Given all the current debate, I thought it was time to look at the government Work Choices website in the hope it would shed a bit of light on how ordinary employees are affected by the system.

My presumption was that there would be lots of easy to understand information to help win over the doubters. I was surprised to discover that the lawyers seem to have won the day over the politicians. There are 36 fact sheets which are meant to explain how it all works plus some case studies that include your ABC.

What do you find there? It seems that your 'Greenfields Agreement' may face a 'Reasonable Person's Test'. The worker may face 'individual performance measures'.
It helps if you're in a constitutional corporation or an unincorporated business in Victoria because then you won't have to come to grips with NAPSA's or PSA's and The Standard'.

It is perfectly clear that you may be have a right to Preserved Notional Entitlements and Protected Notional Conditions.

I came away confident that John Howard's Aussie battlers would be more than satisfied with this explanation of their rights and responsibilities at work. Not!

On reflection the Work Choices website might fail the plain English test but it probably passes the political one. Keep them in the AWA dark! Log on and see what it's like.

Can this legal speak be deliberate? Is it incompetence or cunning? As an ALP member and active trade unionist for 35 years I have come to expect both from our wily opponents.

Kevin Rennie
Broome

You will not understand workchoices from a government web site.
If you just explore the sites the word workchoices gives you it may start to sink in just what workchoices is.
Site after site offers advice on how to use it to make savings on wages and conditions.
The worse will tell you how to pressure your workers in to AWAs that see agreements signed that give as little as no increases for the 5 year term of the agreement.
That take away, its true! public holidays, weekend over time, shift allowances, the list is truly endless.
Hidden from your eyes and mine by this federal government is the dreadful truth of the impact of workchoices.
After no less than 5 training days, 20 new documents, and and endless update system I can tell you an easy way to understand workchoices.
It is the most unfair effort any government put in place aimed at lower costs so Australia can do what it never can, compete with cheap Asian labour.
It hides behind the China India driven resources boomb and claims employment driven by that but it has no right to the claim.
After that boomb workchoices left unchecked will bring mass suffering to those Australians unable to fend for themselves.
Workchoices is an act of spite from a leader who never had to work to eat, who has no understanding , even the worst union member is a human being, most are just your neigbors.
And most victims are not even unionists just workers

Over night actions from John Howard will show you much about workchoices.
Can this man? this man history may well unmask as no nice bloke think now that a last minute minute give back is the answer?
Just 2 months ago the tool of a man said he would never back down.
Just a week ago he said Labor would undo the economic benefits of workchoices.
Today this leader who is aging mentally faster than most advises us new AWAs will have protections old one do not.
That 2 people each on a 5 YEAR AWA working side by side will be paid as if they are working in different country's!
And that will be ok?
Howard Sir go now!
Leave with some dignity!
2 Australian workers one may take sick leave one not?
Workplace harmony?
Fair go?
Grubby John ask the wife its grubby!

Belly
Part of the Aussie fair go system is to be fair to everybody.
I have already posted somewhere else The Prime minister has already "said" there may be some things that will need another look at.
It would have to be hard belly to introduce something that big and not have to go back and Re visit SOME points.

Your problem like so many is you seem to have a mentality of looking at people who own business and supply jobs as the enermy.

You say why should two workers be treated different?
I will tell you why Belly- Because if one bloke is doing his job he will be valued BUT if his work mate is a lazy theiving bludger I should be able to say- There is the gate.
I dont want some union guy walking over to me saying- You cant sack him

If he steals from me for example I should NOT be forced to keep him on

Bosses mostly treat good workers like pure gold because they are hard to get.


Also if you "really look " you will see "everybody" can be made to pay towards union fees regarless if they are in a union or not!
It seems pretty clear to me thats the intention.

If that's a real question, I have to answer: not much at all. I'm retired and am not affected by Work choices, AWA's and the rest of the nonsense which is gradually whittling away Australian manufacturing and Australian jobs.

Some people say that they are better off; others say they are worse off (although I have heard this latter only from Greg Combet, not from real workers who will not have the chance to switch jobs - from the union to Canberra - with the ease Combet will).

So who really knows. Only the people affected, and they will be able to vote against Work Choices this year if they choose to do so.

There is really not much point in continuing a discussion. Every four years we have the chance to change things, and that's all we get.

I expect some propaganda from the government to appear on the Work Choices website following their latest backdown. It was interesting to see smiling Joe Hockey recently use the desperate excuse of all struggling governments: It's not the message, we just need to communicate it better.
Anyway,'Fair and Reasonable Test' is to be added to the 'Reasonable Person's Test'. These are testing times! Even the Mining bosses are having a bet each way. Wouldn't want to shoot any potential goose which helps deliver the golden mining boom.
If our only choice is at the next elections, let's hope it is a more informed one about Industrial Relations than last time. Where exactly do the minor parties stand on this debate just in case we have a hung Senate?

The Mining Bosses and small business owners of Australia have said they want the changes.
They are rather cross with Howard.
John Howard has already made it clear that a certain type of person may need extra protection which he is prepaired to give.
I am just wondering what more you want?
I mean do you really want to be forced to pay union fees whether your a member or not?
Likewise do you want your kids to be forced to pay these fees.
If you stop to think about it I know which offer is the more fair to all.
Remember all this from somebody would protests against Howards lack of action towards Animal Welfare.
I am just trying to point out to others whats hidden with the other team to be fair.
Either way it makes no difference to me.
I just dont want to see people who are already struggling to pay off a house being shocked when they are slugged with an extra cost to go into building up the union bosses kitty.
Its wide open for that. Its all there for you to read.
Goodnight all.

PALE Please understand I am not able to discuss any issue with you without my view you are unaware of the true nature of issues coming out.
You claim I think bosses are evil, or wrong in any dispute? on what evidence?
In what post of mine did you find that view?
Your total failure to understand workchoices is on display in every post you mention it.
You fail to understand all who work, far more than union members are victims of a system that implies Australians are not equal, not able to in some cases even hope for a better life because of workchoices.
Just one point , unless you are truly aware you would not know unions are different.
I have never stood over a boss, I have at times expressed the view just maybe some had parents who had not troubled themselves with a wedding.
But I am proud to tell you my little lost sheep ,with the deepest respect to you, I am more than welcome in most bosses offices and the workers lunch rooms.
Find a way to understand workchoices.
Find a way to see why this government is so low in the polls.
But find a way to care for John Howard's victims as much as you care for animals.
workchoices has been over cooked Howard said he would not change it Australia said it would be changed.
Kevin Rudd will change it, conservative Australia will wonder why they could not see it before the train wreck.
John Howard may well be just telling us another lie, after all it has become his stock in trade to lie.

Does PALE have the same mentality that existed amongst coal bosses in the early 1920s and 1930s?

When it became illegal for women and children to work in New South Wales underground coal mines in about 1910 - 1920 they were replaced by pit ponys. pony = horse Look at photos of Illawarra coal mines about 1905 to see all the workers - women and boys included.

By the 1920s the pit ponys worked underground for one week in 3. Admittedly they were hoisted down for their week of work and stayed there until they were hoisted up. The other 2 weeks they stood in the paddock soaking up the sunshine and eating grass. Men had 2 weeks holiday a year.

I have just posted the figures about AWAs gleaned from the Sydney Morning Herald in Under Labor, 'no ticket, no start' is back at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5806

In summary there are
306,400 AWAs signed
22,000 mining industry AWAs
1.12 million contractors, eg plumbers, electricians, teachers, nurses, consultant engineers, IT
1.22 million owner managers of unincorporated businesses
673,000 owner managers of incorporated businesses
1.79 union members
10 million in workforce

Pales Mentality is not at question here.
Whats at question - and I will give you just ONE example under labour is why ONLY abattoir workers are not allowed into WA.

'your U.S.

To stop private enterprise and progress is not going to help Australian Farmers.
Its not going to help with employment- especially in the regional areas and it convicts many more animals to suffer at the hands of the cruel live export trade.

To be perfectly honest with you - If you cant see that it is unfair to target one particular group of workers but allow others to bring in staff to make up for the shortage of skilled labour then you cant be paying with a full stack of cards.
It seems the lights are on but nobody is home.

I have employed staff all my life.
The good ones were well looked after.
I wont be told I have to keep a lazy their theif on by anybody.
My friend had a suspected case of a child abuser. He complained to some union that he was being picked on.
He went on to maul children
She complained to a current affair who ran a story on this unfair dismissal thing years ago.
Point is had she ben allowed to act it would not have happend.
What type of person needs somebody to hold their hand while seeking employment? What Boss needs an outsider sticker their nose in?
The only people who want these laws are the ones that like the free sicky and the free this and free that.
Get over it the country cant afford a nation of bludgers.

In 1912 In Brisbane a mob of butchers took to the streets.
They all took days off because they were asked not to wear their badges with their union numbers on them by the bosses.
No idea why- or better still, why that would be important in the first place. Maybe someone just told them it was and let the mob mentality do the rest.
There was twenty five thousand. They were joined by another 50 thousand in St Georges Square. That would make 75 thousand people not at work that day. Hardley good for the State or small business.
Oh and of COURSE they all expected to be paid on top of it.

On the 25 2 1912[ They called it black friday] A group of women protesting over the same thing.
A 73 year old woman saw the The Police Commissioner and took out her hat pin and stuck it hard into his horse.

The Police Commissioner`s name at that time was Patrick Caul.
He walked with a limp for the rest of his life. The horse was rumoured destroyed.
I might add their animal welfares about the same. In the 1930s our Brisbane ports took our fleece to the world. Not now of course.

You lot and complained and put many good people out of business.
Funny how some things never change.
There were people way back then that would happily take over their jobs.
People who just wanted work. A fair days work for a fair days pay.

Why do you think the new comers have thrived in Australia.

Look at people from Italy. They came and grow their tomatoes while we all laughed.
They worked hard as a family and brought into many corner stores or market gardens.
Didnt ask for hand outs and didnt complain.
Didnt strike. Said they felt lucky to be in Australia.
Yeh There are work choises in Australia> choose the work- Or want free holidays sickies and much more and more and more and more and - put a lot od small business out of business.

Thanks For The memories.!

Pale is of little worth ,much like this federal government you trade in lies and half truths.
Workchoices you implie is about bludgers who will not work but want pay.
You say it is about unions who stand over bosses to get the jobs of thieves back.
If this trip away from reality is not enough to blacken you nothing will be.
I note that threads you start about pale are lurching further from pure truth each month, and are not finding posters in great numbers.
So if you intend to invade threads with such dreadful impacts on workers who have never been in a union, simple low income people who could never afford to be in a union.
Be honest about it workchoices is about all who work, it is about not being able to take the kids to weekend sports, it is about an Aussie fair go and a culture under insulting attack.
John Howard's late entry into the fair go stakes is against every thing he has ever said about workchoices.
He shames himself by denying his claims it was always fair.
And I ask is he telling the truth this time?
His scheme at best is peeing on a bush fire.
Good unions ,bad unions it surely is a separate issue?
Union power? bosses unions or workers ones? one is bound in the corner one free to run wild.
WHY?
Only pale could claim post workchoices unions have any real power or the bosses ones do not.

I will leave good union official/bad union official for another thread both exist and always have.
But I am a bush bred Aussie and never left a job that did not see the boss ask me to stay in my life.
Even as a whistle blower in a state government department, one of those I was aiming at asked me to stay.
So pale no bludgers here, one of your valued workers in fact.
Some farmers have always treated employees like property.
Some think they own workers and even inform them how to behave on weekends it town.
Not all but , never forget workchoices is just another chain in such hands.
In my small country village ,as I watch the dawn service on TV and remembered Anzac day.
Our local timber mill workers left home at the same time as any day 4 am to work.
What chance of the day of boss?
NONE mate.
Saturday is out of the question then, pale how much damage will your red necks do before its enough?

Belly
Saw mills dont run themselves. You should know that. Nor do farms.
Now tell me -did these blokes ask for Anzac day off to go to the service? At the bosses expense?
Or did they ask him a few weeks before if they could attend the Service - without pay for a few hours then come back into the Mill?
I put it to you it does not require the 'whole day" off to show your respect to our fallen.
Personally I dont know anybody who runs a saw mill[ in particular in a small country town that would not feel deeply for our Anzacs.
I think your Saw Mill boss was possibly on to them that they expected HIM to Pay them for a "free day." All day!

AND Why should Your unions stop me from bring in WA abattoir workers to run my business?

You think thats! fair?
Its the only industry not allowed.
Now isnt THAT interesting.?
Do you have any idea that the farmers are being lied to?
Do you understand that the corps and middle men are making huge proffits with their trade deals?
Do you understand that Labour are supposed to stand up for these people?
Do you understand that despite zillions of offers to farmers federations MLA Austrade and others to bring in business people from Middle East To meet Farmers Direct - They WONT EVEN TELL THEM ABOUT THIS OFFER?

Dont you think the farmers ought to be given the chance to make up their own minds?
Dont you see that once you introduce a farmer to a rich ,middle east buyer of meat that farmer will NEVER look back

Why didnt labour disclose the AWB interests into live exports.
Why are the AMIEU so quiet?

I think anybody who calls somebody under four days notice and tells them they must work the next weekend should be fined!
Of course they must respect their workers.
Ask your Julia why I cant get the same Choices?
How come unions can STOP ME opening a business!
Choices huh!
Nor are we JH fans

The thread is about understanding workchoices yet you come running in throw insults and miss information at it.
Then asked to explain your posts you widen the subject to include pale and much more.
You ramble on about poor workers and appear to invent reasons we should continue to import foreign workers and muddy waters hide the truth.
Standing for election to Howard's team are you? you show real form!
In the headlong rush to insult workers who are mostly not unionists farmer ,some by far not all, often hide behind the fact wages on offer to workers are third world.
We hear of fruit rotting on the ground as pickers refuse to live in dreadful conditions and work for $7 an hour less than they would get holding a stop and go bat at home.
It is so easy for some to forget a farmer owns the farm, massive capital held ,while a workers, one of generations who made that wealth may own only a caravan.
Why can you think some live only to serve?
How can you not think as much of these workers as you do sheep?
How can you talk of treating good workers well but not understand some never treat any worker well?
Stop insulting unions as a defense to the workchoices you do not and never will understand.
They after all are in no way different than the farmers federation.
Workchoices remains the evil thing it was meant to be, if you have any understanding of it you will know this verbose lie telling leader we have took the very fair go thing out of workchoices he now proudly returns to it.
He can not be believed or trusted and conservative Australia must debate his future now.
Australia must have a strong opposition.
The ALP will supply the strong government.

Belly
You raised the issue of the Saw mill workers wanting to go to Anzac day. I just gave you the counter argument.
However it was a good example of why we terrible bosses do not like unions.
They had LOTS to do with stuffing the abattoir business in Australia up in the first place. Not all but lots.
Yes the AMIEU complain now. Of course they do.
Thats because the 'other greedy lot' ended up saying- Stuff the bloody uions - Well take the bastards alive.[quote]
Mind you if people feel they need them or want them they should have that choice- I agree.

No I am not on John Howards side either.

Now "you raised" the Farmers Federation GOOD.
Let me tell you about them .
They 'refuse' to pass on valable information to Farmers.

Its the farmers we support one hundred percent belly.

We have offered to introduce fruit farmers meat farmers to people overseas wishing o meet them DIRECT!

Staff to pick fruit- and run abattoirs with vaule adding, No problem.
Please dont say we are taking Aussie jobs either because we dont have people in regional areas to take them.

Why? because over the years the regional areas have come to a stand still.

The farmers kids leave for the city to find jobs and a life.

Why? because both sides of politics Libera;l and Labour have allowed our natual rescourse to be shipped off in their most vaulable form- ie - bi- products made from the insides of animals - tans hides million more. Not to mention the jobs in regional areas for IT mechanics packaging companies electrical.

Its stuffed the nation!

You go on about being fair but I note not a word about us being unfairly treated by blocking us opening abattoirs in WA?

Thats Ok Is it? What Choice do WE have?

Just because you are a farmer who is asset rich and cash poor is not a good argument for denying workers the right to enter in collective bargaining for decent wages and conditions.

Just because the Farmers Federation collects money from every farmer in WA and lobbys government on behalf of Timbercorp, Waterwheel, Monsanto and Cubby Downs who pay the big subscriptions does not mean that small farmers should take it out on other people.

When you are unable to negotiate a good farm gate price for your product when you negotiate directly with Coles or Woolworths you are in exactly the same position as the 16 year old check out chick trying to get an after school job at Coles or Woolworths.

If the retail workers get poor pay they will eat sausages not steak, use powdered milk not fresh milk, buy canned / frozen vegetables from South Africa not Australia because the Australian produce is more expensive.

PALE's arguments about the live sheep trade are confusing, poorly expressed and probably just plain wrong.

The WA Farmers Federation introduced live sheep exports in 1978 to break the power of the meat workers union. Livestock die in transit to port, further beasts die when they are acclimatised to pellet feed prior to embarkation and further beasts die in transit on board ship. The trade is profitable even if 20% to 30% beasts that leave the farm die in transit. If I was a farmer involved in live sheep transport I would be wondering if I could get a better price ex-farm gate for animals slaughtered in Australia.

The price paid for most farm produce is FOB, Freight on Board.

Getting back to top ender's original question about how to find out information about AWAs. I have signed an AWA in Victoria before the Workchoices legislation came in and I think the same mechanism applied.

My biggest concern was that I signed an abbreviated contract that mentions
- 38 hours work a week
- entitlement for sick leave, holiday leave for full time employees
- rate of pay
- superannuation payments are deducted

I was employed as a casual and the contract did mention conditions that concern casuals like
- minimum call out times

At 11:30 one day I was asked to go to work at 2:30, I drove across to the workplace and the supervisor said that I wasn't needed that day. What about cost of transport to work?

I then discovered the employer hadn't lodged a complete copy of the contract with any government authority or third party.

So although I quoted ABS figures of 400,000 AWAs lodged in the first 12 months of operation, it isn't mandatory to lodge AWAs with anyone.

Workchoices operates in an environment of secrecy where the employer can offer what ever conditions he can get away with. If no one talks or discusses pay then the employer can pay differential rates.

Many other work is now done on a contract basis. Many workers in weak bargaining positions are on "take-it-or-leave-it" contracts. These workers can have 3 or 4 years of university training behind them.
Or they are skilled tradesmen not working on large inner city multistorey developments
In fact 40% of staff in Victorian schools are on contract and perhaps 60% of nurses are employed casually.
Most call centre operators in the finance industry are casuals.

Organisations who rely on casuals for their labour force have to design the job to be as simple as possible and are not able to offer their students, patients, clients the specialised service that their fees may lead them to believe they are entitled to. Customers are going to feel increasingly disgruntled.

Billie Said

The WA Farmers Federation introduced live sheep exports in 1978 to break the power of the meat workers union.

PALE Replies.
Yes Billie. Thats Correct- Actually "to quote" `They Said Stuff the unions we will take the bastards Alive!` [unquote]

Billie Said
Livestock die in transit to port, further beasts die when they are acclimatised to pellet feed prior to embarkation and further beasts die in transit on board ship. The trade is profitable even if 20% to 30% beasts that leave the farm die in transit.

Pale Replies
A picture is worth a thousand words >
http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/liveexport_evidence.asp

Shame on anybody who supports that.

Billie Said>
PALE's arguments about the live sheep trade are confusing, poorly expressed and probably just plain wrong.
PALE Said. Well Billie See if you can follow these thousands of people then. I dont see any of them , ' poorly expressed. do You?>

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

Billie Said>

If I was a farmer involved in live sheep transport I would be wondering if I could get a better price ex-farm gate for animals slaughtered in Australia.

Pale Replies> Yes Billie Thats about THE most sensible thing you have said. However its not that easy for the farmers to do that.
That is why We have formed a MOU with AFIC and we have requested Farmers federations inform Farmers that buyers overseas wish to meet farmers `direct` in order to give them better prises and more options.
See
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
http://www.freerangefarmers.com/freerange/

3 Farmers were betrayed by Nationals. Nationals” relied” on the Farmers -`not asking the `pertinent questions`
Overseas take Animals Live to` Create Employment` and for `Value Adding` to improve THEIR ECONOMY.

Why Don’t they change it?

Scared of loosing votes .Labour States also. Donations and votes rule three political parties.

` Its termed -feeding the chooks. `

. You read propaganda put out by people with vetted interests.
They pulled the wool over farmer’s eyes.

Farmers Federation’s driven by the Nationals are Traitors to Farmers.

Farmers reps wont help us to introduce overseas buyers direct to farmers.


Ask yourself why!?

PALE says "Farmers reps wont help us to introduce overseas buyers direct to farmers.
Ask yourself why!?"

99% of members of National Farmers Federation are family farms that pay annual fees of under $20. The NFF is paid for by a few large agribusiness. PALE do you know how much your NFF subscription is and when you pay it?

The small farmers don't pay the lobbyists like Brian Burke and Julian Grill. Agribusiness like Manildra, Timbercorp, Waterwheel lobby government for concessions for their business. I guess the live sheep exporters paid the politicians more than Cargill.

Billie.
Thanks for your reply.
I already Know Why Billie. My point is they stopped us opening abattoirs in WA and lets face it what an email sent out to members going to cost them Huh?
Do you have any idea how hard it is being a farmer. Try get an exporters licence or accreditations alone.
They dont have a clue about how to go about it Billie and if they ask they soon back off.
Nor do they have clue how to tapp into overseas contacts because they a far too busy just trying to survive.
We charge `nothing` for grass roots introductions and assitance to these people who wish to buy meat direct through Australian farmers.
Considering this then gives the Australian farmer a sure supply of demand and a far better deal even you must wonder whats the harm in telling the farmers about this proposal- can you?

I note you declined to comment on if you felt if fair that we are the ONLY Industry in this country blocked from bring in skilled labour.

I have read some of your posts and you dont seem stupid to me despite the fact we dont always agree.
Surley its only fair I put my offer to farmers just like everybody else.
Common sense must tell you that there is `no reason` we cant slaughter here and pick up Value Adding.[ Small Goods- bi products]

Do you really think Muslims require animals alive for some ritual?
Or that there is no power over there?
Its a Myth and its almost laughable.

They DONT WANT THE FARMERS TO MEET THE PEOPLE THEY ARE DOING BUSINESS WITH BILLIE.
ought to be pretty clear to you

Did you know the AWB are big Animal Exporters along with Packers Murdocks etc.
Did you hear one word from labour about that at the AWB enquiry?
This was despite the fact live exports were all over 60 minutes just 4 days before.
The Labour missed the best chance they ever had to get the Australian public onside Billie.
Now Again
Please ask yourself WHY?

And Speaking of Work choices Billie._ I choose to help the WA farmers and the Animals buy building abattoirs to slaughter in Australia. I want to produce small good as well as meat products in WA and Australia.
'Thats MY work choice'.
Any idea why I should be blocked from having a choice too?
That is of course if your work choices were set up to be fair to all.

Dishonest and for some evil, harsh words but that is what the Howard changes to workchoices are.
AWA,s almost always took things away from workers, including overtime and holidays, often they took ever thing away.
An the are for a 5 year term.
Often no wage rises for that 5 year term.
Howard had a test in place just like the one he now says is going to fix workchoices.
He took it away.
He and his Minister for industrial relations WILL NOT GIVE US information on what is in those AWA,s.
Now this very day if I took an AWA I ,if you believe Howard ,would be protected from loss of conditions.
What about those who are only one year or two into a 5 year AWA?
LEGALLY BINDING THEY COULD WORK ALONG SIDE ME, WATCH ME GO ON HOLIDAYS THEY CAN NOT TAKE.
OR GET PAID OVER TIME THEY DO NOT FOR DOING THE SAME JOB WORKING THE SAME HOURS.
That timber mill, pale you fail the fair go test, you fail the test of Aussie culture it was Anzac day.
Those workers each of them are nothing less than the private property of the mills owner.
Long years ago one brought the union in and all know the boss will close that mill over night if ever again asked to pay the going rates of pay.
That is firmly understood and that means the mill houses they live in go too.
Working Anzac day was about not breaking the tradition, 4 10 hour days and Friday off.
I see in your posts why you find nothing wrong with importing over seas workers sucking them dry then sending them home.

Pale why should the Labor Party promote your interests. As a farmer you financially support the NFF you don’t vote for the Labor Party. It’s not Julia Gillard’s problem that the political party you vote for does not represent you!

I don’t know why migrant meat workers are not permitted in WA but I can imagine its payback. The introduction of live sheep transports hurt many families and now there’s a Labor state government its pay time. Towns like Derby, Broome, Rockingham, Albany used to have big meat works and when the meat works closed the effects rippled through town.

Unless you tell me, I can’t guess why you are not able to open an abattoir. Is there land available, is there a work force available, is there transport from supplier, transport to consumer. PALE other people start up small goods manufacturing so ask them how they got started.

You can’t do any better than having a quiet chat to your cousin, while showing off your well conformed children.

Belly First
The old school true blue would not want a saw mill owner to pay them to take a day off for Anzac Day. As a matter of fact it would have insluted them. This new breed that call themselves country or whatever are a joke. The Saw mill owner probably would have nO problem in them taking a few hours off to attend a Anzac march. More than likely he might have been proud to join them. Its possible he may have said re wages after- Thats ok boys thats on me. What we bosses dont like it to be rail roaded by a bunch of pens pushers creating jobs for themselves and telling us we have to educate our young to expect something for nothing.
The country cant afford it any more than the small biz owner.

The overseas staff is to TRAIN Aussie slaughter men- In return Australian farmers have another outlet to run their stock through ensursing better prices. The kids in the bush have work. Australia then has a chain of small good supply instead of importing it.
I mean how clever is it that WE are `importing` small goods?
Any country knows that value adding in any Industry is what that country needs.
It keep employment high and that in return flows off through the comunity.
Belly You also seem to have totally over looked that I have already agreed with you that some changes need to be made on a couple of issues you have pointed out.
I thank You for that and acknowledge there is always two sides to a story.
It just so happens the Prime Minister of Australia also agrees that some times people may fall through the cracks.
He has stated they WILL fix the problems you raised.

I am just wondering what more you want?
Why cant YOU join a union without! forcing me?
Thats choice

Mate! pale! how can I take anything you ever post a serious?
You wade in with the thoughts of a mill owner you have not even met!?
And defame his workers who again you never knew!
I live here in this village and know each of them.
Not one of those workers is in a union.
Not one of them is not a true good worker.
Not one of them has not got family roots going back to the settle meant of this are, over 120 years ago.
Yet you defame them?
If I represented your employees as a union official, neither they nor you, unless you are as you appear here ,would ever see me act unfairly.
And no one would not be happy with my way of acting on behalf of my members.
I have an understanding of a workers rights and most fair minded employers can be talked into a Fair go.
I doubt you could be but maybe I am wrong.
I have the gravest doubts you understand issues including the one you appear to champion to help you export meat.
Your last post is so strange that it is more a cartoon than a view.

Workchoices has been created out of the incompetence of the labor states.

It was these states that handed over power in 2001 to create this.

Was it a thought that labors latham team could have one, one has to wonder why the labor states would hand over this power that wasnt approved by the people of the states to a liberal government.

Please explain labor.

So when it really comes to the truth Labor had its hands so far in to the loss of workers rights that they wish to say.

Facts are greater than your pity spin.

www.tapp.org.au

Billie said

Pale why should the Labor Party promote your interests?

PALE Replies
Because All Governments are there to support all Australian business and do what’s best for their Country.

I am sure this will come to as much shock to them Billie as you – because it’s their job.

What do you Think the Ministers for Trade are there for or the Ministers of business, Employment?

It certainly is Julia’s Job Billie. She is asking us to entrust her with running this country.

Also Billie its clear to me you have not bothered to read our web page. If you had you would know we are a NFP organization working to support RSPCA.

We are campaigning for this co joint venture to be adopted as` policy` It’s the same policy we have asked the Howard Government to introduce.


Bille Said
Unless you tell me, I can’t guess why you are not able to open an abattoir. Is there land available, is there a work force available, is there transport from supplier, transport to consumer. PALE other people start up small goods manufacturing so ask them how they got started.

PALE Replies>

I knew you had not read the page.
Here are ALL your questions answered – please look

http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Billie Said

You can’t do any better than having a quiet chat to your cousin, while showing off your well conformed children.

Pale replies.

Sorry Billie you have lost me. I don’t have kids. That’s something I was saying jn support of Julia with Bills rude remarks. I would very much like to see Bill gone. Not only because of what he said to poor Julia but because he `s always like that.
Spare a thought for the fact we have had to TRY to deal with this man while he sits the Animal Welfare advisory board.

Billie you asked why they are stopping us bringing in people to train Halal Slaughter in WA.

To protect the live Animal Exports
I would have thought that much might would have been obvious.
Thanks for your comments
Have a good evening.

Nice Ducky, do you want me to critic the website layout or the words?

A final word:

Since last week's backdown/flip-flop/cunning response to public opinion, we have not only had taxpayer funded advertisements to promote Howard's flagging fortunes, we now have a change to the Work Choice website. That is the place to read his Media Release. I suppose Costello's Budget speech will appear on the ATO website to get equal time in that other contest.

Last week, I wrote to Steve Knott - Chief Executive Australian Mines and Metals Association (AMMA)about his comments on ABC 7.30 report and have since provided him with quotations of the Framers of the constitution, such as about "civil rights", "Common law rights", etc.
Today, I received a 26 page response setting out why AMMA is opposing the ALP intentions. Sure the document was dated 22 March 2007 but while it argued about freedom of association, a State "common law right", it failed further to rely upon State "civil rights" etc.
to me it appeared to be bashing the ALP rather then being a well balanced document setting out what the relevant State provisions were it had been opposing, etc.

I am due to publish now;
INSPECTOR-RIKATI® on IR WorkChoices legislation
A book about the validity of the High Courts 14-11-2006 decision
ISBN 978-0-9751760-6-1 (Book-CD), ISBN 978-0-9751760-7-8 (Book-B&W), ISBN 978-0-9751760-8-5 (Book-Colour)

IN IT I INCLUDE THE AMMA DOCUMENT ALSO AS WELL AS WHY THE SO CALLED WORKCHOICES LEGISLATION IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND HOW I VIEW THE JUDGES SWINDLED WORKERS OUT OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

This book is neither against employees and/or employers but rather against the unconstitutional conduct having gone on for far too long by all major political parties.

Billie
Yeh. You can do both if you wish. That would be great. RSPCA QLD only have one computer teck to look after two hundred and twenty computers.
The site ended up being built by a eighteen year old farmers Son.

Our CEO of Halal at AFIC is very clever with building web pages and soon will finally get around to fixing it up and then it will go up on here as well.
http://www.afic.com.au/

Mind you I dont want it to loose the grass roots touch either.

Most people overseas like the clancy of the overflow approach.

We must always remember this is for Australian Grass Roots Farmers.

As A foot Note I will tell you its real important we can bring in staff to train people in Halal.

As the Abattoirs have just about closed down we have of course not kept up any training.

Thats as you know not restricted to abattoirs alone.
Its across the broad.
What IS different and of course what we are complaing about Billie is that abattoirs have been singled out and told they cant bring in skilled staff.

But any other industry have the green light.

Blind Freddy can see that is to protect the cruel live export trade.

Its bloody unfair.

By doing that they also stop us from providing jobs again for those families you mentioned earlier suffering.

So yeh we are no corp computer types here Billie. We are just trying to help Aussie Farmers by offering them the oportunity to meet people wanting to buy from them direct.

In Australia that ought to be allowed.

Everybody should be given the same oportunity.

We are being given No choices just pushed into more and more live exports.

I hope you understand a little better now.

I know your offer was tongue in cheek. Thats ok Billie. Its almost 3 am so I will bid you goodnight.

pale after the disjointed post returns to the thread with no answers.
Tapp , please give some facts to back up your very wrong view ALP state governments gave the federal government a way to bring about workchoices.
It is not much to ask Tapp, evidence for your rant.
I soon this morning leave for Newcastle and a long day, meeting hurt workers from Scone to the Hawksbury river.
Just another day, each will need help some are casual workers only getting a few days a month work.
Some are once high paid construction workers now casual doing the same job as full time workers along side of them doing the same work exactly, for far less money
None are evil, none are warlike unionists, and very few are not Australian residents.
Yet some here in this thread have deep contempt for them!
Some see opposition to workchoices as evil union/Labor propaganda.
Silly old men entrenched in a past them vs us ,bush vs the city see things that do not exist.
I see pain that workchoices is.
I see wifes working last minute shifts that take away the weekend, that take away time with the kids.
And that make partners see one another as they pass on the way to work.
Some see workchoices as the way to make Australia rich, some poor but say that is ok.
Some see no problems in the lost culture.
Some have more pride in their bank balance than an Aussie fair go?
Each sad story I hear today pale will remind me of you, that in my very sole I think you will defend the evilness of workchoices with uninformed ram belling.
And keep truth at bey! to keep your Biases intact
But no regard for the fact all who work are not wrong in wanting a better life and fairness.
Pale in my mind I picture you very much like Bill Heffernan it is your words and actions here that form that view.

Reply to Belly

It was you who raised the issue of the Mill workers. We just followed your lead and put forth the counter argument. As you popped the Mill workers up as sacrificial lambs its you who ought to think about apologies.
We observed your attitude towards the Mill owner and pointed out that he should not be forced to pay staff for taking the whole day off under the pretence they would be attending Anzac marches “all day.” I also have some idea what its like to run a Saw mill in the country. We note you didn’t seem to have any problem with putting the Saw mill owner on the spot and nobody in his corner. You can`t have your foot in both camps, although I suspect by nature this is possible something that you do.

If you can not follow the posts regarding our co joint proposals with ME partners it’s not my fault. That possibly explains the fact that you seem unable to comprehend the counter arguments for these laws Labour would like to bring in if elected.

Nobody else we speak with has trouble and we normally receive over sixty enquires per day from people who often don’t know English as their first language.


As for being my union boss, we can assure you that’s not going to happen in this life time- You are a perfect example of why hard working small business owners want nothing to do with it.
I do not see any advantage in wasting our valuable time trying to exchange comments and opinions with you.
Dont don’t think you are playing with a full deck.
Your personal attacks are unexceptable. Not just to ourselves but many others.
As for Work Choices- It should be just that.
You choose to join a union or you dont.

I ,like us all do not visit posts after they are locked away in this dark room.
But pale must be answered,
In what post or thought did I say I would be your union boss?
A union official is no mans boss.
We all should re read the whole thread, often in fact read the threads we post in and understand the issue.
You constantly insult workers and confer sainthood on bosses in your posts.
You side step issues and constantly refuse to address the world as it is.
I am greatly honored that the very small business men and women you try to make war on my behalf with are in numbers you would not believe ASKING ME AND MY UNION TO VISIT!
And that is the simple truth some are as anti workchoices as I am and want to put agreements in place.
The unionism you fear largely died in the mid 1950,s
The path for middle of the road unions is far different.
Radicalism is as likely now to come from business unions workchoices is such a radical action.
I need to tell you I have no respect for you ,your views are unproven and unbalanced.
The manufacturing of opinions for me and people you have never known is no debating tool.

While in management I had to hire and fire people. Seldom did I need to sack a person because in general they were darn good workers. Not because I demanded from them but because I earned that right that they would work and do a good job. Simply by showing to them that I cared for their wellbeing and rights. I did not wait for some union official to come down to make complaints about some safety issue, rather I was right on it.
Even more then 30 years after having a particular management people still thank me for the time I was their boss. They do not do so if they had a gripe with me but because they knew that we were a team!
If you respect the workers their rights they in turn will normally respect you also.
WorkChoices however is not of bringing about a better relationship to better production but to basically turn workers into slave. To disregard their rights to work in safe conditions as employers will now know that workers cannot strike, at least the government pretends to be so.
I never saw the right to strike by workers as any problem because to me it was my job to make sure they had no cause to strike!
For the record, WorkChoices would be unconstitutional if it allowed an employer to deny a worker time of on a religious day (his religion) because Section 116 of the Constitution prohibits this. States however can prohibit this. And there is a lot more to it. Then again, I urge people to do without AWA’s and to stick to a “civil rights” contract. After all, if either isn’t prepared for this then why contract at all?
If you have mutual respect WorkChoices would not be appropriate either.

People are born to be destined to work, one way or another. They may work as an employer but still have to work. And, they would not like AWA’s put on themselves if that was possible!