We change leaders today.
But can we change the hostility seen in this campaign?
Ill health drove me away from the polling both but ability to think tells me Labors run is over.
And too, as said here for years in part at its own actions.
Now we stop being the target, some times a position well earned, and the other side gets that.
I saw a media to shame, not just the demented dwarf from America.
But a host of talking heads *giving their opinions* in the form of a question.
But are we going to let our mate ship die?
Events like this campaign go close to breeding separation.
Starting a fire that blinds us to the damage we have seen.
For me the ALP must truly confront its self.
Must truly take head on the damage factions did.
*The treat*that any one crossing the floor to oppose Obeid and his filth, would be expelled from the party.
That rule entrenches crime and fraud.
NSW FILTH was born long before them, Woolongong shouted a warning, Labor, maybe others too was infested with self serving fleas.
Some great policy,s died today, in part at the hands of filth and traitors from within our ranks.

The really nice thing about the children on OLO is that they have nothing to offer other than an extension of the KRudd mantra that we have as a Nation, just rejected.

Since there is nothing else on offer I’ve decided to post this response against the last three threads that have emerged today. The nice thing about ideological predictability and groupthink is that the same response always applies.

They fail to recognize that the majority of Australians have just demonstrated via the ballot box, that they don’t share their adopted views. Suddenly democracy is no longer valid if it doesn’t fit.

Tough titties children, night night and sleep tight.

Sorry you are not well Belly. Hope the new seasons blooms give you a lift.

Mate we will know if labor can come back, when we see what they do with Rudd. If you don't get rid of him completely you have no chance.

I'm afraid for you that despite your predictions, Abbott is going to prove a good, & inclusive PM. Probably a bit softer than I think we need, but good never the less. This could make it even harder to reform your party.

You will have to find a leader who can get away from hate, & start to think about what is good for the country.

I know you can, but you know people like you have been pushed aside, & been made helpless.

I don't like your chances, it has been going on since Richardson, & will be hard to fix, but I wish you luck.

Hasbeen, (to Belly), "You will have to find a leader who can get away from hate, & start to think about what is good for the country"

That would rule out Tanya Plibersek and Bill Shorten.

Spin Doc you by that smirk mark your self as unworthy.
I would ask the ALP voters here, me proudly one, not to look first for others wrongs.
We did! just as in 1975! bring parts of the roof down on our heads.
If we gift wrap the ALP in only finding fault in others we die.
Labor must reform, clearly its policy,s failed to sell.
Yet are in my view ones to be proud of.
We must confront 2010, not Lionize Gillard, she more than any one owns our defeat.
Both party,s must confront an electorate prepared to vote for minor party,s, to let teams with less than 20% over throw the wishes of the eighty percent.
Labor will rebuild, on the very best foundations, true reform.
Liberals will have the usual honey moon then by its actions recruit voters for Labor.
First however the senate?
Was it Australia,s intention yesterday to let Abbott beg that mob of wasters to let his policy,s pass? to see some stopped?
Labor and the Liberals acting on behalf of the 80% should bargain to pass mandated bills.
Abbott has his mandate.
I want as first reform an end, forever, to Labors combining with the greens.
Too for a new look at why we let a senate stall true rule of the people.
We risk a shattering of our style of Democracy if we do not confront the joke the senate is.
Last time I say this it was shocking to find OLO is more reprsenative than I thought.
The naked hate stupidity and spite shown towards Labor/me came from the lower end of the IQ range.
But consider if we did the same? death in our streets!
Abbott has sold us a pup and Labors finger prints can be found there too.
New Leader? Bill Shorten.

Dear Belly,

The election was only yesterday.
It remains to be seen as to the difference
that the new government will make. It's one
thing to be in Opposition, quite another to
have to actually solve problems and run the
country.

The Economist tell us that Mr Abbott's big test
will be to adapt his combative style to the
serious business of government.

Mr Abbott has already ditched an earlier boast that
he would return the budget to surplus in his first
term. And abolishing the carbon tax and other pledges
may well face challenges in the Senate.
Mr Abbott told the Australian Financial Review that
there will be a "qualitative difference in the way
things happen in Canberra."
What the difference will be remains to be seen.

As for Labor?

I am concerned that Mr Rudd will remain as a prominent
figure in the Labor Party taking up space in
Parliament - and the cameras focusing on him instead of
any new leader. I was hoping that if he lost
the election he'd resign not only as Leader of the Labor
Party but from politics altogether - giving the Labor
Party a chance to really make a fresh start.
Instead he'll be there
biding his time, and I wonder if he won't be tempted
to start campaigning again for himself, in six months time?

Labor needs to have a few words with this man.
And advise him on what's really good for the Party.
He must surely take some responsibility on board for the
failure that the Party has received.

Lets look at the facts -

The Party
did steer the economy through the GFC, putting
Australia in its 22nd year of uninterrupted growth.
The Party introduced several worthy reforms, a fibre-optic
broadband network, an insurance scheme for disabled people,
school reforms and a price on carbon emissions.

In the end though, all of this was overshadowed by the
bitter rivalries between Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard.
And the man does not acknowledge any responsibility for this
at all, and he's still sticking around.

That's a concern!

The Greens have lost the plot, they have a 3% swing away from them.

So the Melbourne member says my victory is a vote that people don't agree with the other party's policy on refugees.

There leader Christine Milne blames it on "We recognise that there are some people who are disappointed by all of the shenanigans in the Labor Party and that some of that has rubbed off on the Greens.

hi belly..you stood by your belief..thats a win
i got one..for the true believers

dont rush..ANYONE..into the hot seat

the fun..is only..THE..beginning

kevin..is gone..
but mate*..now what?

WHERE this all went wrong..was
when..bob..didnt give it..to paul

so i rekon..[now THE PEOPLE..can vote 50%]..or not..?

lets..*let the people*..correct
where we* all..went wrong..!

[do it..the cam;bell../..new-man..*way]
you know..elect as opposition leader..
someone..not sitting..*in parelement

elect..*as Honoria..
opposition LEADER..paul..keating

[an outsider..yet the real..DESERVING*..
CHOSEN..elder/statesman..*opposition..*LEADER*]
till..say xmass..

dont rushing a newbie..
[nothing would be worse..than tonies cronies
destroying a few goood men/woman..untill..THE PARTY membership sort things out

recall..how at question time..
[STANDING orders..are SUSS-pended]

imagine the shock..when caucus pays honor due to paul
and at first questiontime..paul*..asks the first question?

can the prime minster explain..now..blah/blah

of couse paul..agrees HE will resign..
a few nonths prior the next election..or at say xmass..his or next year..[to allow the PARTY members..TIME to vote..on the next opp/lead

and WHEN..paul cant sit..
then..on his right hand..sits..*the elbow*.shorten//whoever

the people..will..see the wisdom...of the people deciding
we must..[ok you must]..rebuild...from where the rot started

except bill/hayden is too old
bob has had his glory..[but could extend it..by putting up the idea*]

anyhow...it takes time to rebuild
so ELDER*..paul/keating..come on down

in honorarium opposition
[rebuild] ]leader

Foxy, 'Leave Julia alone, it wasn't her fault. It was all that man's fault'

That has already been done,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV41-vuw1sE

otb,

Much as I appreciate your attempts to
get my attention - you really need to
actually read my posts and try to
comprehend what was being said before you respond.

That wasn't what I said.

Thanks anyway.

How are you Belly. Long time no speak.
We need a strong but non destructive opposition and the Labor party now is it.
It is essential it reinvents itself so as to provide a viable alternative as there is no other party that can do this job at this point in time.
Destructive politics serves no purpose in a democracy such as ours and if the intent of any party is to wipe out its opposition totally we no longer live in a democracy.
The main game of political parties is to serve the people and the country, war games between each other is not part of the brief in my opinion.
It would be nice to have no parties at all but that is never going to happen so we need to ensure we have the best outcome possible. These last three years especially has shown us just how base and mediocre our political parties have become. They, both parties, all parties, need to lift their game.

SD

shaggers/quote..<<..strong but non destructive opposition..>>

funny..how tony decided opposition..to mean..opposing
its a tried and true..method..why

cause kim besilly..agreed..wasnt destructive..
in fac..the thought he was running interferrance..for govt
ie we then..,had no opposition..

with kim..having to defend..
the other parties policy
ie..no difference

i recall..krudd..did the me too
and fell..into..howards 20 billion trap

i feel dont put in your best bat
put in a safe pair of hands..or a night watchman

we must see an open/fair/long sorting out process
john..didnt look/like a pm..till..he got rid of his thick black glasses

cream..rises to the top
only after the stirring stops

so..first we need a temp/op/leader
till the people.. plus caucus..either nominate/vote..a consensus..all can get behind

too much talent
but..we cant afford ego..but dont want yes meneither

opposition..is about taking the opposing side..
in..a fair debate..we need real opposition..

watching the bar stewards/
keeping political PROCESS..honest open.

Thanks all, lost my first post, health a bit shaky but some improvement.
Foxy we must confront many truths.
Gillard owns this, she never should have knifed Rudd, no matter how bad she thought he was, that event killed us.
Our near death is not over yet Tasmania is to become Liberal country, maybe for decades.
See we have let our selves be contaminated by the greens, no more need be said, *but*we never would have needed them! without Gillards actions.
We must, just must! not try to make over the NSW FILTH! a decade long lurch away from its roots and the simple truth.
*Good folk sickened by it had their hands cuffed by Labor policy* cross the floor and you are dis- endorsed!
We still have 1950,s taunts used against us, we will have HSU /NSW FILTH used that way.
We must scream our hatred of those events every day, until the many who think our whole party crooked can not use it yet again.
Look at the senate.
Ask with honesty , did Australia under Labor now Liberal want that house of frauds, [some appear so] to over rule majority rule.
Or do we ALP voters gloat at the chance to needle Abbott?
Senate? Let it become a party house of review, first and second past the post get proportional representation and are picked by their party.
No pups no greens and a government free to govern.
Labor in the weirdest way won that night.
Won reform, won back popular support.
But must dig deep, and remove past cancers from within then move forward to the promise we had on election night 2007.

Onya Belly,

Good to hear you are coming good.
I was wondering what had become of you.
Interesting times without a doubt.
A crystal ball would be a good thing to have in ones kit right now. There is much in the future that will require ability rather than ambition and one can only hope there is a modicum of that in those that represent us in Canberra.

SD

Dear Belly,

I hope that you're feeling better.

The ALP has "saved the furniture" holding
many safe seats and preserving future leadership talent like
Chris Bowen, Tony Burke, Kate Ellis, Tanya Plibersek,
Penny Wong, and others. The question is - whether the Party
will now listen to these people and will be capable of
starting afresh or whether they will continue with their
traditional factional methods.

I guess only time will tell.

Only time will tell whether Mr Abbott will be
able to adapt his combative style to the serious
business of government. It one thing to be in Opposition,
quite another in having to solve problems and run the
country. Plus, many of his pledges may well face challenges
in the Senate. He's already ditched an earlier boast that
he'd return the budget to surplus in his first term.

Don't be too disheartened and remember that a
successful Party (and Leader) is one who can lay a firm
foundation with the bricks others have thrown at them.

Take care.

Just to prop up my right to an opinion I worked hard and long for my party.
Knowing our fate, fearing much worse, I was proud to takeover my old office and of my Unions backing of my party and me.
I pre polled and worked in too areas, both lost, both as expected.
If I learned anything it was just recycled past learnings.
Many voters, on both sides, have little idea.
My wish is for a man to come who understands that.
If he wants it that man is Shorten, Albo too and Faulkner if he wants to return.
Deep inside me I remember Labor rats.
I can never forget them, or the self serving Torys of my childhood, never far away from Dads birth place Bowral.
Then, and for some now,ALP voters are trash.
Clean our bed linen, tell again and again, those haters and our own FILTH from our engine room, NSW we see them, and will not ever let them trash our great party.
We are nothing if not the victims of a few products of unwed parents who used us and our party as a ladder to wealth.
I know we are confronted by a government that will greatly harm our values.
But we must confront the part we worked in our fall.
And too see unless both sides confront a senate about to become even sillier, new one sits mid next year, we are in the hands of the few and no side ever again will be able to use its mandate.
Bill, sort out what we can pass and let Abbott pass it isolate greens and the cranky kids in the senate.
We win by saying we are a party of our own values and will trade no more with the greens.
Paul 1405 was right, both of us now think Labor never should have done deals with the greens.
Isolate single people and small party,s in both houses and?
One vote one value lets get it done.

the alp might have saved the furniture. The problem is the furniture is still full of white ants. Emily's listers and unionist still infest the woodwork.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-09/nsw-sends-liberal-democrat-to-senate/4945080
This link begs for our attention.
It to me at least, looks threatening and yes shonky.
The use of a name bound to deceive is there to be seen.
Along with the PUP sold by Palmer, promise anything they never understand we have no power to implement it!
Family first and such is our senate serving the interests of the few or the most?
Can Democracy continue to live if senate seats can be bought by preference deals?
Surely we are being conned miss used and subsidizing a crooked scheming few?

belly/quote..<<..victims of a few products..of unwed parents who used us and our party..as a ladder to wealth...>>

great word control..but you arnt..victim
alp..or rather unions..support..victims

<<But we..must confront the part..we worked in our fall.>>

you..didnt cause the fall belly

sure plenty of guilt all round..
so lets stop the blaming..one thing/person/ot other
not till..the scapegoating stops..can rebuilding begin..the foundation..is sure/firm..we just built a wrong thing..YET*..on a solid base

<<..unless both sides..*confront a senate..>>

yes the party lie/line
that line ALONE..confirms the next line is only TO true
[black blurnot true blue]

<<..we are in the hands..of the few>>

too few*

<<..and no side..ever again will be able to use..its mandate.>>

that there is where it goes wrong
tony promised..over 200..plus promised things
he cant claim..mandate over all of them,..

just.cause we accepted..a less bad option.
.DIDNTmean we VOTEed ANY manDATE*..[that would need 90%..of the vote..[not 45%]

<<We win..by saying we are
MORE a UNION..more than a party

WE WILL NOT..*ever..
<<..Isolate single people..and small party,s>>


<<..One vote one value..lets get it done.>>
..for just..the party..or everyone?

what is going to get done?
should be told..to..everyone...

my solution is number every box
[get sloppy..or get it wrong..too bad]

no more just vote one..
too lazy..too easy..to give an implied mandate..
when thats not..what our vote did..nor can do..

no*..mandate unless specifically
a definite choice..via a specific vote..is given..
say like a referendum..and specifically..ONLY..by fully informed consent..

MANDATED stuff...must be voted for..
specifically

Belly,

It wasn't the 'MSM', a poor campaign (Rudd clawed back some of the very large rump alienated by that Julia Whatshername), or that the voters got it wrong. The outgoing Labor politicians got what they deserved. It could have been far worse.

There is corruption from the union links.

There is idealism and short-sighted pragmatism from the self-serving career politicians. Wong and Plibersek come to mind. They each have more front than a council bus.

Labor needs some of the mature Labor people who have achieved in their own businesses and in life. They might not present as slick as the ineffectual Penny Wong aka The Penguin (she looks the part but can't fly), but they can be trusted to get it right by taking notice of the electorate and they are in it through commitment, not for career advancement.

Belly,

otb says "....Labor needs some of the mature Labor people who have achieved in their own businesses and in life..."

"....and they are in it through commitment, not for career advancement."

Tony Abbott, said the other night on Kitchen Cabinet that he left his seminary studies when he realised a mate of his was flying to London to sign a multi-million dollar deal (might have been a billion)...and Tone was stuck writing a 500 word essay on the Desert Fathers (or some such subject)

Has Abbott ever run a business?

It appears he's as committed to "career advancement" as the next guy.

(Although, if that's the sort of thing that turns his head, he was obviously unsuited for the priesthood - at least he had the sense to realise that)

Poirot,

Some can apply their learning and have commitment to the nation. Tony Abbott appears to have those qualities and time will tell.

Labor has failed and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

How nice that this thread will benefit from the presence of a self-proclaimed lady such as yourself, dear Old Tin of Fruit. LOL

Dear Poirot,

I watched that episode of "Kitchen Cabinet." I think that
Mr Abbott realised that his chances of being
Pope were rather slim. He opted out of the
priesthood - and decided to
pursue a career in politics. Makes perfect sense. ;-)

otb,

"How nice that this thread will benefit from the presence of a self-proclaimed lady such as yourself...."

How nice that you recognise that....

: )

How nice that you recognise that....

: )
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 9 September 2013 4:44:04 PM
Posted by Foxy,.. Monday, 9 September 2013 4:40:44 PM

prod
peas in a pod..i tell ya

prod not rod
change we must
or the world..*go bust

"How nice..that this thread..will benefit

from the essence..of too few..
self-proclaimed ladies..such as yourselves...."

from..the laddies
who..love ladies

the glad lad

[as juxta-exposed..sad mad lad]

Poirot, "How nice that you recognise that...."

That is quite OK, of course you are a lady,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INj6HPuKJnk&list=PL76223548C67DBBB1&index=1

OUG I can not agree with all you wrote but understand the thinking behind it.
Folks take it from me, many more than we wish to think, never put much thought in to voting.
Not an excuse for Labors loss/self inflicted fall.
Look at the views seen here, from both sides.
A host of fallacys are there to be seen.
And even with a new NSW leader, introducing new strong laws rejecting our past, some are unable, far too many, to see it was not all, not this generation of members.
Yes yes and yes again, We [ALP]do not trust or want Abbott.
On form he will not take long to remind us.
But first clean our own house, reform.
Now Emerson this morning added to our information bank on him.
We knew he could not sing.
He today showed he can not think.
*Almost any past leader* undermined the one he replaced.
What one of the did it worse than Gillard.
Are we still trying to tell Australia she was a lovable Lady?
Do we understand what they thought carries much more weight than what the few who are unable to see her as she is want us to think.
Flog Craig into a corner and let him share it with Latham.
What are your thoughts on our funny farm Senate?
Do we roll around the floor laughing at that smug mug Abbott's trouble.
Or is the fate of both sides in an increasingly joke like Senate more important?
I propose we put up a ticket next election.
Use the cash to fund this site, name?
How about the one finger keyboard thumper party?

Here's a go...

First sign of the petty and vindictive ideology we can expect from the new govt.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-10/bracks-stripped-of-ny-post-by-incoming-abbott-government/4947454

Taking into account that a more mature Labor govt was generous with overseas postings to those on the conservative side.

Good onya, Bishop...smacks of formulating vendettas with the other girls in the primary school loos!

belly...<<..one finger keyboard thumper party?>>

lest we forget
shadelow minister..plus julia bisket..both post here

how about the on line only [olo party..for short]
our voices wont be heard in govt or the street
but the last to post wins

sorry just feeling buoyant...
bored..[lost]..feel anti-climactic....cause its not over

belly you defend the little guy
so to alp..

thats the clear..[only real] difference between..alp/lib
they only*..think big..but alp..[ideally]..notices the down trodden/forgotten

well..now the party is down
why?..it lied..tried to out-green the greens
suck up to..the blue tie/black-suit mob..not the true blue..me/you

'First sign of the petty and vindictive ideology we can expect from the new govt. '

what a laugh coming from someone who supported the most narrow vindictive Government in our history. They even had those who wanted to restrict all speach which exposed their hypocrisy

runner,

You're excused...I wouldn't expect you to recognise "petty and vindictive".

'You're excused '

thanks Poirot. Not unlike you to place yourself as the adjudicator.

OUG excuse me while I lurch away from my threads intended line of travel.
You have done it hard, I too once battled just to eat.
We are no better or worse than any one for that.
I am a fool, we exist, we give too much and get too little.
But bloke know this, I like my great party, emerge far bettor for our loss.
And know too it is a reward, not a pain, to quietly help some one out.
See I never saw my party as all bad, we had filth beyond description in our ranks.
But look for few halos on the heads of the new government.
Know too Labor gives too much welfare Liberal take too much away from those in need.
Labor will see reform in welfare, complain about it, but change nothing when next in government.
We are in a place of silence, but watch the war start about mid next year.
I think, heart and sole, both sides should sit down and bargain right now.
On how to make the Senate a toothless Tiger, some give some take but please lets find a way around preferences conning us all.
Make the next Senate ticket 100mm square have Labor or Liberal *only no preference*
Make the Senate be a self interested idiots free zone.

Quite a few threads and thoughts about the Senate now active.
Just take this thought on board.
Under current rules , unlikely we can change them, we face a minimum of 6 years of a house said to be of review.
Being one of black mail.
And too never forget that in part, bought down the ALP, doing deals with a team unquestionably more disliked than liked the greens.

"And too never forget that in part, bought down the ALP, doing deals with a team unquestionably more disliked than liked the greens." Belly what planet are you on, still attacking the Greens, look at the results, half the seats Labor retained were on Green preferences, we lost nothing. On the other hand your party lost government, like it has all over Australia, lost a swag of seats, can't even find a leader, Shorten...Albo, what a dumbo duo they are, please get in touch with the political reality. Again I ask you to have a look at the result in the seat of Melbourne, it tells you where Labor is heading long term.
p/s even your leader Rudd would not have retained his seat without Green preferences.

Gday Paul, nice to see you back.
Honestly I like you but not all your posts.
Was your mum a needle worker? or was it Dad?
Lets look yet again at both houses not just the Senior sits house of rest/Senate.
In NSW we can vote once in the lower house, box one ignore the rest.
What is so wrong about that?
Why should *any chance exist* my ballot paper in any house any election put other than my intended vote and for candidate in office?
Tell me why my party and yours left *US* out of picking Senate preferences from *OUR VOTE* being distributed.?
How tell me, has Queensland suffered after an ALP government, in the year 1956? abolished the rest room/Senate.
How can a system restoring the will of the majority be undemocratic?
See ya bloke.

Belly - I would just like to remind you people are waiting for your reply on at least 2 threads where you have attacked or made disparaging remarks.

Haunt me as much as you like but first stop giving the thoughts of others without permission.
You are aware I place no value on your thoughts, think with total honesty you are both uninformed and a right wing nut!
Do you agree we both would be better for not referring to each other.
Take your time, I am aware for some deep thought brings head acres.

Belly - YOU are the one who originally said you would avoid me BUT you continually put in stupid comments and sarcastic remarks, but fail to elaborate or clarify your comments.
You only have yourself to blame.

Quote "stop giving the thoughts of others without permission." If you read they are so, suck it up.

Now also please remember you said that, because I know you have done that on a lot of occasions = hypocrite.

You wrote "head acres" it should be headache.

Noted
Ignored
Thanks to all contributors the future looks mixed as a result of the upper house.
Interesting but not good.
I like to think a day will come that ends our Representatives finding reason to endlessly shout at one another.
Not however by the loss of the right to an opinion.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for this discussion.

I haven't been able to respond earlier because
my computer broke down and I've only just
managed to get it fixed.

A reporter writing for "The Weekly Review,"
tell us that:

I think that most of us will agree that this last
election campaign must surely rank as the least enlightening
and most dispiriting election campaign in Australian
history.

From memory past federal elections saw the major parties
enter the competition with distinct and clearly
articulated visions and programs. It was possible to
delineate the shape of the differences between the major
parties. Where economic policies did not depend on saying
the words "surplus" and "growth" over and over.

The criticisms that we don't get it right either all the
time is a valid one. Our politicians have become so robotic
and constrained by spin doctors.

I'm not sure if things are going to get any better.
There seems to be little value in politicians being
truly themselves, not if they want to be leaders some
day and not with a gaffe-hungry media corps hiding behind
every bush.

There used to be an understanding that once existed
between journalists and politicians that required a
direct question to be honestly answered. This seems to
have gone by the way side. And the public's faith and
spirit has gone along with it.

There are many questions that the media needs to answer,
about whether it has done as well as it could have.
And that is the question we need to ask ourselves as well.

Thanks Foxy we need not feel so bad.
It was our party and its actions that voters wanted to dump, for a great time.
Not our policy,s.
Few will have noticed but I put this thread up mid afternoon on election day.
It could have been 3 weeks in to the campaign.
It however was not our policy,s that they rejected.
However no opposition has ever entered its darkest days so well armed, the children of your children will never know such a divided ALP.
These dark days are over reform and change now rules.
Shorten I once said, is the man we thought Rudd was, not knocking Kevin and conveniently forgetting Bills role in 2010.
Bill cleaned that slate on putting the party first.
We are about to ride a wave that will lift us and return much of our lost ground.
Voters are yet to understand , other than removing a dysfunctional Labor, what they voted for.
My party is growing on the ground branches seeing many first time involved in politics folk arrive at every meeting.

Dear Belly,

I hope that Labor will get closer to its base and
map out a strategy of opposition that will shift the
public dialogue in favour of the common good instead
of the politics of envy, greed and selfishness that so
many politicians have so effortlessly mastered.

I would
like to see genuine conversation about policy free of the
backroom manipulation that normally accompanies the
development of their platform. Labor needs new ideas
and new unities to emerge. They need strong and new leadership
to take the party back from the wilderness.

Take care.

Belly, "It was our party and its actions that voters wanted to dump, for a great time. Not our policy,s."

How can you come onto a public site so soon after the electorate has comprehensively rejected Labor and pretend that presumably it was only a problem of replacing Rudd or better electoral spin?

Of course voters rejected such unpalatable policies as gay marriage, endless diversity-we-have-to-have, asylum seekers and so on. The problem with the left 'Progressives' is that that believe they always presume to know what is best for everyone else and no, they will never listen.

Surely after all of your years you have some appreciation of the importance of such 'traditional' institutions as marriage, family and FATHERS to the great majority of traditional Labor voters? - I put traditional in inverted commas because that is one of the slurs used by left progressives for anything they disagree with. If it is 'traditional' it must be bad according to their weird slant on life.

Dear OTB,

Political commentators have pointed out

"part of the problem with this last election
was that no one articulated a strong position on
anything (unless it was being as tough as possible on
asylum seekers)."

Gay marriage and other vital issues
were not written into any policy. There were many "positions"
on issues - but that's different from policies.

Economic policy to some was simply
saying the words "surplus" and "growth" over and over.
(oh, for the days when we actually discussed industrial
policy). A small target strategy (offes less in the
hope of providing less) was commonplace.

This election campaign must rank as one of the least
enlightening and most dispiriting election campaigns in
Australian history. We now have to wait and see what
the results will be for us all.

Foxy,

You may not realise how your words reflect unfairly and wrongly on voters.

The public are not stupid. They rely on practical experience, not on political spin, especially recent spin, to make their decisions. They gave Labor a more than fair go but do not have endless patience.

Mr Rudd referred to the voters as 'punters'. That was just one of his serious miscalculations.

otb,

"Foxy,

You may not realise how your words reflect unfairly and wrongly on voters."

Foxy's words are her opinion, there is no reflection on anybody.

"The public are not stupid. They rely on practical experience, not on political spin...."

Now that's where you're wrong...the public "are" apathetic and easily swayed, often stupid and they are 24 carat suckers for "political spin".

Dear OTB,

I was merely expressing an opinion.
The point that was being made was that voters tended to
focus far too much on the flim-flam. On the foolish
and frivolous moments simply because so much else was
dour and lifeless as politicians have become so
robotic and constrained by spin doctors. The moment we see
something like a moment of simple human faility, we seize
on it. TV especially lives for this.

The consensus seems to be that there's little value for
politicians being truly themselves, not if they want to
be leaders some day and not with a gaffe-hungry media
corps hiding behind every tree.

Dear Poirot,

We can only hope that in the future we won't be deprived
of serious political analysis.
That the top papers, websites, TV
and radio shows will give us the analysis and scrutiny
that we as voters need. I do worry though how does
a journalist make a politician answer a question when they
refuse to do so? Pose it again and, point out that the
question hasn't been answered, and eventually move on?

There are so many questions that us and the media to
answer. Now, in the aftermathy - this election campaign must
surely rank as the least enlightening and most
dispiriting election campaign in Australian history.

poirot..already..i find im..a swinging voter
albo..is on tv..as i write..

but he plans on keeping
[the green/tax thing going]

[if shorton..opposes..it..then im with belly]
but only belly has a vote..

we couldnt budge him on bill
[so i best not try]..but two nice guys..
[except that..green streak of that softie/leftie..albo]

nope lost me

Poirot, <the public "are" apathetic and easily swayed, often stupid and they are 24 carat suckers for "political spin">

Ah, but the public are not superior beings such as yourself.

Foxy, <Gay marriage and other vital issues>

You need to get out more.

'Now, in the aftermathy - this election campaign must
surely rank as the least enlightening and most
dispiriting election campaign in Australian history '

certainly for the losers foxy. Mind you Rudd was fairly upbeat about Labour getting 34% of the vote. He seemed to think that it was heroic.

runner,

That because the Liberal Party gained "less than" 34% of the vote.

runner,

Just on that point....

Labor gained its lowest primary vote for a century this election.....yet still managed more votes than the Liberal Party.

Labor - 33.7 %

Liberal - 31.9 %

OTB in your view what is comment.
Too what is opinion.
Do you understand both may not be the same for any two folk?
I like to think of myself as a realist.
Not always right but for sure, in my view, far more often than you.
You wear blinkers, not unlike many, you look for bad only in my side.
And good only in yours, at the cost of balance and yes truth.
Playing poker do you sit with a mirror behind you, would you expect me to say my party is sinking mid election.
*I firmly* believe we by our actions and inactions, letting the HSU survive, not picketing the NSW FILTH, helped our defeat.
Too that most if not all of our policy,s had nothing to do with it.
That, to be seen this time next year, voters ,some, will be uncertain/upset at Abbott,s teams actions.
OTB we are not mates, rarely agree, yet both of us have the right to our opinion.
And in putting them up? both have the right to differ.
The ALP has left devision and in fighting behind it.
It grew at voters hands, once more is concentrating, bar a few idiots hello Emerson you great dill! is my proud party again.
PS Rudd will do as he must leave the house he never needed the idiots reminder..

ohh..deer
swinging voter hear?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2013/09/13/3848664.htm

im back..with albo
sorry belly/bil

anyhow..ballot time
belly..is it too late..to join..al;p..to vote?

i rekon..the ozzie way..
is folks like you get two*..voting forms
to..either use one..or both..or gift them.away..to prospects..like me?.

i rekon..it would be unfair..
if our votes counted equally..so
i rekon..you ol'mate..HAVE EARNED..more than two..*!*

[ie bill should get his caucus vote =number same number in..public ballot forms..as SHOULD albo..

to use as they see fit..that count as 'public-votes'

the caucus vote =50%
ours =50%...but I..cant see the caw-cuss../*over riding the public decided..vote

so..70?..caw-cuss votes=[equals}..200,000?..ordinary..votes..?

50/50..or what?

still thats better than what we got.*!*

Belly, "Rudd will do as he must leave the house he never needed the idiots reminder"

What about the electors who put him there? If he leaves, Labor has lost that seat.

Had Labor returned to government its corruption and protection of corruption in unions could easily have culminated in a Royal Commission. The only block to date has been the lack of anyone within its federal ranks with the intelligence and principles of Mike Ahern who brought the similarly toxic Bjelke Peterson government regime to a close.

Now that Labor has decided to close ranks again and make its only (mild) reformer Kevin Rudd into its whipping boy for the 'discontent'. The sad fact is that there is very good cause for some members of Caucus, supporters and the public generally to be upset with the obvious structural and other serious systemic defects of the party.

As well, Labor has shown and its senior ministers including ex-PM Julia Whatshername have actually stated (!) that a labor government is not there for everyone. As well as the usual hatreds of the 'Progressive' tail that swings the Labor dog, old people and men cannot expect any fair consideration, for example. Labor really is a weird outfit and toxic, nothing like what its traditional conservative Labor supporters expect or want in 'their' Party.

OTB you do know?
That you are a nasty bit of work.
That if we all held your views we would battle it out on the streets.
Have you ever seen me condemn all Conservatives.
No way around it you are nasty!
Rudd by his return put a 5 in front of our seats, bound without him to be a 2 at best three.
Australians must at all costs stop the hating before it damages this country.
If it is not to be so be warned verbal combat is not the end see countrys far worse of than ours and know bitter hatred starts from small minds.

Belly - QUOTE "OTB you do know? That you are a nasty bit of work." "No way around it you are nasty!"

Could you please tell me what part of those statements focus on "intellectual stimulation"
Because I will remind you of something YOU said "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite."

Dear Philip S.,

I think the point that Belly was trying to make was to
ask that we don't lower the bar of our discussions.
That nastiness is a deterrent and that we should be
looking towards ways of adding, enriching, stimulating,
and amplifying our discussions. Not doing things that are
hurtful, harmful, and not legitimate options for
reasoned, intelligent debaters. This is the responsibility
that public forums expect of their posters.
And it was absolutely appropriate of Belly to remind a poster
of that fact.

Foxy - If you go back over his posts lately it is the very opposite, he is the one lowering the bar. His tactic on a number of threads is to hit and run.

By checking you will see he comes in with absolutely outlandish comments then sarcasm then refuses to elaborate of clarify what he means or substantiate anything.

Philip S,..how would you feel..in his..place..philip?

mate..i..would feel.gutted..
betrayed..etc

yet..wanting to defend/preserve..all the good
i..have devoted..MY WHOLE LIFE to

come-on..dont kick the man..
who refuses to stay down
or be trod on

its not the ozzy way

<<..Foxy - If you go back over his posts lately..>>

oh come on philip
in..the heat of battle
MaTE WE KNOw..that wasnt..the true/blue..belly
so do you..in ya heart..with belly..its personal..cause he cares

EVEN you know it..
in ya gut..<<it is the very opposite>..

TO THE SERVANT OF THE WEAK..WE KNOW,

<<.he is the one lowering the bar...>>

YET HE TOO WAS THE ONE..THAT LIFTED IT UP

<<..His tactic on a number of threads is to hit and run...>>

MATE HE WAS IN ELECTION MODE
WE ALL WERE..WELLTHE ELECTIONIS WON*

BY YOU
WHY YOU/BEING..SUCH A POOR [WINNER]..LOOSER?

you won*
FORGIVE/FORGET

NOW go..
GOVERN..

BELLY..dont worry..go support bill
we will watch..ya back..just make sure..you come back

darn..just swung back to bill
http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/

it wasnt up yet

where's my elbow
maybe insiders?..i missed the start

anyhow..go bill
i mean..albo

go guys
remember to capture the air*
so tony sail..flaps..in the wind
keep up the good work..while they attack here..
they miss lording it..by ruling it..over the victory..out there where it matters

Dear Philip S.,

It seems to me that you're being a bit selective in
your fault-finding in this discussion. Read what the
other poster has stated and then in all fairness
try to understand Belly's reaction.

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree with this one.

Have a nice day.

Foxy - If you read you will see I am right, not this thread but others.

This one for example (his first few lines try to find the part in the thread, it was never stated or inferred).
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6009

Here again he reads something into comments that are not there.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5805#162755

Lots more out there.

Dear Philip S.,

I could give you even more links that would
tip the scales against the poster that you're
defending. So let's leave it at that.
Belly, I happen to know will
only react when the right buttons are pushed
(as do most of us). He doesn't go out of his
way to be nasty. The other poster deliberately
goes out of his way to provoke. Not worth defending
in my opinion - because he usually has earned it.

cont'd ...

Dear Philip S.,

I suggest that you go back and re-read the posts on
this thread before you defend someone who consistently
stoops to personal insults, as was done with Poirot.
("Old Tin Fruit"). This is the norm for this poster.

Then ask yourself why you're defending this poster?
Have you run out of well-reasoned, intelligent, posters
to defend? It would appear so.

Foxy - I am not defending anyone as you suggest I just originally (to Belly) wrote the following

Belly - I would just like to remind you people are waiting for your reply on at least 2 threads where you have attacked or made disparaging remarks.

That is not defending anyone, just pointing out his hit and run tactics.

Dear Philip S.,

If your intention was something else, then your
post addresssed to Belly on page 10 of this thread
should have been ommitted. Because it gave a different
impression to what you're now saying - and hence
I responded to you.

Thanks for clearing things up.

Foxy - If you read it it is pointing out his hypocrisy not sticking up for the other person.

The words he used are in no way steering the thread to "intellectual stimulation", if you think it does say so.

Dear Philip S.,

I've explained everything to you and I
really want to now move on. I don't see
the point in continuing this discussion any
further.

Cheers.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/kevin-rudd-switch-was-right-mps-reject-julia-gillard-attack-20130915-2tshp.html
Philip s! live with it.
As you have the right to your opinions.
So do I.
A fact, your words here, your thoughts opinions and manner of delivering them are my justification for my rebuttal of you.
Nothing you can say or do, will change that, close observation , from you of others comments to your manner will show I am far from alone in my thoughts.
What is your purpose in refusing to concede my right to opinions?
Do you think you can bully me? are you trying to bully me in to thinking other than I do, are you mate a troll?
My link is a reminder some will think it harsh, but Gillard and that stunningly stupid Emmerson are nothing less than *rats in the ranks* both guilty of the very crime they accuse Rudd of.
And neither has a right to dump on Labor.
Remember before talking of disunity , understand Gillard [yes I know females like her BECAUSE SHE IS FEMALE] carried out the first act of treason against a sitting first term PM , a seemingly planned and crafted act.
An internal election is about to give Labor voices a chance, my mind is fixed I will vote one way and support who ever wins.
A day is here right now that demands yesterdays fleas shut up.

Rather than start a new thread I though we could look at the growing debate about increasing the GST.
Some will know I was for it when it could have been Labor in power not the current mob.
And too worth noting while Labor fights against it it was us who first put in up.
A new way or a chance for it exists here.
Still holding the view useing this tax to both gain a bigger return and do away with costly ones.
I think we should let Abbott increase it.
Any one who wants/thinks/ expects him to truly tax less is self deceiving.
And ignoring this, some cuts to services can only be avoided if we increase the tax take.