otb,

I've just read your second post.
I missed it previously.

The difference between the previous government and
this one is that the previous one did not hide
behind "security reasons," on very direct, specific
questions that had nothing to do with "security."
This one has gagged its ministers and they precisely
that, especially in Question Time in Parliament which
beggars belief and goes against the democratic tradition.

"Security Reasons" are supposed to be genuine - and not
used as a pretext not to have to answer questions.
And you can twist that anyway you like and accuse me of
all sorts of things as you usually do. You're such a
charmer that way!

I am reasonably sure even Prime Ministers are not told just what the two spy groups we have are doing.
We have one for internal spying and the international one.
Now is anyone thinking ranting and raving will solve this?
Not Howard OUG it is fair in the middle of Rudd,s first go round.
I question again did he even know.
We are in danger of this heating beyond easy fixes.
We can not let our trade links suffer *live cattle* the first victim.
We know, or should,Indonesian police and army make cash out of sending refugees, not stopping them.
Why risk ten thousand in a month?
Shorten has offered by partisanship on this issue.
Abbott and Bill should go as soon as possible and say sorry.
And as Diplomacy allowes tell honest thoughts about the Murders of East Timor.
And our Murdered TV reporters, we if it comes to it can settle the issue or turn a growing friend/market into an enemy quite capable of threatening us.

belly..GLOBALLY..spying jumped hugely..post 911
you may recall we were talking..back then..about..'shovel ready/jobs'
funny enough.,.these shovel ready jobs were mainly screening at..airports..and building a new beast called homeland 'security'

this was when..howard..proved he wernt a coward
by going into sadam/insane..land..[iraq]....and alfgoana-stan..
to put in..the pipeline for busche seniors mates..anyhow..

thats when..security became king
for the war monger war machine

way better than..the school/book..1984..ever hoped
the pigs in-the ;animal-farm'..did their thing..[and still are]

Belly, "I am reasonably sure even Prime Ministers are not told just what the two spy groups we have are doing."

Is that so? To whom do you reckon they are accountable and who approves the funding? Maybe the media might form opinions otherwise at times especially because government is unlikely to confirm or deny.

This PM (Julia Whatshername) seems to have had something to do with 'those' groups,
http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/451494/pm_commits_1_46_billion_improving_cyber_security_networks/

This PM too (Kevin Rudd),
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-23/asio-headquarters-opens-in-canberra/4837858

and Labor wrote ASIO's Charter. Here is what Mr Rudd said,

"The Chifley government wrote the charter for ASIO in 1949.

"For all the years that now separate us from Ben Chifley's Australia and ours, his vision for the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation has survived the passage of time," Mr Rudd said.

"The end of the Cold War did not end the threat of espionage and terrorism. We depend on ASIO to protect our democratic freedoms, to deal with terrorism and to combat espionage."

[link given above]

I think President "Bang Bang" is pulling your strings

He is cleverly using the spying fiasco
as a smoke screen, because Australia was starting to ask
a lot of questions about the people smuggling trade(questions
that should have been asked years ago)
about Indonesian involvement in the lucrative money side
of people smuggling involving Indonesian officials.

Why a highly militarised country like Indonesia has no navy
ships patrolling the waters where asylum boats regularly
launch into the ocean? Shock horror could it be that
Indonesia is deliberately turning a blind eye to sinking boats
and drowning people.

President Yudiono Bang bang, said on the news to Tony
Abbot the other night "Don't expect Indonesia to co-operate with Australia to stop the people smuggling boats. That immediately confirmed my suspicions about the game he is playing."

Those questions were putting Indonesia in the hot seat lately
What a great chance to divert attention the spying affair is.
And how the left wing Indonesian suck-ups fall for it hook, line
and sinker.

You are much smarter than they are "Bang Bang."

Cherful,

Good post.

Also, having taken Mr Rudd for what they could get they want more sweets please. It is about money too.