I was recently involved in an incident where a police officer was repeatedly stabbed. He has been released from hospital and will thankfully be okay. I do not want to elaborate on the event itself. There will undoubtedly be a court case plus I also wish to respect the privacy of the officer and his family.

I wanted to discuss was my reaction. For two days afterward I suffered quite debilitating bouts of total and absolute remorse, repeatedly thinking about what I could have done differently to have stopped the officer being injured. On an intellectual level I knew the feelings were not reasonable but emotionally they were all consuming.

People assured me that my actions were not only appropriate but over and above what was expected, perhaps even helping to prevent a worse outcome, but they made little impact. Nor did very supportive friends and family.

I have never in my life experienced anything close. It was so raw and intense and came upon me in waves every couple of hours. It took a long conversation with a relative who is currently serving as a police officer to thankfully break the back of it.

From what I can gather it is a form of survivor's guilt, often manifesting in police officers, rescue workers, and health workers when they have been involved in an incident where a person has been either badly injured or killed and it can go on for months.

Like many people I have been a little sceptical about some of the extended stress leave afforded these professions. Not any more. If I can go through what I did as a member of the public how much more impacted are those who accept the mantle to protect and serve, especially if they face multiple incidents in their career?

It has certainly shaken my sense of myself, as someone who could take things like this in their stride and who didn't have obvious emotional vulnerabilities. How much more difficult is it for those who have to return to front-line work? They deserve to take the time they need.

Thanks csteel for the insight.
Never having been in such a position it might help if someone we know does get into such a situation.

Dear csteele,

Thank You for sharing your experience with us.
I can't even begin to imagine how frightening it
must have been for you.

I often wonder about people
in our our military forces, young men and women who
are exposed to the most dreadful situations, and
are forced to deal with them, then they return home and
try to live normal lives.

Undoubtedly many do need medical help and time,
and as we know, sadly - not all recover.

Dear Bazz,

Thank you for the response.

Yes the emotional roller coaster really did catch me off guard as it was quite unexpected and so extreme. I really stumbled processing my role in the incident and the fact that another human being was badly injured. I talked it through with my wife and a psychologist friend of ours but it took a conversation with a serving officer to really get a proper perspective.

Even so I am not free from the feelings of remorse or revisiting my actions because they still have a nibble on a daily basis.

Dear Foxy,

Welcome back. That Lexi has been such a pain in your absence so I hope you intend straightening her out. ;)

What you said about our young men and women serving in war zones is of course a given. It is sobering to read that for every member of the US military who dies in action in the continuing conflicts there are 25 who take their own lives. Hopefully our own troops are cared for appropriately in this regard.

I am seeking to convey the reason this incident gutted me so much.

For most of my life I have enjoyed adrenaline sports and there have been more than a few occasions when mind, body or equipment failures have put me in real fear for my well being. Some very close shaves have pulled me up momentarily but never for long.

To a degree I felt personal fear that night but have dealt with hairy situations before. My overwhelming fear was for the well being of the officer and the fact that he was badly injured is what has hit me so badly. I felt personally responsible for not being able to do more to prevent it. This is what I personally struggled with before seeking support.

It took stepping through what had happened with someone who understood the officer's mindset that turned me around. I am not sure how I would have gone doing it solo, probably not well. Very sobering.

Dear csteele,

Thanks for the welcome back.

I'm so glad that you were able to get the right sort
of help.

I used to suffer panic attacks in the past
(haven't had one for ages) and they used to hit me
at the most inopportune times (like travelling on
public transport to work). This was as a result of
being bullied at work - by one person who chose to
single me out and made my life at work very difficult.
It resulted in my becoming addicted
to calmative tablets which took ages to get over.
But I'm now fine. Leaving that workplace also helped a
great deal. I still have flashbacks at times - when I
feel inadequate - but I can now cope with it and
control it.

I wish you All The Best.

csteele, "I was recently involved in an incident where a police officer was repeatedly stabbed"

The knife ban didn't prevent that? Strange!

Sad to say that had the police officer seen the threat in time enough to respond to the cowardly attack with the Service pistol to slow/stop the threat, s/he would have been roundly abused in the media and would still be going through the mill for injuring an offender.

While I offer sympathy for your shock, I would like to hear something about how police can get home at night to their loved ones. Police are ordinary men and women who only have shirt material between them and an attacker.

csteele, "Dear Foxy, Welcome back. That Lexi has been such a pain in your absence so I hope you intend straightening her out. ;)"

Is this a private joke?

Dear Foxy,

I am sorry to hear about your experience. I think a common thread between the two is a feeling of helplessness and the angst it can cause. I completely understand the need for medical intervention to cope.

One comment to me from a relative who is a health professional was that it was lucky I am not the type to self medicate as they had seen many instances of people turning to booze to manage their feelings. In fact 'a few stiff whiskeys' was proscribed by a retired officer.

In my case I don't think it would have helped and possibly could have hindered or delayed my coming to terms, to the degree I have, with what had happened.

I am not wanting to lessen the role of psychologists or other mental health professionals but for me the answer lay in finding someone who was familiar with the territory/scenario and stepping through the sequence of events. Assurances that I had 'done the right thing' were simply platitudes to my ears and ineffectual.

On a certain level this has been a really disconcerting experience for someone who likes to think of themselves as logical and to a large extent analytical.

I would not wish it on anyone.

Dear csteele,

I fully understand where you're coming from.
And Thank Goodness that you were able to sort
it all out.

I did try a psychologist (on my GP's recommendation)
who turned out to not be of much help at all.
She tried to hypnotise me at one stage - and that
was a complete flop.
I finally realised that I had to help myself, nobody
else could do it for me as I had hoped. The answers
lay within me to find, instead I looked to others
to provide me with them. Once I took control of my own
life, I got better. Apart from my addiction to the
tablets, which lasted for a few years until I stopped
"cold turkey." It was difficult to do, but looking
back, I'm glad I did. I still have the occasional
nightmare - but I think that's to be expected.
Although it is getting better every day.

Dear onthebeach,

This is an open forum so you may distribute your pearls of wisdom where you see fit. My advice for what it is worth is to refrain from making direct comments about this particular incident because there are assumptions you have already made that are inaccurate.

As stated at the start of the thread I did not intend going into the details of what occurred but wanted to state for the record I have done a complete 180 on the topic of stress leave for these professions.

As someone who has owned and operated small businesses for most of their life I had always considered myself often operating for extended periods in high stress environments particularly when instructing others in some fairly dangerous sport. I viewed stress leave as something taken only because it was available, particularly by those in public service.

I was deluded and wrong. These people, particularly police and health workers, need our support and resources to heal mentally from the impacts of incidents like this. They and their families need to be put first.

I do not claim any understanding of the stresses front-line workers go through but I now have a small insight into what some of the impacts might look like and it ain't pretty. I especially didn't consider feelings of utter remorse being one of them. I knew by posting this thread I was going to leave myself open to the likes of yourself OTB and am prepared to wear it but tread a little carefully.

As to the private joke perhaps a look at the posting history of both Foxy and Lexi might afford you some enlightenment.

csteele, "These people, particularly police and health workers, need our support and resources to heal mentally from the impacts of incidents like this. They and their families need to be put first"

Agreed.

Ambulance, medical and nursing staff are regularly abused, threatened and assaulted by the people they are trying to assist.

Contrary to popular opinion, many of the offenders take advantage of the situation to harm these workers.

It isn't as though all offenders are so far under drugs they don't know what they are doing although even a tazer will not subdue some, including druggies in particular.

Also contrary to the opinions of the uninformed so often encountered in the media, police are so tightly controlled by procedures and by the certainty of a painful aftermath of any use of force to subdue an offender, even where the offender is violent, that they may pause. Offenders know that.

Fact is, some offenders are just plain mean. They hate by choice and nothing will ever change that.

I can't see much point in stress leave. It is the wrong approach.

When someone finds they are in a job which makes emotional demands they can't handle, no amount of leave is going to make a difference.

Even more does this apply when the problem is accumulative, & continual exposure has caused the problem.

These people should be given help to change career path, to something they can handle, not be given continual bouts of leave, hoping the problem will go away.

When a number of us were picking body parts of a compatriot after an explosion, some could not function, & had to go away. Some quietly threw up in private behind any handy obstacle, & some were not visibly effected.

I have no opinion as to which is the "right" reaction, but obviously some people should not do some jobs.

<For two days afterward I suffered quite debilitating bouts of total and absolute remorse, repeatedly thinking about what I could have done differently to have stopped the officer being injured>

This is more bystander remorse (my term) than survivor remorse isn't it? The belief and guilt that one could have done something but didn't.

It is a very common reaction, but perhaps too widespread in modern 'civilised' society where all are used to the authorities taking the initiative and doing all that needs to be done to protect and take care of people.

Take heart though because even where trained, it remains likely that one will freeze up and not do what it is possible to do. In fact the brain becomes frozen as well. The throat is dry.

This is why the elite military units and police response teams undertake frequent, very realistic training. So realistic in the military where it counts, as to risk the occasional life.

You can program yourself a fair bit to take action in an emergency. It requires that you regularly think and play-act through some likely situations. Preferably aimed at being proactive in recognising and avoiding a developing situation. As well, immediate reactions where threatened.

But even where minor assistance is required, people don't act. The solution is to start reacting yourself. You will get better at it.

Not from books, just experience.

Csteele, you were involved in an event that put perspective back into your life, as it would nearly any of us here in the First World. Glad your ok.

I came across a descriptive that fairly well covered the cause of any Post Traumatic Stress Disorder:

“Any shattering event that leaves you stuck and feeling helpless and hopeless.”

That summed it up for me. From the shell shock victims of WWI to the shattered citizenry of NAZI occupied Europe, last century gave us graphic evidence of how debilitating PTSD is.

Shoot forward to yesterday when you witnessed the stabbing. This Police Officer is totally reliant on the insurance company his employer has engaged. So he will receive as much medical help as he requires but a limited “time” allotment of mental services.

Here in NSW we have MANY distinguished officers with records of heroism suffering job related PTSD thrown aside as their “insurance” case workers rationalize their mental health therapy to meet KPI’s….the insurance company KPI’s. The insurance company shrinks wipe their hands after a very short period and send the “victim” on their way with a handful of coping exercises.

Since 9/11 the global insurance business has answered to no government or lobby group…..and I can’t definitively say why….but the funding of needed ongoing mental therapy was rationalized.

I am surprised that cops actually pay to belong to the NSW Police Association…they get nothing for it. They have less insurance coverage than the corrupt bastards that haunted most forces late last century.

Anyway csteele lets hope time is the only medico you require…we are resilient buggers, it’s the repetition that screws us….like poor cops

onthebeach>> But even where minor assistance is required, people don't act. The solution is to start reacting yourself. You will get better at it.<<

OTB,I believe the identified "fight or flight" response rules our reactions particularly if a choice of participation or not is presented.

Our expectations of the "bystander" to carry the moral imperative in the situation on behalf of humanity quite often doesn't happen regardless of their conscious will to do so.....Their minds quandary between the imperative of their consciousness and the will of their subconscious to preserve their “being” at all costs.

Chickens are not chickens by choice, nor are heroes, they are those by gene.

Dear onthebeach,

I expected nothing less and you delivered as predicted.

You will have read where I wrote “People assured me that my actions were not only appropriate but over and above what was expected, perhaps even helping to prevent a worse outcome” and that I have been “repeatedly thinking about what I could have done differently to have stopped the officer being injured.”

Differently is not nothing.

This sort of stuff from you doesn't really bother me but in the spirit of Bazz's first post (“Never having been in such a position it might help if someone we know does get into such a situation”), I feel any misperceptions you are intent on creating should be addressed.

To all those interested.

Firstly from Wikipedia;

“Survivor guilt was first identified during the 1960s. Several therapists recognized similar if not identical conditions among Holocaust survivors. Similar signs and symptoms have been recognized in survivors of traumatic situations including combat, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, air-crashes and wide-ranging job layoffs. A variant form has been found among rescue and emergency services personnel who blame themselves for doing too little to help those in danger, and among therapists, who may feel a form of guilt in the face of their patients' suffering.”

Yes the variant surprised me too.

Cont..

Cont..

Some generic observations.

For the record I would not expect to see this type of reaction in a bystander. The person would need to have the capacity to help and made an attempt to do so.

A person at first glance may well appear to have been relatively unaffected by an incident but when they begin processing what happened they start to second guess their actions, often in face of things learnt after the fact.

Perhaps they feel their assessment of the situation was incomplete or erroneous in some manner, or they may feel that an action of theirs contributed to the sequence of events. Their initial view of what had happen will seem to change as self doubt then guilt flood in. They will go from being happy to recount the events to being reluctant to do so as it will become obviously emotionally draining. They will withdraw somewhat and express a desire to be alone. This is not to be taken as a bad thing as it may well be a sign they are needing space in order to try and process the events, particularly in an attempt to work through the overwhelming feelings that are slam dunking their emotions.

As a friend or relative comforting words will only go so far and getting the person to talk with someone who has either experienced something similar or would understand the situation the person faced and be able to talk them through it will be important.

I can only hope that your friends or loved ones or even yourselves never have a reason to go through this but if you do then perhaps what you have read may assist.

csteel,

You speak in riddles. What action if any did you take?

A very small group of workers are experiencing extremely high stress due to an extremely incompetent EO who has been appointed by an even more incompetent CEO. I can vouch 100% for the stress of those workers as I am one of them. We don't want to totally ruin the organisation by making a big scene but I think if the Government changes we might have a chance. The whole situation is really taking it's toll on family life in our area. The labor Government is protecting these incompetents yet some workers still will not support a change to a Coalition Government. Now if there are any psychologists looking for research material, remote communities in Far Nth Qld. are the place.

Hi C Steel,

You've hit the nail on the head for me, a currently serving prison officer at a maximum security prison. I've had my share of stressful incidents, but nothing as horrible as yours. And yes, it changed my outlook on leave.

Today, I have been tested for measles after coming into contact with an infected prisoner. If I indeed have measles, it is a 1/3 chance of hospitalisation and can lead to death. Fortunately, I can receive workers compensation.

Unfortunately, our new Minister has accused officers in the media of "rorting" the system by taking work compensation, personal leave, stress leave. The Minister has challenged officers to leave the profession or toughen up. I am disgusted by these sentiments following my experience. We put ourselves on the line.

Some people will find a situation or occupation stressful, others wont.
How you handle these situations or occupations is in your genes, in your make up. Same with the resolution of any long term effects, no dramas for some, a lifetime of looking back for others.
We are all different, it is not a matter of strong or weak, just different.

SD

I work from a truck. A few weeks ago a motorbike went under the side of it making an illegal manoeuvre. He came off second best by far. It has haunted me since. He is okay but took some serious damage. I now have anxiety and sleep problems as a result.

It's weird, it has just stuck with me and I don't know why. My logic says one thing but my mind has a completely different idea on how to deal with it. Which isn't very well.

I'm not sure where to from here.

POrK ChoP, "If I indeed have measles, it is a 1/3 chance of hospitalisation and can lead to death"

Your 'heads-up' on the danger of measles should be taken very seriously by the many mature people who may not have had the vaccination in the past.

No-one should doubt the highly infectious nature of this dangerous disease. Any exposure, even entering a bus or rail carriage occupied by a person with measles is likely to result in infection. With international travel being so common it is about.

Yet the solution is easy and safe, MMR vaccination.

The other reminder is to refresh some other vaccinations. Some do wear off with time. Talk with your doctor, people.

Dear PorK-ChoP,

Welcome to the forum,

Thank you for the post.

I am not proud to admit that until this incident I probably shared at least a little of the sentiments expressed by your minister. Not any more. I would hope that your organisation provides decent training on how to handle stressful situations but I have no idea how cumulative these might be, I suspect a lot.

Being self employed I was able to make time for myself to work through what I was experiencing emotionally yet the thought of quickly re-entering a workplace where the likelihood of it happening again was at least significant would have, in my view, lengthened the time taken to deal with the feelings that so afflicted me.

Dear Shaggy Dog,

Point taken however I think often those who enter many of these fields such as health, policing, rescue work etc do so because they have a caring disposition and an aim to help others in difficulties. Community minded so to speak. So perhaps the empathy they feel toward others that was a prime motivation for engaging in the work they do is what makes the impact of others being injured or killed more heartfelt and therefore more difficult to cope with.

Cont..

Cont..

Dear StG,

You wrote;

“it has just stuck with me and I don't know why. My logic says one thing but my mind has a completely different idea on how to deal with it. Which isn't very well.”

This mirrors my experience and all I can offer is some of the things that seemed to work for me. Talking to family and friends only went so far as did a phone conversation with a psychologist friend. It is as though my logic needed attending to before I could get my emotions in check and just being told by others that any guilt I felt was totally unreasonable was useless. What really made a big difference was a good talk with a serving officer. We stepped through each part of the incident and my responses. Perhaps it was the authority of years of experiencing similar situations himself or by his collegues but my logic was bastioned and therefore the ability to deal with the emotional turmoil strengthen considerably.

That might not have made a lot of sense to many others here but perhaps it may help you. My incident happened a few weeks back too and I do find time healing things. Be proactive in chasing down what might work for you though. I'm not sure where I might have been now if I hadn't.

All the best.

Thanks very much. Very much appreciate it.

Dear individual,

I'm not sure if you were primarily making a political point but I will assume the stress you are experiencing is indeed 'extremely high' and although you do not say it directly that it is impacting your family life as well as those of your colleagues.

This is probably the type of workplace stress I struggle most identifying with due to my limited experience working for a boss much less an organisation, yet the bullying that foxy experienced obviously had a deep and lasting impact on her and if you are facing a similar situation with an incompetent boss then I can understand how your emotional health would suffer and I feel for you.

I wish to repeat the notion of helplessness. Foxy felt it in her situation, PorK-ChoP is obviously experiencing it waiting for the measles test, StG through no fault of his own has had the experience of having someone critically injured through impacting the vehicle he was driving, for me it was a simple as losing my grip on an arm.

I am getting the sense that this feeling of helplessness is a major part of the stress we experience. As irrational as that sounds mine comes from my inability to change the past now knowing what was at stake.

Perhaps our inevitable parades of 'what ifs' are part of a natural human survival response of 'scenario processing', better equipping us to deal with certain stressful situations if God forbid they reoccur. I am warming to the idea that perhaps the short term pain I am experiencing will mean just that, although this could be just a personal framing I have created as a way of coping better.

I'm not sure anyone else is a fan of TED talks but I found this recent one on stress topical. It has a little of that American 'self help' flavor but the message about the way we view stress as being the prime determinant on the degree it impacts our general health seems backed up by solid research. As does the role of others.
http://www.ted.com/talks/kelly_mcgonigal_how_to_make_stress_your_friend.html

csteeke
What an awful thing to witness. Some of you have also shared similar experiences. As human beings we feel deeply the hardship and pain of others and it is not unusual to be impacted by these sorts of experiences, even if sometimes the emotional impacts are felt later.

I can only say don't keep your feelings inside but get out there and talk about it particularly to your GP who will mostl likely recommend counselling. For those who find this difficult, talk to friends and family and don't be afraid to have a good cry.

I experienced an event some time ago. All I can offer is the impact diminishes over time. There is still some latent anger, albeit minimal. Sometimes if I let myself dwell on it, tears come, but mostly it is in the past and there it mostly stays.

At that time I did not get help and chose to deal with it myself. With hindsight it was probably not a good choice. I say probably only because I cannot compare what might have been.

Don't make the same mistake. In saying that, everyone is different and people deal with the same experiences in different ways. At some point you make a choice to move on from it but I don't think that can happen early on. There is truth in the adage that you need time to grieve, time to feel angry - just don't let it define you. And that is harder than it sounds.

Hi all,

Well after nearly 10 years and a little over 2,000 posts time has come to bid OLO farewell.

I always try and put family first and issues have arisen on another thread that have made this decision pretty easy. However I will miss both friend and foe, especially the OLO old timers who have made this such a special place. Keep up the good fight.

I want to thank the host Graham Young for creating and sustaining the site for such a long period.

To all those who have posted on this thread all the best. I will be thinking of you.

Sad to see you go csteele. Your rational, compassionate and reasoned arguments will be missed. Saying 'take care of yourself' sounds hollow but I really mean it, take time to heal and then smell the roses. :)