What Abbott would like you to believe that our economy is losing ground.
The exact opposite is happening which stunned Big Joe at his last address which he had a pre prepared speech written out for.
Our GDP is still rising which shows growth is happening. Your statement says not necessarily a livable wage. Can you explain that in more detail.

I've received penalties most of my working life. And to say you tend to rely on them, as part of your normal salary package, is quite true. On the other hand, it's also fair to say a person who performs shift work needs to be properly compensated for the anti-social effect, that type of work has. Both upon the health of the worker, and the deleterious effect it has upon his family life ? All such considerations are quite reasonable and valid.

That said, if the author (RUNNER) who produced the original topic is correct ? Then all penalty rates should cease, for the reasons he has quite legitimately articulated. Moreover, any future employment package, should no longer attract penalty provisions for the irregular hours and the ad hoc days the worker's are required to perform their duty. Notwithstanding any adverse social or health implications it may have ?

Is this fair do you think ? Personally, the number of Christmases I've missed with my family because of work, is extraordinary ? It's true, I'm certainly not alone in this respect. Yet the proposition that RUNNER has raised, is both rational and well founded in my opinion.

Who then deserve to receive Penalty Payments, and who don't ? Or should those who do the hiring and firing, hire those people to do a particular shift full-time, as is done for some vacancies, in the United States of America ?

' Runner, your close to the action what does the average Sinday God Bod pull at the end of the week, down there at the temple? 5 grand an hour tax free? '

Paul I would imagine on average far far less than the high priests of the gw religion who mostly thieve from the tax payer. On the other hand most ministers receive somewhat moderate salaries due to which comes from members not tax payers.

579, my interpretation of a livable wage, is what is needed for one to live on.

Now, you must then interpret the words 'live on' because there are situations whereby some expect to live beyond their means and expect to perform a low skilled job and receive their opinion of a livable wage.

The bottom line is that if you can't earn sufficient in your current job to sustain your living expenses, then you have to either find additional work, change your job through better skills, or reduce your costs. But you can't just assume that a business can coaf up extra just because you are doing it tough.

This is preciecly what has happened and, although affordable during boom times, those times are gone and it's time to readjust our thinking.

Now if you truly believe we are in great shape, may I suggest you ignore your source of information and associate with real people with real jobs and real lives. You may learn a thing or two.

'That said, if the author (RUNNER) who produced the original topic is correct ? Then all penalty rates should cease, for the reasons he has quite legitimately articulated. '

o sung wu

no I don't think all penalty rates should cease and I think that is totally unreasonable. I suspect the reasons some employers have deceitfully used 457 visas is because its the only way they can afford to get jobs done. I raised the issue for discussion because Mr Abbott has not got the guts to say what needs saying in this regards. He has shown himself brave and competent on illegal arrivals however timid on IR even though every honest person knows that its getting harder for many to find jobs. Unemployment is far worse than say receiving a 25% loading for public holidays rather than 100%.

runner, Churches get a considerable amount of money from governments including costs of restoration and other payments. Given GW has only been in the public domain for a short time I doubt it has received more funding than religious groups.

On the subject of penalties I fail to see why a person's labour is deemed of less value than capital. I worked shift work including 24/7 arrangements and it takes a toll. The compensation is penalty rates. I would imagine many employers would not find suitable people to work those hours without an incentive.

Arguments involving the agreement of individuals was oft quoted in discussions about workchoices. This argument presumes both parties are on a level playing field ie. power is shared and allows for win-win arrangements. In the workplace power resides employers except in niche skills areas. Even during Howard's AWA era, agreements were made enmasse with little input from employers. It was, sign or no job. I know I was employed by one organisation on a supposed 'individual' agreement of which there was nothing individual about it.

I can see the attraction for greater flexibility too. For example if a person says can I get Fridays off and work Saturday instead for the same pay, why can't this be accommodated if it suits both parties. I suspect arrangements like this already exist on the quiet. The trouble is when this becomes normalised and expected as part of a wider culture. The issue is complex and I would hate to oversimplify.

People argue that you can just look for work elsewhere or find another job, but this is naive when unemployment is rising and where you depend on a good reference from a previous employer. And when you have a mortgage to pay off.

Of course there are limits, especially for small business but many business crying poor because of penalty rates are raking in millions in profit.

If we ask people to give up weekends or nights and work rotating hours that impact on health then I think recognition is apt in a civilised society