The naiveté in Foxy’s comment that “both sides of politics” agree on the geostrategic claims over the Ukraine, when “both sides of politics” means Abbott and Shorten, is breathtaking, but seems par for the course on this thread. America’s geostrategic side (seeking to thrust NATO into Russia’s face) and Russia’s (seeking to keep NATO away from its face) are the two big-league sides that are facing up. Surprise surprise, the Lib and Labor minnows are both on the ONE side. Honorary Yanks the both of them.

If we have the slightest gratitude to the millions who died fighting the war against REAL aggression and saved OUR bacon, we might give a thought to the side of the people who live on the spot and the victory those wonderful Allied soldiers and Resistance heroes won for the world, expressed in the postwar UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [#1]. Look at what it says at the very start:

Article 1
1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.
3. [Principles governing implementation]

So Lest We Forget, why not focus on insisting that US-Russian negotiations be about how to secure this right for the captive peoples of Eastern Ukraine, through properly supervised plebiscites? As was belatedly done for the captive people of East Timor?

#1 http://www.ohchr.org/en/profesosionalinterest/pages/ccpr.asp

Dear Emperor Julian,

The facts are these:

What does matter is that Russia has breached the
territorial integrity of another country. It has
invaded a part of another independent country -
the Ukraine, and absorbed that part - the Crimea
into the "Greater Russia."

The "referendums" to join up with the invading
state were taken after the invasion. It matters not
that the soldiers of the invading country removed
insignia from their uniforms. It does not matter how
farcically unbalanced the referendum questions were,
it does not matter how jubilantly crowds in the
capital of the "Greater Russia" greeted the
"new era," of expansion. What does matter is that
this breach of the territorial integrity of another country
has started the new era.

We are returning to the pre-World War II behaviour of
some nations. It is a start of expansionism, ignoring
all norms of international treaties and agreements.

It is too easy to brush aside the events that are
unfolding, events which have in the past involved most
countries of the world into endless conflicts and
horrific wars.

Shadow you might see SteeleRedux and Poirot as "paid up members of the (fortunately) small band of looney left whingers" a notion which is totally erroneous, they are both thoughtful and intelligent posters. You however have shown yourself to be a supporter of the corrupt criminals of the New South Wales Liberal Party and the lunatic we have to suffer in the form of a pathetic Prime Minister. Shame on you, where is your integrity?

I see Foxy has ducked the question about the right of the people of the captive nations to determine their own future by a supervised referendum, as East Timor belatedly did. Indeed the persistence with which Foxy is ducking the questions about the Ukraine may even surpass the assiduousness of her ducking and weaving about the core message of the Koran.

No it is not a question of the referenda that did happen which left room to hide behind "they're faked" as she does. The plea I posed, for the rights of the actual people who live there, was for the US-Russian negotiations to be about finding a verifiable plebiscite for the captive people under international supervision. Such votes have been held many times in many places in the past. Not rocket science. My implication is that if the Yanks or anyone else stood in the way of the people exercising this then their reluctance to respect the right of the people is spitting in the face of everything the Allied soldiers (including OURS) and Resistance heroes gave their lives for.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“The moment you start attacking me I know that you have exhausted your pitiful reasoning ability.”

Oh please don't start a victim chant after all that you have flung about.

All I said was you could well have a life sized cut out of Tony that you are very fond of. It was hardly an attack.

As to exhausting one's pitiful reasoning there is never a clearer indication than when someone bangs on over an entire post addressing everything but not the point put. If you are done then just say so and move on.

Dear Paul1405,

Thanks for the dip of the hat but not always true I'm afraid.

It is a dangerous game Abbott is playing if he thinks he can re-position Australia as a middle ranking power, presumably a military power at that. We have long been seen by many, simply as an American lackey, always at the ready to do Uncle Sam's bidding. That in itself has negated any possible influence on a diplomatic level that we could have exerted in world affairs. But to take our committed servitude to a new level on a far broader military scale is playing with fire and fraught with danger for Australia both domestically and internationally. Put simply Australia has no military business in such places as the Ukraine, Iraq or Syria.
Where we can do some good in the World is to concentrate on regional affairs in the Asia/Pacific sphere. In that way we can maintain stability for ourselves and at the same time do some real good for others. While Abbott is off in faraway places playing Tonto to the Lone Ranger, Barack Obama, there is every possibility things will get out of hand in our own back yard. I would think places like Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, East Timor, The Solomon Islands, Fiji and Vanuatu should be of far greater concern to Australian than The Ukraine. Dealing with those nations may not gain Abbott the Worlds adulation that he so desperately craves, but the price of real success might be to remain unseen and unsung in the background of world affairs.