So with all the name calling and fights about who is telling the truth and who's telling lies, why don't we cut to the chase and discuss the real underlying issue here, is SPC worth saving, with tax payers dollars (remembering they are now scarce) and if so, why?

When responding I would ask you to keep these points in mind.

1. Apparently wages and associated employment costs are not part of the problem.

2. The Australian dollar is at record four year lows

3. It is unlikely that cheap imports will cease in the future.

4. The carbon tax is about to hit transport adding additional costs.

So, I ask again, is it worth saving, if so, why?

Rechtub thanks mate, I could kiss you! at ease very unlikely that will ever happen!
Yes wages are not the problem.
So wade in with what I see as the positives in keeping it open.
It is the last fruit cannery in this country so we are told, what happened to Golden Circle?
Its workers are far from the only folk who need it to remain open.
Farmers growing the fruit even beans caned there go broke or out of the game if it gos.
We supplement chocolate a host of things but the day this country puts imported farm products over our hard up farmers we will be lessor
In a single blow in this Liberal home land community Abbott looked his people in the face and said we do not care about the fate of your COMMUNITY!.

I think in all fairness Belly, Tony Abbott has more in his mind than just that community.

What about the rest of the country? Is there value for money in saving this community, at the expense to many other projects, remembering that we now have no money and any such support will be with borrowed funds.

Exactly, rehctub. It's funny seeing the big spenders (of other people's money) that almost sent us to the wall on failed, hair brained schemes are now bitching because there's no maor moneys left in the coffers to save their mates?

Shut it down and teach them a lesson in saving for a rainy day.

Belly
Sadly it is all about politics.
If the factory was in the seat of any of the cabinet members I imagine the money would have been found.
It is the way of politics and politicians and is not confined to any one party.
They treat us, the voters, as fools. Maybe we are.
Nice day here. Might go fishing this evening.
Take it easy.
SD

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-05/sharman-stone-reveals-discussion-with-pm-on-spc-ardmona/5239450
Maybe this is the real issue.
Politics aside this country, under both forms of government has always supported our primery industry.

Ok Belly, I read a bit of the link the realized it was same old same old.

So, why should the government be so concerned about these farmers, knowing full well that cattle farmers in the north have been decimated, thanks in large to the live export debacle, a cancer that has spread far and wide among cattle farmers and dairy farmers have been committing suicide for decades. Fruit farmers have also been slaughtered by fair work laws

Who decides which farmers areworth supporting/saving, and which are not.

As for SPC, sign over the keys if they walk in the future and I'm sure the government would revisit the issue. Bacuase after all, they can't expect a hand out without giving something in return.

If SPCA is really worth saving (as determined by impartial evaluation of its likely future viability and profitability in a competitive market) AND would continue to provide the best option for our canned-fruit growers (as against growing something else equally or more profitable to them), AND could be purchased outright from Coca-Cola Amatil at a reasonable price, THEN it ought to be in our (AUS) best interest for our State and Federal governments to work with the fruit growers to set up a grower cooperative to purchase SPCA, AS State/Federal funds COULD be found if the need is seen to be great enough. No politics, just economics and national/social best interest.

Perhaps the same evaluation could also be applied to Holden and Toyota?

But, LOANS or Buy-out and Take-over, Not Handouts!

We (Oz) need to find more ways to develop Industry and Jobs, and not just keep crying in our milk "What can I do?"
Time for Oz to stand up for itself, for our society, and for all those needing productive employment.

It's about time our governments got more serious about building our industrial capacity, in preference to building better roads or rail systems. It's about building long-term capacity and resilience, rather than focusing on saving urbanites a few minutes on the way to and from their already-secure jobs.

If government can bail-out cane growers, ex tobacco-farmers and loggers of old-growth forests, why not assist our fruit growers to take control of their destiny?

<<..(remembering TAX DOLLARS are now scarce) and if so, why?>>

YES THATS The key..tax dollars

se we formed govt to regulate trade commerce transport etc
to dO THIS..they created 'convenient fictions'..such as personhood
ie the state creates persons..UNDER the act.

THUS UNDER THE TRANSPORT ACT..they give permissions,,for the 'persons;..doing the trade oF TRANS-PORTing goods..via permissions..[WE CALL Them license]..so to do 'transport'..the licence..allows the person[licence]..to do the business of transport.

ITS ALL RATHER CLEVER..they cant touch..THE LIVING PERSON..but they fully control the licence[the false person]..these non persons[CREATED UNDER THE ACT..reqUIRE A BUSNESS MEANS..they call veHICLES..if dOING transport for money..these must be regesterd.

but if not doing 'transport..nOR commerce..govt cant require licence,,for traVEL..to be cLEAR//only commerce can be regulated

THEY DID..the same re money.,.,etc[but here is the catch 22]
see govt canNOT MAKE ANYTHING BUT COIN LAWFULL TENDER..thus those using money..fall under commerce/law

thing is criminALS..TOOK GOVT RIGHT to issue money..away from govt
[stole it by subverting govt promise[that was contract..promise..[iou]
then unlawfully broke the CONTRACT..in thE PROCESS STEALING..the fed mint treasure

from then on govt couldnt create money[they had to borrow it from criminal baners..at intrest]..then tax us on wages..via the lie OF INCOME TAX

see goVT CREATED FICTIONS..earn income..[as they 'live'..only under the act]//we the living earn wage..yet because we hold licence under the act..the licence being non living..only 'earns income]..as clearly dead persons cant collect wage..thus wage is deemed as if income.

anyhow these personhood fictions of person..now have enslaved us all
[all money[not ;lawfull tender/ie coin]..eis proof of debt[yet us ignorants think it is the value

but think..you know what a bill is
well thats what a bajnk bill is[itys proof of debt]..but you too ignorant..of true law think the debt is credit..when its the noose held by bankers created by lawyers under acts[ie satanists..plunderring the world of coin[real value]..with paper..and now simply digets in a cvomputer

then the bankers went bust

thing is you want cut wages..remove all personal taxation
we pay less 'tax',,for corperate 'bailout'..thus need earn less so the boss can pay less

but instead we need work more for less..to grow the debt
to pay eveN MORE TAX ETC..when govt could simply do as usa fed is doing..iE PRINT IT FOR FREE.

jhoe hockey ,made it worse by giving money they bporrOWED..FROM CHINA
TO THE FED WHO OWNS THE MONEY PRINTING PRESS..AND GETS INTRSST ON THE BAILOUT.,PLUS OUR INCREASED TAXATION.

THE FED THEN Leveraged the cash many times over..to lend to yet other govts at intrst..thing is all bankers broke many laws..HAVE BOUGHT UP ANYTHING OF VALUE..ARE GUILTY OF TREASON..[DITTO JOE HOCKEY]..GIVING THE TREASONOUS BANKERS THeir last drop of OUR LIFE BLOOD

YOUR IGNORANCE HAS COME HOME TO ROOST
and my income STREAM..is dead

stop govt giving our tax to anyone
especially those endebited by unlawful debt

govt needs bailout no one..just take back THE FED/MINT
THEN ISSUE ITS OWN MONEY INTREST FREE..INSTEAD IT DECLARES WAR ON ME..[TO PAY FOR YOUR IGNORANCE]

R,

Wages and associated employment costs are part of the problem.

Most employees have 2 years redundancy benefits, extra loadings on penalty rates, payments for sick leave, weeks off for union reps etc that make the cost of labour far higher than the nominal annual wage.

As long as there is a sugar daddy to bail out unprofitable companies, there is no incentive to improve productivity.

In the USA, GM, Ford, Chrysler all where hugely unprofitable due to union wages and conditions that again had made the cost of labor far higher than the wage. It took the GFC and these companies going into chapter 11 bankruptcy to force the unions to negotiate and remove some of the more ridiculous conditions.

The workers at SPC must decide whether they want to work or not.

sm/quote..<<..It took the GFC and these companies going into chapter 11 bankruptcy to force the unions to negotiate and remove some of the more ridiculous conditions.>>

the ridiculous conditions were needed to pay for extra govt tax
and to repay..the personal credit card interest..as govt sold off assets and assets increased the costs to 'the people'..add in the other revenue/raising increased costs..yes the workers earn their way.

its govt that has failed..it has no constitutional power to tax wage as if income...none but by threat and force..[govt only rules over the fictions[dead persons]..not the living

remove gst..we will take a paycut..50/50..the business savings
take away wage tax..we will work..for the same take home pay

so limit any bailout..to the wages it thieves from the workers
boss pays less..business dont need bailout..everyone is happy

alternately..stop inflating the cost of consumables
if we have true dollar value..its cheaper to live cause less dollars goes further

govt needs only return the fed to govt..control
[ie lend to banks instead of from banks.]

cut tax burden..=cut wages the fair way.
stop depreciating the value of our dollar we need less..from you.

the more stuff costs us
the more it costs you..to work for your wealth.
if your proffit..bought more you too would be happy

the enemy..isnt your workers[nor your bosses]..but that thieves stole our assets by the lie of money/at intrest..see previous links.

govt can survive..simply on issuing its own money..for everything
even bailing out worthy multinationals

why make it a war..the ignorant are being raped by the too clever by far/few..85..of whom..own more that half the worlds wealth..than..3..point 5 billion serfs own.

now these few too clever by far 85..own our infastructure and public services roads grids transport too[as they go up we will need more wages..or eat the rich.

your choice
with us or against us

85..or 3.500,000.000..of us
not liking any of you others..too..obsessed by helping out scum/stealing your savings next[you will by bailin..hold shareholdings in broke banks holding only debt

the 85..hold the assets
tax them..tax their trust..money/assets transphere

85..or 3,500,000,000..
who will survive..in the end
on the loosing side cause they plan to kill of 5.billion useless eaters
once the 3 half billion is dead they wont need you[you will be next]

first they came for the dole bludgers..then stinking carbon producers[breathers]..next the smokers..the poor then the useless service industries..we wont need the cops nor nurses nor docters nor any of you few..middle managers/middle man-agement...nor small business nor the big ones[too few..consumers left]

they know who they want/need..
they got the good vaccination..[those they dont want get the bad ones]..

but hey ignorance=bliss
watch the big scar..vaccinate..
bird swine sars flue..mixed with by bubonic plague..and measles/small pox..and associated random cancer causing virus..to the many..but mainly to you.

heck you already got cancer
you just dont know it yet

how would you know?
we will tell you..lol

right

who cares
till its you/yours.

but..who next?
with the people..[the living]..or the dead

your choice...

The source of the conscience worry is that SPC processes food.
Once the trees are chopped down, it will take years to re-establish orchards.
The SPC board meets on the 18th February.
If they decide to close then there will be an opportunity to perhaps
try crowd funding for a co-op takeover.

It would of course need some very hard headed negotiation with the government.
The government could fund an expert management consultant to report on
the whole system from grower to supermarket shelf.
Certainly an updated tariff regime would be needed to keep dumped or
zero profit imports out of the market.

There is a need for special rules for food, it is a matter of ensuring food security & avoiding hunger.

Yes Saltptre I agree, and the other important factor is that governments, unlike businesses can operate on a cost recovery basis, which in a sense paves the way for lower costs.

Bazz, while there is a need for food security, it does not have to mean that that security is provided by a profit making consortium, so governments may well have reached the point of where they now have to at lease explore the option of government owned and managed manufacturing as a way of providing ongoing long term employment.

But, simply providing a hand out is out of the question.

Rehctub, well I wonder which public servant would be appointed as CEO ?
Hmmm, well actually the main problem does seem to be dumping.
Shipping costs are rising and by the end of this decade it way well be
impossible to transport fruit from Sth America or the US at a dump price.
It might be possible one way or another to keep the plant running till
that happens and in the meantime the government could give an
undertaking to rigidly enforce the anti dumping rules.
Otherwise we would have to re-establish the orchards when shipping
priced imported fruit out of the market.

The problem with that approach is that the government believes fuel
will always be cheap.

under the many..'trade agreements..we cant instal tarrif's
nor..<<..zero profit imports out of the market.>>

the market must be free
the only option..is if big business cant..
then...govt must..

they simply take over the machines
[or..[tax for the lost values..if scrapped
or export tariff..if exported...to india or china

ditto any capitalist plant equipment
[tools of trade belong to the worker][full stop]
govt must stop bailing out the moneyed elites..if they dont preserve the values they do treason.

bailing out bankers..by lending from other bankers..HUH?
let the dead tend the dead..govt was created to serve the living[but has been subverted to serving a mythical shareholder[dont you know the owning shares are safely hidden away by a few[at best they allow you to bet IF it goes up or down.

our trustfunds dont hold first preference shares
they throw 10%..of our wages on betting wether the real shares [or rather promise of real shares will go up or down]

THEY DONT ACTUALLY HOLD REAL SHARES
YOUR SUPPER HAS BEEN STOLEN..by mates of the coke brothers...who too hold real shares.[share trading was set up via a 'house of settlements...who borrowed huge credit..on the security of the shares

[ie they only hold settlement..rights of a promise of a share..[the house of settlements mortgagee holds the shares as security.

the system will fail with a wimper
then the people get angry with a bang..let em hang.

you all broke..you just dont know it yet
[80 trillion of debt..mate..and we dont own nuthin..85 people like the coke brothers do...[the old money]..holds the real paper...

but we hold /the productive..moral..lawfull/physicly..hold..the asset under adverse possession..if we stand together..the bankers cant win..either.

your enslaved by marfia run two party systems
ruling the roost both sides..the greens links back to prince/phil[who favours getting rid of the human garbage..prefers trees..[as he said as recently as yesterday..on bbc.

nothing like a little disaster..eh phil

Funny..there was another lot around a while back who tried to socialise risk while maintaining the privatisation of profit for selected industries..strange mob, adopted an old Sanskrit symbol, reversed it and painted it on their Mercedes limousines...darned if I can recall their names.

One more point, I read what Joe Hockey said about government financial
support of companies today.
He said that when government gives money they have to borrow it.

It struck me, that being so why don't the companies, eg SPC, go to the
banks themselves ?
If they say the banks won't lend the money, does that mean then that
the business is a bad risk ?
If so, no point in the government throwing money at it !

As a progressive and a believer in sustainability, I cannot support the idea of government throwing billions at what are seen as ailing business. This is done without any firm commitments or guarantees from the business, often extracting nothing more than a vague promise to continue operations in the short term, and thus providing a few jobs. Invariably despite this injection of government capital there is no structural change within the business and the crises is merely forestalled for the short term. Future decisions about these relatively unimportant operations in Australia by multinationals will be made in the boardrooms of New York or Tokyo, and not in Canberra, Australia will have no say. For the politician the throwing of money in this way is "good" as it can, and does, in the short term shore up voter support in the local electorate, "I have saved your job" and does go down well with the locals. I am the first to say people have to be looked after and protected and in no way should they be thrown on the scrap heap, which constantly happens long term to many effected by this very problem.
What is the alternative for a better long term sustainable outcome. We need to work smarter, not harder! We need to exploit our advantages and take risks. If private enterprise is unable or unwilling, as often seems to be the case, governments need to take the initiative and develop long term strategies to combat these systemic problems facing Australian industry.

How does "sustainability" factor into private enterprise save via interventionist state policies?
In a free market competent businesspeople succeed, incompetent businesspeople fail.