Dear Shorbe..thanx so much for that Correction on Charles Martel.. appreciated.
You have a good point also in the mention of celebrating various scientific luminaries, but while they have made superb contributions to science etc, they have not so much altered history in the same way as Martel and Sobieski in my view. Still, I'm sympathetic to the remembrance of such, perhaps on a lower key than Tours and Vienna though. It could be a mention on a calender or something, whereas Tours and Vienna could be somehow given a higher profile.

You clearly saw my point though, and more importantly, you recognized the 'pivotal' nature of those 2 battles for the West and our History.

O Sung Wu.. Anzac day has morphed into a clinging to something for a sense of identity. We have such a short history and so little to look for within our own shores by which to define ourselves, so Galippoli, while a defeat, was also more than that.
Yes, we were the unwitting victims of bad planning and military mistakes, but something of the Aussie character is now indelibly imprinted on our history.

We were invading the Ottoman Empire.. quite true. And as I had to experience last saturday at some rather heavy sparring with a bloke 6'6" and about 120kg We have to take as well as give (I think I did more taking than giving though :) The Ottomans invaded, took territory, and they thus qualify to have it taken back, and their own taken from them. The fact that we invaded was quite legitimate in the bigger scheme of things.

In conclusion, I rejoice that though this thread, some awareness has been raised concerning our historical position.

Boaz,

I think you have a misunderstanding of what Anzac is about. It's about all the people who sacrificed and served in time of war, not about a particular battle. For a variety of reasons we choose to celebrate it on April 25th but it was never meant to be just about the war against the Turks or Moslems or any particular enemy. It's not even a celebration of a victory, we lost the battle of Gallipolli. It's not the specific battle that is celebrated but the symbolism of a willingness to sacrifice for your fellow countrymen. Gallipolli was a defeat and in order to remind us of the ultimate futility of war we celebrate on a day which represents a futile battle. I'm sorry but your complete lack of understanding of what these days are about surprises me.

"You have a good point also in the mention of celebrating various scientific luminaries, but while they have made superb contributions to science etc, they have not so much altered history in the same way as Martel and Sobieski in my view."

BOAZ: I disagree. To take but one example of an inventor, let's look at Gutenberg. He is equally as important in the position of the West as Martel or Sobieski. Likewise, I could very easily argue that without a whole bunch of scientists who provided the technology in other fields (eg. Galileo), there would have been no European exploration. Without European exploration, Europe would have remained a backwater, and might have even been subservient to another culture.

Peppy: How was Gallipoli, or indeed the entire First World War, relevant or necessary to Australians, except as gunfodder for the British? We were had. We can try to dress it up as something else, but we were had. It seems like that's been a recurring theme in our military history -- performed admirably as someone else's gunfodder. We, as a nation, seem to take the approach of Elliot Goblet who says something like, "I like to put my eye in front of doorknobs. Sure, it hurts, but think of the experience I get".

Demos
the reason the Kiwis arent afraid or see the need to arm is because they know Australia will always come to their rescue. They rely on our protective umbrella or is that take advantage of our protective umbrella because we have to pay for expensive weapons and they don't

" Peppy: How was Gallipoli, or indeed the entire First World War, relevant or necessary to Australians, except as gunfodder for the British? We were had. We can try to dress it up as something else, but we were had. It seems like that's been a recurring theme in our military history -- performed admirably as someone else's gunfodder. We, as a nation, seem to take the approach of Elliot Goblet who says something like, "I like to put my eye in front of doorknobs. Sure, it hurts, but think of the experience I get". "

Shorbe,

What on earth are you on about? Did you even read my post before you made that comment?

Where in my post did I try to justify World War 1? I not only said the battle was futile, I said war was futile. If you don't know what the word futile means, look it up in the dictionary. I also said Anzac is not about any particular battle or war or enemy. So how you say I was trying to justify WWI is beyond me. I think you need some glasses.

Peppy: I realise you wrote that. However, I was referring to your comment of: "symbolism of a willingness to sacrifice for your fellow countrymen". Maybe you were being sarcastic or glib about that. My point is that people always shake their heads and mutter something about the futility of war, yet they then go on to celebrate it through these sorts of commemorations. If we really believed in the futility of war then we wouldn't buy into this whole thing at all.