Yes, indeed it is. Lets analyse.

1/ It commemorates:
a) Australian Bravery and self sacrifice
b) On the soil of a country we invaded.

2/ It offends some groups. How would Turks feel about us commemorating our invasion of their country? Hmmm..probably about the same as we would feel about the Japanese celebrating the Burma railroad project as a "Great engineering feat against incredible odds"

3/ It also must offend Japanese, German and Italian people.

OK.. you disagree ? then do you disagree with THIS.

LETS also commemorate

1/ 'POITIERS DAY' when Charlemaigne in 732 stopped the advancing Muslims at Tours as they slashed, burned, pillaged and raped their way from Spain to France. A battle which, if lost, would have changed the course of history forever.

2/ VIENNA day. Where count Jan Sobieski in 1683 saved Europe from the invading Muslim Ottoman hoardes.

If it is argued "Oh..this might be offensive to Muslims", then I counter 'CANCEL ANZAC DAY'!

It's about time we took the bull by the horns, realized our bigger historical heritage and put aside how celebrating or commemorating such definitive events are likely to 'offend' any descendants (spiritual or biological) of the other side.
ANZAC day began at Tours and was confirmed at Vienna.

You can come up with some drivel BD. It would appear that for the most part the Turks are not offended by Anzac Day. Even at the time of the fighting it was recognised that we had much in common. Australian veterans have also saluted the bravery of the defendng Turks - what we have is a mutual respect. Dont lose sight of the fact that they won, not us! This was reinforced to me watching an Insight (SBS) program this time last year on What Does Anzac Day Mean To You. A young 2nd generation Australian, of Turkish background got a good laugh out of pointing out that he is not sure whether he was on the winning or losing side!

Celebrating european victories against muslim armies is silly. If the relevant countries that won the battles want to celebrate them, then fine. Why should I? Even if that particular battle had been lost it doesnt mean that the world as we know if would have changed. Did not Jerusalem change hands many times. And who holds it now?

This is just an flimsy veil for yet another attack on islam. BTW I dont necessarily have a problem with you attacking islam, but dont dress it up to try to hide it. You just make yourself look very silly and face turning potential supporters and sympathisers against you by attacking a venerated institution.

Quote:

1/ It commemorates:
a) Australian Bravery and self sacrifice

End quote.

And Kiwi sacrifice.

Sorry, and also, ANZAC day is about the sacrifice of the soldier...not the politics.

For once I agree with CG - Boazy really does spout some crap in his endless quest to bash Islam and Muslims, doesn't he? However, in terms of sheer bulldust quotient, this one ranks with his efforts to link Islam with the Virginia campus massacre.

Boaz often claims expert knowledge in history in order to further his hate agenda. One therefore wonders why he is seemingly ignorant of Ataturk's famous declaration regarding ANZAC:

"Those heroes that shed their blood
and lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country,
therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side.
Here in this country of ours...
You, the mothers,
who sent their sons from far away countries
wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bossom
and are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land they have
become our sons as well."

Mustafa Kemal ATATURK

ANZAC Memorial, 1934.

More likely, it's just another example of Boazy's well-documented propensity to tell porkies in this forum.

Stg, ur quite right, it was about Kiwi bravery also. CG. I take your verbal right cross on the chin, but I hope you looked past my controversial title to what I was really saying, and it has pretty much nothing to do with Anzac Day per-se. CJ. seems to have missed it also, because he actually 'counters' the title rather than the development of the thought.

Consider this. When the Ottoman Turks were invading Vienna, I'm sure there were brave, noble and even kind soldiers who were worthy of respect amongst them and that taken out of the context of 'war' many of the inhabitants of Vienna would enjoy friendships with those who were attacking them. Just like I enjoy a cordial and jovial relationship with "Mohammad" at a gym I attend, and when we spar, he has to tell me 'You can hit me you know' because I hardly lay a finger on him.

I'm trying to draw out attention to the bigger historical picture.
We only 'are' what we are due to the major events in history which brought us to this point. They have shaped not only our character, but also the dimensions of the freedom we enjoy.

Attaturk is a man who needs close and broad sctutiny.

I suggest you read the following 2 links to see where he really 'fits' outside the 'warm fuzzy' myth we are endeared to for Anzac day.

http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html

If a man is capable of such diverse and ignoble behavior, then we should be very suspicious of any 'nice' words coming from people with political aspirations in 'multi' cultural societies.

ANZAC DAY is VERY correct, but it is 'politically' incorrect in the sense that term is used. Sure, many Turks are not offended by it. Agreed. 'Islamist' Turks might have a different view.
I urge our government to consider remembering other key days as outlined above and that history be taught, including the Armenian Genocide, and its just too bad for those who might find it offensive.

Poitiers Day, Vienna Day. Lest we forget.

For the very first time DB I find your post dreadful.
I having once shared your zeal for a God I no longer believe in understand it but it is quite dumb.
May I remind you your post highlights the very real danger any religion is to the world.
It is true the war was wrong, and leadership very much like the Iraq war today so bad it was murder.
But the deaths of so many young men who thought they fought for king and country serves to remind us of that.
Our Anzac day services remind us too some wars must be fought and we best do it with better army's than those we fight.
I am justly proud of the armed forces of this country and New Zealand.
And will not visit this thread again as it is blinded by believe I will never share.
A better world awaits man after we find the courage to know we are not playthings of a God.

I would like to see a particular type of two-sided approach to the commemoration of Anzac Day.

It is true that there was great bravery and sacrifice and that should be lauded but it is also true that it was an atrocity of huge proportions - ordering mere boys to run, basically unarmed, head long into machine gun fire was also an example of one of the most reprehensible types of travesties which are part of war.

I would like to see this aspect of the event commemorated as well. I have some sympathy for the dissenters about the value of Anzac Day. Perhaps they would be less motivated to reject the one-sided interpretation that we are force fed every year if both the great and the reprehensible aspects of the event were remembered.

'Lest We Forget' should not apply only to the bravery and sacrifice of the fallen but also to the atrocities that are an integral part of any war.

You're drawing a long bow here DB. Very long.

In order for this to be politically incorrect, you need to point out the elements of society railing against ANZAC Day.

I don't see any.

Wait a minute. DB is speaking against ANZAC day? No I must have read it wrong. Oh dear, he has.

Even the Turks use this as a day of rememberence. There is no hostility towards the Australian soldiers. There is also no evidence of a difference in opinion between Islamic Turks and other Turks, that has little relevence, as is had little relevence in WWI.

Political Correctness? David, you have cared about political correctness: since when?

I think everyone needs a bit of a shake... I am NOT speaking 'against' Anzac day.... I'm totally FOR Anzac day and all it represents.

The point..... is that out there, there will be some sub group among us who is in some way 'offended' by it. Should we stop it ? NOOO way of course not, we celebrate the memory of our fallen warriors, and we also can reflect on the stupidity of some aspects of war and how cheap lives can be to those in charge, but my point... repeat, was to use this as a justification for celebrating things precious to us EVEN THOUGH such celebration might be offensive or hurtful to certain elements of our society..... I was hoping everyone would see that immediately, TRTL seems to have got it. (well done)
This includes 'happy holidays vs Merry Christmas'.

I don't know for sure who might be unhappy about it, I imagine some would. Even the 'peacenicks' would be, but do we pander to them ? Nope.

CONCLUSION. We need to have a strong sense of HISTORY and not just our most recent and most apparently relevant chunks of it, we need to see the connections between us 'now' and events 'then' which may go back quite a ways, yet which gave us our 'now'. Hence my reference to the Battles of Tours and Vienna.
So, for those who think I'm agin Anzac day.. puh-lease..forget that, I'm not. I'm totally for it and for much more !

Yeah, I got that Boaz. The thing is, you can't name the sector of society who is offended by it.

Most peaceniks get it... to some it may be about the brave who stood for Australia, while to others it may be about the tragedy and loss of life... but pretty much everybody's on board with remembering the fallen, regardless of their political alignment.

There's always going to be a few nutjobs who are against whatever you care to name.

The thing is, you're equating this to immigration issues am I right? In this, you're kind of painting those who are in favour of multiculturalism as being akin to the anti ANZAC nutjobs, correct?

Come on now - do you really think that's fair?

anzac day would be more admirable if it celebrated the brave defense of bondi against the invading turkish army. as it is, one gets the idea shooting your way ashore in someone else's country is admirable. and habitual, ozzies are continually having to defend themselves in foreign climes.

you can make a case for pressing up against america's bum, or englands bum, or maybe china's bum (theirs is the coming bum of our time) out of terror at the big world out there. but why aren't the kiwis scared? is there something missing from ozzie character?

TRTL part of my point is that often it is key individuals who are offended by this or that thing, and they then extrapolate 'their' offense onto the whole event in the name of those they feel are offended.
Clover Moore her approach to Christmas is a classic example.
Then there are others who don't want Christmas carols in schools, and so it goes on.

You are right on with the MC and PC mob being my real target in this thread. I'm seeking to illustrate how empty is the concept of 'PC' and how dangerous it is to use the idea to overide an established culture.

I also point to certain religious elements as being equally dangerous, because of the ideas at the heart of their faith. Just as one would be worthy of institutionalized for putting European Carp in a trout stream, because of how quickly they breed and the fact that they consume baby trout, (but hey... they are nice fish in themselves right?).

Lack of national identity makes us putty in the hands of those with a strong sense of ethnic or religious identity.
National identity comes from knowing our place in history and appreciating the lives laid down to give us that freedom.

I have no drama with remembering Anzac day and the fact that we 'invaded' another country. They did their share of invading and while we were invading them, they were slaughtering uncountable thousands of innocent,virtually defenseless Armenians.

Our invasion of Turkey was legitimate because it was in the context of a war where they were our enemies and only a matter of time and opportunity for them to either invade us, or assist those who would.

So, yes, I think it's fair :)

BD, "I also point to certain religious elements as being equally dangerous, because of the ideas at the heart of their faith. " - mostly agree but I think the problem is more about how individuals treat their faith rather than what their faith is about.

Both your own faith and your favourite target have followers of good character and followers who polute the gene pool. Both have had followers who express their faith through good works and followers who express it by taking violence to others. Both have had terrorists in their ranks. Both have had those who practice tollerance and those who believe their own beliefs should stop others practicing their own.

There is something sick about the idea of the god that lies at the heart of monothiestic religions but the real problem is what some of you choose to do with your beliefs.

R0bert

YOu can honour someones fighting for their country, regardless of particular reasons, even though ours were pretty good at the time.
Also why are you grouping the Japanese in there, i think your confusing world war 1 with world war 2.
Its politically incorrect to treat different nationalities differently like you are, if the world is populated by one race of humans, then ANZAC day is simply about celebrating the fighting force from these two nations.

Plus we were invading the Ottoman empire werent we? Not the turks, i dont think you can invade an ethnic group, at least not in any PG way......

BOAZ: It wasn't Charlemagne who won the Battle of Poitiers (a.k.a. Battle of Tours), it was his grandfather, Charles "The Hammer" Martel.

I'd be all for celebrating both Martel and Sobieski, although I'd also be all for celebrating a whole bunch of scientists, musical composers, etc.

Personally, I don't really get the whole Anzac Day thing. I know, how un-Australian of me. Why celebrate the fact that we lost a campaign we shouldn't have been involved in in the first place (thanks to that cretin, Churchill)? Why celebrate that we were suckers and gun-fodder for the Poms?

Country Gal: You're completely wrong about the importance of "that battle". It's like picking any major turning point in world history, such as the Spanish Armada, or the Battle of Stalingrad and saying things would have turned out the same if the outcomes had been different. How absurd.

In the case of Tours/Poitiers, the Franks were the only major Western European power. Their loss would have meant a Muslim Europe. Likewise, Vienna (and Sobieski) was the only thing between the Ottomans and a very fragmented central Europe/Holy Roman Empire. A loss at Vienna would have certainly meant the entrenchment of Islam deep into Europe, and probably would have completely stalled the Age of Enlightenment and the subsequent dominance of Western civilisation.

BOAZ may be trying to conflate two things, but you need to read some history.

Hi to all you good people...

In my humble view ANZAC day should be allowed to quietly 'fade away'!
The day is essentially redundant. It (ANZAC Day) has been hijacked by the Media; Politicians; pretenders; posers; and Kids.

Initially, the day was set aside for both, RETURNED men and women to march and generally gather to commemorate the memory of those who did not return from active duty in a WAR ZONE. Either KIA or died of war caused wounds or disease. Now, every Tom, Dick, or Harry with only a minuscule connection to a legitimate veteran, wears that veterans 'gongs' and marches on the day !

Would you believe I heard one such bloke say, when asked why he marched..." I like all the applause and cheers I get, as I march by..." ? A real 'poser' and 'pretender' I believe - He didn't even leave the bloody Country !!

While I'm at it...I believe the RSL is now morally corrupt. Instead of looking after the more urgent needs and affairs of real, deserving veterans, they're more interested in attempting to sway and lobby governments in issues that are not really within their aegis. That's not their role. As I stated herein, they should direct ALL their energies looking after the welfare of veterans.

In times past, the RSL was a superb organisation. With many dedicated volunteers helping and generally aiding needy veterans to adjust, after returning home to Australia.

As I said earlier - let ANZAC Day simply 'fade away'. That would be the best way to honour our fallen in my opinion. I'll not march again...ever.

sungwu.

Dear Shorbe..thanx so much for that Correction on Charles Martel.. appreciated.
You have a good point also in the mention of celebrating various scientific luminaries, but while they have made superb contributions to science etc, they have not so much altered history in the same way as Martel and Sobieski in my view. Still, I'm sympathetic to the remembrance of such, perhaps on a lower key than Tours and Vienna though. It could be a mention on a calender or something, whereas Tours and Vienna could be somehow given a higher profile.

You clearly saw my point though, and more importantly, you recognized the 'pivotal' nature of those 2 battles for the West and our History.

O Sung Wu.. Anzac day has morphed into a clinging to something for a sense of identity. We have such a short history and so little to look for within our own shores by which to define ourselves, so Galippoli, while a defeat, was also more than that.
Yes, we were the unwitting victims of bad planning and military mistakes, but something of the Aussie character is now indelibly imprinted on our history.

We were invading the Ottoman Empire.. quite true. And as I had to experience last saturday at some rather heavy sparring with a bloke 6'6" and about 120kg We have to take as well as give (I think I did more taking than giving though :) The Ottomans invaded, took territory, and they thus qualify to have it taken back, and their own taken from them. The fact that we invaded was quite legitimate in the bigger scheme of things.

In conclusion, I rejoice that though this thread, some awareness has been raised concerning our historical position.

Boaz,

I think you have a misunderstanding of what Anzac is about. It's about all the people who sacrificed and served in time of war, not about a particular battle. For a variety of reasons we choose to celebrate it on April 25th but it was never meant to be just about the war against the Turks or Moslems or any particular enemy. It's not even a celebration of a victory, we lost the battle of Gallipolli. It's not the specific battle that is celebrated but the symbolism of a willingness to sacrifice for your fellow countrymen. Gallipolli was a defeat and in order to remind us of the ultimate futility of war we celebrate on a day which represents a futile battle. I'm sorry but your complete lack of understanding of what these days are about surprises me.

"You have a good point also in the mention of celebrating various scientific luminaries, but while they have made superb contributions to science etc, they have not so much altered history in the same way as Martel and Sobieski in my view."

BOAZ: I disagree. To take but one example of an inventor, let's look at Gutenberg. He is equally as important in the position of the West as Martel or Sobieski. Likewise, I could very easily argue that without a whole bunch of scientists who provided the technology in other fields (eg. Galileo), there would have been no European exploration. Without European exploration, Europe would have remained a backwater, and might have even been subservient to another culture.

Peppy: How was Gallipoli, or indeed the entire First World War, relevant or necessary to Australians, except as gunfodder for the British? We were had. We can try to dress it up as something else, but we were had. It seems like that's been a recurring theme in our military history -- performed admirably as someone else's gunfodder. We, as a nation, seem to take the approach of Elliot Goblet who says something like, "I like to put my eye in front of doorknobs. Sure, it hurts, but think of the experience I get".

Demos
the reason the Kiwis arent afraid or see the need to arm is because they know Australia will always come to their rescue. They rely on our protective umbrella or is that take advantage of our protective umbrella because we have to pay for expensive weapons and they don't

" Peppy: How was Gallipoli, or indeed the entire First World War, relevant or necessary to Australians, except as gunfodder for the British? We were had. We can try to dress it up as something else, but we were had. It seems like that's been a recurring theme in our military history -- performed admirably as someone else's gunfodder. We, as a nation, seem to take the approach of Elliot Goblet who says something like, "I like to put my eye in front of doorknobs. Sure, it hurts, but think of the experience I get". "

Shorbe,

What on earth are you on about? Did you even read my post before you made that comment?

Where in my post did I try to justify World War 1? I not only said the battle was futile, I said war was futile. If you don't know what the word futile means, look it up in the dictionary. I also said Anzac is not about any particular battle or war or enemy. So how you say I was trying to justify WWI is beyond me. I think you need some glasses.

Peppy: I realise you wrote that. However, I was referring to your comment of: "symbolism of a willingness to sacrifice for your fellow countrymen". Maybe you were being sarcastic or glib about that. My point is that people always shake their heads and mutter something about the futility of war, yet they then go on to celebrate it through these sorts of commemorations. If we really believed in the futility of war then we wouldn't buy into this whole thing at all.

Thanx for the enthusiastic interaction guys... (Peppy_and_Shorbe) I need to further address your points.

1/ Shorbe. I take you disagreement on board, but I feel that there is a difference between a 'cumulative' impact of specific technologies and the immediate outcome of a major pivotal battle which decides the future of the world, as Tours/Poitiers certainly was. (along with Vienna) We can agree to differ on this point, I think both of us have made our case there.

2/ Peppy, I quite agree with you about Anzac day, I'm not suggesting it is a celebration of a particular battle or victory, as clearly it was simply a small part of a bigger war picture, and the Turks just happened to be the ones on the other end of that strategic stick at the time.

Clearly, the fact of our defeat at Galipoli demonstrated that the ultimate outcome of the War did not depend in a victory there. We made up for that defeat in the sand dunes and deserts of Palestine against the same enemy but more in charge of tactics and resources, so our 'pride' or self esteem is in tact.

The only point I'm really making about Anzac day is that we can remember something which is offensive (in my view) to some elements of our society, in particular Salafist and Wahabist Muslims, who would 'explode' at the idea of 'Muslim lands' being invaded by 'infidels'.

Yet.... we still celebrate that event, not as a victory or a particular battle as you rightly point out, but for the other reasons you also mentioned.

So, at the risk of seeming repetitious, I again emphasise that 'some people might be offended' is NEVER a reason not to celebrate those things which are precious to our culture and history. That's pretty much the whole thing here.
The PC and MC brigade are always telling us we must be careful not to intrude or offend..... right? Well... I say, if not offending means the supression of truth or facts which are crucial to our self understanding, then the price is too high.

Hi there...
All this sacrifice and bravery people go on about, 'round each ANZAC Day, is an absolute nonsense. It's the sort of 'dribble', the politicians and the rest of their parasitic cohorts (and the bloody media too) feeds us on! Look at the shameful stunt Rudd and company, and some morning TV show, were going to stage at the Dawn Service, Long Tan.

As far as I'm concerned, pollies of BOTH persuasions should 'slink' away to their respective sewers, and give the Veterans at least 24 hours of quiet reprive, from hearing their lying, morally corrupt utterings !

To all you vets out there...Remember how our glorious Australian stevedore unions would NOT load our mail or other necessities on board the 'MV Japarit' (sorry, I've forgotten how to spell it), because they were against the Vietnam War ! So these 'heroes' took it out on the Vets !! Not the pollies who sent them there.

Marching on ANZAC Day, should be confined exclusively, to the Veteran community only, and not turned into some popular pageant for disaffected wannabes.

sungwu.

I'm still not sure that I understand what Boazy's trying to say. He seems to be trying to cite an instance where the EVIL FORCES OF POLITICALLY CORRECT MULTICULTURALISM don't actually interfere with a culturally central Australian ritual, somehow as an example of why we should be on the lookout for the INSIDIOUS forces of MULTICULTURALISM that will otherwise DESTROY OUR SOCIETY.

Or something like that. I reckon he's painted himself into a corner, and his wriggling in trying to extricate himself is like a textual Jackson Pollock - albeit without the aesthetic redemption :)

At least it's mildly amusing to watch.