I read an article on female genital mutilation and was appalled that it was still so widespread a practice. Is this stupid tradition allowed to be inflicted on girls or is it restricted to the adult women? Is it illegal in Australia? If not, why not? This "tradition" is barbaric and robs women of the ability to enjoy sex as much as those who are not mutilated. This practice was obviously first thought up by a man as no woman would think it's a good idea unless they were brainwashed into thinking so by their Religion and culture. The sooner this stupidity is stamped out world wide the better. I thought humanity was more civilised than this!

Just Google the topic if you want to learn more about it.

I agree its appalling and should be banned world-wide but discussing it here isn't going to accomplish anything.

Welcome and congrats on posting this again.
Banjo and myself are strongly against the practice.
And in my case would deport parents who inflict this on their daughters.
A few over looked facts, grave doubt can be cast on it being part of Muslim holly books teaching.
And a case so shocking it would make you sick can be made that its single purpose is to control females.
Attempting to take the pleasure of sex away from them.
Open and shut case *it is wrong* torture* serves no purpose*
Well no you will see some name us xenophobic for just mentioning it here.
If this is Multi Culture ism,let put an end to it, the mixing of cultures if we who have laws against it can not stop it.

PS do not take notice of the other new chum.
We have posted hundreds of posts in many threads about this.
Recent arrests I think have seen charges dropped!
Not sure we can discard any subject based on a single persons thoughts.

Please don't get me wrong. Anyone can bring up any topic they like. I just feel that if a person really does want to learn more about a topic they will be more successful doing further research on respected internet sources than they will asking questions from the armchair experts on this site.

Belly, I may be a newbee upstart in your eyes but I make no apology for disagreeing with most of what you say. Get use to it.

turtlrtimtam,
FGM has been illegal in Aus since 1994 when all states made it illegal. It is mainly carried out in muslim societies, but not all, and there are some non-muslim groups that also practice it. There are 4 catagories of the mutilation and the type practised depends upon cultural tradition.

There is anecdotal evidence that it is carried out here in Aus, but the extent is not known. Our governments have been relying on education but that appears to have failed as the incidence seems to be increasing.

To date no prosecutions have been carried out here, but charges were laid against 8 persons over FGM of 2 girls. These cases have been adjourned a few times and I have lost track but am still hopeful of the prosecutions taking place.

France has had about 100 convictions based on medical examination evidence alone and apparently this has reduced the incidence a lot.

I belong to a group called NO FGM Australia who want to see parents prosecuted for carrying out FGM, with serious penalties and also all 'at risk' girls receive regular medical examinations to detect if mutilations have taken place. This will mean the parents would be revealed and charged. This could be a long way off yet though.

I agree it is a barbaric practice. I believe we should stop allowing immigration from those groups that practice FGM.

Yes it is an awful act of child abuse as far as I am concerned.

I feel the same way about baby boy mutilation too, in the form of male circumcision that is not performed for medical reasons.

All people should be made to wait until they are adults and able to make up their own minds if they want to be cut up or not.

turtletimtam, "This practice (FGM) was obviously first thought up by a man as no woman would think it's a good idea unless they were brainwashed into thinking so by their Religion and culture."

Why not too: "This practice (circumcision) was obviously first thought up by a woman as no man would think it's a good idea unless they were brainwashed into thinking so by their Religion and culture"?

turtletimtam,
It weakens your case when you wage a gender war. It is unnecessary and a distraction.

Rest assured that there are many people who find the ritual and cosmetic interference with the sexual organs of minors, male and female, abhorrent and indefensible. To that must be added body scarification and tatooing of minors. All are done for religious and cultural imperatives that also serve to create divisions in society through building cultural walls.

The creepy interference with lttle boys' penises is also an easy source of income for medical professionals who conveniently forget their oath to 'First do no harm'.

Rather than concentrate on just one brutal and offensive ritual such as FGM, it is more productive to ensure that Australian law is available to all and equally enforced for all, and particularly where children are concerned, with no blindness through misled multiculturalism.

That also applies more broadly, for example to animals where ritual slaughter can be performed without successfully stunning the animal beforehand. History shows that politicians may lean on police and other regulatory authorities to look away where offensive cultural practices are imported.

Ditto mate but lets not get personal OK.
I hope our author will forgive me posting this link
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/tormented-by-shame-he-brought-applause-20130723-2qgp1.html
Yes we can see the awful wrong done to young females.
And yes we should refuse to except that butchery always.
My link , lets be honest, is about a crime, committed by men we trusted our kids to.
I too want to say the recent story finding a woman not guilty, in an Arabic country, after she told of being raped enraged us all.
We however, should consider *what if she never was raped?*
Not trying to take the blame away, but yes, trying to ask just how those we put in power are often unwilling to cut the red tape and fix these problems.

OTB,
While I generally agree with you and medicos argue about any advantages, or not, of male circumcision, all agree that there are no advantages of FGM. Type 11 and 111 FGM remove flesh and organs and is truly horrific and our politicians have turned a blind eye for over two decades. I once asked a previous Health Minister why there had been no prosecutions and her reply was 'there are cultural considerations'.

No Australian girl should have FGM and that is why I think FGM requires specific attention to stop the practice. Excusing it on cultural grounds is a cop out and the perpetrators need to be brought to book. The message must be that FGM is simply not acceptable in our society.

Further information can be found by googling FGM or on NO FGM Australia facebook.

To Belly. Re: The woman raped overseas. I think that Lie detectors could be used by Police as a tool and as a possible deterrent to anyone making a false claim against someone.( Not allowable in court as evidence though.) I'm going to run for the House of Representatives at the election and one of the things I would like to put to a referendum vote is allowing the police to use lie detectors as a tool to help them narrow suspects to a crime. Find out more at www.voteforsanegovernment.com in the "Law and order" page. If I get elected I'll have to see what I can do about prosecutions for female genital mutilation. I'm not that worried over male circumcision though. Those who have it done can still enjoy sex and it's not done as a method of control.

Banjo,

As far as male genital mutilation (MGM) is concerned, it is cosmetic surgery that seeks to improve on what Nature provides. Its basis is that Nature made a mistake with males.

From comparison between a developed nation where circumcision is common, the US being a good example (no guessing why), and the preponderance of other developed nations where circumcision is unheard of, examples being Scandinavian nations, there is no evidence of any benefit from this male genital mutilation. Why take risks with boy infants? Are they dispensible?

There are strong reasons for not separating the practice of female genital surgical interference from all of the other cruel practices waged against children. The main reasons being that it results in splitting of the available resources and effort, and lack of cooperation and fights for territory. It is obvious how wastage of available resporces can occur as well as ill-directed remedial effort. Addressing violence is the same.

As said earlier, rather than concentrate on just one brutal and offensive ritual such as FGM, it is more productive to ensure that Australian law is available to all and equally enforced for all, and particularly where children are concerned, with no blindness through misled multiculturalism. That applies to indigenous children as well.

turtletimtam, "I'm not that worried over male circumcision though. Those who have it done can still enjoy sex and it's not done as a method of control"

Is that so? How much sex do boy infants enjoy?

Why do you reckon it isn't a religious rite and a 'means of control' as you say?

That your prejudice allows you to easily dismiss the risks for boy infants does not recommend you for a vote. Whom were you figuring on representing in the vague chance you might be elected? Certainly not the half of the population that you so easily dismiss.

Also wondering how many boy infants 'want it done'.

Heck, why be concerned about any lack of informed consent where boys are concerned? (sic)

turtletimtam,
The states are responsible for enforcing laws in relation to FGM, it is not a federal responsibility. However immigration could be curtailed for those groups that practice FGM.

OTB,
Yes I would like to see our laws enforced equally. How come we regularly carry out raids and prosecutions of those that partake in cockfighting, yet the laws in relation to FGM are not enforced. One can only deduce that our politicians believe cruelty to roosters is far more important than deliberately causing pain and lifelong suffering to little girls, by FGM. Parents must be made accountable, and make no mistake, FGM is child sexual abuse.

Banjo,

I am the first to agree that the laws are applied unevenly. The ethnic vote is important and sometimes the activist and multicultural lobby tail wags the Australian law enforcement dog. I said earlier, "History shows that politicians may lean on police and other regulatory authorities to look away where offensive cultural practices are imported".

More often than not, the very lobbyists and activists who claim to be representing a cultural group are the worst enemies of children of that group. An example is the awful sexual abuse and violence affecting aboriginal children. Activists and the communities themselves refuse to acknowledge the abuses that are occurring and accuse any well-intending politician or whistle-blower of 'racism' and worse for trying to help the children affected. No shame tolerated and the abuses continue unabated.

Activists and advocates lend aid to the abusers because they will not tolerate what they construe as any criticiam of their own spin, or of aboriginal culture (as they describe it). They shore up their claims and their careers too, by ensuring that the worst nightmare of aboriginal children comes true, which is that the children's cries of suffering are never heard by the general public. Or if the cries are heard, the causes are always seen as external.

One only has to remember the number of well-intentioned politicians and others who have been howled down as 'racists' on the ABC's Q&A program for having the temerity to criticise and suggest improve conditions for young aboriginal mothers and children.

turtletimtam yes I agree, but my purpose in posting the link and talking about that rape was to highlight we all go off on tangents at times.
My first though was pure rage.
But I too remember women all over the world have lied about this and later said so.
Who truly knows.
Banjo good stuff not enough of us get off our bottoms and act.
I truly think a fixed term in prison should exist here for torturers of female kids .
If only all the activists who think so firmly about animal cruelty and saving the Wales, a host of protesters would just sign a page and send the world world wide we are not in the middle ages.
Surely if we tried we could get a million, more even to say enough?

For once, I am in total agreement with onthebeach.

We should all be yelling out loud and clear that ALL child mutilation, in the form of FGM and male circumscision should be banned unless is it for medical reasons.

I have been firmly against these practices since being forced to restrain screaming baby boys, as a young midwife, while doctors hacked off the baby's foreskins...often just because Dad wanted them to look like him!

Then later, I was present at several traumatic births by Arab women who had been circumscised as children, and were now being cut open again to allow the passage of their babies...

Belly,
The horrors of FGM are diluted by those that equate it with male circumcision. The fact is that the laws are not enforced because of political reasons and Aussie girls are being subjected to this barbaric tradition for no practical reason.

In 1994 the polys made laws in all states making FGM illegal which, no doubt, made them feel good but it was a farce because they have ignored enforcing the laws.

Unless attitudes change soon, it will take a death of some poor girl before action is taken. I suggest it is only our medical expertise that has prevented deaths thus far, but that cannot continue. At some point parents will seek medical help too late to save their daughter.

There are many injustices that need correction and FGM is one such that can be easily achieved by the enforcement of existing laws. France has shown how to do this and we should follow their lead.

There is no excuse, all immigrants are informed that FGM is illegal here before getting a visa.

Banjo, "The horrors of FGM are diluted by those that equate it with male circumcision"

With respect, that is completely untrue. It is not a zero-sum game. No-one here is diminishing the horrors of FGM.

As for any law passed to make any particular barbaric practice such as FGM illegal, there were and are already legal remedies in available law. As is so often the case, governments are prone to passing redundant laws as a sop to noisy activists and a media that uses sensationalism to sell to a dumbed down audience.

However politicians are also subject to electoral blackmail as mentioned earlier by the same groups and by a general population that are often too busy working and taking care of their families to dig deeply to find any truth in the fodder and spin that are the produce of news outlets.

It is a simple fact that where there is a wedge of determined religious believers in an electorate and they use their influence effectively as many do, religious rituals and beliefs will be reflected in behaviour, laws and in policing. As an example of the last mentioned, police are sledged for publishing descriptions of offenders that could offend cultural groups. Religions can even affect the selection of the polling date out of respect for the religion. That is notwithstanding the availability of absentee voting.

This is a secular State. But that status is constantly under challenge and so often by migrants who claim to have fled the very persecution they would instal here. Go figure!

OTB,
I strongly disagree. The argument against FGM is diluted by those that equate it with Male circumcision. A little research will reveal why this is so, they are totally different and the impact on the child is far more serious with FGM.

In the same manner that the argument against forced marriages is derailed by those introducing polygamy into the discussion. They are totally different issues. Or the illegal entrants issue being confused with immigration in general.

Oh, and male circumcision is legal and the pros and cons are debated by medical people. There is no debate about FGM as there are no advantages, it is just a wilful act of butchery that instils misery for the victims for the rest of their lives. There is every good reason as to why it is against the law.

Banjo,

You could put the same argument for turning a blind eye to any and all abuses of children outside of your favoured FGM. That thinking is more in line with gender feminism - we're alright Jack, so never you mind.

I regard FGM as an obscenity. I totally reject it and want authorities to be vigilant in discouraging it wherever it occurs.

For your part you have not addressed any of the thoughts I have put forward on the issue. You just want FGM up there in lights for funding and action, and hang other child abuse. You believe that action to reduce other abuses detracts from, you say 'dilutes' action against FGM. That is untrue. It is also unsatisfactory. There are indigenous children being raped daily and infants are presenting with sexually transmitted diseases. What about them?

Obviously you do not object to cutting male infants. But it is also objectionable cosmetic surgery which ought be discouraged, never funded from taxpayers' money and DEFINITELY NOT claimable from Medicare unless medically required. How can an infant give informed consent?

It does not come down to a zero sum game. Strength in counteracting child neglect and child abuse will come from a coordinated response. Hiving off bits of taxpayers' money to narrow, special interests and lobby groups just wastes available funds and leads to counterproductive competition, lack of coordination especially between the layers of government, and territorial squabbling.

Banjo yes and I am aware of it.
The whole reason for it is not taken in to account.
In my past job it was a ploy others used to mix up the subject so keeping on the right track and not being diverted is the way around it.
Show me however how many males die from it?
The horror of FGM should not be hidden under a lets change the subject move.
No way now but if given a chance at birth?
Jump at it.

OTB,
No, I have not addressed any of the subjects you raised because I try to stick to the subject of the thread.

I am glad you consider FGM an obscenity, as I do.
As I said here earlier there are many issues that need correction.

If you consider that some other matters need discussion you are free to post them and maybe I will contribute. Especially if someone else has not posted my thoughts.

In the meantime I think it courtesy for one to stick to the thread subject if possible.

Banjo,

The thread is concerned with the law applying to FGM and how to ensure the cultural practice is restricted. My posts are very relevant to that.

I notice that Tanya Plibersek has granted $1million to fifteen separate projects on FGM.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/ministers/publishing.nsf/Content/mr-yr13-tp-tp080.htm

While I don't doubt that such community groups are likely to be enthusiastic and earnest in their intent, that alone does not dispel my argument that it is more efficient and productive and there is greater value for money obtained from coordinating all effort under the one umbrella. I will refer you again to a previous post,

<There are strong reasons for not separating the practice of female genital surgical interference from all of the other cruel practices waged against children. The main reasons being that it results in splitting of the available resources and effort, and lack of cooperation and fights for territory. It is obvious how wastage of available resporces can occur as well as ill-directed remedial effort. Addressing violence is the same.

As said earlier, rather than concentrate on just one brutal and offensive ritual such as FGM, it is more productive to ensure that Australian law is available to all and equally enforced for all, and particularly where children are concerned, with no blindness through misled multiculturalism. That applies to indigenous children as well.>

A common cause of obtaining poor value for money from taxpayers money in addressing social and health issues is the lack of direction, coordination, cooperation and robust measures of success among the plethora of public and private organisations, and the territoriality of the professionals and agencies involved. Duplication and competing objectives are other problems that ensure wastage of money.

The concern must be to get the very best outcomes and value for money from the bucket of taxpayers' money, of which there is never an unlimited supply.

Banjo I am not very good at some things you can do on a PC.
My generation mostly, is not, but I try.
Change an on line activist page seems a useful place to start a campaign.
You like me,will ignore many lefty type things but it gets results.
Not sure GY wants to turn us in to such a site but what if we could vote or put our name in support of this matter.
People power will play a far bigger roll in the future.
We must find a way around the walls politicians build to keep us waiting for true actions against this and other injustices here in our country.
Mate may be wrong but think I saw news those charges have been dropped because of lack of evidence.

Belly,
I think you may have mistaken the NSW case with another in WA which was dropped. The WA case involved a couple intending to take their baby to Indonesia for FGM. They were stopped at the airport here and charges laid. However the WA DPP dropped the case because it is difficult to prove intent. Had they actually carried out the FGM there would have been a case.

I believe the NSW case is still to go ahead. This involves 8 persons charged, including the parents, a retired nurse and an Imam. The victims were two girls from the same family.

Although the type of FGM carried out, in this case, may not have been the most severe, it will be interesting as to how the court views it. If the penalty is appropriate, I think it will be a deterrent. But alien cultural practices are hard to stop. Especially if they can be hidden.

To On the beach. I repeat, I'm not that concerned over male circumcision. I don't dismiss it's risks either. But males who have had this done to them can still enjoy life to the fullest. Women who have had F.G.M. done to them cannot. I would rather spend my time trying to stop the abhorrent practices that impact so severely on individuals than on trying to stop practices than affect individuals to a far lesser degree. I wouldn't worry about my being elected, I'm a very long shot at best. Nobody seems to care about the House of Reps, least of all the media, but that's a discussion for another thread.

turtletimtam,

You are wrong. Dozens of African boys died annually from penis cutting. Many hundreds more suffered serious harm from poor procedures and infection.

That is why African governments have outlawed the religious and cultural tradition of cutting being performed by religious ratbags in the field. But even where performed in hospitals (and even in developed countries cutting of boys is still done outside hospitals) deaths still occur.

http://endmalecircumcision.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/another-circumcised-baby-bleeds-to.html

An infant has very little blood. A mother would not notice the apparent tiny quantity lost into a nappy that will cause the baby to lapse into unconciousness and death.

It is the same stupidity and cruelty that is directed at girls by their mothers, female relatives and other women. Female cutting is performed by women in the field. Of course the girls usually between age 4 and 12 are sorely harmed and some die. If performed in hospital, deaths and infection would be greatly reduced as for male cutting.

But cutting of girls or boys remains disgusting, unnecessary cosmetic surgery. The child minor is incapable of giving informed consent to body modification and risks that could result in death.

If cutting of girls is seen as discrimination, so then is cutting of boys. In both cases it should be left to their adulthood to choose. Later, some men and women do choose surgical modification. Their choice, but the taxpayer shouldn't pay where the cutting was not medically necessary.

There is no competition. There is no zero sum game. The cosmetic cutting of girls and boys is abhorrent and should be discouraged. For those who are concerned that action against the cutting of boys might somehow reduce the government grants that are available for women's issues and girl cutting, that is completely ridiculous. So go in peace. Equivalent concern for both genders will not harm girls.

I truly hope I am wrong Banjo.
But think I may not be.
Had a conversation about this subject today.
Willing to follow others on this.
But too am trying to get a page up to let people put their names down to press state and federal police to action this issue.
Any one got a link to a page that is trying?
We should use such pages to get things done.

Parents may be wondering how little blood an infant can lose before collapse and death.

See here,

http://www.drmomma.org/2010/05/death-from-circumcision.html

Belly,
If you can find out any more about the NSW FGM case let me know. There was a news article about the dropped WA case a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know of any on line petition or similar, but would be interested.

to on the beach. you're still not getting my point. I don't dismiss the fact that there are deaths from both circumcision and F.G.M. there are always risks when anyone cuts into a human, male or female, especially if it is done outside of a hospital by the untrained. I'm talking about the ramifications to the victim when either procedure is done. The results of a successful circumcision are minor, the results of a successful F.G.M. however is to rob a female of being able to feel the full range of pleasure she is now forever denied. The male equivalent would be not just cutting off the foreskin but lopping off the head of the penis. I'm sorry if my lack of outrage over circumcision offends, but to my mind, needless deaths aside, fighting to end circumcision comes a distant second.

Turtletimtam I like that post.
Again thanks for the thread.
But too what a sorry lot we humans are, really!
Banjo supported by myself have waited for action on this matter.
Surely no one can say other than it is as you said in that post, savage cruelty to stop women enjoying sex.
*To control women*
We would put a hundred posts together in two days if this was about climate change/Labors faults/ we need the youth to drive action on this and so many dreadful things no human should have to face.
We must confront if this crime against humanity was about cruelty to animals, we would now be on page 25 of a huge thread.

Belly,
A day has past and no one has come forward with info about any online petition, so looks like it has not been thought of.

I cannot comprehend how someone could cut pieces off little girls, it is totally alien and repugnant to me. Just read a piece that said it takes about 20 minutes to do a type 111 FGM, and sew it up. Imagine that without any anesthesia. Lots of reports coming from UK and Nth Africa, summer is their cutting season. If we cannot stop FGM here there is no hope in other countries where it is so ingrained.

It seems apathy is the problem. I hope I am wrong but I reckon it will take a death or two before any real action is taken here.

Banjo well said, a problem is, for me at least my age.
I maybe you, did not have childhood computers .
I am not much good at starting polls in such threads.
But that may change with two others I am trying to kick start a community center.
IF we make it just maybe we can harness people power in such matters.
I mostly live in this section of OLO, know from time to time GY polls us.
Unsure he wants something deeper, but some one who has the skill could help out.
IF ONLY we could get 50.000 to sign it and send it to state and federal politicians and the media.
How hard would it be?
Some surf all day on double face book fussing about how the morning coffee tasted if only some one cared enough.

Again my understanding is that male and female circumcision are practiced for different reasons. For the male there is the presumption of health whilst for the female it is simply a male desire to take away any achieved pleasure during intercourse from the female thus maintaining male dominance. She is less likely to stray from the fold.

Its my understanding that the limited research does not back up the oft repeated claim that FGM is primarily a male perpetuated thing.

It does not appear to be a clear issue however the stuff I've seen on the issue would suggest that the blaming men game is no more than sexism.

If I find more exhaustive research (not a topic I tend to keep references for) I'll post them but a brief on the topic from WHO might be enough to prompt further consideration. https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/2010/WHO_RHR_HRP_10.16_eng.pdf

Its a cultural issue that will be better helped by a lot less gender blame game thinking.

R0bert

The two views above mine are in fact the way I see it.
No disrespect to other posters is meant.
But some times a blind is placed and maybe picked up by others who are unaware, to cloud issues.
I under stand I could be wrong,totally.
But here is what The facts tell me.
In males it is done as an act of cleanliness.
And many will argue to increase the enjoyment of sex.
In women it is done in my unshakable view to control women, stop the enjoyment of sex.
Yesterday I heard a clear description on ABC Radio National, of why some believe in things that are not true.
It wisely in my view told of folk protesting against wind power , becoming ill.
And developing the symptoms said to come from the innocuous wind mills.
They let them selves believe the untrue even talk them selves in to getting sick.
* Here is a danger not to be ignored*
Some never believe anything a conservationist says ever! because of too many blind and untrue fallacy's perpetrated by the unknowing.
It ended that show with a truism.
To mistake the wind in the trees for a Bear is OK.
But to mistake a Bear for wind in the trees can be fatal.

Belly, "The facts tell me. In males it is done as an act of cleanliness. And many will argue to increase the enjoyment of sex."

Your prejudice might inform you so. Particularly if you are Islamic, Jewish or are making $$ out of cutting boys.

Belly, "In women it is done in my unshakable view to control women, stop the enjoyment of sex."

Cutting girls is based on ignorance and tradition. There are risks and it does change appearance and affect inclusion by women in their culture. It is done without the informed consent of the child victim. It is discriminatory, just as cutting boys is discriminatory.

There is no acceptable reason why infants are denied the protection of Australian law. The cutting of boy babies and other body modification such as tribal tattooing performed on minors without informed consent is already illegal under the law. It is assault causing grievous bodily harm against the most vulnerable in society who have no voice and no way of protecting themselves. But the lawa are not enforced. Aboriginal children can be child brides too, for example. That is the power of fundamentalist religion and fundamentalist multiculturalism.

Cutting of girls is unlawful in Australia. Cutting of infant boys is allowed and religious fundamentalists have the gall to demand that the Australian taxpayer pay for their religious rite, through Medicare.

If the cutting of girls is done to control them and to limit enjoyment of sex the same motivations are well documented where cutting of boys is concerned. It is not the fault of one gender, males, the cutting of girls is done at the request and will of mothers and female relatives, female friends and with the support of female society. Women take the children to be cut, women even trick girls into it and they reject girls who haven't been ritually cut to tradition. Women perform the practices, including the actual cutting. No man is allowed to take part.

Mothers want their girls to look like them, just as some men want their sons to be cut like them.

Contd..

Continued..

While it serves the feminist blame game to use the 'M' word when referring to female cutting, and doubtless it assists in getting government grants to link women+discrimination+sex+'M', it could be counterproductive to refer to mutiliation where cut immigrant women are concerned. Because it could cause them to withdraw in shame.

All cut women are immigrants and they are exclusively the group likely to have their daughters done. It would be more diplomatic, sensitive, empathic and reasonable to refer instead to cutting if those women are to come forward. They are harmed already. So why not have some consideration for what they feel and use the more acceptable term, cutting? Or are sexual politics and the dollars that go with it more important?

It is barbaric to mutilate girls for sexual preservation and privation. Lock the mongrels up and throw away the key.

OTB,
All women who have undergone FGM may not be immigrants.

There is anecdotal evidence, from medical staff, that women that underwent FGM here years ago are now having their own daughters 'done'. This is despite being raised in our western society and schooled here.

Changing the description of FGM to FGC is not going to entice these women to come forward and where exactly do you propose they come forward to. The women that have endured FGM are known to medical staff during their pregnancy and birthing. But you are right in that it is their daughters that are 'at risk'.

It is important that the 'at risk' girls be medically examined regularly so the parents know they will be caught out if they have their daughters mutilated. Then if the penalties are serious, the practice in Australia will stop.

Have you stopped to think that if the laws are enforced properly in relation to FGM, it may be an opportunity for those that oppose male circumcision to push their case. At this point getting persons prosecuted for FGM is far more likely than getting the same for male circumcision.

I believe that priority that must be given to ensuring that children, in fact all Australians, have the full protection of Australian law. I am not open to any 'ifs', 'buts' or concessions.

How can anyone be active in opposing cutting of girls (or boys) without having seen the presentation by medical professionals that is renouned world-wide for describing the practices, the roots and solutions? Here it is,

Whose Body, Whose Rights, Parts 1&2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0kr6BiVZMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAjpzpF6qM

Yes it does concentrate on the very common mutilations performed in the US, which are against male babies, but the principles and drivers are the same. The US is one of the biggest mutilators of child sex organs in the world. It is supported by ignorance and people ensuring they themselves remain ignorant, lest they are required to face the reality of the cruelty they allow against infants.

You need to understand that the same common denominators apply to sexual mutilation of males and females. The law must be uniformly available to all and enforced. It is not a zero sum game.

Somali born author Ayaan Hisi Ali described in detail the procedure having endured it herself. Like some other Islamic custom it seems to be enforced by Grandmothers. The complications in later life can be horrendous, fistulas are common, childbirth and the first sexual experience usually require the cutting of scar tissue to gain entry or to enlarge the vagina.

Siller,
You are absolutely right, FGM is far more serious and the ongoing effects are horrendous. That is why there is far more emphasis on FGM.

FGM is against the law in Aus and it needs enforcing. I am aware of one case pending and, hopefully, with more to follow.

Too much for me having seen the horrendous ongoing medical problems in Somalia. But the that is nothing I suppose to having you hands and feet cut off when they no longer have any use for you. Death becomes a relief.

OTB you are aware some do not have the confidence in you, that you hold?
In reference to my thoughts re the male op you seem to think my view is not based on evidence?
In truth you can be hard to follow, Jews have it from their holly book.
But as *any man knows* cleanliness is a by product.
And for that reason westerners too get it done.
*NOT FOR RELIGION*
Nothing read here has turned my views, yet in a way my warning of blind side tracks has been proved .

Belly,

Do yourself the favour of opening your mind up to at least watching the videos posted above. Here again,

Whose Body, Whose Rights, Parts 1&2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0kr6BiVZMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAjpzpF6qM

Men of your generation know nothing about the procedure, but you recommend it for infants. Yet there are medical people including nurses on here who have tried to get you and others to examine the procedure and the case against it. Here, this is the procedure you support,

http://thebirthingsite.com/newborn-health/item/39-video-of-male-circumcision-graphic.html

General comments,
On the cutting of girls,

<EMILY BOURKE: Hanny Lightfoot-Klein is a leading international expert on female genital mutilation. Her research across Africa over several decades has been published in four books. She says categorically there is no link with Islam.

HANNY LIGHTFOOT-KLEIN: No one really knows where the whole thing started. It's often been described as Muslim but there's nothing really, you investigate all the Muslim actual activities and it's never been actually, it's not because of the religion.

EMILY BOURKE: And she adds that one of the features of the practice is that it's perpetrated by women on their daughters.>

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3590127.htm

There is no need to be concerned that the taxpayers' money available for grants to FGM will be reduced, such as the $1million of grants recently given to it. Sadly there is no likelihood that Tanya Plibersek would ever approve any grant of taxpayers' money for a publicity campaign to reduce the cutting of hundreds boy infants annually. That is regardless of the suffering and risks, including risk of death.

the non religous practice of murdering the unborn makes circumcism look mild. Redefining words can't change that fact.

Runner, run away and start your own thread on abortion if you can't comment on anything else.

Having been personally involved in male circumcisions, and hearing personal accounts from other medical professionals also involved, I can tell you they aren't done these days for health or cleanliness reasons any more. (unless it is attended when some boys are older and have unusually tight foreskins).

The days of circumcising baby boys because they may never be taught to wash behind their own foreskins in hot weather, or won't be able to wash at the war 'fronts' are thankfully behind us.

They are done for religious reasons for Jewish baby boys, and for various other reasons for others. The overwhelming reason is because daddy had had it done, and he wanted his boy to look like him.

It is almost always men that do the male circumcisions in Australia, and I believe in most countries

Susie,
Had to laugh, you telling runner to start his own thread, when your post is totally off topic.

OTB, again your info is wrong.
FGM is overwhelmingly a muslim practice. There are a few non-muslims that practice it, but not many.

It is not mentioned in the Koran, but other Islamic books talk about it and even quote the prophet on the matter.

Some Islamic religious leaders support it and others do not.

It certainly is not helpful when Imans such as Alfroz Ali say, 'Circumcision is the divine right of a woman under Islam'

Banjo, if I'm off topic discussing male circumcision then so is everyone else, including you < " At this point getting persons prosecuted for FGM is far more likely than getting the same for male circumcision."

It is obviously not such a stretch equating male circumcision with female circumcision is it?
In any case, your main problem of Muslim immigration to this country is only thinly disguised by your professed disgust with FGM.

Banjo,

It was not my information. If you go to the ABC link you will find it is the finding of the expert the ABC found to interview. See here,

"Hanny Lightfoot-Klein is a leading international expert on female genital mutilation. Her research across Africa over several decades has been published in four books. She says categorically there is no link with Islam."

That rather surprised me too considering what I recall from the links I posted earlier, which are I believe authoritative and independent. These ones,

Whose Body, Whose Rights, Parts 1&2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0kr6BiVZMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAjpzpF6qM

Another circumstance where Muslims have a tradition that is said not to be part of Islam? Europe's experience of the practice seems otherwise and we wouldn't want to follow Europe's experience.

Sometimes I wonder though about the editorial policies of the ABC and the SBS. Specifically if their editorial policies influence the experts they choose.

OTB look lets no let diplomacy get in the way of the truth.
I can be diplomatic but it is the profession of tellers of lies.
At my age?
You are not a sub teenager are you.
Your posts miss placed self confidence seem to point to it.
IQ is not related to age, understanding is not.
My education is not over I learn much every day.
You taught me something.
*You are overly self confedent, and prone to being a bit rude to those you disagree with*.
I thousand books? no many more and double that in web pages, my education came/comes from them.
Before any of your links existed the Jewish race, followed by others, took out the knife on male babys to?
Well ask, if that is needed, is it cleaner? safer? is it also possible it is giving better sex.
The reason it continues world wide is far from FGM spite and hate filled reason to exist.
Women, world wide should be crying at the thought of the torture girls have forced on them.

Susie,
You said, "It is obviously not such a stretch equating male circumcision with female circumcision is it?"

Yes it is a long stretch as there is nothing similar and especially when yourself and OTB endeavour to hijack the thread to push you own agenda. You should take your own advice and start another thread. Not that hard really.

Despite your assumption, my disgust for FGM is real and I have made considerable effort to have the laws enforced in my state. If we are serious about stopping FGM the parents must be prosecuted and serious penalties imposed. NO Aussie born girl should have to endure FGM.

Belly,

Did you look at the videos posted earlier? These ones,

Whose Body, Whose Rights, Parts 1&2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0kr6BiVZMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAjpzpF6qM

and

http://thebirthingsite.com/newborn-health/item/39-video-of-male-circumcision-graphic.html

If so, rather than attack me personally you should be attempting to dispel the facts therein.

- What facts do you have to discount the views of those independent medical professionals?

- For the last mentioned video that shows the procedure, what evidence do you have that the little baby suffers no pain and no aftermath? What pain is OK to inflict on a child and for what purposes?

In the cutting video, after shrieking with pain the child lapses into semi-concious states through shock. The disgraceful circumciser pretends that the child is pain free because he has stopped 'fussing'. What a disgusting lie, lack of ethics and typical of those who B.S. some 'good' or other from cutting perfectly healthy and normal babies. He also lies about the anaesthetic.

Notwithstanding that, what paediatrician would ever approve the use of anaesthetics or surgical procedure for an infant? Even where some surgical intervention is absolutely neccessary on health grounds the medical team is loathe to proceed. Next, what monster would put an wee baby through such frightful pain, shock and risk of haemorrhage?

You now have the facts. Just how do you justify your callousness? You appear to bury your head in the sand. Then you say you are concerned about the cutting of girls.

Belly,
Personally, I would not respond to OTB, unless I wrote exclusively about FGM. As you said before, he is diverting the discussion.

Banjo you are quite right and I will stay away.
As you and I know all efforts to take the spotlight away from dreadful things done to young women is evil or insane.
But it will continue to be the only tool in the box for some.

"all efforts to take the spotlight away from dreadful things done to young women is evil or insane

That's one way of looking at it but I'm not a big fan of dealing with issues like that in isolation. All too often in my view it results in worse outcomes overall.

I'm not convinced that male circumcision is generally in the same range of harm as female genital mutilation. Male circumcision is an unnecessary procedure with no evidence of long term harm and only minor benefits if any. It's generally performed before the individual has any option to provide informed consent.

Female genital mutilation has long lasting and serious impacts on those mutilated. Generally very different outcomes.

That does not mean that the fight against one benefits by ignoring the other. To my view the case against FGM is strengthened by a stand against any mutilation of children which is based on the parents wants rather than pressing medical needs.

Adults don't have the right to unnecessarily alter children bodies to suit their own preferences. Their may be cases where there are important medical or psychological reasons to undertake procedures to correct issues but neither form of genital mutilation falls into that category.

R0bert

RObert with respect.
In answering you OTB wins!
But can we agree based on the male body this procedure probably made its way in to the Jewish faith, as an act of cleanliness?
And do we too agree it is debated,not proved, that it is an aid to male sexual enjoyment?
Even Suseonline said some times, because it is too tight, males past child hood get it done.
So yes the child has no say in it.
But is the end result in any way, to control males?
Is it in any way to stop men enjoying sex.
Is there any chance it is cleaner? enhances sex act for men.
How much can be said from that list is the same for FGM?
Am I having myself on? is it not true harm and deaths come from FGM is it against the law here.
Is Male Circumcision against the law here, if not why not if in any way it is equal to FGM.
Is isolating a crime from a non crime wrong, is it just showing concerns that such a dreadful act against women is wrong.
Not shouting not sweating not angry with you or any poster just that this subject in my view questions our humanity.
Those poor little girls!

If there was any benefit whatsoever from cutting males, as farmers we would have been circumcising farm animals for years. Australian farming is highly efficient.

But there is no benefit, only harm. Regettably circumcisers have been coming up with 'benefits' for countless years in attempts to justify their cruelty in infant boys and girls.

In boys the foreskin has attachments to the penis that gradually release normally as they mature. It is so often damage done through (painfully) forcing the forteskin back in childhood that causes problems later. However, as with females, any male medical problem with plumbing design is not usual at all and where it occurs, medical treatmentcan be provided if and when it occurs.

The foul practice and crime of cutting girls is has been also rationalised as being for cleanliness and the folds of the vulva are more likely to hide bacteria. It is not funny at all that while women are finally escaping their own attitudes towards normal vulvas/vaginas and are advisedly using only water to clean the area, the circumcisers mainly religious fundamentalists and bent physicians profiting from unnecessary cosmetic surgery are persisting in giving boys and young men complexes about 'dirty' penises that must be cut to be clean.

The US is one of the big cutting countries of the world as far as boys are concerned. In the US, medical providers risk abuse and legal suits for following science and their conscience in objecting to providing routine cutting of boy infants.

Here is Dr. Michelle Storms' presentation at the NOCIRC Symposium, Berkeley California 2010, an independent highly trained woman's view on cutting. Intending mothers should take the time watch it and act on their own conscience later to resist the offensive religious fundies and charlatans who claim to improve on what a mother has borne,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWpZLhz8Isc

to be continued..

contd..

My views were given in my first post, of Tuesday, 23 July 2013 11:40:37 PM and I have said repeatedly it isn't a zero sum game. I strongly believe that effectiveness, efficiency and value for money in preventing the import and growth of cruel and inhuman traditions is obtained by national coordination and a whole of government approach.

So often the main opponents to that practical simplicity and quest for measurable, effective results from spending taxpayers' money are the very people who claim to want to abolish the practices but are getting some employment, government grant or secondary gain from the inefficiency of splitting effort, and the money taken from taxpayers.

It is absolute nonsense for example that concern for other cruelty affecting children somehow detracts from government responsibility and results in preventing female cutting in Australia. All children should expect the same rights and protections of Australian law and that is not negotiable. What 'contracting' out government responsibility to a plethora of private individuals and groups can do though is to diminish ministerial and government accountability for results obtained. It also promotes the very inefficient duplication of effort and destructive, wasteful fights over territory and dog in the manger attitudes that bedevil the successful delivery of health and other social programs.

Private contractors have a role. However that is best served through a coordinated whole of government approach.

Banjo forgive me, have you ever circumcised a Bull.
How far some wander to try to divert a thread.

Belly,
Have castrated hundreds of bull calves and thousands of ram lambs, but never circumcised any. There are a few humans that need castration and penis removal as well, but that should be in the jailing thread.

Poor OTB gets things mixed up at times.

Is it ignorance or stupidity?

Banjo,

You and Belly could be bookends. LOL

In your first post you declared that you are a member of a group that presumably hopes to benefit from government grants. I know nothing of that group so I do not comment on it. However there is no surprise you would attack me personally for suggesting that government obtains the best value for money (from taxpayers' $$) where delivery is nationally coordinated under whole of government initiatives.

In your first post you demanded that "all 'at risk' girls receive regular medical examinations to detect if mutilations have taken place". That is a remarkably authoritarian and insensitive denial of the rights and privacy of the girls. It would in itself guarantee fear, withdrawal and opposition. You have no empathy at all with these women and no appreciation of the psychological effect of the dangerous regimes some come from.

As well, you want to ban immigration (and refugees?) from "those groups that practice FGM". Don't you realise the silliness and unfairness of banning the very victims themselves and others who flee such practices?

You just don't seem to be aware of even the basics of relating to a different culture, let alone how to manage change. You assume your world views are correct without considering alternative possibilities.

You have managed to further convince me that it is crucial that government adopts national coordination and a whole of government approach. Government must consider the broad implications of policies and integration and implementation strategies, short and long term.

OTB,
Now you are back on topic, I will respond.

Firstly, the group I belong to (NO FGM Australia) does not seek and nor has it received any government grants. It is funded by members.

Secondly, I did not 'demand' anything. You assume too much. I said my group believed all 'at risk' girls should have regular medical checks to determine if they had been mutilated. Sure that would generate fear, fear in the adults that they will be caught out if they mutilate their daughters and also, hopefully, that message conveyed to others overseas that they would have to give up practicing FGM if they immigrate to Australia. This would be done if government was serious about stoping FGM.

Certainly stop immigration of the groups that practice FGM here. I have no hesitation in stopping immigration of those groups that cannot/will not integrate in our society. Similarly with groups that practice other alien customs. Like stoning women or honour killing and child marriages, or continue to carry violent age old hatreds of other groups. The ideology of multiculturalism is a farce.

You are right in one thing, I have little time for the alien aspects of some cultures. Those that practice FGM thumb their noses at our society and standards. We do not have to simply accept alien aspects of other cultures.

Don't forget we have tried education for nearly 20 years and the incidents of FGM are getting higher. I repeat no Aussie born girl should endure FGM.

My understanding is that, in Western society at least, male circumcision is carried out on very small babies, and as a properly performed medical procedure. Snip, and a small piece of skin of small value to the individual is removed.
Whether this is meritorious in the long term is questionable, but to consider it a severe malfeasance to the individual would appear rather overblown.

FGM on the other hand appears to be performed on much older girls, even teenagers, and in all cases is demonstrably detrimental to the well-being of the victim of such abuse, both physically and psychologically.
In extreme cases the mutilation inflicted is horrendous, involving removal of the minor and major labia, and of the clitoris - and even the sewing-up of the vagina, supposedly to ensure 'purity' before marriage as a proven and provable virgin.
This is nothing short of savage torture and barbarity, for which there can be no adequate excuse.

To conflate male penile circumcision with FGM (in any of its forms) is inane, and is an outright criminal sleight and defamation of each and every victim of FGM.

The world needs sense to tackle the barbarous and unconscionable 'practice' of FGM, not idiots running about crying about little boys 'bits'.

Gday morning onthebeach hows your day been.
We do not get along you and I do we.
Well once went OK in dispute resolution, thought it,may be worth an effort.
No on thinking about it, not worth the effort.
Seems we have both made up our minds.
See I remain convinced, dreamer that I am, some things are too important to ignore.
And too that a conversation about say sea water being desalted for our use, is not helped by talking about the mud it may bring.
Others have said post above mine, about the male op on baby,s.
Banjo, how OTB did your mind make up that government [cash thing?] and I talk of young girls being.
*BUTCHERED* dieing some times because of that savage act.
FGM is too important for wandering minds to get in the way.
Are we human enough to see that.

Belly,

Did you ever look at the videos I provided for you? Or doesn't your prejudice and need to play foolish win/lose games permit you to do that?

Saltpetre,

What about doing everyone the service and respect of reading previous posts before you launch and eschew the Strawman rhetoric, which has been used so many times by others already on this thread. You will see that each time it has been dismissed as the fallacy it is.

Your Eighties feminism might 'advise' you, but very poorly and with prejudice and malice aforethought it would seem. You need to open your mind to the inconvenient facts as well. For starters, you are one of several in this thread who do not believe that babies experience pain and that infants have a right too (as well as you) to protection against cosmetic body modification. Here is the simple snip and little bit of skin to which you refer.

http://thebirthingsite.com/newborn-health/item/39-video-of-male-circumcision-graphic.html

and,

here is Dr. Michelle Storms' presentation at the NOCIRC Symposium, Berkeley California 2010, an independent, woman doctor's professional view on cutting. Intending mothers should take the time watch it and act on their own conscience later to resist the offensive religious fundies and charlatans who claim to improve on what a mother has borne,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWpZLhz8Isc

Banjo,

There isn't anything in you post that hasn't been dealt with already and likely several times over. However you have managed to make it very obvious how you differ with Labor's policies on multiculturalism, immigration and its handling of the cutting of girls. While many might similarly question those policies, you go further than most. Yes, the policies are flawed in many ways and Labor's idealism and intransigence continue to produce unintended consequences. I think I have dealt with what I see as the deficiencies in earlier posts.

Try this one on for size. They even try to hide the prevalence within their community.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/solicitor-charged-over-genital-mutilation-of-sisters-20130801-2r0n4.html

That is nasty stuff, even more so because professionals are involved.

Education and western medical ethics, but still no barrier against committing the cruel offences. What hope for the next generation?

Belly,
chrisgaff1000 found an smh ref to the NSW FGM case, so it has not been dropped. The cops have charged another as well.

Thanks Chris, I had lost track of that case as it had been adjourned several times. Look forward to the outcome.

Great news.
Thanks Chris and Banjo.
I had feared it was going to be another white wash.
Once in the hands of most magistrates and judges we see the revolving door syndrome and offenders walk away.

It is very, very poor that professionals were involved.

That raises two issues at least:

- firstly, as part of its extreme form of multiculturalism and through pressure from government funded pressure groups the federal government has leaned on professions such as medicine to lower the bar to allow more migrants with claimed equivalent training to establish their professional practises in Australia. Even where equivalent practical training can be claimed, there can remain doubts about imported attitudes and values that can easily be at odds with those of Australians. However the federal government would much prefer to find hospital placements for foreign medical students and bring in doctors from abroad than train our own brightest. For many years now the federal government, Labor and LNP alike, has limited the medical places available to young Australians and brought in many overseas doctors.

and

- secondly, annually the federal government is setting new records of immigration while Australian couples practice the responsible zero population growth that was strongly encouraged by academics and government from the Sixties on. Annually the feds bring in migrant numbers the equivalent of several large cities the size of (say) Rockhampton in Queensland.

As well as overtaxing the community to pay for the stretched infrastructure, examples being ramped up costs of housing, vehicle registration, power and water, the high numbers of immigrants and asylum seekers are ensuring that the previous prudent policy of not having too many from one cultural group brought in or located together has been forgotten. Worse, multiculturalists seem to think it is a good idea to have enclaves of ethnic groups. Remember Malcolm Fraser's huge mistake that is now a running sore of violence and drive-bye shootings in Sydney, which was once a peaceful city.

to be continued..

contd..

Breaking that rule where ethnic traditions and cultures are at odds with Australian values and laws risks what has eventuated in the subject case, where groups of like minded fundamentalists can easily band together to encourage one another, introduce foul traditions and operate without detection.

Similarly, it is how criminal gangs have become established in Australia which is continuing to happen, especially where immigration and security checks are not performed satisfactorily because floods of claimed refugees have overwhelmed the resources available.

The federal government's multicultural idealism and aim of a 'Big Australia, Now!' are concerning.

Banjo well what can I say?
Not a clew how we got so far from the theme but leave it at that.

Belly,

What you mean to say is that you are going to stick your head in the sand to avoid noticing the policies of the federal Labor government that contribute to the problem and could lead to the rapid growth of female cutting in Australia as in Europe.

The bleeding heart Left 'Progressives' who advise government are not so keen to ever be held accountable for their unintended consequences, are they?

Banjo has a point where better screening of migrants and so-called refugees are concerned.

Of course we are importing problems and no, it will not be just a first generation thing. Because some migrant groups are known to become even more fundamentalist in their adopted country that even their country of origin. That is how you get 'home grown' fundamentalist extremists, isn't it?

OTB, give you this for free, opinions are free.
We can all have them.
Some show the wise part of a poster, if they agree with us.
Some show an inability to see other than their owners views.
MANY HERE tell me I am blind/being conned/unable to see faults in my side of politics.
Standing on a hill of evidence found in my post history.
Bewildered by those comments, from the truly *intellectuality blind*
I seek proof they have views other than those of love stricken sheep have for their ram, without finding any.
OTB are you certain you, not I are not blind to reality and truth.
Do you come to threads with an open mind, tell the truth now.
In throwing stones/insults we should observe it is often a glass house we throw from.

It is my view we should have been given air to talk about this subject.
But too that with open minds we can learn a great deal from what we saw posted here.
We saw some agreement that the practice was bad/ileagle here/ maybe just a little that went close to saying it was not very important, to some.
We got to talk about the male op, and it seemed to enter the conversation to take the heat away from a primitive operation some times carnied out by , well lessor educated people.
Cattle came in to the thread , only one poster knows why.
But let us not be too hasty.
Hidden here, in plain sight, is evidence of why things do not get done!
We get the boots in to politicians and just about every one, do we observe our selves closely enough?
To achieve some thing we need to come together.
Put our thoughts and wishes in a communal heap.
And each take part of what they wish/want out, excepting they only get a part of their wish.
That is as near as man in our lifetime, can get to Democracy.
And in wanting every thing our way or not at all.
We share in nothing no out comes and no change.
We can however, if we wish, read thousands of story's of young girls who died under the knife due to this practice.
Even in books written by fellow Muslims calling for an end to the primitive thing.
Or we can go and join the save the Whales campaign.

Belly,
I await the outcome of the court in relation to the FGM cases in NSW.

Hopefully convictions and serious penalties will change the attitudes of state governments about prosecutions. To me it is appalling that 'cultural considerations' have stopped prosecutions for 20 years. In truth, governments have been courting the ethnic vote and not wishing to get on the wrong side of some groups. All the while little girls suffer and endure lifelong problems.

So I look forward to the beginnings of change.

Some reservations though. I cannot find the court listings for these cases even though the SMH stated it was to be on the 8th August.

I have the names of the nurse and the Sheik, but the names of the parents and others have been suppressed and the name of the solicitor has not been available as yet.

I do hope the SMH got their info right.

Banjo I often speak of the 80% of Australians who think much the same.
Every word in your post I too share.
Even the clear one that governments both sides, are inflicting views on us those 8 in 10,who are un impressed with this rather nasty insistence if we do not like what they are doing we are racists.
OH our voice will be over ridden by the 20 per centers, those who love and pity but are unable to see the reality, we have become the victims in our country to others culture.
I have no Daughters, but 20 nieces.
The thought, and it is a possibility, NO IT IS! via a wedding that one of them would be put through this?
Is shattering.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/newshome/18379363/dead-diggers-like-hitler-soldiers-letter/
This link I will be told, does not belong here.
Its seems the only current thread it fits.
Some one may start another very long thread about it.
But I think we must look at it, here seems the place.
Men and women , on both sides of the debate, should see this idiot for what he is.
A fool and tormentor of those suffering great loss.
Too by his dress a man promoting separatism, in my country.
Maybe it is just me, but why is this grubby person in that my country?
Yes he is not representative of all, even most Muslims.
But if some see my post?
A full on attack on not him but me, for daring to speak the truth.
That should warn us all, our great country has difficulty's ahead, not just those who like this man should not be here, but at the hands too, of those unable to feel the pain his crime bought to Grieving Familys.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/lawyer-charged-over-female-circumcisions/story-e6frg6nf-1226693472527
Happy this link proves me wrong Banjo.
Happy too the number charged is is riseing.
But sadly given our justice systems well known lack of a back bone not sure we will see justice done.