Thought a thread would be in place about this issue.
Many heads to this one, we must consider why Australian Spy activity's got in to the American system.
For that has to be the place the contractor? now releasing his stash got it from.
Russia a country with nearly as many faces and heads, shelters the fool and in doing so sponsors his activity's.
After saying he could stay only if he stopped dumping on America.
Why Australia needed to monitor phones is debatable.
Given Americas massive monitoring in part carried out in Australian based establishment are we guilty only of doing that country,s bidding?
And surely if we are to talk about this we must include the truth, every country does these things and Russia, now benefiting from the load mouthed fools work has far from a clean record?
China is after America the worlds biggest spying nation, or is it Russia?

Yes government thugs have destroyed security for internet users world wide, way to go dipshits! Now no transaction can be trusted, no website, no nothing. Soon as those evil terrrrrorist bad guys find all those back doors and they will! Nothing you see on your computer, phone screen can be trusted! They'll have a ball injecting middle of the man crap to infinity and beyond.

Oh wait! That was the plan all along!

Dear Belly,

All nations in the modern world spy and they do it
for reasons of national security. As far as Indonesia
is concerned I find that their protestations about
spying not being cricket are a little overblown.

As one commentator stated, "Indonesia has amassive
military and a history of violent colonialism - our
defence force spies on them for a reason."

We shouldn't need reminding "that Indonesia had used
armed force on 3 occassions at least to change, or seek
to change, International borders".

"Indonesia seized West Papua by a combination of military
pressure and diplomatic threats in the 1960s. That same
decade Indonesian troops launched a series of cross
border raids into Malaysian territory in order to
destabilize the newly formed Malaysian federation."

The commentator also points out that "Australian forces
were deployed against Indonesian troops in order to protect
Malaysia. Twenty three Australians died during this episode
known as "Confrontation."

Then let's not forget that "in 1975 Indonesia illegally
invaded East Timor, a non-self-governing territory as
defined by the UN Charter. According to Article 73 of the
UN Charter - there was a "sacred Trust" to uphold "the
well-being of the inhabitants of those territories."
However, Indonesia's invasion and 24 year occupation of East
Timor caused the largest loss of life relative to total
population since the Holocaust."

Let our Prime Minister use diplomatic means to appease the
Indonesians but I am proud that our PM is standing strong
on this issue by not brown-nosing them. As Mr Downer
stated sometime ago, we have to think of Australian
sovereignty.

Hi Belly,

Great post--spot on!

Everyone spies ! stop feigning indignation.

Foxy;

"Let our Prime Minister use diplomatic means to appease the
Indonesians but I am proud that our PM is standing strong
on this issue by not brown-nosing them. As Mr Downer
stated sometime ago, we have to think of Australian
sovereignty."

I'm curious as what you think Abbott's recalcitrant "tough guy" attitude to Indonesia is going to achieve?

After all, he had no problem toadying to them on a recent trip on live exports, etc.

He was only too happy to apologise to the Malaysian PM for his remarks while in Opposition.

As I remarked earlier, it was the lack of overt contrition that has upset relations between our two countries - not any notion that spying is a major surprise.

It's not as if these things don't happen. The usual charade is for the perpetrator to apologise and for relations to continue after a speed bump.

Abbott has gone about building a concrete wall which will now have to be chipped away before relations can improve.

If you think Abbott can rhetorically slap SBY in the face on the floor of the Australian Parliament, and that somehow "diplomatic means" are going to wave a magic wand and make it go away...I think you're dreaming.

The diplomatic means to appease the Indonesians were at Mr Abbott's disposal when he got up on the floor today.

They weren't employed.

@Poirot,

<<In a 2004 interview, retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono said his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and politicians' phone calls.It also made unsuccessful attempts to recruit Australian spies, he said.>
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/indonesia-spied-on-australia-in-2004-says-ex-intelligence-chief/story-fn59nm2j-1226763231240

Soooo since our incident happened in 2009 and theirs in 2004, how about we say "YOU FIRST!"

<<He was only too happy to apologize to the Malaysian PM for his remarks while in Opposition>>
The point you are missing Poirot is, you only apologize if you don't intend to do the offensive act again --even you are wise enough to know that isn't so: <<The usual charade is for the perpetrator to apologize and for relations to continue after a speed bump.>>
Your suggested response isn't diplomacy --it's bared assed Machiavellianism (which is probably why it's the first thing that springs to your mind!).

And while we're on << The usual charade is for the perpetrator to apologize and for relations to continue after a speed bump>>
Wow! If that's all it takes some people would be a reaaaaal pushover to the ploy:"but will you still respect in the morning?
"yes of course ...now, your place or mine."

Abbott has gone about building a concrete wall which will now have to be chipped away before relations can improve.
Poirot,
And you lot are still building a moat of crap. I find it it traitorous to say the least how some lefties are undermining this Government's work of rebuilding. Decency is not in your vocabulary is it ?

Raw Mustard what is the purpose of that post? are you over ten years of age?
Indy mate leave it out!we know but!
I am at not sure some understand why we have a word like Diplomacy, and why that word is so important, to both sides.
And unsure if we understand Abbott could, maybe should? have dumped the issue back on the Labor Government in power at that time.
He showed guts in not doing that.
But must in private and publicly say sorry now, after he spoke in public like that.
But how many can see a reason for listening in, or attempting to, to that Nations heads phone, his wifes? his deputy.
Here I remind some, seen in other threads, saying we should make Indonesia say sorry to us, for the boat people! of that word DIPLOMACY.
We can use it even now, it is away to save face on both sides, but too has always been a cover, known by both sides for lies.
So we can find many reasons for concern many questions and no answers.
Why however is America using contractors in such important areas.
Why is Russia poking at prodding at America and the world by letting this fool hide there.
Apart that is from its head being a self loving idiot.
Let us not confuse Snowdon with that other releaser of hidden activity's, this bloke is a waster of the air he breaths.

Indy I over looked your second insult, that over time is my view of every post you put up here.
But it is time I took the role of Devils advocate.
I am going to defend you!
I get you, understand.
You have the view the world is wrong, always.
And it needs you to pop up now and again and introduce it to a Taxidermist.
Fancy telling us we are traitors!
Diplomacy is a centurys old fact.
It is used by all Nations, to smooth over things like this by shaking hands telling each other lies and kissing both cheeks.
In the end Indy IF one side trys to be top dog no answer /resolution is possible.
EVERY TIME
Now it is time I put those skills I learned of in my working life to use.
Indy my mate! every thing you say is true, I will ring you and talk about it when time allowes,diplomacy's for good by bloke!

what tonies missing..is that we dont let..china
build our phony..tony..telephony..system

yet...gasp..chinese..not*
because the china man..will..spy on..us

well tony..now the wet sock..is on..the other foot
WE ALL..DO IT..so get out of business..of picking winners
and stop the whining...i know two faced..and im seeing it here.

oh..its just fine and dany..if its the mossad or
the usa's..40 other spying agencies..but not the chinese?

im seeing cross-eyed
or one eyed...logic..

and re this keeping the boat/people..info close to ya chest
dont wash neither..if the traffickers are getting it direct..from the media..in..the lands..of the foreigner..the darker yellow/dark peril

its purely to keep ausies in the dark
not the..angels of mercy..helping the modern day jew..escape..modern..SYSTEMATIZED..govt oppression..actively recorded order by order..that we yet again..will never hear..nor even any court

by their works..will..we know you
not ya..pr/spinners carefully worded/words

Poirot, between you, me and the gatepost, I can tell you why Abbott is
being "stubborn" and refusing to apologise.
It is simple, he knows that Indonesia is employing the same tactics.
However he cannot let on that he knows.

Now I can say that because I am a nobody and it is supposition.

Belly, the "Five Eyes", US, UK, Canada, NZ & Aus goes back to the war.

X stations were set up and operated by these countries and sent their
copying of enemy traffic to Bletchley Park for decyphering.
Incidentaly many monitoring stations were run by radio amateurs who
were recruited as they had the expertise.

This sort of thing has been going on since then.
The first ASIO computer in Canberra was "tapped", probably by the
Russians, by listening to the pulses radiated by the wiring of the
computer, by means of a radio receiver connected to the fence around
the installation.

Now I bet that gets "flagged" but it is very old history and resulted
in a technology called "Tempest" to make computers more secure.
Remember the BBC documentary that showed people in a van in the street
displaying the monitor of a computer inside the building ?

Even the Indonesians will get a copy of this. Hello !

The problem has been caused by the ABC using the information politically.
They appear to have had the information for some months but waited
till after the election to publish it.
I would have thought they would have committed some offence by releasing
this information, but perhaps not. If not, it should be.
If it was wartime they would have been put before a firing squad.

If no action is taken against the ABC then we have lost the plot completely.

SPQR,

It's no use getting into a slanging match about who did what in times gone by.

The bottom line is that Abbott can hardly utter a phrase without inserting the words "stop da boats" - and guess whose cooperation he needs to bring that about?

And that's besides all the other reasons to look after our relationship with Indonesia.

I presume his orders to thumb his nose at diplomacy in this instance came from higher echelons - Abbott merely being a not very polished marionette for LNP power players - his speech which he read out would have been crafted by others.

So strategically all this appears to be quite silly and self-defeating...nice for Australians with weak egos to have a bit of a chest thump, but no real help to the nation.

Here's an article which marks out the challenges ahead:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/off-we-go-again-on-the-indonesia-rollercoaster-20131119-2xt8i.html

Poirot,

<<It's no use getting into a slanging match about who did what in times gone by>>
No it's very pertinent-- because Mr Marty Natalegawa is now playing holier than thou and saying they would NEVER stoop so low!

And as for:
<< all the other reasons to look after our relationship with Indonesia>>

ROFL

The sort of relationship you describe reminds me of a relationship you might have with a school yard bully

Give me hundreds of million$ in aid
Give me access to you best agricultural land
Give my special forces, KOMPAS, training

But unless you say sorry we are going to "review relations with you"

Well, perhaps, we should review the training and funding of the Free Papuan Army.

SPQR,

Nice to see you maintaining your standards...

"ROFL" is about as deep as it gets with you.

Oh well.....

Okay....let's see how Mr Clever-pants Abbott fares by maintaining his line.

Should be fun to watch!

Dear Poirot,

Of course what you've said makes sense amd Abbott
should have been more diplomatic. However, considering
Indonesia's history and Mr Abbott's previous bowing
to them, I was simply glad that this time he stood up
as a leader. It can't always be about them and their
way. Or can it? I suppose it can with them having a
massive military and a history of violent colonialism.
Anyway, I'll go and sit in the naughty corner now and
keep my mouth shut and next time I'll try th think a
bit more before posting. It simply was a gut reaction on my
part - "Way to Go Mr Abbott!" That was what I was feeling
at the time and I gave our PM the thumbs up!

Harking back to this Indonesian admission:

<<the outgoing intelligence chief with agency Badan Intelijen Negara [said]...spies had targeted Australians [tried to recruit Australians]>>

Just an after thought--were you in Indonesia around 2004?

Foxy,

"Anyway, I'll go and sit in the naughty corner now and
keep my mouth shut and next time I'll try th think a
bit more before posting. It simply was a gut reaction on my
part - "Way to Go Mr Abbott!" That was what I was feeling
at the time and I gave our PM the thumbs up!"

Wow!...you really think that I don't believe you should say what you think?

Go for it!

It's just that I believe it's a bit of LNP bravado from a "very confident" govt used to serving it up in spades domestically.

It's something they're going to have to spend a lot of time repairing.

That's a lot of time and energy.

Anyhoooo...here's a well-balanced examination of the issue.

http://theconversation.com/australia-indonesia-spy-standoff-more-than-just-gestural-politics-20427

Dear Poirot,

Not at all.

I was simply explaining to you my thoughts at the time
of posting and the reasons for them.

Thanks for the link.

However I still feel strongly about the subject - and
right or wrong - I'm all for standing up to the Indonesians,
I feel that they've had things a little too much - their
way.

Our spooks are not doing a great job at this spying caper, keep getting caught. They should watch re-runs of 'Get Smart' to see how Max does it. I believe our 'Chief' spook Tony Boloney was seen outside the Indo Presidential Palace in a 'Skippy' suit hiding behind a tree with a dirty big spy glass, peeing through windows. I've got a bit of exclusive footage of Our Tone getting to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egIvTgfFJ9w

I wouldn't be paying Poirot much attention. Old Tin of Fruit has bouncing off the walls since before the election and he didn't start off the full quid as far as emotional intelligence goes. He needs to develop his feminine side. Hmmm, of course it could be that the girdle is killing him. They do not make proper ones for Ladies and where to tuck every little thing is a problem.

We all know what the leftist Guardian newspaper is getting out of releasing more of the long departed Snowden's papers: thousands of dollars of free publicity for itself to sell more audience to its advertisers. What we should be asking is why Australia's national broadcaster is helping the Guardian out and giving it all extra spin, helping to embarrass Australia.

As Australians we do not gain and in fact we would definitely be the losers from the intel that could come from government confirming or denying allegations concerning its intelligence services. That is why neither Labor nor the LNP would ever do that. The ABC already knows that, which poses questions about the informal but persistent editorial policy it operates.

I am not saying that the ABC necessarily prefers Labor nor the LNP. In fact it doesn't and comes across as representing the views of the 'Progressive' educated elite, more Green Left. The ABC doesn't want to discuss its informal editorial policy -which matters more than the formal editorial policy that strongly implies independence. Maybe the national broadcaster in its 'Auntie' days was once independent, however it isn't now. It will be a long cold day in Hell before Media Watch ever questions any of that.

Paul,

"... peeing through windows..."

There was obviously a typo in his top-secret instruction manual - he's very literal, you know.

Foxy,

My main area of interest is how he expects cooperation on his baby "stop the boats" (coming from Indonesia)...if he insists on pushing a diplomatic pie in their face at this juncture.

Culturally, having someone blow a raspberry at you from the floor of Parliament would not lend them the disposition to cooperate with you.

What will be achieved as far as bilateral engagement on commonalities under the circumstances?

Not much....

Indonesia has an election in the wind and the elites are buzzing in anticipation. It is just like Oz. As usual, time will pass and things will return to normal.

The UK's Guardian newspaper is a rag.

The ABC (along with the SBS) really needs to present a disciplined and specific business case to Parliament for continuance of public funding at the level it has been. Likely the SBS could do what the ABC does or vice versa, but two national broadcasters is gilding the lily at the expense of other pressing needs of government, such as aged care.

otb,

On the contrary,

Here's something from Murdoch's news.com

http://www.news.com.au/opinion/scott-morrisons-secrecy-would-be-funny-if-it-wasnt-so-serious/story-fnh4jt54-1226764171999

If this doesn't let you know we're dealing with no talent kiddies running the show, then....

"IF the Government's determination to block information on asylum seeker policy hasn't reached a peak of absurdity it is must surely be just short stroll from that summit.

We now see Immigration Minister Scott Morrison refusing to confirm information released by Immigration Minister Scott Morrison."

"Last Friday The Australian reported the buy-the-boats program announced by the Coalition before the election had been dropped. This was the plan to purchase Indonesian fishing vessels to prevent them being used to carry asylum seekers.

"At this stage, that's not a measure the Indonesian government wants to see as part of those co-operative activities, and we respect that," Mr Morrison was quoted as saying in the report, which he has not challenged."

"But it had not been confirmed by minister Morrison. He did last Friday, but seems determined not to do so again, no matter the absurdity.

He was asked about the fate of the scheme by Labor during Question Time on Monday and Tuesday and dodged a direct answer. He probably will be asked again today.

"The Government will not be supporting the Opposition's campaign for the people smugglers' right to know. That is not something we are going to engage in," Mr Morrison said in one reply on Tuesday.

So Scott Morrison was upset with the person who had blabbed about the dumping of the boat buyback plan. That is, with Scott Morrison. And he was not going to confirm or deny to Parliament any loose talk by anyone, including Scott Morrison."

"The Abbott government has attempted to chloroform the dispersal of information on many fronts, but no where as vigorously as on asylum seeker policy, which it has dressed up as some sort of martial law, right-to-know issue.

But this pantomime of Scott Morrison refusing to confirm what he himself has said points more at a stubborn arrogance than careful management of information."

These amateur cloak-and-dagger goons (otherwise known as Ministers) are a joke.

I have seen a report that Scotland Yard is investigating the Guardian
over its release of the spying reports on Indonesia.

However there is nothing on the Guardian web site about it, not even
a denial.
I wonder if the AFP is doing a similar investigation.
There may well be complementary legislation in all 5 Eyes countries.

No aussies know nothing about spying really. In my former home Albania we, everybody spyed on everybody, you could not trust even your neighbourgh and not the Army or police specially. My friend was taken from his home one morning and not seen no more ! We are very very lucky here in Oz because you have no spying anywhere, we trust each other, be thankfull for all of that.

Our relationship with Indonesia is worth an apology, before things get any worse.
Gas may become our next consumer problem, with a tripling of the price.

Rubbish 579;
The Indonesians knew all about the system from the early 2000s at least.
They expressed their appreciation of the AFP being able to tap the
phones of the bombing terrorists and an Indonesian General said how
appreciative they were of their ability being made available.
Of course the AFP was just a front for the Aus signals people.
The Australian has a that story today, but the Fairfax papers have ignored it.
Probably does not suit their line of reporting.

However it just shows how hypocritical the whole thing has become.
Yudiono should be thankful that friends have shown him how foolish it
is to use insecure phones.
I am sure Obama will show him his Blackberry.

BTW, anybody seen Tony Abbott using a mobile phone ?
If so was it a Blackberry ?

Now that it has been in the papers around the world. Indonesia is obliged to do something about it. So Abbott has to apologies to Indonesia and take the fall out from the rest of the world. The world already knows abbott is an imbecile so it won't hurt at all.

In my second post today I tried to play down the act of saying sorry.
And the use of Diplomacy, so easy to say sorry, yes I know, Indonesia has spyed on us, still does.
But as sure as you can be, if Abbott,s phone was tapped, and an idiot like the Russian servant now dumping on us all, let the cat out of the bag?
For no other reason than the open airing of the whole issue we can still say sorry bloke it was wrong and we will never do it again.
Then like every country in the world, continue to do it.
ABC gee harsh, seems more likely they *had to wait till after the election or be considered biased*
In this case remember it is the USA and Snowdon who owe every one an sorry we employed an idiot and let him loose on the world..

Belly, I think the problem is that if Abbott says sorry and won't do it
again, no one will believe him.
So if he refuses to apologise and gives no commitment, then he will be
seen to be in the wrong but honest.

Foxy>> Let our Prime Minister use diplomatic means to appease the
Indonesians but I am proud that our PM is standing strong
on this issue by not brown-nosing them. As Mr Downer
stated sometime ago, we have to think of Australian
sovereignty.<<

As I understand it they have today demanded an apology.....give it to them...only they apologize for murdering unarmed Australian journo's....give it to them when hell freezes over.

Shove a "must" in after "only they."

All countries spy and all know everyone else knows they spy. The very simple reason that Australia and other countries do not confirm or deny anything to do with intelligence, be the allegation right or wrong, is that to do so (as I said earlier) in itself delivers some intelligence to others.

Indonesia knows Australia has always had the policy of no comment and it is only domestic politics with Indonesia's elites fussing playing argy bargy, and similarly in Australia the self-styled 'Progressive' elite doing the stirring. Both country's educated, well-off and comfortable elites do that in the full knowledge that spying is perfectly usual as is neither confirming or denying allegations.

Regardless of what the commercial media might do to increase their circulation among their dumbed-down audience who need their daily fix of adrenaline from sensationalist reporting, the question remains as to Australia's taxpayer-funded national broadcaster has done the same. The ABC knows much better and it is not competing as the tabloid does for the easily-swayed mob for an audience.

So, once again, why does the ABC do it? Another, when will Auntie ABC return, the one that at least had some reason to claim independence all of those years ago?

Next, why does the Aussie taxpayer have to stump up $$ for two publicly-funded national broadcasters when surely one will do? The original aims of both the ABC and the SBS have been overtaken and the widespread access to news, information and if the elites like, culture, well caters to everyone's needs.

Your ABC.......what a perverse social engineering company Aunty has become....I present the only decent thing that Aunty has produced in the last 25 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf14Evmx5pg

Looks like Snowden will be in russia for a while yet. Everybody spies, the idea is not to get caught. But seeing the word is out and Abbott with his big mouth, has no option but to send sincere apologies and without delay. Indonesia has the upper hand if AU wants to trade and do business there. A diplomatic disaster is in the making the longer time goes on.

I had a cursory glance at some of the Indonesian press a bit earlier this morning including some more local stuff in the national language - Bahasa Ibu Kota.

I think it important to say that when reckoning these things, it is important to really do the hard yards and try to come to some reasonable conception of how it is that Indonesians consider this.

Whom do you think you may have offended? Just BaPak Indonesia and his immediate circle, or pretty much everyone?

..

No, "Thieves" they say poppets, "Robbers," "Highwaymen" ..

They are setting the Grass on fire and withering the flowers to defend the Honour of their country and their leaders and to do what their leaders cannot.

It is a matter of damage control now, and best efforts to salvage what may yet still be preserved.

..

*Kevin*

..

This in part is what *BaPak Marty* means when he said "really stupid."

Dear SOG,

I don't watch SBS. However I do the ABC.
Do you ever watch "Q and A?"
And, did you watch
Monday night's program from India?
It was awesome! That program had to be among one of
the best of "Q and A."

In amongst all of this I found myself wondering if I had anything at all in common with Abbott.

What floated to the top was that indeed many years ago I too thought to become involved more closely with the Priests and the Priestesses, though, I am mostly fond of the "Wild Missionary" tales of old, and growing hops with the tribes and that sort of thing.

And the Meritus said to me:

" Your mind's not prepared, I'll see you when you get there. "

..

As it turned out, perhaps it was the tobacco smoking that lead to premature death by stroke and not so long thereafter, I fell into darkness, so to speak, for quite some time.

..

Anyway, I did not know that we have those who suffer from leprosy in Australia, or at least, so I was led to believe recently.

And I wonder, are they being well cared for in accordance with best international practice?

It is tough being a conservative PM on a site full of left leaning posters, in a country with a media so far left they think the center is radical.

Poor old Tony was all apologies the first time he traveled north, & was viciously attacked by media & Labor for being a wimp.

Now it appears he has taken the lefts advice, stood up to our noisy neighbors, & is wrong again.

Of course we all know nothing he does can ever be approved of by the left, & my bet is Tony's having a bit of fun at their expense.

Dear Hasbeen,

Have you ever been right about anything?

Whoops, now Hasbeen has managed to cut across Foxy's bows. That will never do. Sic 'im. LOL

otb,

Don't get too excited. I like and respect
Hasbeen and he knows I'm not serious.

Once you've got the likes of Abbott and Morrison signing off on having a new born ripped off the titty of its mother along with all of the rest of it, you can rest assured, I reckon, that Australia is way off to the right.

And now, the polarity, the flow, so to speak, in Indonesia is being reversed too, and everything is drifting to the right.

All that was needed to be done was to simply play the game .. but now, "matters are worse."

What we are witnessing, whilst significant, is but the interaction of 2 pieces in a much wider global affair.

..

2 other memories come to mind. One, was George W Bush way back when and when asked about so called terrorism and Indonesia replied aggressively:

" ... They better be! ... "

and John Howard, who never would rule out extra territorial incursions if he considered it necessary.

Fancy telling us we are traitors!
Belly,
Let's get things straight here. If the lefties weren't so hell-bent on damaging Abbott then the damage to Indonesian/Australian relations would be non-existing. As just one example Schappelle Corby's chances are suffering because of that immoral undermining attempt on Abbott. There's no apparent concern from the left at the possibility of damage. Why don't those moron lefties who think Abbott should apologise say if Indonesia can proof beyond doubt that it doesn't spy on Australia then yes we should ask Abbott to apologise.
Whatever damage the left does here is damaging all of us not just Abbott. If you think it's worth risking all then I am at a loss what to say.

Hasbeen,

It wasn't about Tones being a wimp.

Well it was in a way...but it was more about him talking tough here and toadying around awkwardly over there.

....but can someone explain to me this:

Why, from Abbott's point of view, would you go out of your way to p!ss off the people who can help you and cooperate with you to stop the boats?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Can anyone explain why swaggering Abbott would adopt that strategy?

Here's' an example of more inflammatory behaviour from LNP connections.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/abusive-tweets-from-top-liberal-party-pollster-20131120-2xvwb.html

"As the government sought to limit damage from the phone-tapping affair, a Liberal Party senior adviser issued a series of racially-loaded remarks about top Indonesian government figures.

The comments threatened to inflame sensitive relations between Canberra and Jakarta at time when Prime Minister Tony Abbott was moving to reassure President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono that Australia regrets any offence caused by the reports of unauthorised phone tapping.

Liberal Party pollster Mark Textor published a succession of abusive comments, with one likening Indonesian Foreign Affairs Minister Marty Natalegawa to a ''1970s Pilipino [sic] porn star''.

In one tweet, since deleted, Mr Textor attacked the Indonesian Foreign Minister.
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''Apology demanded from Australia by a bloke who looks like a 1970s Pilipino [sic] porn star and has ethics to match,'' he tweeted along with the hash-tag ''#Fairfax demands appeasement''."

"Mr Textor has been described as one of the most influential people in Australia. He has himself advocated the use of Twitter by prospective employers as a way of gauging a person's true character."

Very strange behaviour from the "adult" Abbott govt and its associates.

Poirot,
If I had my way this Mark Textor would not be in the LNP anymore. Also digging up such inflammatory articles is not in the interest of better relations. In a word, you're no better than this idiot Textor. Digging up dirt is getting your own hands dirty as well.

Abbott's mouth and Indonesia, is a disaster of massive proportions, Abbott must go. Get a new leader and appologise to the people of Indonesia now.
Abbott can't handle the job, one week and turmoil, he is not comfortable at all. What will this row cost AU.

<<Very strange behaviour from the "adult" Abbott govt and its associates>>

No where near as strange as the spoilt child I-want-my-toy-back tantrum toss we've been subject to from Poirot & little brother 579
since their favourites lost the election.

FGS! hasn't someone got a couple of pacifiers we can give them to suck on.

SPQR..your last post..to this topic
i dont think applied to..you

your other comment

<<..Harking back to this Indonesian admission:

<<the outgoing intelligence chief with agency Badan Intelijen Negara [said]...spies had targeted Australians [tried to recruit Australians]>>

Just an after thought--were you in Indonesia around 2004?
Posted by SPQR, Wednesday, 20 November 2013 9:00:31 AM>>

was right-fully..ignored
as i expect this whole issue will soon..be
lest we forget matters of security..can..become subject to..a black=-out order..ah'la..ironbartrucky

Individual,

"......Also digging up such inflammatory articles is not in the interest of better relations. In a word, you're no better than this idiot Textor. Digging up dirt is getting your own hands dirty as well."

Whadaya mean "inflammatory articles"?

That's what happened.

That's what Textor said.

Those tweets would have been read by the Indonesians quick smart.

The "article" came long after the damage was done.

Textor is the one setting out to inflame the situation.

I see you have a problem with the reporting of facts.

It's called freedom of expression - and it's something we've always valued in our democracy.

SPQR,

But the new govt is soooo full of material.

They're a warped edition of the LNP.

Stay tuned for more : )

<<But the new govt is soooo full of material.>>

You were ranting even before they were sworn in --even before counting had been finalised!

SPQR,

Give Poirot some credit for at least being a teensy bit canny.

The LNP in govt for me were entirely predictable.

Although they've surpassed even my prognostications as to their ineptness, crassness, and secretiveness.

They are an embarrassment.

But they're an entertaining one.

This is the only way I can picture you as "canny":
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/148196643961542593/

Sorry that one didnt work -try this one:
http://tinyurl.com/moxegea

Not sure about the heart but, that might be overdoing it

SPQR,

You're not labouring under the misapprehension that I could actually be bothered to waste energy clicking on yer petty links - are you?

<<You're not labouring under the misapprehension that I could actually be bothered to waste energy clicking on yer petty links>>

And why ever not? you're OLO's specialist in PETTY links.

"See here, Naomi Kliens says yada yada yada ..."

"Look here, the Guardian says yada yada yada ..."

" Take a peek at what this geologist on Skeptical Scientist says yada yada yada ..."

SPQR,

Your "petty" links are in a league of their own.

My links usually pertain to the subject at hand.

Yours, on the other hand, are puerile little digs at me.

That's what you do.

When addressing moi, you rarely address the subject at hand.

You're sole object in such interaction is to attack Poirot with childish critique and petty innuendo.

It's all very well, as it exposes your lack of substance, but let's not pretend you turn up to rebuke me for anything else but that.

Poirot,

If you try reading my posts with both eyes open --rather than through one jaudiced eye, as per your usual practice --you would find they do address the issues and are in fact very enlightening.

But even if I were guilty of what you charge ...and I vehement deny it-- you would be only reaping what you have sewn in abundance.

What you say/project I do to you is what you do to Tony Abbott and Christopher Monckton and Ian Plimer and practically everyone who challenges your narrow half-baked views--so there!

SPQR,

Do I serially jump on to threads to personally critique your style?

You do that to me.

As for Monckton et al...."skeptics" are among the most abusive posters online. They set the standard, therefore necessitating reply in kind.

Abbott and other govt members have been ruthless in abuse and attacks for yonks.

What do you suggest their opponents employ to counter them?

Send in..the..
"Tin Man"

Translation in progress.
Please wait...

Sometimes late..in the game..when things are real
And people share..the gift of gab..between themselves

Some are quick..to take the bait..and release much..pent-up hate
And catch..the perfect prize..that waits among..the shelves..of lies.

But spqr..never did give..nothing..to the Tin Man
That she didn't....*didn't..already have

And be-Cause..never..was the reason..for the leaving
Or..the tropic..of Sir Gala-had.

So please..
believe in me..
''When I say..I'm spinning round"..around round round...run..aground
living Smoke and mirrors....pillars.of cloud..iron-fist..glass..blood stain..bright color..subdued under films of lifes dusts

Image going down,..bringing me down,..bringing you down..down, down
Soapsuds..emit from..my children guts,green like bubbles

Oh,..Ozzzzz..[spqr]..never did give nothing..to poirot
That she didn't,.didn't already have
And Cause never..was the reason..for the levening
fOr the complexity..that spying..ever-had

So please..believe..in me..[seeing..what we see.]
When I say..I'm spinning round, round, round, round
Smoke glass stain bright color..people having heartless goes at one and other

Issue going down,..down, down, down
Soapsuds..green like bubbles..spying..is the real trouble

No,kmow..that Ozpqr..never did give nothing..to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have
And Cause..the topic..never was the reasoning..for the evening
Or the tropic

that the bugging..of Sir Gala-had...
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/11/bill-clinton-nsa-spying-verge-worst-worlds-well-security-privacy.html

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/free-pressfree-of-corporatep.fb1?source=c.fb&r_by=414013

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/11/tpp-nafta-on-steroids.html

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/deflation-stagnation-and-vast-money-printing-operation-fueling-tensions-creating-conditions-for-another-global-financial-crisis/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509123/Malnutrition-cases-DOUBLE-years-poorer-families-struggle-survive-economic-downturn.html

http://torrentfreak.com/we-must-start-punishing-copyright-monopoly-abuse-to-at-least-symmetry-131117/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-18/israel-says-it-s-influencing-debate-on-iran-nuclear-deal.html?

of course i..prefer wooden/heart

"If I Only Had A Heart"

(Tin Man)
When a man's..an empty kettle
He should be..on his mettle
And yet..I'm torn apart

Just because..I'm presumin'
That goyam..could be a human
If..I only had a heart

I'd be tender,..I'd be gentle
And awful sentimental..Regarding love and all thou art

I'd be friends..with the sparrows
And the boy..that threw the stones..

If I only had a heart..Picture me a balcony..scene
like romeo..listening..to julie
Above a voice..sings low

(Snow White.light of de-light])
Wherefore art thou,..Romeo?

(Tin Man)
I hear..a heart beat,..how sweet!

Just.to register emotion,..jealousy,..devotion
And i..really..feel the part

I could stay young..and chipper
And.I'd lock it..with a zipper

If I only..had..a heart
it would beat..louder than a fart..ripping my cheeks apart

if i..only had..a heart..[if..that song-line..rung ya heart]

Cause I don't..have..a wooden heart'
go on..ripp ya cheeks apart..

see a..big-wide faced grin::>;)..just allow
the joke..of it all..to set-in...lets let/go..again..?

I think I see from some males a concern about their own masculinity in the way they troll women posters.
Getting hot this issue too hot and unneeded.
First thing in resolving ANY DISPUTE,is to exclude the radicals on both sides from the discussion.
Then sit and after a BRIEF review if both sides complaints they are put aside and talks continue to reach agreement.
Shouting to and fro never works.
At his point we need true Diplomacy, yes some one will have to take a back ward step. But public comments are now doing further damage and in truth no side in this dispute has clean hands.
But more importantly both sides best interests are served by ending it.

Individual! long ago I gave up looking for civility and understanding from your posts.
To be honest I have formed the opinion you used in the last few words of that post, you mate just do not know much at all, no sin there but from your ivory tower you launch insults on others who in fact do know, far more than you.
If Australia sent some one like you over to resolve this issue we would be at war within an hour.
No side is all wrong or all right.

Foxy>> I don't watch SBS. However I do the ABC.
Do you ever watch "Q and A?"
And, did you watch
Monday night's program from India?
It was awesome! That program had to be among one of
the best of "Q and A."<<

Foxy my dear...Right wingers attack the ABC for their negative America reports during their coverage of Americas wars in the Middle East over the last decade...... I agree with the ABC’s slant.

Right wingers complain that the ABC did and currently does not believe the official 9/11 line..... I agree with the ABC’s slant.

But the ABC must be non partisan when reporting domestic or foreign political issues and they are not.
An example:
During the 2004 US election a presenter on 774 ABC Melbourne said:
“774 ABC Melbourne is, of course, supporting Senator John Kerry in his endeavour to become President of the United States. We can't take sides in Australia, but I've had it from management we can take sides elsewhere in the world. We want Kerry to win.”

So if that is the broadcast view of the ABC, is it representative of Australia? It is representative of my personal beliefs once again...but that is not the point...who elected them as spokesmen for Australia? Not I, I feed the bastards and they have never asked for my views.

Foxy, re your Q&A bouquet....I first watched current affairs in 1961 when 4 Corners first aired....I was 6...it was a case of watch that with the family or go to bed...I watched. In fact I have watched it off and on all my life. I believe it is as close to “representative” of the facts as any reputable news delivering organization globally....I was quite proud of Aunty....no more. Impartiality and trust has evaporated...sucked up with a latte..TBC

I did not see the Q&A thing on India; in fact I will not watch that bias self serving travesty.
The ABC has provided figures which show that the political allegiance of the Q&A audience is, on average:
Coalition 18 per cent;
Australian Labor Party 40 per cent;
Greens 26 per cent.

Why are they running politically biased propaganda as current affairs that represent the views of Australia?
The ABC's defence is that these figures reflect the political engagement of supporters of each side....No Libs turn up....never do....never have ....LOLOLOL..... The ABC has an obligation to select audiences that are an accurate reflection of political support in the electorate as a whole. The ABC is as left as the old Pravda.

Just because it suits many of my thoughts now, will it in the future? Will the far right get their mits on Aunty and turn it into Der Sturmer.

No the ABC is corrupted and I would slash their budget by 30% and dismiss the current management. I would change its articles of association to management by plebiscite...we elect them every time we vote for the senate. That would keep the bastard honest...delivering for all Australians, not just the greens and latte left.

Dear SOG,

And here I was thinking just how objective you
usually are.

BTW - "Q and A," always has a wide mix of people
from all sorts of political ideologies on its
discussion panel. Perhaps you should watch it
every now and again and see for yourself.
It just may broaden your outlook. If I can watch
Question Time in Parliament with the new government
on display in their full glory, and resist the
temptation to give the new Speaker a wedgie - then
you can allow yourself one night of "Q and A"
to see if you'll change your mind.
That's fair.

Foxy, I will take you up on that...re the panel coming from "both" sides....they need a target do they not...it is the audience ratio's that I whinge about.

Dear SOG,

I will watch the audience ratio more closely next
time as well. I had not noticed the large discrepancy
that you claim. However, we'll see on Monday
evening of next week's "Q and A."

That's what happened.
Poirot,
You mean that's what moron Rudd's Government did & you mutts expect Abbott to apologise ? How about an official apology to Indonesia's President from the leader of the opposition ?

It just may broaden your outlook.
Foxy,
If you think Q&A is an informative forum which broadens peoples outlook then you're beyond help.

spying has gone on since time began. The idea is never to admit it. Abbott's big mouth is what is to blame.
The govt; of the day is where the buck stops. This noalition is very shaky, they don't seem to know what to do. Abbott is very uncomfortable, almost frightened. I wouldn't be surprised if they abdicate.
Hockey is out of his depth, interesting times.

Hasbeens view, a site full of lefty posters, is hugely funny but too concerning.
See it,like much we are hearing from the Tea Party Tony tribe is exactly the opposite to truth.
Others wade in aiming ALL THE BLAME at others.
We know the extremes are at work in both country,s.
We know, or should, only true Diplomacy not anger and heat will fix it, and that it must be fixed and soon.
Remember the basics, we spyed on the leader of this country and his wife.
Is that true? not really we had their numbers and tried but no evidence has yet came that we did hear a word.
Why did we do this, to what gain, did we do it on behalf of America? why did they have an apparent log of Australian spying activity's?
Is the Australian spy force an agent of Americas
Diplomacy is the answer but the questions are many.
Some here who blast away at all involved are part of the problem not the solution.

Abbott's big mouth is what is to blame.
579,
silly me, here I was thinking it was the academic leftie morons who had the big mouth because it's them who bleat this scandal at every moment a camera is turned on & every blog & article written by them. Thank you for correcting us that it was Abbott who caused all this. Why only a couple of days ago I saw a professor from a Victorian university saying how it is all Abbott's fault despite the fact that it was moron Rudd's gang who did the spying & wasn't smart enough to keep it under wraps. Some intellectuals indeed, Gawd !

individual,

Your last post is hilarious.

Where were you during the last election when the right-wing Murdoch press was actually in the business of printing election banners for the LNP on their front pages - almost daily.

The press is obviously going to be interested in this type of ineptitude from the govt.

Guess what?...when one assumes the mantle of head honcho, like Abbott has done - he's expected to possess of a modicum of diplomatic skill.

That we a appear to have a PM without that talent is obvious.

Do you think Aussies should have to continue to rely on the Jakarta Post for our news regarding regional issues?

Don't you like a free press?

Don't you like a free press?
Poirot,
I'd love a free press just as would love freedom of expression but sadly, our free press is like our democracy, it isn't what it says. When do you ever see a newspaper article written by an ordinary person ? It's all indoctrinated academic pseudo intellectual morons who do the writing whilst wearing blinkers.
Why does the left get so much air time when the pragmatists don't get any at all ? Anyhow, none of this is answering the question as to when Bill Shorten will apologise to President Yudhoyono.

When was Bill Shorten declared Australia's leader?

Bottom line, individual, is that when you put up your hand for the top job, you're expected to show leadership, diplomacy and skill in the myriad challenges that one is likely to face in such an exalted position.

Abbott has displayed none of these qualities so far.

(I'll give you a brownie point for including the word "moron" in your post above...It wouldn't be a post from you without it:)

I'll also add that if you wish to see "ordinary people" writing articles, you'll have to go the more independent press online - the sort of sites that get slagged off around here as garbage.

@Poirot,

<< Do you think Aussies should have to continue to rely on the Jakarta Post for our news regarding regional issues?>>

The only ones relying on the Jakarta Post is you--and then only when it suits!

You postings are getting more and more hysterical

SPQR,

"You postings are getting more and more hysterical"

I see you continue to have nothing to add to the subject matter of this thread : (

But thanks once again for the daily update on my style.

What would the good folk of OLO do without you?

: )

If you post on OLO you are fair game -there is no protective zone around you!

Cheers

SPQR,

"If you post on OLO you are fair game -there is no protective zone around you!"

My dear, I'm well aware of that.

I'm reasonably opinionated around here and I accept that counter arguments will be posted in response.

I'm also aware that no substance trolls like yerself will get their jollies waffling on about my style.

Part of the game....

<< My dear...>>
Now if Loudmouth had said that...

<< waffling on about my style>>
Maybe because most of your posts are all style and no substance.

Its a bit of a hill billy heaven reading some of the posts.
So lets be clear I remember the Murders of our reporters, who wants to comment about a current leaders role?
Too the take over of Dutch colony that should have been free not gifted by the UN , still today I think the latter should be part of its eastern half .
And still feel the Murders should be punished.
There got the red neck words out of my system.
But it is not the act of spying, not those who found and used the information that hurts.
It is the public announcements of that spying.
IF we continue to look for reasons not to say sorry this issue will hurt for a very long time.

Poirot, I am amazed at the way a few posts back you were attacking Abbott saying
he was undiplomatic. No one could critise anything he has said about
Indonesia as PM. His words have been very diplomatic.

Frankly, I think you should take a Bex and have a nice lie down.
I am not the only one to notice it. Please take it easy.

"....No one could critise anything he has said about
Indonesia as PM. His words have been very diplomatic...."

Well, ho, ho, ho.

Sorry, Bazz, but just because he feeds the Australian electorate chicken feed - and they naively gulp it down - doesn't mean he can get away with the same tactic diplomatically.

He's a font of weasel sentiment - and those words aren't even his.

He reads "important" statements out on the floor. Statements which have been prepared by his masters.

If it was left to him, he'd be babbling in three word slogans - which would be worse.

So his paper-thin Clayton's "diplomacy" is seen for what it is by the Indonesians.

I have no intention of taking a Bex.

The Abbott govt is the "greatest show on earth".

I thought it would be entertaining, but I had no idea that the ineptitude would be so universal, and the material so free flowing.

I'm stocking up on popcorn for the next installment

Amazing !
You are just making it up, dear oh dear.
Never mind.

It's a circus of a saddening lack of ability. Bishop should have demised long ago. It's a shame we have a diplomatic row with our nearest trading neighbor, thanks to the mouth of our undiplomatic prime minister.
They have pulled off a con job on the AU people. Three word slogans and outright lies won the day. The world must see our govt; as a laugh a minute. Everybody knew Abbott was not the right person for PM and yet we voted for his absolute ramblings that made no sense at all

Get a load of Tones waxing lyrical on our relationship with Indonesia - before the election.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J126Q5w1A7g

Same old, same old, he's telling Gillard what she should be doing regarding that nation.

Little did we know that his lack of diplomacy would render the relationship in tatters so early on his watch.

It would be correct to assume that any alleged spying equipment and protocols were in place durin the long years of Kevin Rudd's and Julia Wahtshernames' watch. Bob Brown, Christine Milne and other senior Greens would also have been aware, especially through their favoured treatment as Julia's partners.

Abbott is shouldering the criticism of the whining Left for the alleged actions and policies of their own mob, Labor and the feckless Greens, while they were in government.

Dear Bazz,

Talking about "diplomacy?"

Here's something that's not made up and this article
also appeared in The Sydney Morning Herald:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/dont-quote-me-says-tony-but-maaate-8230-20130816-2s1zy.html

Foxy,
Thanks for posting this link. It's a welcome proof that Tony is a bloke unlike the asexuals in the ALP.

Foxy,

Here's Clarke and Dawe on the present state of things in OZ.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/clark-and-dawe-ministerial-responsibility-coming/5108010

: )

When was Bill Shorten declared Australia's leader?
Poirot,
He is presently the leader of the party whose Government did the spying, correct ? So let that silly mutt blabber out an apology to the President of Indonesia, to the people of Australia & to our present Prime Minister.
I fail to see why Abbott should have to apologise after taking over a broke system as well.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

Great as always.

individual,

"I fail to see why Abbott should have to apologise after taking over a broke system as well."

Well Mr Abbott appears to be thrilled to claim credit for slowing the boats - even though it was Labor's Manus operation that did it. If he's keen to take on that mantle, I see no reason for him (or you) to complain about anything else that was in place before the LNP took office.

Bottom line is that Abbott is the Prime Minister.

Certain responsibilities come with that role - and one of them is lumping situations which you may inherit from your predecessors and those who preceded them.

What you don't do is deliberately maintain a recalcitrant position - which "you know" will inflame the situation and/or offend your neighbour and major trading partner.

What Mr Abbott and his masters have achieved is to shred our relationship with Indonesia. They have done it willfully, employing weasel words and sentiments to add insult to injury.

They are rank amateurs at diplomacy - but professionals at screwing things up.

I offer the advice , no one asked me to however it is there to be seen if we look.
Indy has never shown he understands anything, why wrestle with him.
And like every one can see this issue is going to continue and too to hurt innocent victims.
Victims like live beef exports.
Like more drowned at sea because we are about to be boycotted in many areas.
We, me for sure could put thousands of words to paper about wrongs done by another country.
I think Indonesians current leader was in charge of troops who MURDERED our press men.
BUT heaping wood on the fire is no answer, Bill Shorten is using words of a statesman, Abbott those of a Street pug.
If the issue dividing us was say live beef exports.
You Betcha we would be well in to Diplomacy.
We must use those weasel words of Diplomacy, openly and privately, they mean nothing but allow both sides to save face, saving face is both the reason Indonesia is rightfully angry and too why Abbott did not dump it back in Labors lap and say not me mate.
Time we grew up.
Time, now or soon will compare Tea Party Tony,s rabbling actions to Shortens Statesman like crafted thinking and acting in this matter.

belly..if tony..did dump..it..into..bill's lap..
bill would dump-it back rightfully..into little/johnnies lap

mate the roots of this paranoia..go right back
but its never before gotten..this close to the root cause
think..ol mate..the worlds..intel agencies KNOW..who has been good
[and is listening..to find..out who..has been bad..and found..noone is without the original sin

family wealth[hidden..in secret trusts]..was wrought
off the misery..of so many..*others..[but mate..WHAT was done..to the LEAST..of us..was done too..unto god*

i got no time for religiousness..rote/ritual either..belly

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

It is much easier to damn other
than to look at oneself..and ones mates
or..what the group..that one belongs to..is responsible for.

but god..is getting hurt badly..
as ever/more of us..live in poverty

are..we..correctly pointing out..
that..we see the errors..of other

when..of higher purpose..we could expose..the main cause
[by the inspiration..of mates...the herd mind/..ego/..]

which..perverts..our..own ego-bias
[ego=herd]/mind-bias..]

how do..i decide..what..is true
of the heart[earned..by heard-mind]

from that..from the herd-mind..[ego]..?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176858

[its sort..of..a guide
for..our worlds leaders..];[and their shillzz]
to see we all got our blind sight..and own..versions of hind-sight

that..what..*they..[we]..do to..us/them
me and you..them..or..just-us..

they do to..god..and jesus..too.

What is 'under one god' smoking?

One commentator said that the Labour Governments cabinet central group
would have had to approve the bugging of the Indonesian Presidents phone.
I don't *know* if that is true but it does sound feasible.
I wonder if Tony Abbott has asked Yudiono if the Indonesian's have
stopping bugging Australian politician's phones ?
I would love to see the answer to that question.

If all military co-operation has stopped that must mean Australian
warships cannot enter Indonesian waters.
Therefore Australian Naval ships cannot rescue sinking boats as they
would be too far away.
If that was nade known illegals would not get on the boats.

Bazz, "One commentator said that the Labour Governments cabinet central group would have had to approve the bugging of the Indonesian Presidents phone"

Ex-PMs Kevin Rudd and Julia Whatshername and their Greens sidekicks in government, Bob Brown and Christine Milne, would invoke the security edict of not confirming or denying that, which by lucky coincidence protects them while allowing Labor and Greens attack dogs to have free rein.

Abbott's apology letter is on it's way to Indonesia. Now we wait to see if the Indonesian PM accepts it or not. Cattle exports are on the line, so the letter will have to be what's expected.
Taking the heat out of the people of Indonesia could be something else again. This should have been cleared up far earlier than now. Which ever way this goes it is going to cost dearly.
With Abbott's lack of diplomatic skills, it's going to be a torrid time in the history of AU.
With AU in the chair of the G20 shortly another fiasco no doubt will erupt.

Dear Bazz,

Where have we heard recently about Ministers not answering
questions for "security reasons?"
Sound familiar?

Foxy,

Surely you are not expecting anyone to believe that ex-PMs Kevin Rudd and Julia Whatshername and their Greens sidekicks in government, Bob Brown and Christine Milne, did not have access to information on intelligence polices, arrangements and protocols?

Would you like to venture reasons why they are forthcoming on what applied to Indonesia during their long watch?

otb,

I'm not suggesting anything of the kind.
Simply asking Bazz a question - if you'd
bothered to read my post you'd know that.
Stop twisting things and making wrong assumptions.
It's not a good look.

Foxy, "I'm not suggesting anything of the kind"

Good to know, then presumably you do not dispute that ex-PMs Kevin Rudd and Julia Whatshername and their Greens sidekicks in government, Bob Brown and Christine Milne, would have had access to information on intelligence polices, arrangements and protocols. Especially regarding Indonesia one would imagine, it being so often in the news following the truly stupid decision by Rudd to dump Howard's policy.

That answers your question, because plainly Kevin Rudd, Julia Whatshername and the awful Greens leaders knew about, or ought to have known about the security policies, arrangements and protocols in respect of Indonesia and other countries for that matter. Kevin Rudd and Julia Whatshername were frequent international tourists and to Asia, so they would most certainly received briefings anyway.

Foxy,

Do you need me to underline the obvious, that Rudd, Ms Whatshername and the awful Greens said squat and kept silent on on any existing security arrangements? Or do you expect that they really ought to have broadcast what they knew (and still know)? They didn't confirm or deny and in fact said nil, which is the opposite of what you are now demanding of the PM and government who have inherited the mess of their making.

otb,

We don't really know do we?

You can assume all you like.

I prefer to wait until all the facts are in.

It's an occupational habit.

otb,

I've just read your second post.
I missed it previously.

The difference between the previous government and
this one is that the previous one did not hide
behind "security reasons," on very direct, specific
questions that had nothing to do with "security."
This one has gagged its ministers and they precisely
that, especially in Question Time in Parliament which
beggars belief and goes against the democratic tradition.

"Security Reasons" are supposed to be genuine - and not
used as a pretext not to have to answer questions.
And you can twist that anyway you like and accuse me of
all sorts of things as you usually do. You're such a
charmer that way!

I am reasonably sure even Prime Ministers are not told just what the two spy groups we have are doing.
We have one for internal spying and the international one.
Now is anyone thinking ranting and raving will solve this?
Not Howard OUG it is fair in the middle of Rudd,s first go round.
I question again did he even know.
We are in danger of this heating beyond easy fixes.
We can not let our trade links suffer *live cattle* the first victim.
We know, or should,Indonesian police and army make cash out of sending refugees, not stopping them.
Why risk ten thousand in a month?
Shorten has offered by partisanship on this issue.
Abbott and Bill should go as soon as possible and say sorry.
And as Diplomacy allowes tell honest thoughts about the Murders of East Timor.
And our Murdered TV reporters, we if it comes to it can settle the issue or turn a growing friend/market into an enemy quite capable of threatening us.

belly..GLOBALLY..spying jumped hugely..post 911
you may recall we were talking..back then..about..'shovel ready/jobs'
funny enough.,.these shovel ready jobs were mainly screening at..airports..and building a new beast called homeland 'security'

this was when..howard..proved he wernt a coward
by going into sadam/insane..land..[iraq]....and alfgoana-stan..
to put in..the pipeline for busche seniors mates..anyhow..

thats when..security became king
for the war monger war machine

way better than..the school/book..1984..ever hoped
the pigs in-the ;animal-farm'..did their thing..[and still are]

Belly, "I am reasonably sure even Prime Ministers are not told just what the two spy groups we have are doing."

Is that so? To whom do you reckon they are accountable and who approves the funding? Maybe the media might form opinions otherwise at times especially because government is unlikely to confirm or deny.

This PM (Julia Whatshername) seems to have had something to do with 'those' groups,
http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/451494/pm_commits_1_46_billion_improving_cyber_security_networks/

This PM too (Kevin Rudd),
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-23/asio-headquarters-opens-in-canberra/4837858

and Labor wrote ASIO's Charter. Here is what Mr Rudd said,

"The Chifley government wrote the charter for ASIO in 1949.

"For all the years that now separate us from Ben Chifley's Australia and ours, his vision for the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation has survived the passage of time," Mr Rudd said.

"The end of the Cold War did not end the threat of espionage and terrorism. We depend on ASIO to protect our democratic freedoms, to deal with terrorism and to combat espionage."

[link given above]

I think President "Bang Bang" is pulling your strings

He is cleverly using the spying fiasco
as a smoke screen, because Australia was starting to ask
a lot of questions about the people smuggling trade(questions
that should have been asked years ago)
about Indonesian involvement in the lucrative money side
of people smuggling involving Indonesian officials.

Why a highly militarised country like Indonesia has no navy
ships patrolling the waters where asylum boats regularly
launch into the ocean? Shock horror could it be that
Indonesia is deliberately turning a blind eye to sinking boats
and drowning people.

President Yudiono Bang bang, said on the news to Tony
Abbot the other night "Don't expect Indonesia to co-operate with Australia to stop the people smuggling boats. That immediately confirmed my suspicions about the game he is playing."

Those questions were putting Indonesia in the hot seat lately
What a great chance to divert attention the spying affair is.
And how the left wing Indonesian suck-ups fall for it hook, line
and sinker.

You are much smarter than they are "Bang Bang."

Cherful,

Good post.

Also, having taken Mr Rudd for what they could get they want more sweets please. It is about money too.

BUT heaping wood on the fire is no answer
Belly,
I could not agree more with that. That's what the journalists & academic morons are doing with this issue.

Shock horror could it be that Indonesia is deliberately turning a blind eye to sinking boats
and drowning people.
Cherful,
Definitely not. That would go totally against the agenda.

Foxy said;
Dear Bazz,

Where have we heard recently about Ministers not answering
questions for "security reasons?"
Sound familiar?

Not sure what you are on about there.
Assuming you are referring to Rudd & Gillard, then I would be annoyed
if they were silly enough to admit they did know about the tap on Yudiono's phone.
Gillard's intervention into the controversy was really bad form as it
could be construed as an apology.
I was not expecting them to confess. You seem to be taking the
opportunity to be throwing barbs at everyone in sight.

OTB I rarely engage with you.
Not hiding that.
Your pot boiling posts erk me.
But just for your information a past Attorney General Lynol Bowen *infamously raided ASIO*
To find out what they had been up to.
I without doubt could post 100 posts here telling of things Indonesia has done that we all would find wrong.
Another hundred could be written telling of Keitings and for that matter Howard,s courtship of that country.
*In the interests of this country*.
Unfortunately we did spy on their leaders wife and him and others in government by trying to listen to their mobile phone.
Then because America is America an unstable contractor who never should have held that job seeks notoriety!
Then? as was sure to happen *as is sure to happen again before the big mouthed idiot and his half witted Russian Masters silence him more revelations are to come.
Do we jump up and down heating and doing further harm or do we just say sorry and end it?
Of late a few posters target me, for telling the very few what they hear from others.
Some must first confront them selves comments are free, for all of us.

Belly,

It is a blow up as CHERFUL said

onthebeach,
It is a sickening blow-up by OUR own & Indonesia can now feign indignation to no end. It is the Rudd Government's fault & Abbott should apologise to Indonesia by making it extremely clear that it is the present Government who now has the unenviable job of sorting out that idiot's mess.
And yes Belly is spot-on on this one.

True, it is a Ruddy mess.

The buck stops with the govt; of the day. Not to forget it was Abbott's bug mouth admitting to it.

I love the way Libs prance around as if they're holier than thou and born to rule, etc.

When the reality is that they're as shady as they come.

Here's a bit of background concerning Lib polster, Mark Textor, courtesy of Senator Faulkner.

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=CHAMBER;id=chamber/hansards/1999-03-31/0032;query=Id:%22chamber/hansards/1999-03-31/0027%22

What a grotty outfit.

We
re not disputing the fact that it is the Government of the day that has to deal with it. What we are disputing is the other fact which is that now the morons who support the other morons are now making the situation worse by the minute as Belly pointed out so rightly. Isn't the situation bad enough for you morons to do your darndest to make it worse ? Stop raving on about it & offering Indonesia ideas how to prolong it.
Don't you morons have any integrity & don't you give any consideration to the future for all of us ? If you're so desperate to go down the gurgled then do without dragging us into it. MORONS !

individual,

Well I don't want to give you a big head and reward you for writing the word "moron" five times in one post...

(You're excelling yourself today)

"Stop raving on about it & offering Indonesia ideas how to prolong it."

That is very funny...you think the Indonesians are taking their umbrage from us?

What about Lib diehard, Mark Textor, adding his own insult? - I see you have no criticism of him.

Likening senior Indonesian politicians to 1970's Pilipino [sic] porn stars is hardly going to win friends and influence people.

Shines a light on the thickness of Libs though.

Abbott, is a diplomatic disaster - that is the sole problem.

Whoever wrote him his lines and gave him his orders are babes in the diplomatic woods.

Incompetents.

What did Abbott think was going to happen after admitting the allegations in parliament. Telling the Indonesians what they should be doing before the election, went against the grain. Turn back the boats, buy up the boats, Tow back, without telling the Indonesians first. This could be just the excuse they were looking for to get their own back at Abbott. Abbott was in to saying anything, to con the people of AU.

OTB you ask to be told, in the same terms you tell the world.
But can you consider returning to your home town?
Its a little village and is missing its occupant with a far lessor IQ than every one else.
*We will say sorry* may already have, because we have more to gain by doing that than not.
Some part of our sorry will have to be public ,as the release of this information was.
Abbott had his chance, look at the facts, he could have dumped it on Labor/Rudd, he did not, he went for the macho man answer he now owns it.
I think he showed bravery, but we can not dump on others, before the election after it, he mixed his signals.
He crawled to Indonesia then shouted to them.
Our country must lead in Diplomacy, all the more if the other side has lost its way because it is nearly in election mode.
We are bettor for having a friend as neighbor than enemy

Poirot,
No matter how hard you try & how many links you can drag up on some Liberal being stupid, the undeniable fact is that no two wrongs will ever make a right.

Poirot,
Your link about Mark Textor is from the goose about the gander.

Good morning Individual, please think about yet another attempt to make peace.
Can you read your last few posts here.
Just for a second credit me with those words.
And pretend they are aimed at you.
thanks.
Issue is bubbling away *in public* press as always is looking for another headline and will even after it is resolved continue to dig.
But Diplomacy is taking place, from both sides.
So maybe we can relax.

Dear Individual,

Talking about ganders.

Here's a different take on an early
Australian Nursery rhyme:

Gossey Goosey Gander
Whither do you wander?
You're out of your depth in politics
And you can't help but flounder.

Stay out of foreign affairs Mr Abbott.

For those who think we can make friends with Indonesia.
Indonesia is not our friend, never has been our
friend and never will be our friend. Fullstop.

All the smarmy diplomacy in the world will never alter
that fact. Yudiono has elections coming up soon
in Indonesia, what better way to be re-elected than to
tap into the Indonesian people's dislike of Australians
an appear to be a hero by standing up to the Australians,

It is a double win for Yudiono as now he can refuse to have
anything to do with stopping the asylum boats, thus allowing the Indonesians to continue on their merry way,
creaming off the hundreds of thousands of dollars every month,while Australia remains the silly victim and patsy in the whole operation.

I bet he and his fellow compatriots have a huge laugh about it
when they sit around a table in a private room talking
about Australia and the people smugglers.

CHEERFUL OK but do you understand Diplomacy has never been about friend ship.
Do we want the opposite? can we gain by continuing the shouting or is it worth while maintaining our links pre the release of the information.
Solutions exist and even if we continue to remind our selves both sides offend, and dig up the past to prove it is that worth while.
We will say sorry, then both country,s will continue to spy on each other.
After the election based on internal reports, another government will take over, maybe one that does not want our links.
The longer this goes viral the more Abbott,s teams inability to act with Diplomacy will be seen.

Belly, "The longer this goes viral the more Abbott,s teams inability to act with Diplomacy will be seen"

Your closing sentence demonstrates the idiocy of the Left and cynicism of the media.

They all know better, or should know better, but the temptation to stir, score shabby political points, or as in the case of the media, appeal to their dumbed-down audiences, is too strong. Speaking of dumbed-down audiences, there seems to be little difference between the audience stupidity of ABC (eg Tony Jones' show) and the equally stupid audiences of the tabloid media.

There are so many people about who really need their daily adrenaline fix from faux shock, horror and indignant rage. Although some probably believe the stuff!

Aunty was very different many years ago. Now the 'journalists' are personalties, have 'attitude', an obvious political slant and make the news. No difference between the ABC and the commercials. The ABC isn't accountable to its shareholders though. It is time to combine the SBS and ABC. Put the savings into hospitals, dental care, anything needed.

Belly,
I can see your point, there may be times when
diplomacy has some advantage.

When there may at least be some chance of co-operation
between the two countries over some issues that may
arise.

I dislike it however when people use words like
Friends and friendship between Indonesia and Australia
because I just don't believe it. Call it co-operation
or diplomatic agreement but not friendship. We see precious
little co-operation from Indonesia anyway.

Dear CHERFUL,

Did you happen to see Spooner's cartoon - in
The Saturday Age, November 23, 2013?

He had Mr Abbott saying to the Indonesian
President, "I'm sorry Mr President but I
cannot apologise.

To which the Indonesian President replies,
"You have made us Lose Face.
How will we ever Dominate West Papua or
Menace East Timor again."

A bit late to this, never mind.

"The Indos are not going to co-operate on refugees any more."

Arrr. Well, they never have, have they. They say that their Navy isn't equipt to deal with picking up refugees.

Here is a list of their Navy strength. Ref: Janes.

Frigates. 6
Corvettes. 26
Submarines. 5
Patrol Craft. 44
Patrol Boats. 9
Minesweepers. 12
L.S.T.s. 38
Fast Missile Boats. 38
Other Ancillary Ships. 24

Here are the Patrol Boats that Australia has Donated & delivered. These are the Patrol Boats Australia patrolled & picked up refugees with in the Indian Ocean, until we handed them to the Indo's.

HMAS Bandolier. now, KSI Siliman.
HMAS Barricade. now, KSI Sigalu.
HMAS Acute. now, KSI Silea.
HMAS Bombard. now, KSI Siribua.
HMAS Attack. now, KSI Sikuda.
HMAS Assail. now, KSI Siqurot.
HMAS Ardent. now, KSI Tenggiri.

If the Indo's aren't going to use these Patrol Boats for what we gave them to them for. I wonder if we can get them back?

They're lying again & we fall for it every time for the sake of Diplomacy & Political Correctness.

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for the laugh, I didn't see that one.
Good to find some light-heartedness in the situation.

OTB! from the ant hill of the very far bright, from the even smaller hill of your understanding, know I am not of the left.
Those who think so, after reading my posts over time are uninformed.
See the ranters have arrived.
As said way back up the post *resolving any dispute* needs to exclude the past and the wrongs at some time.
I think in the real world that is taking place behind the scenes.
Diplomacy is not wrong, 500 years of using it clearly proves it is of use.
I think we are running behind the true Government to Government Diplomacy taking place.
But question why have the ranters not turned on America?
Not considered was our action done on behalf of that country?
Why have we stepped around the truth this leak did not come via Australia but America.

Dear CHERFUL,

I'm glad I could provide some laughs.
Heaven knows we could all use them at times.

Cheers my dear.

Any observer of the thread will understand why Diplomacy was invented.
Another way of addressing issues that left unresolved could lead to even war.
Left in our hands [most who contributed] no resolution would ever come.
International Diplomacy works.
Complex issue, our comments proved that if nothing else.

Spying is not always a complex issue... though its consequences can be.

Spying (like adultery) by its very nature is secret and there is no problem.

It is only when the other 'interested party' finds out about it that there are problems... and, like adultery, the consequences can escalate from nation states' equivalents of arguments, recriminations, separation, reconciliation, stalking, custodial arrangements, division of assets, divorce and (not so domestic) violence.

Wm Trevor as is the case nearly all the time your words make sense.
But on this issue complex sure fits.
why and how did America, the source of this leaks get our spying information.
2 Why did Abbott not dump it on Labor
3 Why would we need the mans wife words taped.
I could go on, from the first day my radar warned this could blow up, we saw some true fire lighting here and in the medea.
Too some junk comment on both sides aimed at further distancing in both country,s.
I never doubted in time a Diplomatic answer would come, not quite here yet but well under way.

I see to-day Malaysia has accused Singapore of spying on them. I guess Malaysia has never forgiven them from separating in the 60's.

Which reminds me. Malaysia has been spying on Indonesia since the War in the 60's. I was there.

This is all just rhetoric BS to get a little bit of one upmanship. Like the paper says to day, "Why didn't Abbott get the ALP to apologise, after all it happened on their shift.

jayb you have the ability to undermine your own words.
Every one spys yes it was under Labors watch.
But even after this is resolved it will continue.
Quoted today from the same source is America spys on 6 Islamic extremists.
Bet you, like me, would be very angry if they did not.
Abbott knew he could wash his hands and dump on Labor, but he understands he too has no intention of ever changing anything other than using Diplomacy to its fullest to cover the fact both sides spy and will continue to.
A former PM yesterday said he did not have a hands on understanding of what our spys do

Belly: But even after this is resolved it will continue.
Bet you, like me, would be very angry if they did not.

Will it continue? Of course it will. Will everyone feign indignation? Of course they will. It's all part of Diplomacy. It's BS & we all know it, even those feigning indignation.

I still think they should give all of our Boats back if they are not going to use them for what we gave them to the Indo's for. Don't you.

HMAS Bandolier. now, KSI Siliman.
HMAS Barricade. now, KSI Sigalu.
HMAS Acute. now, KSI Silea.
HMAS Bombard. now, KSI Siribua.
HMAS Attack. now, KSI Sikuda.
HMAS Assail. now, KSI Siqurot.
HMAS Ardent. now, KSI Tenggiri.

I wonder if these were included in the total Amount of Aid we give them.

jayb you get your self in a sweat over nothing.
The gifted boats from both sides are for a reason.
Are you aware Howard for good reasons gifted that country the most.
Yes spying will continue, both sides will smile but pick each others pockets.
Abbott, gee the pain! is getting it right! gee that hurt! no not true.
Trogan horse was a gift.
Our reasons? *bribery* we want and need help in stopping the boats.
We want and need as much as the air we breath the largest Muslim Nation in the world, population not area, to remain a Democracy.

Belly: jayb you get yourself in a sweat over nothing.

Nah! not getting in a sweat. Just pointing out a few live facts.

Belly: The gifted boats from both sides are for a reason.

I suppose they are. We give them our perfectly good Patrol Boats that we have been patrolling their waters with looking for Refugee Boats. Boats they say they can't use to patrol their 200 NM Sea space.

We get targets for the navy when we sink them after taking the people off them. Is that how it works?

Belly: Are you aware Howard for good reasons gifted that country the most.

Yes.

Belly: Yes spying will continue, both sides will smile but pick each other's pockets.

Of course.

Belly: Abbott, gee the pain! is getting it right! gee that hurt! no not true.

Yeah, I know. It's all spin for the Media.

Belly: Trogan horse was a gift.

?

Belly: Our reasons? *bribery* we want and need help in stopping the boats.
We want and need as much as the air we breathe the largest Muslim Nation in the world, population not area, to remain a Democracy.

Of course we do, but they are having a lend of us & we all know it.

They don't want the boats to stop because the majority of refugees are Muslims from troubled areas of the World & they don't want them in their country. They are having enough trouble with the Muslim Fanatics in Ache. They want to pack as many Muslims into Australia as they can to turn Australia into a Muslim Caliphate. Therefore they pretend to be helping. when in fact they're not & our Governments Political Correctness falls for it every time by trying to appease the Green Do-gooder Minority.

You have Buckly,s of ever becoming a Diplomatic core employee jay b.
And fail to see both sides, for decades, have looked for better links with Indonesea.
I just love! the habitual branding of all things thought,wrongly here, as Labor /greens.
More often than not it points to lack of knowledge and understanding.
Research J W Howards interactions with Indonesia and his gifts.
PLEASE do not come back withthe4 thought the man is a leftist greeny!

Belly: You have Buckly,s of ever becoming a Diplomatic core employee jayb.

Too right. I don't see why Australia has to lie on its back like a submissive dog for Indonesia.

Belly: And fail to see both sides, for decades, have looked for better links with Indonesia.

A bit scrambled, but I'll try. I do see both sides, but what I see is frightening. Indonesia has Australia by the b@lls with our trade links. They say, " You give us AID & gifts (bribes for the top people) & we'll keep buying from you. If you don't we'll cut off you trade access & you'll be stuffed."

Is Australia paying the Indonesians to buy our products? Seems like a strange way to do business.

Belly: I just love! the habitual branding of all things thought, wrongly here, as Labor/Greens. More often than not it points to lack of knowledge and understanding.

I follow no Party & I brand all things as I see them, regardless. All sides have their good & bad points. As far as knowledge & understanding goes, having lived intimately with the people in parts of Sth. East Asia, I have a reasonable understanding of how their minds works & they will rip you off as fast as they can. Bargaining is their way of life. They bargain for everything, Even for the morning cuppa at the local food stall on wheels. Australians don't do that as a way of life so we are behind the 8 ball when it comes to bargaining. There are 3 prices in Sth. East Asia. Local price, (really cheap) foreigners that live there & can speak the language (about 2/3ds more) & tourists price (ripped of big time) To the Indo's, Australia is treated as a Tourist. They think of it like a sport & have a great time ripping off the Tourist.

Belly: Research J W Howards interactions with Indonesia and his gifts.

See above.

Belly: PLEASE do not come back with the 4 thought the man is a leftist greeny!

You've lost me again. What man?

jay b sorry but it did not work!
You put together a post that is in truth a self satisfied smirk.
An attempt to make my lack of grammar and sentence construction look bad too failed.
UNDERSTANDING WON!
My understanding that you just do not understand.
IF we all spoke like you on this issue we could never resolve this issue.
In fact your words and actions could start a war.
Howard funded Schools, in part to ensure a good education for as many as is possible.
So less Radical Islamic education takes place.
I can endlessly tell of past concerns but it is not productive .
Leaving the hate behind is first step in looking for better relation ships, on any issue.

Here's a really complex question for "OUR" ABC.

When the ABC got reports about Oz spying on Indonesia --after sitting on it for a month or two-- it decided to make a full disclosure. Stuff the damage! after all, it was "in the public interest"

However,a couple of years back some cartoons depicting a certain religious figure were very much the centre of public interest, yet the same forthright --and fearless--ABC chose NOT to publish --see here:
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/BaldingResp.pdf

Come now Aunty what is the real criteria you use to determine what should be published?

Dear SPQR,

Now you're simply stirring.

As your given link tells us:

"The ABC - like other media organisation has to make
decisions about the inclusion or otherwise of material
in programs and stories every day..."

However in this particular case the ABC reported on
the issue, but they felt that it wasn't essential
to include explicit depictions of the original cartoons.

As stated in the link: "The ABC behaved responibly and
appropriately while still contuing to provide key
information to the community. "

Their decision is consistent with the actions of a
responsible media organisation.

Belly: An attempt to make my lack of grammar and sentence construction look bad too failed.

Sorry Belly. You are normally one of the more articulate one's on here. It wasn't a go at you for that at all. I just thought you'd been on the Pi$$ or something. ;-) I must say you seem angry at the moment & not only at me.

I understand Howards attempt to give the Indo kids a proper education rather than at a Madras. What happens is though is the Indo Government doesn't fund those schools to the same extent as thy did before & it's left up to Australian Aid. They then pump their money that should have gone to schools into Madrasses. It makes a good Photo Op for the Government but it doesn't do much for the kids. Australia pumps Aid into Indonesia it takes the place of the normal funding they would have provided. That is what happens.

Belly: Leaving hate behind.

I really don't hate anybody or anything. I am extremely cautious though, of Muslims & people with a serious mental disability because I have had dealings with both. Which leads into SPQR's post.

SPQR: Come now Aunty what is the real criteria you use to determine what should be published?

The first criteria is to sell papers by any means possible. The ABC would have been told not to publish the Cartoon by the Government Advisors, most likely something to do with Diplomacy at the time, I guess.

SPQR and arjay,you must be kidding.
A free and open press, not the Murdock crime syndicate, is surely what we all want.
I should not be surprised.
After all it now is Government policy,s not to tell us much if anything.
So in one stroke its ABC and the Guardian who bought this about?
They, apparently should report only innocuous stuff.
The public has no right to know.
Know our partner in crime America had our spy details on hand.
Know the fool being given a home by the pumped up idiot running Russia.
And we should not have been told many truths?
Gents do you think we should adopt the North Korean Model?
Think about your words and then tell me we did not have the right to know

Interesting.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-28/missbach-indonesian-cooperation/5122470

Dear Jayb,

Thanks for the link.

As you stated - "Interesting,"
indeed!

It was an interesting link jayb thanks.
I remind you of the word complex, this issue is far more than stopping the boats.
I doubt that played any role in Howards thoughts when gifting that country.
Keiting too seemed to nearly crawl when addressing its leaders.
Diplomacy has many heads and many reasons to exist.
It has been in use in the western world at least, for hundreds of years.

Kevin Rudd made a dreadful mess of Indonesian/Australian relations by trashing John Howard's successful Pacific solution, causing thousands of economic migrants to swarm through Indonesia as their free stop and place to link with their people smuggler travel agents on their way to Australia.

Any wonder Indonesia isn't happy?

Then Rudd and the Labor mob had to increase surveillance on domestic Indonesian politics if only to manage the political debate back home where they were up to their ears trying to say that even if their policy had failed, the economic migrants weren't what they seemed to be, ie opportunists taking the places that should have gone to real refugees.

Then along comes the ABC, falling over its two left feet to help the scurrilous UK Guardian rag to sensationalise its 'scoop' of unverified 'information', that far from being in the public's interest to promote, created a diplomatic mess instead and was solely to increase the audience of the Guardian and for the ABC, to continue its left 'Progressive' spin.

Greg Sheridan's article, 'Spy story shows ABC at its left-wing worst' is spot-on,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/spy-story-shows-abc-at-its-left-wing-worst/story-e6frg76f-1226771740588#

The only thing that makes this incident 'complex' is that it has rebounded on the authoritarian Left, Labor and the ABC.

Thanks for the contributions but think it has run its course and maybe some one will ,in time post another about progress that has been made
Diplomacy forbids me telling of my reasons for leaveing the thread.

belly/Diplomacy forbids me telling
of my reasons for leaving the thread.

awe come-on...ol'mate..have you 'recieved'..the knock-on/the door?

or someone tried to shut you up

mate..there i's trolls..trying/wanting/hoping we shut up
[or better go away]..and words like that worry me.

whats up..bloke
whats changed..too many have just left

why?

No OUG avoiding the bloke above my last see you in another thread

Greg Sheridan of The Australian was right to observe of the ABC that, "Running Snowden's mischief required neither courage nor journalism".

The PM gas now said that the ABC advertised the Guardian's story, which is contrary to the ABC's charter.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/abc-advertised-guardians-spy-story-tony-abbott/story-e6frg996-1226772306626

However it is rather typical of the ABC that departed from its independent and publicly-responsible course of years ago.

The large issue is ABC's principles and ethics in reporting. Its unspoken, informal editorial policy appears to be at odds with the staid formal editorial policy that it advertises.

After dining on a steady diet of right wing clap trap nonsense from Murdoch, the conservatives are aghast when confronted with the fairness and even handedness of the ABC. The shrill calls of "silence those heretics" goes up from the usual suspects, not the least being Murdochs very own band of reactionary journalistic hacks. What do the detractors think the best payback for ABC independence and fairness is, nothing less than cutting off their funding will do, the conservatives believe that will put the kibosh on the commie bastards down there at Aunty. no more of that un-Australian anti Abbott reporting.

Paul yes quite true.
It however is also true many, from any party you can name, thinks the ABC is biased.
And sometimes I think some questioners are.
But if you think about it the Audience for ABC and Fairfax news papers seem to be several points upon the IQ scale.
We tangle often, you a refugee from old school Labor, me the property of present and future Labor [reform is coming]
I think the best defense from the true right is remembering why we are so proud to be left of them.
Just now the true thinking Liberals must be at least a bit concerned.
Abbott talk is becoming a joke, his words seem to come from a working concrete mixer.
And his explanations? along with Christopher Pyne are private school like twaddle.

Belly: It however is also true many, from any party you can name, thinks the ABC is biased. And sometimes I think some questioners are.

The Questioners questions are vetted before the show starts & they don't promise that you will get your question asked. Who next to be allowed to ask a question is dictated by the "man upstairs" who whispers in the panels ear. I used to work in this industry many, many years ago. One of my many hats.

Belly: But if you think about it the Audience for ABC and Fairfax news papers seem to be several points upon the IQ scale.

Well, they think they are anyway. Usually Uni students or academics or representatives of a particular group that the Forum wish to push.

There is no way that the Media will allow someone to ask a question that will totally gazump a Panel Member, that's why they vet the questions. Sometimes they will ask you for a list of your questions you wish to ask when you arrive. They will tell you which one you will be allowed to ask if you get picked. This also saves on doubling up, or that's what they say their reason is. You are not allowed to ask a question that hasn't been submitted. Mostly, when you apply to be part of the audience, they will ask if you want to ask a question, if you do, you are asked to submit those questions. Then they pick who will be in the audience. If your questions were in the too hard basket there is no way you will get to be a part of the audience.

Left, Right or the One in the Middle, no "Party" tells me what to believe or not to believe according to their particular Dogma, because they all Lie.

What's this got to do with Spying?

Jay what a lot of rot!
Did you infer this forum is biased?
And come you can not think every question to every politician is put up before the question is asked?
I think I see the problem! you think so far out side the square our thoughts are so different, we can never agree.
ABC has, as most medea has, young girls asking the questions.
And desperate to make a name for them selves try to unsettle those they question.
I find both sides of politics feed such folk,by not confronting a truth.
Questioners far too often ask stupid questions because that is the best they can do.
BUT worse far too often they put their own personal views in the form of a question, that must be confronted and harshly during the interview.

Belly: Jay what a lot of rot! Did you infer this forum is biased?

No, I did not. I was talking about TV programmes & you know it. Either that, or you are angry about something & taking it out on this forum.

Belly: And come you can not think every question to every politician is put up before the question is asked?

Again, I was not talking about asking the "truth" question at TV Forums, but at the pre-election promises. But, once again, you knew that.

Do I think outside the box. Yes I do. I not ashamed of that, quite the opposite, in fact. Maybe, with any luck, it will get people thinking. I've said it before. I do not blindly accept everything "my Party" tells me & reject everything "the other Party" tells me, as a matter of course. I don't have "a Party." All Partys lie.

Belly: ABC has, as most medea has, young girls asking the questions.
And desperate to make a name for them selves try to unsettle those they question. I find both sides of politics feed such folk,by not confronting a truth.

Yes, you are right. Political Uni Students are sent along to TV forums by their respective Parties with pre-discussed questions to submit to Channel Producer who allocates who & which questions will be asked. Then they throw in a couple of outsider Groups to stir things up & one really stupid question. All with a view to enhance the Programmes view-ability.

Belly: BUT worse far too often they put their own personal views in the form of a question, that must be confronted and harshly during the interview.

That what the "stupid" questioner is for.

Please sort your anger out on your problem, not on me. Thank you.

Belly:<<..It however is also true many, from any party you can name, thinks the ABC is biased.>>

any[EVERY-].one has bias
and abc=no differenct

heck were all biiased..so what]..it means we care

<<And sometimes I think some questioners are>>

some..old mate..?
ALL..every single blooming one of them*..[us]
[why should they..[we]..be different?

spying is about finding..the points..of..difference
spin..is about twisting the point..to our own advantage

so be it..here and in/the next lives
the things we chose determine how we live
living in anger..isnt really living..

[but neither the other soul/killing..things
the so called..'deadly-sin's'..thing is every-one has an agenda

by gods will/alone..

god enjoys the extreme example
[you know..like the...flea..picking a fight..
with a lions eyelash..or like felix[the cat]..or tomcat/or charely brown.[hitler/stalin/gengus chan/thatcher or menzies..or kers curr]..

I'm with JayB.

The ABC has a distinct tilt --rather like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, but more pronounced.

It isn't just, or even mainly, the questions its reporters pose. Actually, if anything I'd say it is a lot more balanced in that regard than it has been in the past

But bias is clearly discernible in the flavor of the programs and documentaries it airs--a few examples off the top of my head:

1) We get regular documentaries which in one way or another--spruik multiculturalism. And such documentaries will almost always include heavy sermonizing about how bad Oz was to have had the white Australia policy--there will never be any acknowledgement that many of our near neighbors, whom the doco will have implied we had offended by such a stance, had similar (perhaps the ABC reporters are no knowledgeable enough to know that!)

2)Its reporting and commentary is very much pro-"asylum seekers" It is now almost always the case that anytime there is a issue/question about "asylum seeker policy" you will get an uninterrupted, unedited spiel by a refugee advocate group--and often that is the only assessment that you will get.

3)The coverage of climate issues is heavily weighed in favor of the warmist case-- and (on the Science Show) extends even to the childish belittling of skeptical authorities.

I am amused and feel I am on solid ground asking this question of our very right.*Do you think Bolt is biased?
That thing Alan Jones?
Do you like color blind see only some truths/colors?
We of left of Liberals should not be upset by posts like those here.
Ring every bit of joy out of the fact we understand the truth.
And that the 12% not committed to one side or the other are not buying it.
May have some news here soon but here will be far from the only place.

Belly: Do you think Bolt is biased? That thing Alan Jones.

I'm quite sure they're biased. Whoever they are I never listen to the radio anyway as I live near Brisbane & all the shock Jocks are in Sydney & Melbourne anyway. I watch the TV News on 7, 10, ABC, SBS & sometimes C&N & Aljezerra. I get my News reading from Yahoo 7's various News outlets. A reasonable World cross section, I think.

Belly: Ring every bit of joy out of the fact we understand the truth.

Well if that's mot biased nothing is.

Belly: And that the 12% not committed to one side or the other are not buying it.

If you mean one side or the other. Yep, that's me, not buying any Political Party Fanatics crap. Now crack, a hissy fit. ;-)

Government is there to serve the electorate. It is not there to rule us. Government is supposed to be providing essential services that it was set up to provide. First get the fundamentals right.

Government has no money of its own Government money comes from taxpayers. It is not an inexhaustible bucket that never runs dry.

Daily we read about children who harm themselves, boys failing in school and ambulances ramped outside hospital emergency entries waiting for available beds. Sadly, the government's own auditor, the ANAO has reports that seniors in nursing homes are covered in bed sores because they are not moved, and starvation of patients occurs.

All I ask is for government to put first and foremost the priorities for which it was originally set up. That and obtain value for money.

It is many years since the publicly funded national broadcasters, the ABC and SBS were conceived and there is no doubt that things have changed enormously since. There has never been so much free access to information and entertainment as at present and the availability and access continues in leaps and bounds. Newspapers and magazines are restructuring with many closing their doors forever, such is the public choice available on the Net.

Insofar as the publicly-funded national broadcasters are concerned, it is unreasonable that they expect to always be funded as they have been. Comparing the ABC now with what it what it produced (say) thirty years ago I would sell the present mob in a trice.

Why should the Aussie taxpayer who has been bled white through direct and indirect taxes, user pays, withdrawal of services and so on have to stump up the $$dough for two publicly-funded national broadcasters though? What cost political correctness and the ethnic lobby?

Go back to one and then only part-funded by the taxpayer. It does not matter which gobbles which, but two national broadcasters paid for by taxes is an outrageous excess.

A new allegation, now its been revealed Australia has been spying on East Timor, under Howard. Not for political purposes but for economic gain over oil and gas. 15 spooks from ASIO raided the offices of Bernard Collaery in Canberra yesterday, seizing files. Collaery is a lawyer representing the East Timor Government in its spying case against Australia. How will Abbott explain this one?

Paul yes but I have a feeling if governments did not spy we would demand to know why?
After nine eleven it turned out American spy agency's did not put information together so let their country down.
It is true Howard then and now remains unloved by some.
I doubt however he knew much about the spying.
We turn voters off by harping about yesterdays wrongs.
And too do not have enough information to know what took place and WHY.
Those who blamed the messenger here I have a question for you.
*Are you upset by the revealing in the news up to one hundred young Australian resedents are said to be fighting in Syria*?

Belly: *Are you upset by the revealing in the news up to one hundred young Australian residents are said to be fighting in Syria*?

No, more Muslim gun fodder, but they MUST never be allowed to return to Australia under any circumstance. EVER.

<< [The Jihadis] MUST never be allowed to return to Australia under any circumstance. EVER>>

If only we could enforce that,ay! But the reality is it ain't going to happen.

And we are only reaping what we have sown. BOTH (repeat) BOTH major parties have been all too eager to open our doors to anyone who cries wolf,and bugger the future consequences.

And we could well repeat the mistake--for the hundredth time--with the current war in Syria. With lobby and pressure groups cajoling and conspiring to up our intake.

SPQR yes! we agree, jay b in selling what I am convinced is a good product, making their reentry to our country as hard as we can you stumble.
See no need exists to scream in this debate.
We can just calmly tell the truth and ask for it too.
Why have both sides put us in this mess?
Why has the western world taken in Migrants that SOME TIMES bring death and internal conflicts with them.
Could it be that the UN or UNHCR are a bit like givers of Australian Justice?
You know the release or bonds given for reasons we never understand.
I think they think by mixing us together enforcing PC rules they think we will breed the difference out of humanity.
In fact we will see here things that make us hurt and both sides of the house must be held to acount.

SPQR yes! we agree, jay b in selling what I am convinced is a good product, making their reentry to our country as hard as we can you stumble.
See no need exists to scream in this debate.
We can just calmly tell the truth and ask for it too.
Why have both sides put us in this mess?
Why has the western world taken in Migrants that SOME TIMES bring death and internal conflicts with them.
Could it be that the UN or UNHCR are a bit like givers of Australian Justice?
You know the release or bonds given for reasons we never understand.
I think they think by mixing us together enforcing PC rules they think we will breed the difference out of humanity.
In fact we will see here things that make us hurt and both sides of the house must be held to account.

belly/quote..<<..Why have both sides put us in this mess>>

both sides have plundered others..assets
and those who..betrayed..their own/mob
need a safe place

NEED a new name..new exploitations/new victims..to/exploit/loot
but..mainly..as a safe place..

un-till they genocide..the exploited..into extinction
[or the demonic vote..returns the world/globalist/rapists/back into..power..and then..they go..back/home..

[see how..the leaders..who LOBBIED..invading iran/palistein/alfgannstan..ARE>..ALL..getting the big bucks..now]

MATE..every-thing
every crime..

its all..just business[as usual]
as long as we send aid and comfort
to rich exploiters[colonizers]..we will get the fruit

the refuses..re-fu-gee.
expel..all-duel-passport holders
do not allow then to..export their booty/plunder back..'home'

Getting back to the issue. Has anybody thought about the reason for the bugging of Yoddie & his wife's phone?

Was it to find out just who was doing the bribing & how much bribing was going on? Was our intelligence Agency trying to find out exactly where Australia's Aid money was going & how much of it was being used to offset Indo's spending in the areas OUR Aid was being used for? Was it trying to find out how much the Indo Government was assisting the People Smugglers?

Of course Political Correctness has precluded these reasons from being mentioned in the Media.

Hmmm. Musta hit the nail on tha head, there.

Sorry jayb, have visitors and only posting when they go fishing.
The question was asked by me twice in early posts.
You and I may well ask.
But while we will never know if an answer was possible it may well consist of a reason we would agree with.

Belly: have visitors and only posting when they go fishing.

An' why haven't you gone fishing with them. Probably like me. They pay me not to go with them so they'll catch some fish.

Belly: The question was asked by me twice in early posts. You and I may well ask. But while we will never know if an answer was possible it may well consist of a reason we would agree with.

Well that's my reason they were spying on Yody's Missus & others. Seeing that they are considered to be the 5th. most corrupt Country in the World. That's something I hope we can agree on.