at a loss to understand how anybody could turn their backs on Gods Creatures.
The lady in charge informed us she had attended farms counciling people not to take their own lives. She said she had "never thought before we raised it" Gods creatures dying slowly of starvation and thirst.
Never thought of it David can you believe that?

We invite everyone to write a letter To Slavation Army keeping it to three hundred and fifty words and David is going to overseas them and we hope add his also.

For the record David since our contact they now have adds on TV saying- Anybody can feed sheep.

Yeh sure- So long as they have feed.

I think thats a clear example of their attitude anyway.
Thats an insulting thing to say to our farmers.
It shows us all their real attitude towards farmers as far as we asre concerned.
Anybody can feed sheep indeed. How insulting!
We are a not NPF organisation. most of our people work 14 and 16 hour days without pay.
Why do these people take public money given to Australian Farmers to PAY themselves.?
Its wrong.

Ok David we will leave it over to you know to help with a letter asking these folk to see what is before their eyes.
Thank You David Boaz

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming

What on earth would possess you to give Boazy a soapbox to rant on and on. We all know from reading his many irrational posts that he is not in touch with reality and just loves this sort of attention. I think the best thing to do is to ignore him. I haven't bothered reading his posts for ages and I suspect most others have turned off him as well. Inviting him to give his opinion is almost as irrational as he is. His views are irrelevant except to a very small number of bible bashing crazies. Ignore him.

Do not worry about BD ranting Pale can do better at the drop of a hat!
How out of touch are you with the real world pale?
Do you understand just how hard some on the land are finding it to live?
That for some the food and all that comes with it is a Christmas gift, while not given just at Christmas it is proof Australia cares.
I will tell you a true story from my childhood, not in any way are all on the land rich pale.
A passing tourist once gave some country kids a loaf of bread and packet of sweets, the first sweets those kids had in two years it still reminds me to give what you can.
I often review your posts and mine to assure myself I am not being needlessly rude.
But you assure me in this post you can never understand the pain this drought brings to rural Australians.
While I no longer come from the land my work takes me constantly to country so bad it hurts.
And are you even a little bit aware some even kill themselves because of this drought?
I find your reasoning astounding putting animals in front of humans who are suffering so badly.
And while not a Christian can not except that you want a well loved group like the Salvos to starve humans and save animals is idiotic.

Peppy
I notice you are not prepaired to assist with the letter yourself.
This is one thread where I prefer to leave personalitys out of it if you dont mind.

We excepted Davids offer because-
A He was the 'only one who offered' to take a look at writing a letter to them.
B Because as you know hes rather fimilar with quotes etc.

C Because had you read a few more of his posts you would have read where he made a comment about meat works.

D Because when he posted on one particular thread he showed his real intentions- Which were all good.

E Because David has a deep faith in God but not nessarrily organised religion.

F Please feel free to comment on this thread.

Do you think we should ask farmers what they need to help them with public money instead of telling them where the money is going to.
Wouldnt a farmer know best what a farmer needs?

As a member of public who donated shouldnt I be able to say - That 5 thousand dollars i gave is to by feed for stock?

Do you think any organisation should take a percentage when collecting funds from the public for a natural disaster such as we are seeing now in Australia?

Do you think its ok to let stock die slowly and then say Gee I never thought about the animals.

Do you care Peppy or did you just come in the rubbish Dave?

Pepppy... I'd hardly call asking for support over a call to a common sense approach to distributing the gifts of Aussies toward needy farm animals a 'soapbox to rant on'... mate.. give us all a break... I'm honored and humbled that I'm even remotely regarded as someone who might have some small impact. Its not about 'me', its about the issue.

PALE could you assist by gathering uptodate information about the following:

1/ What is the balance in the fund right now ?
2/ What policy guidelines are being used to distribute it?
3/ How much of the fund is allocated to 'administration'?

I'll give the Sally's a call today and try to find out more myself.

Once I have sufficient information I'll think about some kind of response, which will definitely include drawing their attention to this thread, and your comments.

ACTION STATIONS. Once info is gathered, this can be used as a basis for more active involvement. I suggest you contact any members of your group in the various States, and recommend they make appropriate enquiries, including media about any problems they perceive.
I'm reluctant to 'pick' on the Sallys without adequate facts,because they have 2 very ministries near me, one being a drug and alchohol rehabilitation farm and another a youth ministry/conference centre.. both of which do a great job.

If it can be shown that they are misguided in their distribution of donated funds to farmers, I'll certainly ring them, write to them, and be supportive of a reconsideration of how to approach this.

blessings.

Pale.. just one more thing. Which particular person/contact at the Sallys did you call ? If you have a phone number and name it would be helpful.

Belly.. I don't think PALE is putting animals 'before' humans, but she sees the welfare of the animals as part of the total solution.

I'd prefer to see a flexible approach, ....offering farmers the alternative of which they need most.. Animal feed, or temporary assistance to get them through the financial struggle they encounter because of the inability to do anything for the stock.

Stock can always be sold... so there is a safety valve, though they might be in such poor condition they would not bring much income....

I think the Sallys' would be receptive to feedback.

David

Yes of course we will supply all you request.

Could you however wait until we have done so before you contact them.
We want you to have ALL the facts. If then you think we are being unfair we WILL listen to you.

We are not picking on the Salvation Army. We had the same issue with the red cross farm hand appeal years ago.

You see David we are in contact with farmers. Also and please note Belly we are from the bush third generation farmers ourselves.-

Nor are we suggesting anybody put Animals before people.

We are suggesting that its common sense to keep a farmers stock alive which is the reason he considers taking his or her life in the first place.

David we know what the Salvation Army will say to you.

Thats is that Peter Costello will not allow them to use funds collected from the public for stock feed and water.

I am going to post the history the names the letters and how this correspondence between the Salvation Army and our organisation has been played out so far.

Just give us time to go back and put all the emails and phone calls and letters in order so it makes sense to you and others.

Here are the real people doing Gods Work.

http://www.aussiehelpers.org.au/

These people wrote to the Salvation Army ages ago about the same thing- Which they the Salvation Army denied. Intead they said nobody had asked for this type of help.We have a copy of that letter David they received asking them to help with feed for stock.

Men and women of Australia. Please help the Aussie Helpers who do not take ONE CENT of your donations.

Hi PALE.. lucky I looked here b4 I clicked 'send' :) Here are the questions I drafted for the contact person at the Sallys..
I'll await your info before I retrieve this from 'drafts' and put it in the 'out' box.
regards
BD

http://www.salvationarmy.org.au/drought
Matt Tatti 03 54427889

Dear Matt.
I have been asked to contact the Salvo's regarding this appeal and the handling of the funds.

Could you indicate the following:

1/ Current Balance in the fund
2/ Guidelines on which funds are distributed.
3/ Is there a provision for direct stock feed assistance as well as human assistance ?
4/ Does the Salvo's produce an annual report on the fund, and how funding has been allocated, including the percentage allocated for administration?

Regards
David B

P.S. this issue was raised in a forum to which I draw your attention here.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/compose-message-general.asp?discussion=659

hello David
Firstly we made it clear to OLO readers this is NOT an attack on the Salvos. its a plead for a change of attitude. Its a plea for everybody collecting money from the public to listen to the victims- The farmers. Its a plea for a more common sense approach. Now we knos we will offend some however paying people to council and pray is hardley doing our best. Public donations for Farm appeals ought to be left up to the person making the donation. Also to ask the farmer WHAT HE wants.
Church leaders from across the country are sadly lacking in compassion[ OTHER THAN PRAYERS FOR GODS CREATURES>]
The lady I spoke to David was Lyn lochrane. She said to be honest she had never thought about it. We are aware the Ausies helpers HAD in fact already written and some others also.

I have coppied part of a letter from the head of Salavation Army below for you David.>

Hi Wendy

I can't comment on the information you were given through the Southern Territory. I think you spoke to Major Lyn Cochrane,
What I can say is that The Salvation Army will continue to operate within the scope of it's constitution or charter which is to respond to human suffering. We have a positional statement for our church members on The Environment which expresses concern for all forms of life, not only human life.
But I reiterate that we are not in a legal position to spend donated funds for this purpose.

It would be a simple thing for The Salvation Army to change it's structure on paper (to include animal suffering in drought.It seems to me that it would be just as simple for the RSPCA to channel it's funds into services for victims of domestic violence, or Greenpeace to begin supporting medical research. Perhaps that's a question I'll leave to the legal experts.

Regards

Neil
Neil Dickson (Major)
Territorial Appeals Director

Since then they paid for another TV add.
It says-
WE ALL KNOW HOW TO FEED SHEEP?
Whos paying for that?

Hi Wendy, well.. it looks like they are acting in accordance with their constitution, and that is quite important. But..having said that, it may well be that the 'message' they are sending out, is drawing donations from people who are concerned to aid the suffering animals, which may be a bit dicey ethically.

The question there is.. to analyse their advertizing, and see exactly what the OVERALL message is.. for example:

Do they show suffering animals ?
If they do, how do they connect this with their limited scope of operation?
Why would they show suffering animals if they dont intend to help alleviate that suffering ?

I've not seen the adverts but I know TV advertizing costs an arm and 3 legs... so.. I'd focus on the actual 'para message' of the Ads...and then ask them how much they spend on:
a) Ads
b) Non Aide related things like Administration and Salaries from each dollar collected. (for specific needs)
c) Ask if this is revealed in their annual report.

Hope this helps.
BD

Thanks David

Actually all we wanted was help to draft a letter to them.

We never suggested they acted outside their rules.

We ARE suggesting this IS their calling.

Its common sense if animals die it is the farmers income.
Its dam right cruel to do nothing! to help Animals also.
Nothing.
Yes in the past other organisations have shown dieing animals and very poor animals.
Salvos spent money making a add just to say. We all know how to feed sheep.?
Dont worry about how much they get or anything like that.
Its not the issue we are raising.
We are asking not only the Salvos but all Churches to show some leadership towards Gods Animals.

Actually the RSPCA do a lot of work with dometic abuse because they know only too well you cant serperate neglect of people and animals
_
RSPCA Australia
www.rspca.org.au Online shop, pet insurance, info and advice, online donations.
Domestic Violence
www.endabuse.org The best solution is to prevent violence before it starts.
RSPCA QLDIn September 2005, in an Australian first, Credit Union Australia (CUA), RSPCA Queensland and dvconnect domestic and family violence service Queensland ...
www.rspcaqld.org.au/pets_in_crisis/ - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] Media Release RSPCA Qld connects to help victims of domestic violence.File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
state-wide 24hr domestic violence counselling and refuge service. “We’re delighted to enter into this partnership with DV Connect,” said RSPCA Qld CEO ...
www.rspcaqld.org.au/news/mediareleases/pets_in_crisis_dvprogram.pdf - Similar pages
[ More results from www.rspcaqld.org.au ]

Women's DV Line (1800 811 811) :: dvconnect family + violence ...Pets in Crisis - Domestic Violence Program. RSPCA Logo. An innovative partnership between dvconnect and RSPCA Qld. No-one should feel like they can't leave ...
www.dvconnect.org.au/about/projects.asp - 15k - Cached - Similar pages

Women's DV Line (1800 811 811) :: dvconnect family + violence ...dvconnect: domestic + family violence service queensland ... in collaboration with RSPCA QLD has established a pet foster care program in Queensland. ...
www.dvconnect.org.au/dvline/default.asp - 27k - Cached - Similar page

Fair enough.. sounds like you are on the right track now.. sufficiently in the know to take it the next step...
Keep up the good work.
cheers

David
The whole idea of asking for your assistance was for you to draft a letter to them.
The over all message being that they need to do something about their role as leaders and the non action towards guidence regarding animal welfare.
As I said on the other thread at least Muslim Leaders have spoken out about Animal cruelty over all and put out a sensible and informative press release re live exports.
I mean really five times aired on 60 minutes and they sit in silence?

Saying oh we only care for people is discusting.
They could at least do some bible classes teaching our young their reasponsibiltys to Gods creatures.
As for the farmers we know they would appreciate hay and water before paid prayers.
For goodness sake David these lot are meant to be our leaders.
What type of leaders do nothing in regards to animal cruelty.
For that matter what type of people.
Its NOT good enough.
We are ashamed of our so called Church leaders.
Are you just going to except they do nothing for animals David.?

I have been following this with one eye PALE because I am a great fan of the Salvation Army and the work they do. I have known many in my life, and they are individually invariably the most caring, and collectively the least bigoted, people I have met.

It isn't particularly clear what you would like to happen, and why.

As far as I am aware, the Salvos provide a service predominantly to homeless and destitute people, with a side order of drug dependencies, domestic violence, gamblers and wayward youth. They are constantly short of funds to meet these commitments.

I would take an opposing view, if asked whether my donation should be spent on human beings or animals - I would insist that people took priority.

There are many charities dedicated to animals. Why can you not use those instead of harrassing the good folk at Elizabeth Street.

We too praise many of the Salvation Army Staff. Half of my own family worked to assist people with them in days gone by.
It should be clear to you that we are not against there work with people.
We are protesting their blind eye and lack of "leadership" to God Creatures.
If you are collecting public funds for drought stricken farmers one might think that dying animals would be part of that.
Why do you have to choose . Why cant they show leadership for BOTH. After all we are all Gods creatures.
They have as I said before remained silent right though no less than five docs on 60 minutes regarding barbaric cruelty.
They have no leadership in Churches towards kindness to animals.
D Hugh Wirth The X President of RSPCA address a press conference about this serious over sight here.
http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html
You might also ike to read the difference coming from our Australian Muslim Leaders.
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

A few words of leadership costs nothing.
And is the moral thing to do.
Saying you only look after people is slack slack slack
Shame on our Christian Leaders.
They have turned their backs on Gods creatures.
There is a clear link between domestic violence and Animal Cruelty
Perhaps you could read one of the many books on the subject.

We intend to start our own church and educate the public and our children to include Gods creatures.
When WE fund raise for drought will most certainly will include the farmers stock and help as much as possible.
Here are some of the good people following Gods Work
They DO help with feed and water and they DONT take one cent in wages.
Praise the Lord. There are churches working with these people. Yes!
just not the Salvation Army that all.
Real Christians

http://www.aussiehelpers.org.au/

Please note including fodder for starving stock Maddam>

http://www.donations.com.au/lcharity.asp?chID=4587

PALE the idea of 'starting your own church' is interesting.

I'll just signal the one major danger of strong personalities diverting the vision.. it happened in the Brethren.. split and sub split.. but usually a personality thing.

Bottom line, keep it simple.. keep it pure from ambition.. keep that first love which Jesus spoke about to the church at Ephesus.

Base it on the Word, rather than opinion.. and constantly seek the mind of God in the whole counsel of scripture. I'm so glad that we have the net these days. We can virtually goto Bible school from our home offices.

Well.. a full, well rounded, and comprehensive approach to our relationship with God in Christ and to our fellow man and the whole of creation is to be encouraged for sure.
blessings
BD

Amen Boaz

It is simply.
God is good God is kind.
God created the earth and 'all living creatures.
We will let you know how it goes. People have asked us many times before.
I do have some good news Boaz. Another three Catholoic Churches up here are now doing the blessing of the Animals on World Animal Day.
Also a fantasic Church Leader from Reach Out For Christ Steve Ryder who met with RSPCA CEO and myself a couple of years ago who saw footage of live exports is going to try to help.
We are welcome to go there anytime to draw attention to the animals plight regarding live Animal Exports and intensive Farming.
There are Churches helping the Aussie Helpers deliver fodder for stock too. They do it for nothing. Good People Boaz. I work for nothing. its an hounour to serve the lord and help his animals. They have been forgotten by the large part of church Leaders.
So I guess it all comes down to real people and real leadership and real Christians.
There is a fantasic Church Leader Minister in Melbourne who attended a meeting with myself and CEO RSPCA QLD to Senator Steve Fielding to ask him to stand up against Live exports.

We have been waiting four years for him to reply so there you go.- Another great Leader?
I dont understand why other groups have not broght this to the publics attention before.
its amazing Boaz as you move around talking with the public- they all say. Hey Yeh Thats a good question why are our church Leaders so silent about Animal Cruelty.
All In all its a good response and we asre only just getting wound up.
We want to do a TV add of Live Exports with that song telphone to glory> Do you know it?
Then list all the Churches who are standing up for Gods Creatures.
Then the ones who dont.
You can judge a Nation by the way it treats its Animals.
Mahatma Gandhi

Ok once they're saved, they should leave country areas. I'm not sure why they stay...maybe they have no choice?

But haven't things been getting worse for more than several years? Why persist with a sinking ship and then demand subsidies and welfare to constantly sink money to maintain their subsitense? maybe something I don't know like they are forced at gunpoint to stay... but some of them spray chemicals well above safety regulations so i have little sympathy for those people.

steel,
farming is a profession where skills are built up over the years often without academic credentials so equally rewarding careers may not be forthcoming. The average age of farmers is supposedly 56 so desire for major change is unlikely.

If you subscribe to climate change then the droughts have been caused by urbanites and they should be liable. If you don't then the drought is natural variability at it's extreme and since we need to eat it is a good idea to ensure that we are able to in the future.

Why else stay? close communities, no peak hour, can find a parking spot and no smog. It might surprise you but not everyone wants to share the city ratrace.

"Why persist with a sinking ship and then demand subsidies and welfare to constantly sink money to maintain their subsitense?"

I guess you could ask that question of the motor vehicle industry,
which receives billions in subsidies. Why not simply close them
down?

Steel
Yabby has answered your question do you have a comment in response.?
I would suggest you also take note of the sub standard products that have flooded the country as the Nationals have betrayed our farmers.
Not to forget the disasters under most Labour states.
You might not think it’s such a good idea for farmers to pack up and leave the land either if the day comes that Australia suffers from sanctions.
Do not think it can not happen here.
Some choice ah- Eat vegetables and meats imported from countries that use humane excrement [in its natural state] as fertilizer or starve. That’s while you can get it of course.
The farmers are the backbone of our country Steel. We have about one third working to supply a food bowl to the rest of us.
Now if the Salvos were smart along with other Church Leaders they would start getting involved in Free Range Farming and call upon Woolworths and others to work with them.
There would-be so much money involved they would not require grants from The Governments.
It certainly would be a wise move to ensure food will be available to people in a few years down the track.
Salvos Agricultural Christian College of humanity and Humane Resources.
Food for Thought.
We are doing similar with the Australian Muslim leaders.
Let us all pray our own Christian Leaders will also plan for our peoples future.
Hello Yabby and Rojo. It wouldn’t be the same without you both.
Yabbys adventures to be continued soon.

PALE - on this one, you can technically be right, but in practice, be wrong.

The Federal Government offers drought assistance to areas classified with 'Exceptional Circumstances' while the Queensland State Government offers assistance to Drought Declared properties. Both systems use different classifications, but nevertheless, both do contribute hundreds of millions to the problem.
I'm not sure about other states, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have some kind of assistance program as well.

So why do I bring this up?

You are dead right in that farmers would probably prefer stock feed to gifts at christmas time.
The thing is, the Salvation Army's resources will do next to nothing. That's the pragmatic view - compared to the millions of dollars being poured into the drought programs, the Salvation Army could empty all of their coffers tomorrow, and within a week it would have been consumed and the situation wouldn't have changed much.

So yes - while buying stock feed is more practical, the Salvation Army has always focused on the human element - and if Farmers are pushing themselves to afford feed, the christmas gifts are designed to brighten an otherwise depressing day of the year during drought.

If the salvation army switches to feed, they will be providing a drop of funds in an ocean of a problem. Better they try to serve the emotional needs at christmas time.

I see what you are trying to do and it sounds pragmatic, but I honestly don't think it's the way to go.

PALE - also, I notice you damning the Nationals again for abandoning the farmers without citing examples - in a previous thread I pulled you up on it as well, pointing that this 'abandonment of farmers' was more due to the fact that the National Party is ineffectual than a desire to attack farmers.

As I recall the chief example you pull up was in relation to National Party policies in regard to live exports.
I get that that is your particular wheelbarrow to push, but in a wide array of agricultural issues, I think you do yourself no service by pretending it's the paramount concern, and whatever stance the Nationals have taken on live exports is representative of their greater intentions.

The Nationals do try to defend farming interests, they're just not all that good at it. It's the Liberal party which is keen on free market economics regardless of the effects on rural Australia.

Live exports are not the be all and end all of the rural sector.

If you're going to claim the National party are the ones responsible for damaging rural Australia, please provide more examples beyond your narrow focus of interest, and more specifically, prove that the Nationals were voting in favour of these negative changes.

Otherwise, I'm assuming you're just disgruntled because they're not on board with your live exports concern, an issue which contrary to your strident posts, does not have united consensus within the rural sector.

paleif,
I agree with TurnLTR comments about the salvos and think I said something along these lines last time this subject was raised. The Salvos are well regarded in human welfare, and I don't think their charter should be clouded. Church groups really don't have a lot of sway these days and are comprised largely by the elderly who are not usually in a position to help. You are right though to bring the plight of animals to their attention, they shouldn't be ignored.

I'd check your figures re: amount of people working to supply food etc. there are approximately 400000 people directly employed in agricultural production and would be surprised if those indirectly employed(middlemen and processors etc)amounted to 10%.

Good evening all.


Firstly turnrightleft. Hi from pale you said-

The Federal Government offers drought assistance to Drought Declared properties.
Pale replies. – Yes correct and that’s the public money. We say give the public a say.
Turnrightleft said-
So why do I bring this up?
You are dead right in that farmers would probably prefer stock feed to gifts at Christmas time.

Pale replies

Yes your correct.

Turnrightleft said
The thing is, the Salvation Army's resources will do next to nothing

Pale replies

If public donations are split council to council across regional areas and the farmers all get to choose’ what they prefer’ it will.

Mind you nobody to charge wages and administration costs in cases of exceptional circumstances. Not for PAID staff to visit and pray anyway.
Turnrightleft said
. That's the pragmatic view –
Pale replies.
Its called leadership.

Turnrightleft said
So yes - while buying stock feed is more practical, the Salvation Army has always focused on the human element - drought.
Pale replies-
Rubbish. Its SO wrong. The don’t even slightly understand the phycyie of these proud people.

The Salvation Army and most other church leaders have never listened to the farmers. Once more they have done diddims in any way towards having a reasonsibilty to Gods Creatures. Lets leave the fund raising for droughts out of it for a moment.
Now tell me what the church Leaders have done in regards to speaking out about intensive farming of those poor bloody chooks in pens so small they cant spread their wings. Did they say ONE word about the cruelty of live exports?
It costs them "nothing" to speak out about Gods creatures being mistreated.

I am going to post a media release put out by Australian Muslim Leaders.
We ask the Salvos and All other church Leaders
WHERE`S YOURS!?
The song God Is watching From A Distance will in the future be on TV with questions to Church Leaders.

Church Leaders DO NOTHING even if it doesnt involve money to speak out for the most innocent- Gods creatures.
Shame

Rojo Hi.

I wont get into lost jobs or figures on this thread just yet. Same to Turnrightleft about the old Boys club the Nationals.
For a while I want to concentrate on comments from other posters about attitudes towards leadership reasonsibliyts of Church Groups. Call it moral if you like.
People either agree they have a clear duty to at least speak out or they dont.

I am not cutting you short just been a long day.
To The Salvation Army and Other Church Leaders I will offer you a olive branch. Why dont you come on this link and support our movement to improve Animal Welfare.
Here- Click On Halal Kind meats Where you see the Dove.

http://www.afic.com.au/

Christian Organisations have worked co-jointly overseas with Muslims so I dont see why you cant help us contact farmers regarding this programe.
Wouldnt it be something to see our Christian and muslim Leaders in Australia working side by side united to improve Animal Welfare.

Please consider.
You can judge a nation by the way it treats its animals.

And its leaders.

Gods creatures dont care who helps them
Together we should stand - People Against Live exports and Animal Cruelty.
All people must speak out especially our spirtual leaders

paleif,
My quibbling over employment numbers is pedantic, but to be credible you have to be reasonably accurate with everything you write, otherwise the risk is people overlook your more salient points.

PALEIF: "If public donations are split council to council across regional areas and the farmers all get to choose’ what they prefer’ it will."

No. It won't - not compared to the drought assistance program, which is already sinking much more money into the problem.

Rightrightleft.
Tell that to the farmers and dying animals. Many hands made light work. I am asking the Salvos to help kick off schools to sponser farms. Again that costs them nothing. We mentioned this before. Each school to fund raise and sponser feed for that farmers stock. We have offered to kick it off with our language school.
The more the better. The question for this thread is- should churches take a perecentage to distribute public donations?.
Should a member of the public donating five or ten grand have say how that money is spent and what they want it allocated to?
Should the farmers who are the people the public has donated to have a say.?
Or? Should we all be forcred- the public and farmers alkie to fund people to sit and pray with farmers? Should the Church include Gods Creatures and what do you think of church Leaders working together with other religious organisations as one- united to assist in time of national disasters/
And the bottom loine here is why have Churches been SO SILENT regarding Cruelty to Animals.
Remember the words turnrightleft spoken to me by the lady incharge.
Well to be perfectly honest wendy I have never even thought about the Animals?
There is the attitude of our chuch Leaders for goodness take regarding their responsibilty as leaders to protect God most innocent
I call a spade a spade and this is a shoven full.
There are some fantasic people giving their time to the Salvos for free.
Get rid of the high paid political heirarchy

Not Good Enough.
Churches MUST do their bit towards God Creatures.
Their track record is shameful

PALEIF: I also note you make some mention of the notion that drought assistance funding should be put to a vote.

Well... the government makes many funding decisions without putting to to a vote. How is this different?

And do you oppose this drought assistance funding? What's your view? It's already in place, yet you're suggesting that it go to a vote when many other funding issues don't?

I don't see how that would result in more assistance to farmers.
Seems odd to me - you're advocating that the salvos switch their funding to offering feed, yet you're suggesting a review of the fact that the State offers drought assistance.

The drought assistance funding actually is significant and makes a difference - the salvos funding couldn't in any signficant manner.

So if your suggestions panned out we would have what? A vote on drought funding, which could result in it being canned I suppose? And then a trickle of salvos funding which would do nothing?

That would result in farmers being utterly screwed and they'd abhor that suggestion of yours... if this is how you 'help' them, please reconsider your suggestions.

"Not Good Enough. Churches MUST do their bit towards God Creatures.
Their track record is shameful."

I've been following this post with no small interest. Paleif, firstly let me say I hate the live trade industry, but it's a tricky situation. I have a friend who is a live export farmer and he hates people who are against it with an equal passion as you hate those who continue the barbaric trade, however, with that said I'll explain why I've used your quote to open my post.

Churches will NEVER do anything to elevate the status of animals for one very good reason. The delusion of mainstream religions claims that only people have a soul. Only people have an "after life." Therefore, they consider animals beneath humans and whilst there are some notable exceptions ie: Seven Day Adventists, most religious organisations will always place the welfare of humans above that of animals.
Pale, forget religious organisations. If you truly want to help the plight of farm animals, might I suggest you start an 'farm animal' fund which takes donations of both food and money. eg: Money to buy bales of hay and feed stock. Organise or hook up with people prepared to lend their time and trucks to transport the food to drought stricken areas. It's happening already but can always be enlarged to cover wider areas.
I don't have a lot of money, but I'll always put my hand in my pocket to help out our four legged friends and wildlife. I will not however, give my hard earned money to perpetuate the myth or contribute to the wealth of religious organisations.

turnrightleft.
As said several times before Churches need to show SOME concern for Gods Animals.
Here are people who ae making a real difference. they ought to just support them.
http://www.aussiehelpers.org.au/
Not one penny goes in wages. All donations straight to farmers.
Public donations is different to the tax money that the Government treat as their own.
If I want to supply stock feed and put in fifty thousand or a hundred thousand dollars I want all that money going into feed. not wages for Salvos to sent some paid person to wspa a prayer.
I want each farmer to get say five grand of feed and water.
If I am giving the one hundred or say five hundred thousand that MY right.
I am sure the farmers would perfer it.
The issue here ius as I said before That according to their head person - They have never even thought about the Animals.
Pretty poor show all round.
Peter costello does not stop the oithers helping. I have not heaqrd of Peter writing the church Leaders that are helping the Aussie helpers say. dear Mr Church Leader hoew dare you help animals with water and feed.
He has not said- Dont help Animals. He has not told churches they cant help with feed and water when raising funds for a farmers appeal.
Peter Costello get the blame for everything. Hes a figures man. He knows if you save a farmers stock it help people.

Logically, after appraising your posts, I can't help but feel you're not really requesting what is best for farmers.

Assertion one: Salvos funds should be able to be used to feed stock.

My reply: I suppose you can argue that, but compared to EC and drought declared funds, it's a drop in the ocean. I reckon the salvos are better off focusing on what they do best.

Assertion two: Perhaps we should review the drought funding and vote on it.

My reply: Unlike the small assistance the salvos can provide, this funding is significant and meaningful. Your suggestion can only jeopardise it, harming farmers far more than the minor salvos funding would help. I can't express in words how much damage this would do, while your salvos suggestion, whilst nice sounding, would do nothing.

Assertion three: The church needs to show concern for animals.

My reply: Fair enough, but again, won't help farmers much.

The core of your arguments are weak - yes, you mention some reasonable ideas with schools helping farms and so on, but the idea that salvos funding could in any way approach the EC and drought assistance funding is laughable and contrary to the big picture.

What keeps getting ignored in these debates, is what the best way
to deal with drought is. Donated fodder is all very well, lots of
feel good hormones etc, but its not addressing the bigger picture.

Govts can't legislate for rain and weather predictions are not yet
that accurate. The best thing that can happen when drought looms,
is for farmers to cut numbers and destock, millions less mouths to
feed means more food for those carried over. Its too late once the
paddocks are bare and blowing and everyone is shedding tears.

Our meatworks could easily introduce extra shifts and channel that
meat into the global system. 200-300 workers can slaughter a million
sheep a year, thats a million kg of fodder a day saved. The real problem lies
in our inflexible employment policy in meatworks.
Why not fly them in from China or the Philipines, when they are
required? They can earn 10 times as much here, as back home and
would surely love to come. They can go home with full wallets and
boost the economies of their countries too.

But that kind of modern thinking is beyond politicians, unions and
others with vested interests. So the net result is more starving stock
on our tv screens, subsidies and now blaming the salvos.

Hey, we have to see the big picture, not the heart on your sleeve
picture.

Aime

Well if you were to throw your hat into the ring to take over the running of the Savos and work together with Yabbys advise along with the force of your members.

God would be served well. You might find these people some light at the end of the tunnel-

http://www.aussiehelpers.org.au/

Its people like yourself who do have a soul that keeps people like us going.

Yes Yabby you are absolutly right. So why dont they get in and actually do something to support just that.

Churches must be brought to heal regarding their arrogant lack of leadership to Gods creatures.
Farm Hand Appeals drought appeals given millions and not a "thought" - to animals.
Not only now regarding the cruel battery intensive farming of poultry birds. Nothing about pigs stuck in areas they cant stand turn. .
Not one word about the light sentences given in courts. Not one bible class?
We didnt ask them for funds Aime
We asked them for something else- Coopertation Leadership
To speak out about Animal Cruelty of all types.
May God Forgive them because I certainly cant.
fyi Aime-

http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html

Places can become desert. Farmers out there are destroying their own lives and frittering away public money by persisting where it's obvious to anyone that it isn't changing for the better. It's called cutting your losses. They took a risk in a changing environment (that they could have helped to worsen). The least they could do is take responsibility for those decisions, where possible.

Part of the problem is the idea that you should grow anything anywhere. I do not subscribe to this view especially when resources are limited. Why grow rice for example, in a desert? Rice is grown properly in countries with high rainfall and monsoon conditions. It's asinine to grow it where there are few water resources for what should be very obvious reasons. Open irrigation like that in a scorching dry country is ridiculous and should never have been permitted.

People need to grasp the simple fact that where resources are limited efficiency and wise management of those resources is paramount, as people are finding out slowly but also stubbornly refusing to learn. Politicians won't show leadership especially ones that win votes by popularism because those same stubborn fools will throw them out of office. Generations of farmers have applied farming principles of different climates to this continent with disastrous results for the land and river systems. It's a painful truth that farmers will have to face. States and political leadership have likewise been incompetent but I wonder whether they were trying to protect their political positions because of the farming industry.

As for the humane treatment of animals I have to say that is a political leadership issue like most progressive reforms. There is a lot wrong with state governments. They are rewarded for being populist and keeping the status quo, rather than for showing leadership and making difficult decisions. Like for example slavery/suffrage to which millions of people were opposed, political leadership is absolutely necessary. Perhaps as far as free range produce goes, photographs could be placed on the packaging to remind people that the decision they are making has consequences.

Yabby, I realise from your other posts that you have a real 'bee in your bonnet' about an apparent lack of employees for some meatworks. Maybe you were the owner of one that went broke through lack of employees willing to take on the job for whatever reason. I hear what you're saying. My response to all of this is just why we need to breed so many animals in the first place.
The USA, Australia, Brittan and much of the Westernised World has come to expect "meat on tap" as it were. When I was growing up in the late 50's and early 60's, we had a lamb roast once a week, Sunday. We ate barely enough to feed a sparrow because it was damned expensive from memory. We ate cold lamb on Monday, cottage pie made from what was left on Tuesday, sausages one other day of the week, fish & chips Friday and the other two days, we ate whatever was in the cupboard or fridge.
Now, people eat out, they cook roasts two or more nights a week, they eat the finest cuts of beef, pork spare ribs....you name it! Australia is an arid country by definition, yet we're trying to cram more and more livestock into less unproductive areas and all in the name of appeasing the appetites of of our current culture of obese, demanding, whinging, Americanised consumers.
Does anyone seriously know how much water and fuel is used to get one large pig to market? I've seen it first hand and even 20 years ago, I was amazed by how much water went through a medium sized piggery. I'm guessing beef is little different and yet, walk by any street bin in a major city and see how many half eaten burgers, pies and other food items are thrown out each day.
We grow too much meat in Australia and all to feed greedy selfish humans. We're all part of the problem, but whilst "the World owes us a living" I doubt anything will change.

steel, "why grow rice in a desert"

Growers will use water for the best possible return. the fact is we've had so much water that high value users have had more than adequate supplies, until this year. Rice is an annual crop grown when water is available on general security licences. Permanent plantings need high security water because the trees/vines will die and it takes years to get back to commercial production. Rice fits the risk profile of a system with such extremes of drought and flood.

Incidently Australian rice growers grow more rice per litre of water than just about any other country. Most likely every other country.

If climate change is responsible then what caused the federation drought and the severe droughts in the forties and sixties. This just happens to be the worst in 'recorded' history. We have a history of extremes and we know we have just experienced an El Nino phase, like we have in the past.

Aime, all I do is state the bleeding obvious, as I actually have some
understanding of the meat industry. No point complaining about
starving livestock in a drought, if the solution is staff in meatworks,
to resolve it.

I remind you that we don't live in Nazistan. What people eat is their
decision and choice. Australia is a large meat exporter and it
goes to help pay for those trade deficits which you city slickers
run up and need to have paid for. Clearly you don't do much that
can compete on world markets, unlike our farming, meat industry.

Its fairly pointless complaining that farmers receive subsidies,
but then denying them the workers to deal with problems like
drought, or complain about live exports.

You are free to eat as little meat as you like, but just as you
have choices, so do others, in our free market economy.

The reason I mention the fact of labour shortages in the meat
industry, is in the hope that some of the unenlightened might
actually learn something, regarding an industry about which most
of them know pretty much zilch.

Aime.
If Yabby has a Bee in his boots about no meat workers so I. Its a pity you posted with a ring towards anti meat eating. It weakens the argument for the animals. I thought Yabby was kind not to repond by calling you a veggie or libber. City Slickers is mild for him. Church Leaders sick their noses in everything else- even the bedrooms so I think its a fair call to ask them to step up and take some reasonsibilty and speak out about Animal cruelty.

We the public give the Churches millions by way of donations and on top they get gifts by way of grants from the Government.Then they leg it off overseas to do some save the kids on the streets operation.
I say do the same thing here in our outback and regional areas and fix things for our aboriginal people and our own kids first before heading off the Maylasia etc. Not that I am against Christian and Muslim leaders working together its great. I just think they ought to do the same here.
Fix regional Australia and then bring trained slaughtermen to train our regional people in the hundreds of jobs that go hand in hand with the meat industry. Set up Ag Schools and Training plumbers and electrians etc in 'our outback.

Getting back to Yabby of course hes got a bee in his boots about meat workers. Hes trying to tell people who protest about live exports what they need to do to fix it. I spoke with the heads of wspa in Australia and UK on friday and I find the set rather unique.
Here Is food for thought Amie- Now wouldnt you think that blocking meat workers with skills to reopen abattoirs "ought to be on their list of things to protest."?
If i were the AA Libbers wspa lot I would be jumping for joy and waving flags of protest to prove my point.
Not a word.
So the old question remains- Are Animal Groups Political?
Are Churches political?
God is watching from a distance.

Steel Rojo have make good points. Re The packaging Steel the Humane Soceity in NSW Verna Simpson has introdcued the Humane Standards.
http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=105632&catId=100288&tid=100008&p=6&title=Free-range+meat

http://www.hsi.org.au/news_library_events/press_releases/N394_humane_choice.htm.


Now if Church Leaders indorced that it would show some leadership.?

That wont cost them a cent. I wonder if Senator Fielding and Neil would pose for a photo to launch it.

Good PR guys Church leaders posing with the Humane Soceity. Might even get me off their backs. They could teach it in churches and bible classes.
Now Heres something of interest Amie. We worked five years unpaid self funded[ except for our fantsic CEO in QLD] supporting RSPCA and Animals.
Invited at the time Dr Wirth President RSPCA to meetings with Muslim leaders in Australia and overseas to discuss live exports.

Set up a unique MOU with them to help animals.
Dr Wrth RSPCA President never even replied.- No interest!

PALE Applied to WSPA for Membership. Rejected by WSPA and Dr Hugh Wirth was President of WSPA at that time.
Dr Wirth is no longer President of RSPCA or WSPA however sits on Animal Welfare boards.

Getting back to Yabby screaming about abattoir workers- Thank God he is.
I dont here Animals Australia PETA Animal Libbers WSPA ot the others Aime- Do you?
I just thought I would WSPA that we find all these groups rather political.
I think we need Neil to pray for us for a fair go for Animals and Aboriginal people in Australia.
The Church leaders can pray and we will get the job done with the Muslim leaders.

PALE was opended to remove the core of political interfearance from people in the Animal Welfare Industry.
We work for Animals and dont mind turning over a rock or two- or three.
We need meat workers skilled in Australia and we will get them.
Steel you may find this interesting.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/aussiehero.html

Some will all be pleased that I am away for a few days. Taking Yabbys adventures along .
Enjoy.

Goodness Yabby! Were you refering to me as a 'city slicker'?

PALE. If my post had a "ring of anti meat eating" about it, let me tell you right now. Yabby could not accuse me of being a "veggi" or "libber" simply because I am not! Let me tell you how I work.....

Firstly, I am a meat eater, but I simply curb my desires to make it the main source of my dietary intake. I prefer to eat meat (and indeed all things) in moderation. I grow a lot of my own food taking only enough red meat to keep my iron levels at an acceptable level. I do not have my freezer packed with every type and cut of meat imaginable such as has become the norm for many I know. I tend to think unkindly of such behavior.
I eat as I have to. I pillage neither the land or the meat markets and should the soil provide for me, then I provide for the soil. I am not an animal libber as your post suggests you believe I am. There's not much I can do alone for the poor suffering animals that are herded into meatworks and smell the blood of their own kind running red on the concrete floor and all because of human greed.
My post was meant to represent my view that western nations produce much more than they can use without great wastage and it doesn't stop with meat. We over produce everything and for what good? Simply to prop up an unsustainable growth/wealth economy. Meat markets are no different.

Pale, I wish you well in your fight to stop the barbaric trade of live exports and I'm sorry my posts elevated your blood pressure. It told in your writing. One thing I'm not sure about however after reading back through your posts.....who the heck is "Neil"?

Dear Aime
I thought I'd drop back to this thread, thinking it had run its course, but surprised to find a considerable level of activity and interest.. good stuff all of you.

Just a point though, you mentioned Churches won't do anything for animals because they don't have a soul? Hmm I wouldn't make it such a theological issue.. I can't give you a truckload of chapters and verses for this, but the tone and impression I gain from the Old Testament, (where there is much more reference to the agricultural side of life) is certainly not that they should be neglected.

The main principle from Genesis (apart from the human fall) is the stewardship of all life.

Personally, I would not 'not' worry about animals simply because they are said not to have a soul. I don't see how we can fill our lives with the Love of Christ and then limit that love to our fellow man only. I think it touches all life, including animals.

PALE.. I know Steve Ryder I'm happy to hear of his continued work and involvement. If I remember correctly Steve had quite a dramatic conversion and 'colorful' background b4 he found Christ.

blessings to all of you.

David said....."Personally, I would not 'not' worry about animals simply because they are said not to have a soul."

David, I've come to expect your comments to hold a much higher regard for both humans and animals than some religious people I know and have known.
I believe that there's a triangle of stewardship that when combined, sustains all of life on Earth. They are...stewardship of the planet, of all it's creatures and lastly, humans themselves. No doubt David, you would add a fourth dimension, that of belief a in God.

This entire business of breeding copious amounts of animals simply to supply greedy humans who, since the advent of the oil age, have bred like maggots on a chop, is nothing short of appalling. As with everything humans do, they've thought only of money and greed. They've displaced natural inhabitants from THEIR land and claimed it as their own. As a result, they've unbalanced the forces of nature temporarily, but she's mounting her defenses to fight back with a peak in easily obtainable natural resources and Global warming/climate change. The balance WILL be restored.

David, no matter the amount of dissent people throw in your direction in some of these posts, you remain steadfast and controlled. That alone places you high on my list of decent people I've come across and I might add that they're very few and far between. Nice to see you weren't harmed on your Friday afternoon excursion to the law courts.

Hello All

Aime I agree David has got something- he knows that. Mind you it took me ages to figure it out because a lot of his past threads are quote from the bible.
Not that there is anything wrong with that until its used as a a rock to climb under.
Neil is the man in charge of the Salvation Army. We have raised the question to them about collecting money from the public knowing full well that many public think it goes to buy fodder.
In response a add was put on TV saying- WE ALL KNOW HOW TO FEED SHEEP? There is a classic example of shear arrogance.
What we need to do is figure out how many seconds that part runs for and at what cost to the public who donated.
They could have said in the same time. THE SALVATION ARMY FARMERS APPEAL DOES NOT GIVE MONEY TO TO BUY FODDER.- or words to that effect.

So lets talk for a moment about what they did put on TV and why.
" We All Know How To Feed Sheep"

Whats behind that TV add and why?
We all Know How To Feed Sheep.
How does that help the animals and farmers?
We all know how to feed sheep?
Surley given Neils explanation of the guidlines by Peter Costello thats got to be getting close to mis use of the donations.

David I opended this thread for you to be given a chance to help the animals. We all have a reasonsibilty. Steve is an ok guy yes. However nobody can do this alone.
Your perfect because you speak the lingo. Please dont do the christian thing- Say a few words from the bible and run.
This is wrong and I need a good letter to print in all the papers.
Between yourself and Amie I think you both could put something together suitable if you dont mind.
I wont write it because they will claim I have a personal beef

PALE, sorry for not replying sooner. I've been temporarily "press ganged" into a month of full time work which has severely restricted my Internet time.

PALE, I know little about the Salvo's or how they administer their finances and distribute them, although I once knew a Salvo family, but didn't even realise it for a couple of years until they told me. They weren't 'tin rattlers' and I never saw a Salvo uniform anywhere in sight. I also had a good friend work for them for several years and apart from providing woeful pay, they were otherwise good employers. I don't know how to express my views on what you're proposing and how I think the Salvo's would react to anything I could write or do, but I'll try by saying this....

In the World, there are lots of organisations ranging from small to large. Some are special single interest groups such as local anti wind farm people, anti battery hen groups, pro-lifers, ect and they're all raising important issues, but there are so many groups and simply because there are so many people on the Earth raising so many issues. The Salvo's work for their cause which is helping the less fortunate of the human species. I doubt very much that your group or anyone else including myself can change their focus to any great degree. If I truly thought I could help, then I would, but I really don't think you can sway them to the animal cause. Much better to forget them and pursue a different organisation. Ok, the RSPCA for some very strange reason hasn't put their hand up, but there must be others.

My bet is that the issue of farm stock will blow over at least for the next few months thanks to a little rain falling, however, I'll continue to wish you well with your cause.

Thanks Amie
This is not so much about the Salvation Army but as allChurch Leaders. The Red cross the Salvation Army are just a few who collected money from the public for farmers.
Farmers want feed for stock- We thought we should point out they prefer produce than prayers.
All Church Leaders have the number one reasonsibilty to stand up for God Creatures- especially the innoccent that cant speak for themselves.
If the Muslim Leaders of Australia can speak out about Animal cruelty including live exports why not our Christian Leaders.?
RSPCA should be doing something. Somebody told me they have millions tucked away.
Perhaps when you get time you might be able to write to them
I have written to RSPCA National on many ocashions on many issues.
Also I was not refering to good Salvation Army familes but all their well paid leaders.
I am basically disgusted with NFP organisations who take huge chunks from the public donations to pay themselves.
That includes Animal Welfare organisations.
We will not be backing off our exposhure of the slack lack of efforts to speak out for Gods creatures by Church Leaders.
We hope to run a national tV add as soon as possible.
They will be hearing much more from us.
Let the public be the judge when they view the footage.
In the mean time it costs Church Leaders NOTHING- Not one cent to speak out about the cruel intensive farming live exports and many other issue.
I dont hear them. I have never heard them. Do you hear them?
Its Shameful as they hide behind their grants.
Do you remember what the Lord said about people like that?
Good luck with your work Aimie.
Your comments are vauled.

Yes PALE, church leader should have a responsibility to stand up for all creatures, but, because they regard anything that is NOT human as being a lesser species, they will always put the needs of humans before that of other creatures. Their sole aim is to buy their way to heaven by whatever means and to heck with animals. They are not custodians of the Earth. In fact they could be blamed for much of what is wrong in the world today. David is different. He follows much more closely the life of Jesus Christ and for that I admire him, even though we hold opposing views of God as a whole.
However, I'm sure most sincere church leaders and indeed, church goers would be appalled at how some animals are being treated in Australia. What the rest of the world does to animals doesn't bear thinking about, but when it comes to various church run welfare groups, it's all about humans. That's where any 'spare' money goes. Unfortunately, funding, donations etc often goes towards organisational payments including wages and operational costs (running cars, paying utility bills etc), therefore I seriously doubt you'll get anywhere with the churches. Many religious organisations have become increasingly greedy and much of that greed has gone to spreading their brand of faith to often ignorant people. In short, they don't adhere to the very book from which their dubious "faith" was taken.....the Bible.
I could write a book on the subject. I've studied it in the past like an insect under a microscope and found organised religion to come up wanting rather badly, that's why I say forget them and concentrate on groups more closely tied to animal welfare. Unfortunately there's not much I can do from here at present. Thanks to the Internet, awareness of various groups and organisations espousing animal welfare have been brought to the fore, yet it's also unfortunate that most of these groups are situated in capital cities and meetings are well out of my territory, otherwise I might be tempted to become more involved.

Yes PALE, church leader should have a responsibility to stand up for all creatures, but, because they regard anything that is NOT human as being a lesser species, they will always put the needs of humans before that of other creatures. Their sole aim is to buy their way to heaven by whatever means and to heck with animals. They are not custodians of the Earth. In fact they could be blamed for much of what is wrong in the world today. David is different. He follows much more closely the life of Jesus Christ and for that I admire him, even though we hold opposing views of God as a whole.
However, I'm sure most sincere church leaders and indeed, church goers would be appalled at how some animals are being treated in Australia. What the rest of the world does to animals doesn't bear thinking about, but when it comes to various church run welfare groups, it's all about humans. That's where any 'spare' money goes. Unfortunately, funding, donations etc often goes towards organisational payments including wages and operational costs (running cars, paying utility bills etc), therefore I seriously doubt you'll get anywhere with the churches. Many religious organisations have become increasingly greedy and much of that greed has gone to spreading their brand of faith to often ignorant people. In short, they don't adhere to the very source from which their dubious "faith" was taken.....the Bible.
I could write a book on the subject. I've studied it in the past like an insect under a microscope and found organised religion to come up wanting rather badly, that's why I say forget them and concentrate on groups more closely tied to animal welfare. Unfortunately there's not much I can do from here at present. Thanks to the Internet, awareness of various groups and organisations espousing animal welfare have been brought to the fore, yet it's also unfortunate that most of these groups are situated in capital cities and meetings are well out of my territory, otherwise I might be tempted to become more involved.

Opps. Sorry for the double post. I often wondered how people managed to do that and now I know.

I don't know what this has to do with your cause PALE, but let me tell you, while I'm posting, about a story from the Australian Nursing Journal concerning the plight of one farmer during the drought.

This particular farmer was so distressed at having to watch his cattle wither away that one evening, he loaded them onto his truck and the next morning took them quite some distance to a stock market hoping he could sell them to anyone who might offer them a better outcome. As he backed the truck up to the loading ramp, a chap came running up to him to tell him it was no use unloading. Nobody would take them away, let alone pay money for them.
In a final act of desperation, the farmer took the unfortunate animals back to his property, drove out to the most remote area of the farm and shot the lot. He then committed suicide.

I suppose the moral of this story is that both the animals and the farmers need lots of TLC. It strikes me as rather sad that the condition of both the animals and the farmers mental health cannot be nourished together. It's been a bad time for all involved. I can only hope the drought is over, but that's not a given just yet.

PALE, this is a not a very good medium over which to communicate. Do you have a web site perhaps? So many things words can be used in emails and posts just like these and so much can be easily taken out of context. I had a major argument with one of my sons simply because he misunderstood the meaning of one of my emails.
Thanks to my mistake of double posting, this is most likely the last time I will be able to respond to this article in the next 24 hours. Please take that into account.

Amie.
I hear your a very busy lady. I hope you dont mind but I just sent a copy of your posts to our four lawyers who are also members of pale.

Put in its most simple form- We would very much like contact with you.

I was asked to relay a message to you from some choked up big men

As follows.
Dear Amie we wish you would- "Write a book." You have a gift with words and at anytime if you are interested to assist we will do whatever it takes to provide as much funding as possible and support to you.
We would welcome you on board as a valued member of our team.
Please talk to Wendy and we hope to meet with you one day.
End Of message.,

So Amie your truth and post about the farmer has really hit the boys- [us too]
Our telephone number is 0755392369
Our web addresses-
http://www.livexports.com/
You may see HKM on this thread.
http://www.afic.com.au/
my personal email address is
wendy.lewthwaite@bigpond.com

Amie- Do you know if the farmer had a family and if there is some way we can help them?
Yes I have double posted a few times but I am not sure how it happens.
I also understand you can not post for 24 hours and you will be a busy lady for the next four weeks.
Still we would love to hear from you.
Your correct about not wishing to put all up on the net.
I dont think they changed the laws regarding animal welfare because of people posting on the net to be honest.
The other groups dont tend to comment too much although they do post on different subjects which is great.
We tend to be the black sheep I guess telling it how it is but what the heck- Somebody has to.
You may like to do us the honour of signing our petition-

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/Petition.php
We are all looking forward toreading your comments if you have the time.