When is Mr Abbott going to have the guts to produce more jobs by changing the ridiculous penalty rates having to be paid on weekends? Fancy being scared of the word 'workchoices ' because the ignorant public voted in the economic vandals 6 years ago. Many people being left out of work because of the lack of guts by the Government. Everyone knows this even though the hugely paid union reps trying to protect their obscene power and wages. I am first to agree CEO wages are obscene but most small business owners receive no such thing.

I happen to receive penalty rates and they are the only thing that makes the job worthwhile to do. 19.60 an hour doesn't cut it for the anti social hours and believe me its only people that don't work these hours that have the hide to blast penalty rates try it then see.
And if we do drop penalty rates who benefits Harvey Norman and big retails that pay there staff crap ATM anyway. No keep the rates and let some Aussies that actually work for a living make a few extra buck's and let the fat cats cry some more.

Dear Runner,

Mr. Abbott may be a chicken, but the root of the problem is the absurd power of the state to prevent two consenting people from making a private deal between them despite the fact that nobody else is being harmed.

Had the state and its government been found on consistent moral grounds, then Mr. Abbott would have no say in this matter, hence it would not matter whether he has courage or not.

Dear Aussieboy,

<<And if we do drop penalty rates who benefits Harvey Norman and big retails that pay there staff crap ATM anyway.>>

Just to clarify my previous post, Harvey Norman is not a good example of what I had in mind, because it is a company rather than an individual. There is nothing immoral about the state imposing conditions (such as penalty rates) in return for incorporation - if you don't like these conditions then simply don't incorporate with the state!

Dear Yuyutsu

I am still a bit confused by your argument are you talking from a small business point of view ?If so you must employ people on the week end WHEN YOU make the most money
You also mentioned work choices that almost killed the working man and his family
Quick story when work choices was introduced Myself and the rest of staff where marched into the bosses office one at a time and told to sign the agreement or leave the company a pile of agreements all the same sat on his desk and he told me because i had been with the company for 5 years he was powerless to do any thing the directions came from head office to be no exception to the agreement

Dear Aussieboy,

You write that you were employed by a company - in that case, what I wrote in my first post does not apply to you.

Further, you described a case of coercion, which is in fact criminal and should be referred to the police. I was only referring in my post to honest consensual contracts, which yours was not.

I do not write from the point of view of small business or large business or any business: I am writing from the point of view of individual freedoms which the state has no moral right to interfere with:

If two people want to strike a deal between them, which includes (perhaps among other elements) person A doing some labour for person B and person B giving some money to person A; and assuming that this deal is freely entered between them without coercion, also assuming that no other person is hurt by that deal, then nobody else including the state has a moral right to order them not to carry out that deal. In fact nobody even has the right to label the one an "employee" and the other an "employer".

If however, one chooses to incorporate (because they can thus receive some benefits from the state such as lower taxes and limited liability etc.) then I see nothing wrong with the state imposing conditions on their company in return, including the condition to pay penalty rates.

Whether penalty rates in themselves are a good idea or not, I have not given it thought and therefore have no particular view about. All I say is that even if they are, it is still immoral to impose them on individuals against their will.

I believe penalty rates are too high but even more high, infact obscenely high are the pay rates & benefits for public service bureaucrates.
If we want to get some fairness back we'll need to ensure that no ALP Government is elected for at least 15 years unless of course it is an ALP Government with no actors & lawyers & pseudo yodellers & ignorant academics.

You put up a good argument in a perfect world and I would agree with you
But in my experience and i am guessing with the overwhelming rejection of work-choices most bosses/employers are greedy money hungry pigs that if it was legal to employ 10 year old kids and whip them they would.
Maybe we talking about 2 different sides systems here, I am very much at the bottom, My industry is now the lowest paid industry in Australia. We have a very weak union movement. At the other end of town maybe be different at my end if you can get a job hang on to it.At my age 50+ I am just grateful to be working. You would also probably have a different opinion on the new retirement age. I don't know if we would call it class or situation.But in closing WE need protection from governments and employers who else is their. Enter the unions.

Aussieboy,

My wifem in her then job in age care/home nursingm was ripped off under the umbrella of Work Choices, along with the other employees, by the company that employed her.
Some compensation has been received but the Union is still fighting for other outstanding claims.

This company held meetings with staff to discuss wages and conditions, then ignored what they had agreed to and presented the workers with take it or leave "agreements"; they then deliberately underpaid allowances particularly travelling times.

PLease define what are "Obscene Penalty RATES?"

Or are you saying that it doesn't matter what a person works, whether it is night time, or public holidays, they should only be paid as much as some one who works, monday to friday 9-5.

'PLease define what are "Obscene Penalty RATES?" '

Wolly B

It is obscene when you have workers and employers agreeing to conditions but not allowed to open due to having to pay what the employer can't afford.

The problem is a lot more complex than the penalty rates, the cost of dentists, tradesmen have to be tackled just removing or lowering the penalty rates will just effect some of the problem.

When someone can fly to the Philippines for a 1 week holiday and get a new crown and have money left over, cheaper than getting one from a dentist in Australia there is something wrong.

There are a whole lot of occupations and service providers that need to be made more accountable for what they charge.

Attacking ONLY penalty rates will just help the rich get richer.

I would be doubtful if many shops etc pass on the savings the bosses will just get higher salaries or the owners just pocket the money.

Dear runner
If your agreement doesn't cut under the award wage go for it I say.
But if it does don't try to make your employees subsidize a weak business,And i don't mean to sound harsh with that comment If your struggling you have probably asked yourself why are you doing this, Just passing it down the line won't help, all it will do is create a underclass that goes to work but still can't afford basic's.

Dear Aussieboy,

<<most bosses/employers are greedy money hungry pigs that if it was legal to employ 10 year old kids and whip them they would.>>

But fortunately it is not.

<<Maybe we talking about 2 different sides systems here>>

Why not - one for individuals and another for companies (and other incorporated bodies)!

<<You would also probably have a different opinion on the new retirement age.>>

I believe there should be no such thing as retirement age, but is for each one of us to decide when we want to retire and hopefully we would have saved enough to live comfortably by then. People tend to live beyond their means (and in particular to bring children to the world when they cannot afford - raising a child properly in the West costs around $1M, which most people don't have), then complain they don't have any left.

This doesn't mean that you receive nothing when old: you should still receive negative-income-tax, which is uniform for young and old, rich and poor, those who work and those who are lazy, etc. This way no one should starve and this way, anyone should be able to negotiate with their employer because they know that come what may, they wouldn't starve.

I wrote more about it in http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15791#273170

Personally what concerns me more than adequate income, is when people out of hunger and desperation are made to perform unethical work against their conscience (for example to follow their boss's orders to cheat customers or harm the general public and the environment). This unfortunately is very low on unions' priority-list and since ethical standards are highly personal, unions who by their nature think collectively, are not equipped to deal with ethical questions.

In what occupation/job are there 'obscene penalty rates'?

I would imagine they must be truly awful jobs if they have such high rates?

I have worked with penalty rates all my working life, as a nurse.
I can tell you now that there is no way any of us would have agreed to work weekends without penalty rates!

Suseonline,
Isn't it funny how you latch onto that one yet you totally ignore the other one about bureaucrats being paid way too much.
Are you one of them ? No wonder you're so opportunistic in your questioning.
Those obscene penalty rates are in many industries with the hospitality industry being affected the most. It's become unaffordable.

If penalty rates are unaffordable for the hospitality industry, why do they exist. You want the worker to take the hit for a glut of coffee shops. That is backward thinking.

the number of young unemployed seems to be left out of this debate. Yes everyone can selfishly demand more and in the end it leaves people out of work. I would rather see a 20 year old earning $25 per hour on a weekend than sitting around shooting up because he can't earn anything due to an employer not being able to pay $40 per hour.

btw sooner or later the myth that teachers and nurses are not well paid will be busted.

The wages for a twenty year old is $16/hr.
The demand is not there for so many. It is better to consolidate than flog a dead horse.

Dear runner
$25 an hour is what pay is with penalties these guys are crying about
otherwise 18-19 an hour

My, my, my, what do we have here? The 'Usual Suspects' singing off the same song sheet. Since the year dot this mob of apologists for the boss have been bellyaching about how the "worker has it too good!". These conservative blowhards would have the rest of society, it never includes themselves, reduced to a begging bowl mentality.
As penalty rates often applies to low paid workers like Shop Assistants and Hospitality these 'shop till they drop' types want it both ways. They want the convenience of their leisure pursuits, shopping, dining, drinking, holidays away etc, etc, all done from the own grossly fat pay packets, whilst they would see those that serve at a subsistence level. If its not penalty rates, its holidays, sick pay etc, etc, all in the view of these blowhards as undeserved worker benefits the boss can ill-afford. If these conservatives had their way the economic clock would be wound back to the 19th century and the conditions for workers that prevailed at that time.

yep Jeff Kennet was right in that most who demand obscene penalties have never employed anyone, usually on the public trough or worse still unionist who preaqch the victim game while filling their pockets on cleaners money. Not surprising.

least we forget..those on 19..bucks
dont get sick DAYS PAID HOLIDAYS LEAVE LOADING ETC
THESE BY BEING CASUAL WORKERS.. are doomed to never own their own homes/doomed to rent forever..IF PEOPLE TOLD THEM THE TRUTH..THEY WOULDNT BE MAKING YOU YOUR XMASS DINNER.

SIMPLY BY TRYING to TAKEAWAY PENALTY RATES IS RAPE
the big money days are the weekend/just for doing most of the work..they deserve double..[im so sick of this reality]..if you dont want to give EVEN A STRAW TO THE DROWNING..HOW SICK ARE YOU?

WE AT THE FEAST..WHINE THAT THE Servant's steal our crumbs
and because they never got to buy a home..they will cost heaps more later/when we subsidize..THEIR PENSIONS BY RENT assistance/till the day they die in the poor house

im liking the new guy..good topics
YOU CAN BET THIS GUY IS A GOOD WORKER..[EVEN IF UNDERPAID..NOW HE WILL GO FAR]..MANAGEMENT MATERIAL..

Yeah Runner, Jeff Kennett would know! There is no bigger snout in the public trough than Kennett's.

A contributing factor to the following headline is wages, if penalty rates are lowered the expenses and charges of others should be lowered. (including blood sucking politicians, lawyers,dentists, tradespeople, etc)

Sydney and Melbourne rank among the top six most expensive cities in the world to live, according to the Economist's latest Worldwide Cost of Living Survey.

The bi-annual survey, carried out by the business magazine's intelligence unit, ranked Sydney as the fifth-most expensive city in the world, with Melbourne one spot behind in equal sixth.

Singapore took the dubious honour of top spot, followed by Paris, Oslo and Zurich.

Perth and Brisbane shared 21st spot while Adelaide came in at 37th.

The survey of 131 cities assessed costs by comparing more than 400 individual prices across 160 products and services.

These included food, drink, clothing, household supplies, rents, transport, utility bills and recreational costs.

Currency fluctuations and rising prices can have a big impact on results.

Lets have a look at these obscene penalty rates!
Take Woolworths Supermarkets one of Australia's biggest employers. What do they pay.
In Victoria which is like all the other states Woolworths run a 24;hr 7;day operation. For 38 hrs a week a full time adult employee is paid a gross wage of $783.58 or $20.62/hr. For this the worker is required to work a 7 day roster Monday to Sunday with hours spread over a 4 week cycle. How do these workers fair on the weekend gravy train?
Penalty rates
Saturday 10pm to 12mn 25%t
Sunday 12mn to 6am 100%
Sunday 6am to 9pm 50%
Sunday 9pm to 12mn 100%
Mon-Fri 12mn to 5am 30%
Ordinary rates apply Monday to Friday 5am to midnight
and on Saturday 5am to 10pm.
Woolworths pay little in the way of penalty rates, almost nothing on a Saturday and mostly 50% on a Sunday.
The pay rates for children at Woolworths are 16 years 50% of the adult wage, at 18 67.5%.
Naturally this is a SDA union negotiated agreement, those in small shops can rely on the much inferior award conditions, if they are lucky enough to get them paid. For most shonk shop keepers it s more like $10'hr causal kid, and pay your own tax.
p/s For the vast majority of Woolworth's shop employees getting that 100% loading would be like winning Lotto.

PHYLLIp/quote..<<..Singapore took the dubious honor of top spot,>>

yeah i noted that too
aint it too clever ..we link our base petrol price
to their super blended..retail price..via the SINGAPOO.. 'price parity' scam,..WE DONT PAY YANKI PRICE PARITY/lol\EVEN THOUGH WE BUY IT ALL IN YANKI DOLLARS..

SIGNOp00R peTERO PRICING PARITY..is aN OTHER pure greed scam...[jail them politicians/public servants.. who conceived it like that/just to revenue raise higher taxes from it..plus..then a higher gst on top

other scams abound..[LIKE RUDDS 4 Billion plus to give investors- assured rental income subsidy..for 20 years/to give 'govt workers..a closeby their workplace residence..

[now those actually occupied ARE Occupied mainly by foreign students getting Subsidized education/HOUSING..while we send our dumbed down kids go to WORK 24/7 AT macdonalds

Dear Philip S

Nice bit of reading that to bad it doesn't take into consideration cash in hand payments, I have first hand knowledge this is true, in Canberra most coffee shops restaurants and takeaway shops employee staff cash in hand, Would you guys like to know the no.1 Chinese restaurant in Canberra visited by prime ministers sporting stars and the like pay their staff cash. Must be a plan to make Canberra cheaper to live.
So if its one kid working part time who cares but it has developed into an underground network the stores/shop encourage the kids to stay on the dole then pay some miserable amount of money even given time off if have center link appointments. Now tell me how a honest business is suppose to compete. Businessman killing business man but blame the worker

Aussie boy, the anti work choices campaign was the biggest beat up ever taken to an election and was defeated only by the unions big buck fight against WC's wages and conditions that EFFECTED A MINORITY.

The result was a government, entrenched with unionism and a minister who's sole objective was to destroy so many working arrangements Simply because she had an axe to grind as they (labor) were filthy that the libs had wound back some of the ridiculous unfair dismissal laws that were in many situations, unworkable.

Evidence is plain for all to see as we went from a prospering nation in 07 to a nation crippled with debt, lacking in confidence and headed for a downturn of what can only be described as a train wreck.

The other VERY IMPORTANT FACT is that the wages and conditions enjoyed by many today, have been born from the imbalance between demand and supply and now that the demand has slowed, the unions are persistent in their aim to protect these conditions, even though the circumstances have undergone a dramatic shift.

Put simply, we face the prospect of being the highest paid, under worked nation if the unions get their way.

Times have changed and unless our workforce is provided with the flexibility to change as well, the result will be devastating for many businesses and employees alike.

If you don't believe me, just watch this space because this is precicely what I predicted would happen when those economic vandals took their axe to IR.

Runner "
btw sooner or later the myth that teachers and nurses are not well paid will be busted."

Well I doubt that Runner, but I'm sure that the notion that religious clergy should be paid anything at all will be busted long before teachers and nurses have their wages cut!

Do you think costs of goods will come down appropiately when your 50% pay cut comes into effect.
The cost of Electricity is determined by the activities on the axs, and is not subject to cost cutting.
Get rid of the carbon tax and there will be no difference, in the cost of power. The carbon price is virtual money and does not exist.
No matter how much you want to cut wages we will never compete with 3 rd world wages, imports will continue to flood in.

Runner, your close to the action what does the average Sinday God Bod pull at the end of the week, down there at the temple? 5 grand an hour tax free?
Spot on Aussieboy, so many of these so called small business operators are nothing but shonky rip offs, recken' we all owe them a living. The tax rip offs, the ripping of their workers pay, rip off their customers wherever they can, rip off their suppliers by dodging their bills. Not all crooks are in jail, some are behind the counter!

LOOKS LIKE MY SEARCH WAS TOO REFINED..[all it got was lotsa jokes]

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=WAGE+Rate+priests,RABBI+HOLYMAN&

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=WAGE+Rate+priests

SO THEY Seem to get..20/35 per hour
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes212011.htm

OF COURSE THAT'S A FLAT RATE/INCLUDES THE no sex bonus
and has that extra weight/clause..that..if we deceive OTHER..
THAT LAYS STAINS..upON OUR SOUL..but if you want..i will work for half your 5000/offer..per hour..[what point were you trying to makE?]

FOR 100 DOLLARS PER HOUR 99.999.% WOULD SELL OUT bits of THEIR SOULS
ITS..just some value the bits..as more than adding UP TO..100%

Suze.....In what occupation/job are there 'obscene penalty rates'?

My industry, now while I will not tell you what it is, I can tell you the rates of pay are ridiculous and, should they be reduced I would fully understand as I have been in small business most of my life.

I am paid what is called an anulalised rate, because I work an on/off roster, working only six months of the year and making a motza. The down side is that if I am rostered on Xmas day, so be it.

My view on penalty rates is that they should be industry based and fir the likes of retail and hospitality, Saturdays should be normal time, Sundays time and a half and public holidays double, with the exception of good Friday and Xmas day.

I say this because the consumer is the one who wants these enterprises open seven days.

It is typical of governments to change one portion of an industry, while leaving others unchanged, and I take 7 day trading in QLD as an example.

Peter Beaty, despite having commissioned an enquiry into this, decided he didn't like the outcome and introduced 7 day trading without addressing important sections of awards such as altering the normal work periods and penalty rates.

Dear rehctub
I will put money on the table last financial year was 51k that is a rostered 48 hour week rotating shifts and i worked all public holidays and also did a lot of extra shifts and i do receive penalty rates.
Im not crying about it this is what real workers get paid , I hear of wages of 150k-200k this is rich people and if you don t think so try living on 35k because alot of Australians Do. So please any talk of cutting wages /wage restraint i.e. needs to be focused to the greedy boy's you know the one's complaining about welfare and penalty rates

Aussieboy, what ever wage rates are, the most important issue, even more important than living standards, is that the wages paid are sustainable to the industry/employer, otherwise anything else is irrelevant.

We are now facing an era unseen by the likes of you and I, as many of our businesses are now at a point where the costs associated with doing business here is unsustainable and wages are one of those costs. The amount one needs to live on is irrelevant in my view.

If we don't address this issue we will simply have no jobs, because although we've had a good run, the boom times are over, so we must choose to either adjust to a lower wage, or go without jobs.

Now as for penalty rates, there are several options, including time off mid week in lue and this is ome area that's need real consideration.

I am sure there are many out there who would prefer to do two ten hour days on the weekend and one eight hour day mid week, in return for a full weeks pay.

Who has the right to interfere in an arrangement like that when both parties are agreeable?

The unions stance at the moment is for no jobs, simply because they will not accept that what goes up,must also be allowed to come down.

What Abbott would like you to believe that our economy is losing ground.
The exact opposite is happening which stunned Big Joe at his last address which he had a pre prepared speech written out for.
Our GDP is still rising which shows growth is happening. Your statement says not necessarily a livable wage. Can you explain that in more detail.

I've received penalties most of my working life. And to say you tend to rely on them, as part of your normal salary package, is quite true. On the other hand, it's also fair to say a person who performs shift work needs to be properly compensated for the anti-social effect, that type of work has. Both upon the health of the worker, and the deleterious effect it has upon his family life ? All such considerations are quite reasonable and valid.

That said, if the author (RUNNER) who produced the original topic is correct ? Then all penalty rates should cease, for the reasons he has quite legitimately articulated. Moreover, any future employment package, should no longer attract penalty provisions for the irregular hours and the ad hoc days the worker's are required to perform their duty. Notwithstanding any adverse social or health implications it may have ?

Is this fair do you think ? Personally, the number of Christmases I've missed with my family because of work, is extraordinary ? It's true, I'm certainly not alone in this respect. Yet the proposition that RUNNER has raised, is both rational and well founded in my opinion.

Who then deserve to receive Penalty Payments, and who don't ? Or should those who do the hiring and firing, hire those people to do a particular shift full-time, as is done for some vacancies, in the United States of America ?

' Runner, your close to the action what does the average Sinday God Bod pull at the end of the week, down there at the temple? 5 grand an hour tax free? '

Paul I would imagine on average far far less than the high priests of the gw religion who mostly thieve from the tax payer. On the other hand most ministers receive somewhat moderate salaries due to which comes from members not tax payers.

579, my interpretation of a livable wage, is what is needed for one to live on.

Now, you must then interpret the words 'live on' because there are situations whereby some expect to live beyond their means and expect to perform a low skilled job and receive their opinion of a livable wage.

The bottom line is that if you can't earn sufficient in your current job to sustain your living expenses, then you have to either find additional work, change your job through better skills, or reduce your costs. But you can't just assume that a business can coaf up extra just because you are doing it tough.

This is preciecly what has happened and, although affordable during boom times, those times are gone and it's time to readjust our thinking.

Now if you truly believe we are in great shape, may I suggest you ignore your source of information and associate with real people with real jobs and real lives. You may learn a thing or two.

'That said, if the author (RUNNER) who produced the original topic is correct ? Then all penalty rates should cease, for the reasons he has quite legitimately articulated. '

o sung wu

no I don't think all penalty rates should cease and I think that is totally unreasonable. I suspect the reasons some employers have deceitfully used 457 visas is because its the only way they can afford to get jobs done. I raised the issue for discussion because Mr Abbott has not got the guts to say what needs saying in this regards. He has shown himself brave and competent on illegal arrivals however timid on IR even though every honest person knows that its getting harder for many to find jobs. Unemployment is far worse than say receiving a 25% loading for public holidays rather than 100%.

runner, Churches get a considerable amount of money from governments including costs of restoration and other payments. Given GW has only been in the public domain for a short time I doubt it has received more funding than religious groups.

On the subject of penalties I fail to see why a person's labour is deemed of less value than capital. I worked shift work including 24/7 arrangements and it takes a toll. The compensation is penalty rates. I would imagine many employers would not find suitable people to work those hours without an incentive.

Arguments involving the agreement of individuals was oft quoted in discussions about workchoices. This argument presumes both parties are on a level playing field ie. power is shared and allows for win-win arrangements. In the workplace power resides employers except in niche skills areas. Even during Howard's AWA era, agreements were made enmasse with little input from employers. It was, sign or no job. I know I was employed by one organisation on a supposed 'individual' agreement of which there was nothing individual about it.

I can see the attraction for greater flexibility too. For example if a person says can I get Fridays off and work Saturday instead for the same pay, why can't this be accommodated if it suits both parties. I suspect arrangements like this already exist on the quiet. The trouble is when this becomes normalised and expected as part of a wider culture. The issue is complex and I would hate to oversimplify.

People argue that you can just look for work elsewhere or find another job, but this is naive when unemployment is rising and where you depend on a good reference from a previous employer. And when you have a mortgage to pay off.

Of course there are limits, especially for small business but many business crying poor because of penalty rates are raking in millions in profit.

If we ask people to give up weekends or nights and work rotating hours that impact on health then I think recognition is apt in a civilised society

pelican very nice post

Yes Pelican, I agree with your post too.
And, it's nice to see you here :)

Nurses certainly would not agree to work night shifts or weekends without an incentive like penalty rates. It's bad enough to find staff as it is.

Cheers,
Suse.

One of my sons is a public bus driver, (great conditions thanks to the Union) Why should he give up his wife and child on a Sunday and not get rewarded for the sacrifice. The people who oppose penalty rates are the office types who work 9 (9.15 most days, always late, blame the traffic) till 5 (except Friday's po at 4.30 the weekends coming and that dammed traffic) Monday to Friday and take an Hour (and a half) for lunch!
I've worked with a lot of these anti union people, I'm not joking when I say their productivity is about 3 to 4 hours a day at best! Arrive late, every day 10 15 minutes, get a coffee, have about 4 of them a day, meet Doris downstairs for a smoke and a chin wag,often doing that, morning tea 20 mins, on the phone to mum, private call half hour about 3 or 4 of them a day. Lunch, never less than 1.15 to 1.30 (had to do some banking or something) leave early, gotta pick up the dry cleaning or some such things. And they are on 30 to 40 bucks an hour and I still don't know what they actually did/produced!
One said to me once "The only union I'd ever join is the CREDIT UNION!).

Butch I said our GDP is rising which means we have growth. Your favorite line is you think we are in great shape. How can we be in great shape when we have a guaranteed extra unemployment of 75,000 since Abbott and co have been there.
Penalty rates are there for inconvenience, if you can't afford it don't go there.
A bloke sweeping the floor in your opinion is worth nothing. I suggest you do it yourself. That is why we have a minimum wage.
Not even the coalition would come up with the ideas you have, your party is far more to the right than Abbott could ever be.

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with PR for this working nights. My problem is for the likes of weekends, when weekends are a normal part of that industry.

While I accept there should be some penalty, double time in many industries, just because it's a Sunday is where the problem lies.

Another area hit hard is the fruit industry, where the likes of strawberries cost more to harvest just because it's a Sunday.

If you don't want to work weekends, find another industry.

579.....A bloke sweeping the floor in your opinion is worth nothing. I suggest you do it yourself. That is why we have a minimum wage.

Utter rubbish, I have never said a bloke sweeping a floor is worth nothing, but, what I have said, is that a bloke who sweeps floors for a living can't expect to receive a wage that can support his family, pay his mortgage/rent, run the car and provide every day living standards, because this is a low skilled job and, if you are not happy with the wage, then find another job.

You people fail to understand that the most important issue here is affordability, and it's the very issue that is causing the mass exit of jobs from the likes of Ford, Holden, Toyota, Qantas and the massive (yet to be quantified) support industries.

We are simply burning the candle from both ends, but you just don't get it!

Unfortunately we have some here who can not see beyond their bank balance, these conservatives who are forever suffering from 'economic rationalism'. Such people see nothing in society, but a money driven economy, concerned with little else than markets and the pursuit of material wealth. You will hear the likes of Abbott continually referring to "the economy" but rarely, if ever, do they mention society.
Butch, you put forward the notion "that a bloke who sweeps floors for a living can't expect to receive a wage that can support his family, pay his mortgage/rent, run the car and provide every day living standards." In that rational economy I mentioned, that may well be true. However I much prefer a society of equality, where those with plenty, and most of us do indeed have plenty, help those that have the least in society.
The notation of a minimum wage was established nationally in Australia way back in 1907 in what was the 'Harvester Judgement' this judgement by Justice Higgins in the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration was not based on any kind of economic rationalism, but rather on the principle of providing for the minimum needs of the average man regarded as a human being living in a civilized community and not a wage that an employer would deem advantageous to himself.
In 1907, the Harvester Judgement set a minimum wage for unskilled labourers of 2 pounds, 2 shillings per week the amount an average working man paid for food, shelter and clothing – for him and his family. Butch you seem to want to wind the clock back over a 100 years.
Australia has a proud tradition of providing for its most needy and that is something I never want to see changed by the likes of these so called economic rationalists!

Great speech by Senator Scott Ludlam welcoming Tony Abbott to WA for the by-election.
Simply one of the finest speeches from a MP 'Telling how it is!" in years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqrfiEV8Gs

No doubt Scott is one of Australia's finest MP's.

I am not a fan of utube but that was certainly enlightening and very polite.

nothing like having your hatreds confirmed Paul.

Runner, hatred is from the religious bigots and conservative politicians.
A beautiful speech by Scott, could only be delivered by a GREEN.
How could WA not return Scott to the Senate? 344,000 hits with 100,000 added this afternoon. Fantastic! Gone viral Runner

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-senator-scott-ludlams-blunt-speech-to-an-almost-empty-room-goes-viral-20140306-348zx.html

The best I can do for the Mad Monk is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRn-Makj6t4

Tony is also viral. Lets hope we find a cure for him.

I'm a chef: I usually get two consecutive days off a week but they usually don't fall on Saturdays or Sundays: I work most weekends and receive the appropriate penalty loading.

I think it is reasonable: I don't mind missing out on leisurely weekends as long as I get decent amount of leisure time. But weekends are when all the nine-to-fivers go out for their leisure, so I have to work at least twice as hard on a weekend for only time and a quarter or time and a half pay. If I'm working twice as hard don't I deserve double time? I suspect a lot of cafes and restaurants make more profit on weekends - even with increased labour costs - than they do on weekdays.

I think the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the available evidence is that there is a direct correlation betwixt paying penalty rates and profitability: obviously the best way for restaurants to improve their profitability is to pay their workers penalty rates all the time XP.

Or maybe not.

But when a business enjoys increased profits just because it is a Saturday and there are more people out enjoying their weekends, why shouldn't the employees take a share of that profit? After all, it is their labour that generates the profit.

Where is the harm in sharing the profits with your workers? What harm will befall society if successful businesses pay their workers a fair wage for the duties performed? Fat Cats won't get any fatter than they already are? Well, my heart does bleed for the poor malnourished Gina Rinehart's of this world, but maybe it would better to nourish up the alley cats before we pay attention to the fat, contented toms.

Cheers,

Tony

Those "obscene" penalty rates are actually entitlements as negotiated and agreed with employers some time ago.

They are there to compensate for the loss of traditional family time (remember that?) during a standard working week.

Weekend and 24 hour trading was not introduced due to customer demand but because of the greed for more profit and the suggestion that the removal of such rates will result in more employment is ridiculous.

All it is about is more profit for the employer. Productivity is doing more with less - in this case, wages.

If penalty rates go, why not public holidays too?

Do we really want a society of a low paid underclass relying on tips to survive?

Nothing less than a return to serfdom or slavery will ever satisfy Corporate greed.

The reason for the rapid post WW2 growth in Western economies was due to rising and well paid lower and middle classes providing the economic stimulus required. It certainly wasn't due to the discredited "trickle-down effect" where the poor live off the scraps that fall from the tables of the rich and the only way to help the poor is to give the rich bigger meals.

There's also no point in effectively underpaying your own customers.

the majority..of the bailout funding [QUANTITATIVE 'EASING']..has gone to just under 1000 BIG Multinationals....YEP..PAID holidays will be next[most of the 'new'..jobs.. JOBS JOBS WILL BE Permanent casual]

its funny that pauls 2 pounds...THEN WAS TWO POUNDS OF GOLD
BY THE TIME I BEGAN WORKING IT WAS 16 POUNDS OF SILVER..AND TODAY..WE GET A PAPER DOLLAR..[FIAT paper../BY DECREE]..yep they want renter slaves that feed themselves[OR govt feeds them]..till some one wants a loyal casual..for the job..then go away/again

thing is 60 percent of .jobs jobs jobs is from small businESS
why cant govt 'bail then out'..[the thought comes to mind/

give a man a FISH..YOU FEED HIM FOR A day
teach a man how to fish..you feed him for life

school should teach the stuff that will help you survive
help people get job ready/GOVT SHOULD MARKET OUR SILLS AND TALENTS
SCHOOLS SHOULD SPECIALIZE/..public servants should be retrained every time they exceed 3 pay scales..THEIR PENSIONS SHOULD BE AVERAGED OUT..NOT all of EM..RETIRED ON THE HIGHEST PAY GRADE..[]AS THEIR BOSS RETIRES ETC]..

Its time we took back control over the public servant SLUSH FUND..WHERE THEY HOLD OUR 'PRIVATIZED SERVICES..PLUS TELECOM/COMMON WEALTH BANK ETC..and stop bailing out big business

YEAH DREAM ON

Wobbles asked;

Do we really want a society of a low paid underclass relying on tips to survive?

Sounds a lot like America.

The "small business" types never change, always bemoaning the worker as being too well off.
Butch I recall you once posted that it was justifiable for "small business" to rip off the tax system, something they are past masters at.

The latest is we have the worlds biggest blood sucking corporation, 'Apple' being exposed as a tax parasite on Australia. Whilst pocketing $8.9 billion in profits over the past 10 years, the blood suckers have paid almost nothing in tax. 'Apple' are just one high profile example of corporate greed, large and small. These corporate bludger's need to be called to account. This is nothing new, some years back I recall 'Mitsubishi' were also exposed as a tax parasite in Australia. What does Australia receive in return for hosting these foreign bloodsuckers, a few menial job? Well, if they are the likes of General Motors or Toyota they may get uo on morning and decide to pull the plug on those few menial jobs.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/tax-deal-how-apple-shifts-its-billions-out-of-australia-20140306-347x9.html

If you want to see whats really wrong with this country look at any news paper today and look for gina's comments this is from a women that daddy left his money to ( no problems with that ) but does that give her the right to talk about something she know's absolutely nothing about, Just how much money do you need gina ?

Aussieboy,
Jealousy is a curse and it looks like you have the curse.
As far as I can see all she said was work harder and get more.
Most people want to work less and get more.

dear chrisgaff1000
That's the point Chris work harder, not much more a lot of us can do to do that buddy I am already maxed out and I got my 50k wage last year
I really doubt Gina could of done my job and hours, Then tried to live on 50k a year ( a lot of extra hours to get ) 35k base without, Just to pay rent over that year cost almost 25k So please If you love to be told how to live by rich ignorant People go along believing that these people are looking out for you and Australia,
So please tell me chris how do i achieve this work harder part ?

Auusieboy,

Yep, spot on, The Old Gina, must have done a lot of O/T to pocket $17 billion. She who simply inherited daddy's billions, wants to lecture the rest of us with "Australians are living beyond our means" and taking aim at Australia's welfare system and its recipients, saying it is sending the country further into debt. By the looks of the pic in the following story Gina hasn't gone short of a feed lately.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/australians-living-beyond-our-means-says-gina-rinehart-20140307-34ar9.html

Chris it is not "jealousy" as you like to put it, but rather the hypocrisy of the woman. If you hold to that old protestant adage 'A fair days pay for a fair days work" then by any stretch who is this women to lecture anyone.
.

Paul1405
I am sure she does a "fair days work" it's just that the pay scales are a little different.

Earlier, someone mentioned restaurants and cafes. I would be very surprised if any here are not aware of the numerous closures of such businesses, and other small businesses over recent years. Large businesses have been failing too and the reputable ones with display floors and supplying quality services at a competitive price (but not the cheapest price) are not immune.

Ramped up immigration results in high population growth. Centrelink is booming. The public services and the victim industries are booming. Yet it is lack of customers that closes businesses, and the reasons for lack of customers are what exactly? Honest answers please, not just the same old political spin.

poor wages people can't afford extras
also companies that cheat tax get an unfair advantage to the ones that do the right thing

What if you paid less tax? Not taking anything from the needy, but millions could be saved if the hordes of professionals and public bureaucrats who rely on the victim industries including multiculturalism found some productive work to do and were not swinging from the guvvy teats.

At all layers of government, millions are wasted on populism - 'Should-Dos and 'Could Dos' - with the negative consequences that more taxes have to be raised (to be wasted), and people don't have money to spend or products cost too much (taxes).

I drove past an 'ethnic communities centre' today and fair dinkum from the heaps of nice new cars parked in the well-tended grounds it was the only booming (and guvvy guaranteed!) business within cooee. Around it the businesses are going to the wall, including the local food shops. The local public seem to be doing it tough too.

Obviously government and the qangos, NGOs and professionals that hang off it are the only thriving businesses. Government doesn't produce anything and it has the right to take whatever $$ likes from you, and always double- and triple-dips with its taxes. Then there is the cost of the regulations and over-government.

Maybe Big Sister Statism, aka the Nanny State, costs too much.

Where do I start?

Chris old salt, seen your favorite pin up girl on the telly this arvo. How's this for an idea, a worker like Gina who is obviously borderline morbidly obese should be forced to participate in a taxpayer funded program to get their weight under control. Then, maybe Gina could do that "fair days work" and boost productivity.

Beach "restaurants and cafes. I would be very surprised if any here are not aware of the numerous closures of such businesses, and other small businesses over recent years." Well, well, well...figures in today's SMH spending at cafe and restaurants up 11.9% in the past year. Blows a rather big hole in your statement. The biggest cause of small business failures is BAD MANAGEMENT, nothing to do with red tape or over paid workers.

"drove past an 'ethnic communities centre' today" Didn't pop in for a chat?

Some must be shell shocked with that YouTube of THE GREENS Scott Ludlam's hitting over 500,000. The reactionaries in the WA Labor Party are now talking about preferencing the Liberals. Some still need to wake up to the Labor right, take that pair of sellouts, Paul Howes and Martin Ferguson, a couple of Uncle Tom's if ever there were. These people do not represent the ideals and aspirations of ordinary working Australians, ready to embrace Abbott's 'Work Choices' at the drop of a hat. These grubs and other Labor sicko's are as big a danger to the rights of workers as any Abbott or Howard could ever be. Give me a Penny Wong or Doug Cameron over these fools any day.

"By the looks of the pic in the following story Gina hasn't gone short of a feed lately." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6275#184236

Paul I'm guessing that comment wasn't intended as a compliment referencing the healthy sheen in Gina's complexion.

I thought that comments about a woman's appearance were off limit's and it was always supposed to be about what they have to say rather than how they look. Is not the way it works? That seemed to be the rule behind claims of sexism when comments about Julia Gillard included any reference to her appearance.

At least Clives not the only one to face snide references to eating habits.

R0bert

R0bert,

Nothing to do with "compliment" it all about productivity. I am concerned that Gina may not be able to do that "fair days work" in her present condition. She is concerned about people on welfare not being productive and doing a fair days work. I want Gina setting a good example, in peak condition to show how productive she can be. Clive is also a concern. Tony is in shape, just check him out in his budgie smugglers, I can see him doing a doubler down the coal mine any day of the week! No problem. However poor Gina and Clive might not make it to smoko! Bill looks a right off as well, wouldn't make it past lunch, the 3 of em would pull a sick'y and go home for the arvo. Now that would be very poor productivity indeed, and we can't have that. We need these people in peak physical condition to lead by example. LOL.

Tony Lavis, while I agree you work twice as hard on weekends, what about quiet weekends when you have very few, if any customers. Would it be fair to suggest you get half your regular pay if you serve half the amount of people, or less.

In a perfect world, you should get paid by the volume of meals you create, on a bonus system whereby you get a very moderate wage, then bonuses calculated on the numbers yo pu produce. It's called, reward for ones effort, not appearance money as is often the case today.

In the modern day butcher shop, weekend sales can fluctuate by as much as 40%. so on busy days yournstaffing costs (as a %) are low, visa versa on quiet days. It sucks both ways.

wobbles, if you are really concerned about traditional family time, get rid of extended trading hours, especially Sundays. Otherwise there's an imbalance to that argument.

.....Do we really want a society of a low paid underclass relying on tips to survive?
Chances are it will come to that, besides, what's wrong with rewarding best efforts? Because at the moment, few see best effort was worth it, especially when the poorer worker gets the same pay rate.

rache, if you want economic stimulus, fix the tax system, because at the moment it's a deterrent. Last pay I paid $1800 in tax. A TT tax would have seen me pay just $100. The rest would have stimulated the economy.

Paul, if a business pays an extra dollar out for a worker, surely they are entitled to a dollar extra for themselves.

As for apple, a TT tax would have stopped that alleged rip off.

...So please tell me chris how do i achieve this work harder part ?
It's called education Aussieboy, it should lead to a better paid job.

....

Butch, 'Apply' that is why big business don't want a turnover tax, they might have to actually start paying their fair share. As for small business the cash economy is ripping anything from $5 to 57 billion from tax, something governments are loath to attack.
Sunday trading is booming, with so many working families, the big retailers in the regional shopping centers take in a motza on weekends, that extra dollar you speak of. As I pointed out earlier, the actual amount paid out in penalty rates by big retailers like supermarkets etc is relatively small, besides weekends is the time they bring in the kids on minimal pay.
Put it to the big retailers to stop Sunday trading and see the reaction.
A novel approach to wages there Butch. the new pay rates
$5 hr Sunny rate
$4 hr Cloudy rate
$3 hr Windy rate
Zilch its bloody raining!

"what's wrong with rewarding best efforts?" Nothing, Naturally the boss is the one to do the calculation.

"on a bonus system whereby you get a very moderate wage, then bonuses calculated on the numbers you produce. It's called, reward for ones effort" Again all to be determined by the boss, leads to a lot of effort and little reward. That moderate (low) wage soon becomes the standard for all.

Paul I agree that they are a bit of a joke but there is a serious side to my point. There is a big double standard from the left when it comes to using someone's appearance (or personal life choices) when making a point that's not strictly about them. Sidestep it if you'd rather not face it but the outraged cries of sexism when Julia's shape was mentioned by her opponents stand in stark contrast to the willingness to dig at Clive and Gina's shapes or the routine references to Tony's budgie smugglers.

Reality is it's mostly not sexism, just a way of having a dig at someone people don't like for some other reason. There are exceptions no doubt but the exceptions don't make the rule.

I suspect that most of us do to an extent apply our own values about body shape, personal life choices etc when we evaluate public figures no matter how we'd like to think we evaluate them. I don't have a lot of respect for the choices of those who could afford a team of personal trainers, dieticians etc. to allow them selves to run to what is a high level of obesity but that's their choice and given their wealth unlikely to ever be a drain on my taxes.

I'm more bothered by the tendency of the mega rich to grab more and more at the expense of others with access to a lot less individual power.

Digs about their appearance are sometimes very funny but not so much when some are more protected from it than others.

R0bert

Gee Paul, some boss must have done a number on you old mate. Nothing to do with your efforts of cause.

As for you comment about the cash economy, a TT tax will address that as well, because at some stage that cash hit the bank.

The one point you and others are missing is that we are headed for a train wreck as far as unemployment goes and, if wages and conditions are not allowed to move with the times, just lime they did during boom times, we risk being the highest paid non workers around.

As for your mention of sales increase in coffee shops, are you aware that a coffee should retail for about ten bucks now?

Increased sales means increased staff and increased costs, so unless your margins are right you as an owner are simply creating jobs, which is not what owning a small business is all about.

As for your mention of the majors and Sundays, there in lies the problem, as they employ kids, while small retailers can't survive with face book addicts.

Finally, with regatds to your perception of my idea of what wages shoukd be, I don't mind debating with people, but when you start depicting me as a slave driver, all I can say to you, is go .......yourself.

Hi Suse
I don't get to OLO as often as I would like especially over the past year. I heartily agree with you about nurses. Penalty rates recognise the extraordinary hours put in to ensure best patient care.

Aussieboy
You mentioned Gina Rinehart's comments. Hard to know whether to laugh or cry about her comments on welfare dependency given the amount of tax concessions, policy decisions in favour of mining companies (ie. environmental) and other forms of corporate welfare like export grants. Recent media reports reveal Apple paid 0.50cents for every $1000 last year, moving funds offshore to avoid taxes. They are not the only company doing so. These behaviours come from big corporations who are the biggest welfare cheats of all.

Sure, nobody likes a real bludger in terms of when people are capable of working. The mistake many Conservatives make is to presume the majority of Disability Pension and Newstart recipients are unwilling to work, can work, or through ideologial beliefs, that the safety net should be reduced. I think in the long term that sort of thinking fails for everyone.

Growing gaps betwen rich and poor affects the health and welfare of all. The bigger the gap, the less people spend and the economy slows. A fairer distribution of wealth through closing the gap ie. via a fair taxation system, as well as recognising the value of labor is a win-win. Many on the Right will disagree but I think their thinking is flawed.

(Apologies for the errors in my earlier post - failed to edit properly)

Dear rehctub
So following your conclusions we would have people with degrees sweeping floors and cleaning toilets,So who does this benefit? the wealth again now the upper paid jobs can have pay and conditions removed. welcome dude you just fell into the dream trap created to give poor hope that you can climb out of the slums into a mansion for working hard,The system allows a few to climb the ladder to keep the populace dreaming i.e lotteries
reality for every one winner is 1000000 losers
and rehctub i do feel for your situation i really do been there myself
Wait until some government policy ruins you business overnight and then you end up working for $500 a week and have to payout bills for 10 years as i had to,Which then puts you over 50 and then you see the real face of Australia,No house , no job , no future

The notion of rates of pay based on 'piece' work is nothing new. In fact its been around since man first put a shirt on his back. Outsourcing in the garment and footwear industries is common in Australia. Often outworkers are migrant women forced to work under appalling conditions doing piece work from home or in backyard sheds etc. The rates of pay are set according to the workers "production" often working out at less than $8/hr, even as low as $3/hr.

"but when you (paul1405) start depicting me (butch) as a slave driver, all I can say to you, is go .......yourself."

Butch you are a typical small (minded) business type. You have never shown any inclination to support the worker. How is the above any different from what you say;

"In a perfect world, you should get paid by the volume of meals (shirts, tiers, brick laid etc etc) you create, on a bonus system whereby you get a very moderate wage, then bonuses calculated on the numbers you produce. It's called, reward for ones effort, not appearance money as is often the case today."

You call it a perfect world, perfect for some, a life of low paid drudgery for others.
On you other point of "if wages and conditions are not allowed to move with the times, just like they did during boom times" Wages rates are subject to far closer control than prices, with minimum rates and agreements the subject of court rulings, in that way there is little in the way of wage explosions in Australia. So if wages are going to be controlled in boom times, then just because things get tough they shouldn't then be subject to market forces.

http://www.ethical.org.au/get-informed/issues/homeworkers-in-australia/

cont

cont

"Gee Paul, some boss must have done a number on you old mate. Nothing to do with your efforts of cause." What are you talking about Butch, because I'm willing to stick up for workers I must have had some boss like you do a number on me. I'm actually a qualified Engineer and have always been well paid and worked under very good conditions. I'm simply a person with a social conscience, those without one often think that strange.
Butch, some selfish people are only concerned about ways to make things better for themselves. Your tax idea, although it has merit, I'm sure your overriding reason for supporting it is because it would benefit you, first and foremost.

Paul, while I respect that you are a person with a social conscience, all I am saying is that the good times are over, and either we move now to save many businesses, or we loose out completely, because the only way we can turn our country back from the damage caused over the past two terms of government, is to make our businesses flourish. I know you don't see that, but then again I doubt you have ever created a job in your life.

The simple fact is that many small businesses no longer see the rewards worth the risk, because unlike average workers, who risk nothing, business owners often risk everything they own, yet the likes of you despise the fact that they too want to be paid

I have always believed that if a business owner pays out an extra dollar in wages, why should they not be entitled to one for themselves..

Surely that's not unreasonable.

The truth is, that today, a small business has a better chance of failure than success, and that's the beginning of the end because everything is about balance.

People have to realize we have demanded a seven day society, so now we have it, we must pay for it.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

Just for the record Paul, I was an exceptionally fair employer, always rewarding good effort. Also, unlike you, I was a risk taker, although I did see the writing on the wall, not before blowing half a million, but at least I had it to blow I guess.

Engineers and lawyers used to hate me, because in their eyes I was a dumb old butcher, having left school at year 10, yet what you guys called a wage, I called spending money.

Butch is blowing his own trumpet again. A business is not guaranteed success, a community can only soak up so much of what is on offer. Business will come and business will go. The wage has been set out by rational people, and if you can't make ends meet, you are in the wrong or duplicated business. There is no such guarantees as the proprietor making a profit for themselves as you are wanting at the expense of the worker.

Business in Australia, especially small business will be doomed if ordinary Australians keep getting tempted by cheaper imports. Australian small business too has to come some way towards ordinary Australians. Both need to make it very clear to the federal Govt of the day that Govt charges are getting ridiculously high. Start doing cash business & perhaps Govt will start to listen. Just because we have a somewhat more competent & responsible Government for now does not translate automatically into a morally right administration. There are greed & ego mongers in the coalition too not just on the left although not as many.
Pay your hospitality workers & labourers in cash if the Govt fees don't show any sign of abating.
Govt can be made to listen at any time not just at an election. If they can justify highly paid consultants for nothing then they can justify lower Govt fees to boost the small business economy too. Stop so much contracting out for nothing in return.

Paul1405, "SMH spending at cafe and restaurants up 11.9% in the past year"

If you had access to the article to make your claims about its findings and causes you could at least quote the link, please do.

The turnover and closure of small businesses, including cafes and restaurants is a fact that is easily checked by a tour of most suburbs.

"Pay penalty rates, but not through awards system
Judith Sloan, Feb22, 2014, The Australian

..
Today, penalty rates are a blast from the past. They reflect patterns of family responsibilities and educational engagement that no longer apply. Gone is the dominant model of families in which the man works full-time, generally nine to five on weekdays, and the woman stays home to care for children. Most children now stay on to Year 12 and more than 40 per cent continue on to university. Church attendance figures are way down and we can watch all the major sporting events from the comfort of our lounge rooms.

Trading laws have been relaxed and, while it is not quite 24/7 when it comes to the service industry, Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays are popular trading days with customers.
..
Indeed, the penalty rates are a dog’s breakfast, in part because they emerged from a number of pre-existing awards that were merged to create modern awards. In this process, penalty rates floated to the highest common denominator. The differences across these major awards really make no rhyme or reason.
..
Just as the days of the six o’clock swill are behind us, the days of inflexible, compulsory penalty rates specified in awards should also fade away."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/pay-penalty-rates-but-not-through-awards-system/story-fnbkvnk7-1226834107641#

'afternoon all...

Thinking hard about this dilemma of Penalty Rates, as I indicated in my earlier thread, I've received penalties all my working life !

Anyway, there's strong argument emerging, apropos whether or not penalty rates need to be discarded or at the very least, heavily curtailed.

In the spirit of fairness - for all those people who currently receive penalties for working odd hours or on public holidays etc., perhaps there is merit for Penalty Rates In toto, to be expunged altogether ! If that rule is to be applied, it must be implemented to include everybody, without exception. Including those alleged 'sacred industries' such as Firemen, Ambos, nurses, coppers, in fact everyone who's in receipt of penalty rates !

Instead of receiving additional payments (penalties) perhaps a modified system of increased pay (in lieu) might yet be trialled ? I really don't know ? I think it was SUSEONLINE said that Nurses DESERVED their Penalties; I couldn't agree with her more ! But consider for a moment if you will; if a waiter has to work Christmas Day, while his family enjoys their Christmas get together at home, isn't he just as entitled to the additional penalty payment, similar to that of Nurses ? It could well be argued too, that a Nurse's work is more highly valued to that of a Waiter ?

Why is it that lefties are so damn destructive of their own best interests? This hate of employers damages them much more than the employer.

If they had looked at the history of industry in the UK they could have easily saved our car industry. Even now, they are applying the same self destructive behavior to the mining industry. Africans & South Americans are only too happy to welcome our miners, driven out by excessive costs.

I ran tourist boats. It is a 7 day industry, & those who enter it should understand that. It is also requires long hours. Even after I brought in contract cleaners, the minimum day is 10 hours. Worse, you can't do the little chores at lunch time, when you are 40 miles out to sea.

This of course was well rewarded by overtime, & deservedly so. It can be very tiring being surrounded by tourists all day. What was not right was the penalty rates.

In most tourist areas all days are the same. You need to look at a calendar to know what day it is. To have to pay double time, or double time & a half, just because of the name of the day is ridiculous. It also costs jobs.

It was just not viable to run on weekends, except for a few at the very peak seasons. Instead of running through the season, with permanent staff, & attempting to build up a market, we ran with casuals, & some staff who wanted extra hours, just a few weekends.

Compressing the available traffic into less days was more profitable, but it was a waste of capacity to leave multi million boats on their moorings.

Regardless of penalty rates, many of the staff would have preferred week days off, when they could go to the larger cities for shopping, dental appointments etc. but could not.

Hasbeen,

"If they had looked at the history of industry in the UK they could have easily saved our car industry."

If you look at "recent" history in the UK, you'll find they're busily amassing Foodbanks....1,000 and counting.

"Numbers relying on Foodbanks triple in a year."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-24536817

"Rising living costs and stagnant wages are forcing more people to live on a "financial knife edge"

"The Trussell Trust said the problem was so severe that some people using food banks have started to hand back items that need cooking, as they cannot afford to use the energy."

""The Trussell Trust itself says it is opening three new food banks every week..."

Should we emulate the UK?

This is exactly what Butch and Hasbeen want. They are so far to the right it would make Abbott cringe.
They don't have middle ground it's all the way or no way.
This is what continually brings the noalition unstuck every time.
They don't learn anything, just stumble around like a mob of drunks.

Change is necessary. Judith Sloan's suggestions have merit. Logical, evidence-based and practical. She is not for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What other workable alternatives are there?

Poirot & 579,
You'd be quite happy then not to buy any cheap imports & pay heavily for for local services at exorbitant rates because you do want the staff to get paid penalty rates just because they work on sundays ? How far do you think your public service pay would last if you did that ?
I'd be more in favour of people working overtime because they need time off at other times & therefore work for normal pay. Like that fellow we had, he'd only put his name down for weekends & public holidays so he could earn twice as much for no more effort. That's called being a parasite.

Poirot, did you intentionally misunderstand? I was referring to the fact that the UK unions destroyed their own car industry, by pure bloody mindedness, 40 years ago.

As in Oz, hand in glove with a UK Labor government, unions made car manufacturing unviable, they expected subsidies to go on for ever. To the unions profit was a dirty word, & were too stupid to see that no profit, no industry.

They actively prevented their employers running profitably, & government subsidies came with strings, which further damaged company operations.

Brilliant technology developed by the Poms is now owned in a number of other countries, & the only car industry in the UK is foreign owned plants building cars for foreign companies.

It is the same kind of bloody mindedness displayed by posters like 579, who would rather be unemployed & broke, than have someone more intelligent provide them a job, if the job provider was likely to profit from doing so. These people are only employable in government sheltered workshops called the public service.

The same people then scream equality, & demand someone else pay their way. That is why the UK is such a goddamn mess. Last time, like Oz, they were luck. North sea oil got them out of the mess rabid unions & week government had made them, just as coal & iron ore have done for Oz.

That is where the luck stopped however. With still week government they went racing off down the welfare state path, gobbling up the oil dollars, buying yobo votes.

So now you know why the UK is a growing disaster zone, with nothing short of another north sea oil bonanza likely to stop the rot.

Study this history, we are on our way to repeating the whole catastrophe very shortly. Rudd & Gillard got us very close, start praying Abbott toughens up damn soon, we've probably only get one last chance.

Some seem to think penalty rates etc, are something the employee imposed on the employer. Far from it, conditions of employment through awards or agreements are something that are determined by collective bargaining and then ratified by an independent umpire. What could be fairer than that?
If you want to operate within an industry as an employer of people then you have to be prepared to run your business according to the law, and the industrial laws covering an employee's minimum entitlements is an award. I have come across more than the one employer who though "these award conditions are too generous, therefore I'll just make up my own." The one I particularly liked was the employer who on weekends rather than pay penalty rates, would send out for pizzas. I assume after 4 hours the worker got 1 1/2 slices of Ham and Pineapple and then after 8 hrs was entitled to 2 slices of Super Supreme, By the way the employers was a muti millionaire. Just didn't think penalty rates were fair (on him), must have though pizza was fairer.
If we allow the marginal types to start operating outside the law, because they cant or wont meet those minimum standards where would it end?

Beach the link for the 11.9% is www:-herald-in-my-recycle-box.com.au

Time for History lesson
I don't agree 100% with this post but damned he makes some excellent points
at least read first 1/2 of it
http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/capitalism-socialism-how-we-live-and-how-we-could-live

'''''''So following your conclusions we would have people with degrees sweeping floors and cleaning toilets,So who does this benefit

not sure how you come to this conclusion, but hey, we are all entitled to an opinion.

now im not sure where your $500 a week comes from, but it would appear you are working part time.

Paul....conditions of employment through awards or agreements are something that are determined by collective bargaining and then ratified by an independent umpire. What could be fairer than that?

Rubbish, Julia Gillard in 08' then employment minister had an axe to grind and she took some 400 awards (from memory) and condensed into less than 100.

My brother runs a restaurant and he rang me the day the new awards took place for his industry, saying they just added $100,000 to his annual wage bill. for nothing.

he had three rest at the time. one he sold, another he closed sundays (16 people lost the shift they relied on) the third he slashed where he could. the second one eventually closed as it became unprofitable. 25 lost their jobs

in fact, this year was the first year he closed on aus day holiday as he couldn't justify the $55 per hour for wash up crew. heis in one of QLDs tourist meccas, hasbeens old ground, the Whitsundays.

julia Gillard ignored industry calls and cost many jobs, but she, along with the unions didn't care a less.

the fruit picking industry was another hard hit. In fact, some towns suffered as the annual grey nomads no longer had their annual stop over because the bosses couldn't afford the Sunday wages.

in both these industries, the bosses and staff had arrangements that both were happy with, yet labor took an axe to them.

Why?

Il tell you why, because labor cant allow two grown adults coming to an arrangement that suits them.

Paul, it wasn't the law until Julia changed it.

'So following your conclusions we would have people with degrees sweeping floors and cleaning toilets,So who does this benefit

not sure how you come to this conclusion, but hey, we are all entitled to an opinion.
maybe just follow on from what you said you said education is the answer, I added what happens when we are all educated see how your argument is flawed yet or do i need keep explaining
ok $500 a week was after tax and are many many jobs paying this amount full time name a few . Truck driving security cleaning shop assistants
do i need continue?

'So following your conclusions we would have people with degrees sweeping floors and cleaning toilets,So who does this benefit
Aussieboy,
We have this scenario now & it isn't of benefit to anyone. Many people with degrees are not competent enough to do anything more then sweep floors & some are even struggling with that. It's a legacy of education for education's sake from the ALP. It has lowered the standard to an intolerable level. Sweeping floors is way more important than what some of these degree bearing bureaucrats do. We are getting penalised by paying them with our tax dollars.

Aussieboy, people have the perception that wages must be linked to cost of living, and to a degree, it makes sence.

the problem is, that wages must also be affordable to the employer, and at the moment they are not. Or at least they are headed that way, especially when penalty rates come in to the equation.

You see people place strain on local businesses because of cost of living increases, yet, they also buy imported goods to save money.

Now as far as PR go, i am in support of essential services attracting penalty rates, but not hos[itallity or tourism, or any other sector that the consumer has demanded they operate seven days.

i have witnessed the strain on small retail and hospitality seven day trading (with PR) has caused.

My thoughts originally were that if the trading day attracted PR, then a levy should be placed on goods and services sold. However, because the majors now have such a strong hold, they tell governments what they are going to do. So that would not work.

At the end of the day, if you want something (seven day trading) you have to give something, but the current system is a one way street and Sunday would not be such a busy trading day had governments not caved into big business who exploit salary workers and kids.

Dear sm your obviously a mouth piece for liberal party you you advocate education and every time liberal is in power education takes a massive hit.
Dear rehctub are you in QLD ? I know who manipulated your retail sector is up there, Its not Penalty rates my man its big corporations that are screwing you over and also the guys paying staff cash in hand
example of big corporations a major retailer you all have visited had restrictions on them about sunday trading I think it was a shop with no more then 5 employees could open sunday this retailer split his staff into 5 man groups and called them all small businesses and he got around Penalty rates by paying commission. That is what is killing small businesses my friend.

Hasbeen,

Yes, sorry, I did misunderstand, although not intentionally.

I'm not wholly up on car manufacturing, but seem to recall that Germany pays its car workers a reasonable wage and yet maintains a car industry...perhaps you can enlighten me more.

The other point I'd make, while we're comparing the UK to Oz, is that in the wake of the GFC the UK has had a Tory govt, austerity, etc...and now has Foodbanks galore and a debt to GDP ratio of around 86%.

Australia, on the other hand, under a Labor stimulus for the equivalent period, has low debt to GDP ratio of around 11 %.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/linkableblob/3727694/data/possum-graph-8-government-debt-as-gdp-data.jpg

Funny old world....

Butch, in 2008 Labor with Gillard as Minister put before Fair Work a request for Award Modernisation. I have read that request in detail, it was not a request for higher wages or better conditions for employees, but rather a request that a consolation of awards take place. In part it reads;

"must be simple to understand and easy to apply, and must reduce the regulatory burden on business"

"must be economically sustainable and promote flexible modern work practices and the efficient and productive performance of work"

"(must not) disadvantage employees"

"(must not) increase costs for employers"

How this impacted on your brother, I can't say, I don't know under what conditions your brother's business were operating prior to the implementation of award consolidation by Fair Work.

Please note when I said.
"conditions of employment through awards or agreements are something that are determined by collective bargaining and then ratified by an independent umpire. What could be fairer than that?"
You respond by jumping in and claiming Gillard done this, Gillard done that. When in fact the Labor government done no more than put a request before Fair Work which then had the task to act in the best interests of both employee and employer. what could be fairer than that.

Individual agreements are no more than a ruse to reducing wages and conditions. flexibility is a euphemism used for reaching that goal.

Dear Paul,

<<Individual agreements are no more than a ruse to reducing wages and conditions.>>

This of course is a misnomer, not because of such-and-such wages/conditions, but because companies/corporations are not individuals!

Individual agreements are between two individuals - and as such must not be restricted.
There is however nothing principally wrong about restricting companies, because companies are unnatural constructs, not sentient beings.

As for individuals who seek to offer their services to companies but require their own unique/unusual conditions, surely you don't want to deny them that ability, so perhaps the way to go for them is to sign a truly individual agreement with a specific person within the company rather than with a faceless entity.

(even better, the state should not encourage incorporation in the first place)

<<Butch, in 2008 Labor with Gillard as Minister put before Fair Work a request for Award Modernisation.>>

Throughout her career, Gillard was seeking to enforce her modernity in all areas of life, hammering anyone who does not find happiness in this particular lifestyle.

It seems that modernism has no place for individualism, but rather, in order to increase efficiency and the number of humans the earth can simultaneously support, it seeks to streamline our lives and turn us into cogs in the wheel. Yes, it makes us fatter, but fat ants are still ants.

Where do you get this stuff Paul? It appears that the agreements Ford Holden & Toyota were more about ridiculously high wages & featherbedding than reducing wages, hence the loss of those industries.

Poirot, it was not only the car industry, but most UK manufacturing industry. Nor did it seem like it had much to do with workers wages, but with union leaders bloody mindedness, & with some communist sympathies. Check out Red Ted.

Triumph, my favorite car maker, was destroyed by a 9 month strike. It effectively destroyed their US market. Workers have nothing to gain from such a strike, only the union leaders, & activists. It was not much later there were no jobs.

I saw the same thing during the building of the Gladstone power plant. The workers on a 3 month job had been on strike for 3 weeks. No increase in pay was going to make them better off after that, but union bosses wanted to prolong the strike for their own ends. It was not surprising they had Pommy accents.

Government subsidies did not help, they came with too many strings.
Rootes were given a grant to build a new factory, to build a new small car, the IMP. However they had to locate it in an area of high unemployment, Liverpool I think it was.

Workers had no car building experience, so the cars were poorly built, & the freight cost of getting bits to & from were enormous. Rootes were bought by Chrysler as they failed.

There was even active sabotage in some factories, which I don't think has got to here. A friend, a mechanic in a Morris dealership in London at the time, told me they had to pull the gearboxes out, & remove loose nuts & bolts placed in them to cause failure, before they sold the cars.

Continued.

Rootes gave a mate & I an IMP to run in the Bathurst 500 in 1964. The car had driven only 17 miles to my workshop, when we stripped it to prepare it for racing. We found a full dessert spoon full of iron filings in the camshaft, & all the bearings severely damaged by this swarf.

There is no way that much could find it's way into the camshaft, unless put there intentionally, with a small funnel. Those engines came from the UK that way.

It is not hard to detect the same level of hate, in some of the posters here, of left & green persuasion. I have often wondered if this hate comes naturally, or is instilled by manipulative leaders.

Germany was paying much lower wages at this time, & still do to some extent. Even when they had to import thousands of "guest workers" to overcome labor shortages, the workers did not go mad with their demands.

I may be kidding myself in thinking there is much more of a partnership mentality between workers & management, which benefits both sides.

This may not last, now that many German companies, automotive & chemical in particular, are building new factories in the US to take advantage of the lower energy costs, the local US market, & the LOWER WAGES.

This could sour German workers, but perhaps the east German experience, & the Russian bogeyman on their doorstep will prevent that, to their advantage.

Hasbeen,
I had an "IMP" but it was called a Hillman Stiletto.
Built around BMW engineering.
Not many made but it went like a rocket and we did the Bathurst thing way back around '74 or '75
Saw one go to auction in the States a few years ago.
$70,000 US

Yes Chris, they were great fun.

The engine was based on the small Coventry Climax engine. What a pity the Poms had such a fixation on small engines. If they had been able to increase the capacity of the thing to 1500cc, they would have had a world beater. An all alloy overhead cam 1500 would have been really something, way back then.

My big moment of fame, the Sydney Morning Herald reported, with photo, my Imp timed through the Conrod straight flying 1/8Th at 107 MPH, on the front page on the Monday morning paper.

My old mate Max Stewart in his Triumph 2000 saloon, slipped in front of me out of Forrest Elbow, slowed to my speed, then accelerated gently enough for me to keep up, to tow me up to his speed.

Hasbeen,
Sorry my mistake.
Yes, Coventry Climax not BMW.
The engineering was perfection.
I had another Bathurst car, the "SolCal Special" that was for Sol Cohen of the Caltex Highway service Station at Tempe in Sydney.
He looked after our cars. That was a '39 Ford Mercury.
We had a mentor then. A bloke called Doug Chivers who had the service station at the top of the Gosford Hill Kariong, right oppersite the entrance to Gosford Boys Home.
They were great days between Bathurst and the Stock Car races at Parramatta and the street races in Granville.
How did I ever get to be a copper?

there is much more of a partnership mentality between workers & management, which benefits both sides.
Hasbeen,
Thank you. How many times have I stated here that it is all a matter of mentality ? Finally some acknowledgement. I must admit it does feel comforting.

paul, i lived an breathed the changes, i didn't just read about them.

If not for the strength of the meat industry group, we too would have been flogged just like the hospitality industry.

In that industry, Sundays fast became unviable for many, especially given QLD labor state government's typical stance on sur charges, making them unlawful until only recently. in fact, there are some great looking restaurants in south bank that close on Sundays and public holidays because they cant make money.

Further evidence of that industry is in the fact that they now try to keep their cost of goods at around 20%, instead of the normal 33% of past times. Thats why most cafes and restaurant meals are no longer value for money.

Finally, another pledge from Julia was that no worjer or employer would be worse off. How can loosing ones job, or even hours each week be classed as no worse off, and forget about the employers because that statement from her was more like a lie than a statement.

In any case i doubt we can agree, but just remember one point, i lived it, i didn't just read about it.

Butch,its not uncommon for bad business people, who make bad business decisions to blame everyone else, employees, governments, customers unfair competition, etc, everyone but themselves for their own business failings.These cafe business are a dime a dozen, often run by clueless mugs who think they can run a business. Many who start a small business are simply incompetent and deserve to fail, and they do. I have no sympathy for such failures.

While we are debating these so called obscene penalty rates, can we have comment from the 'Usual Suspects' on the obscene practice in Australia of having employees working overtime for NO PAY what so ever. In 2010 ABC News reported that it was estimated that Australian workers donated $70 billion annually in unpaid overtime. I though slavery was outlawed in Australia, seem not according to some employers.

Has anyone else ever wondered why half the take-away food outlets operate "cash Only" a dead set give way to another shonk ripping off the tax system.

take-away food outlets operate "cash Only" a dead set give way to another shonk ripping off the tax system.
Paul1405,
Giving good taxpayers money for absolutely nothing in return to bureaucrats is not shonky ripping off ?
I think it's way more immoral.

Paul, i have often wondered myself about cash only businesses, and yes, I do agree that many are cheating taxes, but some also don't want to pay the fees. A transaction tax would also address this problem.

As for unpaid work, you need to look at the whole story, not just a part of it.

For example, how much of that unpaid time is used for the likes of smoke breaks, or, checking personal emails, send/forwarding funnies, Facebook etc.

Do you think its only fair that any paid hours used on these time outs be made up?

Sickies should also be taken into account if you really want to be serious.

I think if you took this time into account, the result would be way different.

THE REAL PROBLEM..ISNT WAGES
Cost of a pint rises by 1,948% since 1973
thanks to inflation – but can you guess what has soared even faster?
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2574890/Cost-pint-rises-1-948-1973-inflation-says-Lloyds.html

The value of money has shrunk so rapidly over the last 40 years that a pound in 1973 is worth the equivalent of just nine pence today, a new study has found.

Decades of inflation have meant the price of a pint of lager is now 20 times what it was 40 years ago.

It may be hard to believe at a time when a pint costs around £2.87, but in 1973 you would only have to shell out 14 pence for one, according to Lloyds Bank’s analysis of Office for National Statistics figures. Yet even the rise in the cost of beer can't beat gold's performance.

While decades of inflation have seen the cost of everything rise over the past four decades, some items have seen price rises off the scale.

The greatest increase by far has been the price of gold – at a rate even faster than lager. While a Troy Ounce will cost you around £1,051 today, in 1973 it would have cost you a mere £34. This is an increase of an incredible 2,952 per cent.

http://www.bobtuskin.com/2014/03/10/social-engineering-in-the-hunger-games/

MY WORKING THEORY IS DRUG EM TO THE EYEBALLS
then..work thEM INTO EARLY GRAVES..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2577814/The-eminent-doctor-convinced-ad-hd-doesnt-exist-In-fact-says-Dr-RICHARD-SAUL-symptoms-routine-causes-drugs-harm-good.html

http://www.blacklistednews.com/We_Are_In_FAR_Worse_Shape_Than_We_Were_Just_Prior_To_The_Last_Great_Financial_Crisis/33554/0/38/38/Y/M.html

Indi,
You are sure down on public servants, did one book you for not carrying you dog license or something?
Lets hope none of these tax dodging take-away owners ever consume their own cooking. Who knows, they are just as likely then to need a public funded ambulance to cart them off to the nearest public funded hospital for a public funded stomach pumping. According to stats these tax shonky small business kill plenty each year. If they paid their taxes then maybe we could afford more Food Inspectors to catch em in their cockroach canteens!

You are sure down on public servants,
Paul1405,
I work with them on an hourly basis & therefore witness the waste on an hourly basis & the incompetence on an hourly basis. They have the audacity to just increase fees whenever they feel they're running low on funds to prevent a domino effect. Govt charges are at an immoral high as are the salaries & conditions for the parsites that are bureaucrats. There are many in the public service who do important & valuable work but they're not found amongst the bureaucrats & they're the ones I'm on about. As I said I experience them on an hourly basis.

Butch you are right, not often I admit you are right, but in this case you are right. Not all unpaid O/T is simply exploration, quite to the contrary;
"For example, how much of that unpaid time is used for the likes of smoke breaks, or, checking personal emails, send/forwarding funnies, Facebook etc"
I have worked with, and been in charge of, "office types" who are to say the least, lazy. People who habitually arrive 15 minutes late for work, kings and queens of the long lunch break, coffee breaks, smokos, phone calls, yes internet. These are the same "would-be's if they could be's" who will hang around after normal work hours, trying to "catch up" on unfinished work, and gas bagging, work they should have done through the day instead of etc etc. All I can say about them is they ought to "get a life, do their job, and get home"
These very people are often anti union, but have a distorted sense of entitlement and self worth, get better pay and conditions than those at the coal face, the real workers, but begrudge real works the little they do get. I personally came up through the ranks, so seen both sides of the coin, a bit old school, like my old man. Unfortunately most I refer to, never seen anything other than the rarefied atmosphere of the office, so had no idea as to what real work was. could tell you some stories about people that you would not believe, and they were not public servants, but people employed in private enterprise.
I'm much more concerned about exploitation of out workers and kids that the under worked and overpaid office types.

Indi, I don't doubt you for a minute about those bureaucratic public servant, but sadly their identical twin brothers and sisters also work in private enterprise.

sadly their identical twin brothers and sisters also work in private enterprise.
Paul1405,
No-one's denying that, but at least in private enterprise they can be gotten rid of at no great expense unlike bureaucrats in the public service.

....No-one's denying that, but at least in private enterprise they can be gotten rid of at no great expense unlike bureaucrats in the public service.

And there in lies the problem Indi, as these leaches set, or should i say, lower, the bench mark and, considering less productive workers get paid, usually the same, it is little wonder productivity decreases as many adopt the attitude of, why bother!

The likes of QGC, Leightons and even Origin to a lessor extent now tend to drop a lot of staff at the end of the year, only to re hire around Feb March.

They do this to one, get rid of the dead wood, and two, to avoid long term arrangements whereby they are subjected to what i consider ridiculous redundancy payments.

Of cause this damages loyalty, but i guess their hands are tied.

Speaking of obseen penalty rates, hows $1000 a day on a Sunday sound, holdinding a stop go sign, simply because its Sunday.

Now this is pure union thuggery at work, because they all live in camps, so Sundays are no different to any other day, as they work 21/7 rosters, commencing on Weddnsdays.

Dear rehctub
$1000 a day for lollie pop man no way base rate is $24 an hour and 50% penalty for Sunday so this guy worked 27 hours that day did he ? I appreciate your view points but stop telling straight out lies

Aussieboy, I don't work on a Sunday for anything less than $2 grand!
Yes at $41.66/hr for 24 hours = $1000, hummm, long day, sounds unbelievable for a person om wages. Butch can you tell us under which workplace agreement that 'lollipop' person was working. All those WA's are in the public domain. The only ones who would get that sort of money would be your "small business" types like a plumber on a Sunday and he'd want the mandatory "cash in hand."

Yes, they work for the likes of Leightons, on the APLNPG project, at Miles QLD.

Their base rate is $40 per hour + penalties.

their operators/truck drivers are on about $45 an hour.

So back to the stop go person, 11.5 hours at double time $80 = $920.Thats fact.

They usually net around $11,000 per month 3on 1 off, within that they get paid about a grand a week on their one week off, plus they receive full board (one person per donga) all meals, of very high standard.

So when comparing this with the average stop go worker, is it any wonder the calculation of the average wage is flawed.

This type of money and conditions is very standard for the industry, as i have a mate in the coal mines who works one on one off, he NETS $2300 one week, and $2000 for his week off. He does pay his own costs for his van accommodation.

Most safety officers work a two on one off roster and can earn unto $250K per year, for what amounts to less than six months work.

Can you just imagine the carnage when these people have to re enter main stream employment.

The sad part is that most of these people ar under 30 and have nothing to show for their efforts.

The pubs here are full every night, with many spending up to $150 per night, plus some.

This is why a house has gone from under $100K to over $500K in about seven years.

mainstream media tells senseless truths with great detail, but vital information is vague and covered in lies
http://www.naturalnews.com/044288_mainstream_media_vague_information_lies.html

The politics of war, Wall Street and Big Pharma all spill over into Big Food, so it's time to talk about it and point out why it's so important to understand politics in order to avoid politics. You have complete control over your choices as a consumer, and believe it or not, this can affect Big Food and Big Pharma in the long run. How will you step up your "game" and be a part of your own health solution, not your own problems? First of all, you have to identify the hoaxes, the lies and the staged drama that has the sole intent of influencing your "consumer" decisions in all the wrong ways. It plays out on televisions, on radio, in magazines and on the internet. It's all about perspective and interpretation. Here we go.
»
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304250204579433312607325596?mg=reno64-wsj
* Permalink

http://investmentwatchblog.com/living-wage-calculator-poverty-in-america/

http://xrepublic.tv/node/7917

Butch,

A 'lollipop' pulling a grad a (long) day from Leightons looks small beer when you consider ex Leightons CEO Hamish Tyrwhitt just walked away with a cool $10.25 million and his mate CFO Peter Gregg departs with $8.2 million. Judging by the amounts Leightons throw around they are underpaying that 'lollipop'. Did Tyrwhitt do 10,000 day of O/T. LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/business/tearful-day-for-leightons-boss-20140313-34pkc.html

UNDERSTANDING..THE ROOT..OF THE PROBLEM
http://board.freedomainradio.com/page/books/the_handbook_of_human_ownership_a_manual_for_new_tax_farmers.html

When you stop..trading in God,..[al/life=sacred].
you can start..trading...as Life.iF goods.
[WHY/EAt..the food/when your food..can grow food for you..

Serf landholdings..were willed to sons,..which created increasing fragmentation of properties,..and inevitable inefficiencies in sowing and plowing...The ruling classes,..eager to remain..in the cities rather than go back to the damp and dirty countryside,..forced the enclosure movement..on the peasants,..consolidating landholdings and driving hundreds of thousands of serfs..off their ancestral lands.

This almost immediately..increased agricultural productivity,..saving the cities-while creating a massive army of cheap labor which,..having no land..to farm anymore,..inevitably ended up looking for work..in towns.

The conditions were thus.ripe for..the Industrial Revolution..capital freedom,..a mass of cheap labor,..some free trade,..excess food, and the growing religious skepticism..which resulted from the wonderful advances of/the scientific method,..followed since the 16th century.

It was at some point during..this period that the greatest leap forward in human ownership came to pass,..which was the simple genius of allowing the livestock..to choose their own occupations.

At one fell swoop,..the problem of livestock motivation..was largely solved..at least until the present.....Rather than eat the human livestock,...or own them directly,..or force them into specific occupations,..a free market was created.for the source of wealth, while the enslavement aspect..was shifted to the effects of wealth, i.e....wages and capital.

Labor was free,..wages were taxed..this was the greatest leap forward in human farming history!..All prior ruling classes were revealed as incompetent parasites,...compared to the brilliant manipulations of the modern human harvester!

The economic predations of..YOU..the ruling classes still remained, but became..largely invisible...AS THE BEUROCRACY..ISSUED DEED GRANT AND LICENCE..TO THE SElECT Few...Tariffs and duties were buried in the prices paid by consumers,..who had no comparison prices to see their effects.

The softening of the visible..whip to a kind of..staturory/leeching via/uncertain/govt..fog gave the..livestock the perception of freedom -and they all..stampeded to work,..TO/WAR..CHORE..to..THE ILLUSION..OF A MYTHICAL..COMMON-wealth,to fatten our tables..NOT/THE SHEeple-servant/serf class,in a way..We had never dreamed possible!

The trapped/entrepreneurial..energies of..the human/herd...were thus unleashed for the first time..in history,..AND..THE BEST SUFF Stolen/by patent/law..simple genius..producing a staggering superabundance of./concentrated/wealth..and..FAD/products and services,..portions of which were hoovered up..to the ruling classes to a degree.never..before experienced!

http://board.freedomainradio.com/page/books/the_handbook_of_human_ownership_a_manual_for_new_tax_farmers.html

good news....BAD/NEWS
the problem isn’t that Walmart revealed how poor its customers really are, it’s that Walmart revealed how poor..US...shoppers really are.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lauraheller/2014/03/28/walmart-just-revealed-how-poor-u-s-shoppers-are/?partner=yahootix

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2014/03/27/Hospitals-Plot-End-Insurance-Companies

Creativity and Non-Conformity
Now listed as a Mental Illness by Psychiatrists
http://readychimp.com/2014/03/27/creativity-and-non-conformity-now-listed-as-a-mental-illness-by-psychiatrists/
Now thanks to thought policing by the American Psychiatric Association the latest addition of the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) is setting up the dominoes for arbitrary diagnosis of any dissenting individuals.

listed as new mental illnesses are above-average creativity and cynicism. The manual goes on to identify a mental illness called “oppositional defiant disorder” or ODD. Defined as an “ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile and defiant behavior,” symptoms include questioning authority, negativity, defiance, argumentativeness, and being easily annoyed.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/why-texas-is-booming-how-low-taxes-small-government-are-transforming-the-lone-star-state/

Slavery by consent
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/slavery-by-consent-full-version/

The last portions are the best. We know most of this. But people who won't listen to us conspiracy theorists are easier to reach thru media because they've been indoctrinated to believe what the talking heads say.

I'm fond of http://undergrounddocumentaries.com particularly economy and banking.

http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/wage-crisis-americas-new-underclass/
http://www.themoneymasters.com/
http://rabble.ca/columnists/2014/03/why-fructose-sugar-makes-us-sick

http://investmentwatchblog.com/meanwhile-in-europe-obama-says-the-constitution-is-out-dated-international-law-is-supreme-united-nations/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/jay-jordan-warned-investors-of-financial-chaos-that-could-embroil-u-s-market-as-the-fed-tries-to-re-balance-its-unprecedented-3-5-trillion-balance-sheet/