Today, I heard a comment on ABC radio from Mr Warren Mundine, a well respected individual, involved in Aboriginal Justice issues.

He said in part that Aboriginals are far too highly represented in gaols, and something needs to be done about it. He further added, many young offenders looked upon their incarceration as a badge of honour, a 'right of passage' if you will.

I must admit, other than dealing with the usual street offences, I've not had much to do with this group, but I know of many who've had.

There's an old saying within the job, when it comes to a radio call, or a sighted offence concerning youths or indigenous offenders, it's described as 'FIDO', (IF) you can get away with it ! I'll not apprise you as to what it means, but I'm sure you can guess ? Turn around, and go the other way. Too much trouble, too much paperwork, and a very unsympathetic even antagonistic Court system, towards police.

Are we too soft or too hard on these specific indigenous group ?

Personally, I agree with Mr Mundine. I don't believe gaol is either the answer nor appropriate for these youths. They often 'feed' on the notariety and hero status they receive from their friends and associates, by having been in gaol.

The only exception to the above proposition, is when a serious crime has been committed, then gaol is both necessary and appropriate.

Further, one young bloke I'd something to do with, the mere fact he'd been in the 'go slow', he tried to imply to all his mates, and enemies (including me) that he was a 'heavy', and as such he could intimidate everyone. This poor bloke did his 'boob' pretty hard from what I heard, and was unfortunately doomed to a very sad life and ending.

What do you all think ? Are we too tough, or not tough enough on our indigenous youth ?

Of course it doesn't work, just as it doesn't work for the horrible young white & brindle thugs wandering our streets.

No "justice" system will ever work without punishment to fit the crime, to enforce it's dictates. Years of gentle wrist slapping, followed by a trip to a holiday camp, with much better food, beds & toys than they are used to at home, is sure not punishment.

We need to have the ton of bricks type treatment of yesteryear, & a punishment system that will make those who experience it very loath to go back.

I like the idea of useful work. Clearing the junk that is our national parks today would be a good one. It might have to be a chain gang type system. The wardens may not be safe with little hoods, armed with axes & machetes loose.

Just like the dog, or horse, firmly trained as a youngster, has a much happier life because of it's ability to comfortable fit in it's world, so too would these people, of any colour, have a much happier life, if they could fit in, rather than fight the system.

The result of antisocial behavior must be made too unpalatable to be pursued by all but the simple minded, so the young hood decides for themselves, not to go there.

OSW, Warren Mundine is a good bloke with a decent brain in his head, and his badge of courage comment is valid. I grew up in Sydney’s inner city in the 1960’s and 70’s. I remember the coppers choosing straws to see who answers a call to the “county”…..Redfern.

I remember the form policing took back then, with the young 21st Division cops wandering at will and pulling anyone who looked like trouble. A smack in the face and a kick up the arse happened ten times a night back then. It scared the tripe out of the lightweights and kept the goers in line.

Young and testosterone enriched is not a new invention, but back then the kids had jobs if they wanted them, and most kids did. With an unemployment rate of 30%, if you take into account the statistic hiding betterment schemes the social security has them on, the devil finds work for the idle hands, as they say.

Aboriginal kids, ethnic kids, Anglo kids, if your parents are poor and you are unemployed, you probably will get into trouble. Further to that technology has sold “gangster” as the vocation to aspire to. Kids are clay and we get what we mould.

None of what I said means that I am a turn the cheek sort of person….do the crime…do the time, but a generation of kids, poor or rich have factors that can lead them off the rails in a myriad of directions. The Yanks have the hard love concept, I like it,….it makes sense, because we have a generation of video hardened youths who laugh at and spit on the soft hand of misplaced compassion. These kids don’t need compassion; they need a vocation and a smack in the mouth.

This lyric from West Side Story, a musical from the 1960's. Says it all.


GEE, OFFICER KRUPKE (ABRIDGED)

Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke,
You gotta understand,
It's just our bringing' up-ke
That gets us out of hand.
Our mothers all are junkies,
Our fathers all are drunks.
Golly Moses, naturally we're punks!

Gee, Officer Krupke, we're very upset;
We never had the love that every child oughta get.
We ain't no delinquents,
We're misunderstood.
Deep down inside us there is good!

Dear kindly Judge, your Honor,
My parents treats me rough.
With all their marijuana,
They won't give me a puff.
They didn't wanna have me,
But somehow I was had.
Leapin' lizards! That's why I'm so bad!

Officer Krupke, you're really a square;
This boy don't need a judge, he needs an analyst's care!
It's just his neurosis that oughta be curbed.
He's psychologic'ly disturbed!

We're disturbed, we're disturbed,
We're the most disturbed,
Like we're psychologic'ly disturbed.

Officer Krupke You gotta understand.
My father is a bastard,
My ma's an S.O.B.
My grandpa's always plastered,
My grandma pushes tea.
My sister wears a mustache,
My brother wears a dress.
Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess!

Officer Krupke, you're really a slob.
This boy don't need a doctor, just a good honest job.
Society's played him a terrible trick,
And sociologic'ly he's sick!

Dear kindly social worker,
They say go earn a buck.
Like be a soda jerker,
Which means like be a schumck.
It's not I'm anti-social,
I'm only anti-work.
Gloryosky! That's why I'm a jerk!

Officer Krupke, you've done it again.
This boy don't need a job, he needs a year in the pen.
It ain't just a question of misunderstood;
Deep down inside him, he's no good.

Not much changes, except the social issues being portaid are from 1960's New York City....it all got here eventually.

If Aborigines have a higher representation in gaols it is a safe bet they also have a higher rate of offending. It is likely the same families.

Criminals exercise choice. A criminal would want to diminish his responsibility for his crime. The hanky wringers must accept the obvious: most from the worst environments take pride in their appearance, do not commit offences and find work. Then there is the smaller percentage who take the easy way, crime. Likewise the first group exercise self-control whereas the second group like biff and beat others as recreation.

There is little research on youth crime and violence. Who knows what is happening? The proportion of prisoners identifying as aboriginal might be higher. But the overall incidence of crime could lower. Criminologists say crime is trending down. I am not so sure about crimes of violence and burglary;

Secondly, youth offenders would get their street cred from committing a crime. Seriousness of the crime and usefulness to the gang would likely determine the amount of street cred. Sure there might be some extra bragging from a penalty. The downside is the stupidity in getting caught; and

Thirdly, you don't get a custodial sentence for a minor offence. Do we truly want to let them off punishment? Maybe the real problem is that they don't believe they will be caught and are surprised to land in front of the Beak. Then they are simply astonished to be hit with a penalty when the sob story fails. The few who serve are lessons to others.

If we really want indigenous to feel equal and be responsible lets stop patronising them. Honestly, what difference is there between the black, white or whatever feral who gets the drop on some naive kid and grinds a broken glass into his face?

o sung wo you know the answer.
I do too.
We see comments from some that damage any thoughts of true debate.
SOME go to prison or boys homes to get away from home, get away, sometimes from sexual abuse of other males.
Some had so little an education the act more racist than small town whites and never understand it.
Some never know just how low their acts are, increasingly violent hold ups and break ins.
IF WE cared, we would give love TOUGH LOVE.
But our contribution is do gooders and whites making a buck out of keeping the country mission towns in business.
From out side Australia looking in, it would not be hard to say we support separatism, them in missions, us housed better.
But while ever it goes unpunished houses will be wrecked and crimes committed.
TOUGH LOVE is real love.

Our resident juvenile career crim has caused an estimated $100,000 damage & am inclined to think the figure is much higher. Some of his exploits have occurred since he turned 16. Only a month ago the Magistrate put him on 15 months probation. I'm now convinced that the Magistrate is a perverse weirdo & the real criminal here.
It is crystal clear that the juvenile justice system is an abject failure. Will a Coalition Government make the necessary changes ? In Qld Campbell Newman's Government hasn't changed anything yet.

it always puzzles me why the justice system which is a joke is always scruntised. The high indigeneous incarceration rates are due to an ernormous amount of crime from the indigeneous community. Policing could be quarterd in some towns where indigeneous population is only about 15%. Why not address attitudes and behaviours that lead to so much crime by so few.

attitudes and behaviours that lead to so much crime by so few.
runner,
It is well known that wanting everything for nothing & having been told by do-gooder academics all your life that you're entitled to that expectation if you are indigenous is what brought this on.
In the non-indigenous community it is that idiotic pushing for education that is the cause. There's no mention of work in any of these policies. It's always & only about individual rights, never about responsibility.
I was told I'll just have to get on with it after the crim who stole so much out of my house got off on probation. Restitution was totally waived by the idiot magistrates.
I'd say it is the Law itself & those who are in a symbiosis with it who are the real problem. The young crims get simply too much encouragement from that. One can hardly blame them for going for it when they fully well know they're immune from Justice.

Hi there SONOFGLOIN...

Interesting ! Being brought up in ol' Redfern. I was working there in the mid to late seventies. The district sure has a unique character to it. I reckon we got more calls to attend an address in Everleigh Street and Lane, more than anywhere else in the area.

Surprisingly, the South Sydney Police Boys Club, was regularly broken into at night and usually just trashed by some disaffected individual.
Redfern with all it's 'characters', believe me there were some really lovely people who lived there many of them all their lives. More often than not these people lived just above the poverty line. Nevertheless, they were all very proud and resilient folk, and hung on fiercely to their dignity.

Do you recall 'Mumma Shirl' ? She was a lovely fiesty old black lady, who did a lot with troubled indigenous youth. Every morning she'd be at Courthouse (in Redfern Street) willing to give a hand to the many young black kids who needed to appear before the local SM, usually on some minor 'street offence' ? I believe she now passed on, sadly.

We used to get a lot of deaths there too. Old people, 'friendless' passing away in their little abode, and not being discovered until the process of advanced decomposition made itself apparent.

Redfern, a sad and exuberant place at the same time. Where a rookie young Constable, learnt the correct way to talk to people. Try to put the 'bounce' on some of those living there, and you'd find yourself flat on your face 'sucking' concrete quick smart ! The Majesty of a police uniform, meant 'nought' in Redfern !

Many thanks for your opinion and views, SONOFGLOIN.

'evening to you...ONTHEBEACH,BELLY,INDIVIDUAL and RUNNER.

I really can't argue with anyone's view herein.

My only real concern and issue is with indigenous youth. Most of my time I've been very much a typical hardliner. Until about fifteen years ago. A Doctor I know, gave me a pretty comprehensive 'heads up' on what it's like for young black unemployed youths who live in these 'humpies' on the outskirts of small western towns, all around Australia.

Most are deemed unemployable, no future, no job, no education, no role model, no prospects and often no family, and so it goes on ?

The 'authorities' stop access to hard liquor, so they sniff petrol and glue, they then drink paint thinners, windex, and when there's absolutely nothing else around, many simply go out to a large tree and hang 'emselves !

This Doctor's a Psychiatrist. Every three months or so, he heads west to Broome in WA, and from there, he in the company of another mental health professional, are flown around in a light A/C. to the many tiny settlements in WA and the NT, as far out as Balgo Hills in the NT. Where he sees mainly the black women, many can't even speak english, who are the victims of some really shocking domestic violence.

And as far as these disaffected black youths, most are hopelessly mentally ill, caused by the ingestion of all manner of deleterious substances, and beyond any medical or psychological help at all.

Therefore, unless these people commit a serious offence, gaol should not be considered an appropriate option...ever.

O sung wu,

There is yet another reason for the high rate of aboriginal juveniles incarcerated in W.A.

In the small communities with high aboriginal population they've learned that if they for instance do a small breakin or other petty crime, they are sent by plane to Perth for assessment and sentencing.

Word gets back quickly that this is akin to a holiday. First they get to fly on a plane for free. Then when they arrive they are showered,checked for lice [very prevalent] scabies and v.d. by the resident nurse, given clean clothes, get 3 square meals a day, have access to a super indoor 1st class basketball court, can play football in the quadrangle, watch colour t.v., watch inhouse movies which are hired each week, play on the trampoline, sleep on clean linen, and have a visiting hairdresser. Makeup is supplied for the girls. So, they didn't learn much scholastically, but they were having fun, and no worries about being beaten up or neglected by drunken parents.

When they leave it is with a new set of clothes and a new pair of shoes. I don't know if the reward system still exists, but at one time they were rewarded financially for good behaviour as well.

For many of these kids, this is the best they've had it so far in their lives, and they can't wait to re-offend and spread the good news to other kids in the community when they fly back.

Although they accounted for probably around 75-80 percent at any given time of all the juvies, the majority of them interacted well with those set to watch over them. Why wouldn't they?

The occasional hard core kid who had killed or raped had often been under the influence of some substance at the time, and a few of them showed genuine remorse. There were a few who didn't. One boy and one girl who had each murdered a person were both half aboriginal city kids, and in my opinion race had nothing to do with it. They both displayed typical psycopathic personalities.

worldwatcher,
You're stating facts which are always disputed by the career parasites in authority & bureaucracy. When I sat on the bench as a JP Magistrate I was told by some up-coming crim why he did all the things he was in court for he told me with actual glee "because I'll get sent to Lotus Glen (jail)". Further questioning resulted in explanations of the conditions exactly as you describe.
Jail should not be an option if restitution is paid but if no compensation is in the air lock the craps up. Those against such policy had better compensate the victim themselves & see how much longer they'll be in favour of the present system.
I am just so sick & tired of these idiot academic morons ruining our future.

all goes back to the totally dysfunctional family. Some of the 'stolen ' were actually 'saved ' because half castes were not accepted by own people. This is a cruel reality and to continue to act because of the guilt industry is reprehensible.Many many white kids would of been 'stolen ' by DCS if treated as badly as many black kids. Many mothers rceiving centrelink payments for kids while granny looks after them and others. There are no winners in this except the academics writing their pervese view of history and indocrinating as many as can be made feel guilty.

'afternoon to you WORLDWATCHER...

You seem very well informed of what actually happens with offending black youth in W.A.? You're also correct with the effect that often happens apropos indigenous incarceration, but then I can only comment on NSW.

Many indigent black offenders welcome time in gaol, mainly for the physical benefits they're entitled too while there. Particularly, around Christmas, Easter and in mid-winter. To me, this is a massive indictment against our so called enlightened, caring society.

Some within this Forum, are ever critical of the role Academics play, in their attempts at social engineering, and effecting change.
I suppose we all have our part to play, in ensuring our most needy are taken care of. Trouble is with our liberally minded and enlightened academics, they 'instruct' us all on what we must do, but NEVER tell us how it should be done ? For this reason, as an ex- copper they do tend to push all my 'angry' buttons.

According to my Psychiatrist friend, you'll never encounter an academic out in the back of WA or the NT. They base all their directions, counsel and data, from what they read and garner from this psychiatrist, and other similarly qualified medico's case notes !

What is it they say about 'hearsay' evidence ?

o song wu,

You're right, I was part of the correctional system for a couple of years until I left in disgust.

The young 'academic' superindent of one particular facility went straight from graduating Uni as a psychologist into his position. He didn't have a clue about 'real' life, but plenty of theories he'd obtained through his studies.

At the time a certain self proclaimed leader of a fringe aboriginal group had the media on his side to such an extent that whenever any of his kids were caught, they were immediately released on instructions from Head Office, as he always threatend the Dept of Community Affairs [don't know it's current title], that he'd raise a stink in the media.

One Christmas I remember in particular. There were no less than 8 of them in the week leading up to Xmas, and all were released [with their new shoes and clothes] immediately after. Just one of these kids had done over $35,000 worth of damage to vehicles with no court consequences.

But he enjoyed his Christmas vacation.

o sung wu>> Do you recall 'Mumma Shirl'<<

Yes, absolutely, mum Shirl did a sterling job of taking care of the community kids while some of their parents slowly demolished their lives through drink, and later drugs.

OSW, I am actually Paddington born and bred when Paddo was blue collar/pimp/gunnie/bohemian. Then it went hippy and then faggy, and then the prices went through the roof, our family did well out of it....eventually.

But I went to Cleveland Street Boys High. Of the students in my classes up to year ten, more than half were Aboriginal, the rest was pretty evenly divided into Anglo's, Lebanese, and Turks. Years eleven and twelve were mostly Anglo's with a sprinkling of Lebanese. I was one of two who went on to uni, a terrible number given I started my secondary education with about 200 other fellow year sevens.

Most of my Aboriginal mates ended badly, but their soft nature and selflessness honesty when it came to those who mattered to them saw a few of them gifted to me by life. But do the boys think differently from me....oh yeah....can I understand their resentment, and they do carry resentment…..oh no….

As I said in my first post, I believe that ten generations out from a stone age DNA, mixed blood or not, the compliance required by modernity is more than a struggle.

Worldwatcher>> You're right, I was part of the correctional system for a couple of years until I left in disgust.<<

WW, are you a pommie?

Sonofgloin,

Why do you ask?

Individual>> I am just so sick & tired of these idiot academic morons ruining our future.<<

Regarding the “facilities” provided for inmates. A documentary on a medium security penal facility in the US showed a heavily regulated Spartan facility. The warden was asked why all private materials are banned and uniformity of personal belongings is heavily enforced. He simply said. “The way I see it, if you’re doing a month, a year, or life, nothing here belongs to you, you’re just passing through.

That is old school porridge.

WW, I work with water, in a lot of remote locations, including the WA you mention. Met lots of cops and prison officers over there. In WA there are quite a few poms in those vocations.

Sonofgloin,

Can't say I noticed that. Could it be that newcomers are required to spend a specified time in the bush areas if they accepted as qualified migrants in the field you mentioned?

However, I noted that they appear to be heavily represented in medical environments. Maybe that's only because we've had occasion during this last year unfortunately to heavily utilise those services.

On the other hand, there are also many other nationalities in hospitals etc.

One thing is certain, since I was young, there is definitely a more multicultural flavour in all environments now.

Sonofgloin,

Apologies, I meant multiracial.

Thanks WW.

That is old school porridge.
Sonofgloin,
How does that remark relate to my experiences ?

Hi there Folks...

A quick question to you all if I may ?

Two young blokes mid teens, both 'boofheads' and full of piss 'n bad manners. One is black, the other white. Police turn up, and witness both of them continuing to exhibit some very threatening behaviour, after they've just momentarily belted the 'stuffing' out of another individual. Additionally, a dozen or so 'warrants of apprehension' exist on each of them.

My question to any of you who may care to answer...Post their arrest, should they be treated EXACTLY the same way ? Or should they be separated, and treated quite differently from one and other ? This simple scenario is close to an actual event ?


Many thanks.

Yes. Of course.

Dear o sung wu,

You ask whether we are too tough or not tough enough
on our Indigenous youth...

The following website provides an interesting viewpoint:

http://treatyrepublic.net/content/youth-and-justice-system-vicious-circle

Hi there HASBEEN...

Most would agree with you, including poor dumb Mr Plod. Apparently our friendly Magistrate did not ! Bacause of the many instances of 'DIC', it was held that the indigenous youth should have been converyed to the Station by car, rather than confined in the cage of a F150.

Upon arrival at the Station the black youth was processed separately from his companion, that was the usual practice since the DIC Enquiry.
Further, as a consequence of the advent of the special, additional rules ('Annungar' Rules, I can't recall correct spelling, sorry ?), added to the usual 'Judges Rules' the caution), that afforded an even greater protection(s) for indigenous people in custody, the black youth was also entitled to have a 'friend' present before police could put questions to him.

The above is only a very brief summary of those events, and is normal practice today, as far as I know ?

Good evening to you LEXI...

Thank you for that link, there sure was some reading in it, and I'll need to take another peek in the morning I think.

The one part that struck me as absolutely extraordinary, was that of conveying a 12 years old indigenous boy anywhere, in the caged area of a police vehicle ! In my opinion, that particular practice, would result in quite serious disciplinary proceedings against police responsible for permitting such a thing. Unless there existed at the time, some very exonerative circumstance. Nevertheless, wherever it was (WA, I think?) that type of conduct, could result in doing your job if anything untoward were to happen ?

I'm getting a little tired if you'll excuse me, so I might just sign off for the moment LEXI.

Goodnight to you.

Sung wu.

individual>> I am just so sick & tired of these idiot academic morons ruining our future<<

sog>> That is old school porridge<<

individual>> How does that remark relate to my experiences ?<<

Indi, it is idle academic reformists who took the penal out of penal servitude. Now days you only do your time, what you do with your time inside is up to you. In the old days your time was the states time, and the niceties of life were outside the wall. I gave the American example of what penal servitude is, and followed with old school porridge, I thought it fit.

sog sorry while I take your side in the verbal tennis match with indy, you give him too much praise.
O sung wo, I have thoughts, but stating them may get me branded.
But considering SOME contributions I may be mainstream.
I believe, with every bone in my body, our failures areas much responsible for the problems you put forward as any ones.
I can go on to tell of my work with this community, and the heart breaking failures.
Very many than successes.
But here are my thoughts, the very opposite of the ranters do gooders,are in control, every failure harmed more by these folks interventions.
A nation wide plan to lift these folk out of povity and the cycle of failures can be worked out.
Make school attendance law, not school no SS for parents/carers.
A job for every kid at schools end not SS not a pretend job, acco9untablev out comes for the work.
Apply the laws to parents too.
Such a loose plan can be built on, o sung wo,am not Dennie the end product of todays lack of education.
I had bto confront a mindless,but not understood, racism from these youths.
You would have too.
We need a tough but producing better, love not rewards, at every step and by every one, for failure.

what you do with your time inside is up to you.
Sonofgloin,
I hope I read you right but I think that is the crux of the failure of the system.

you give him too much praise.
O sung wo, I have thoughts, but stating them may get me branded.
Belly,
So, where are your suggestions for a more effective system ?
You'll only get branded if you make statements that are either wrong or right. Don't be a coward, you can be assured that 50% of those calling you names are morons anyway. The other 50% you never have & never will understand anyhow.

I just listened to the ABC radio News where some Premier suggested for juvenile fire bugs to be made to help farmers deal with livestock lost in fires. What a good idea. Alas, you guessed it, some academic moron jumped straight up & denounced the suggestion.
How dumb are Academics ? Is there no limit to their stupidity ? Why are we forced to keep them ? I'll give my support to any political party which suggests for academics to earn a living from their own ability rather than being given a Government job just talking idiotic crap.

Indi, my eldest is doing her masters, as it happens last night I made a factual, non inflammatory, but politically incorrect remark to her.

Right off the bat she said "you can't say that".

I asked her if what I said was correct and pertinent, she said “yes of course, but you can’t say it.”

Why I asked her, “because you just can’t she replied, I can’t because I would be ostracized.”

After 5 bloody years with the academics she is SCARED to tell the truth.

The academia that tutored me had their roots in the 1930’s 40’s and 50’s. They were interested in the conveying of knowledge rather than the conveyance of a social manifesto that prohibits discussion.

That absolute zero Roxon is pushing ahead with the Fabians gagging legislations, just another manifestation of our right to open our mouths ending soon. Stuff them….what Charlton Heston said about his gun, I say about my pen…..FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS…..ROXON.

The tribalism of "Progressives". They are anti-freedom and anti-democracy. Their way or the highway.

<In an address to students at Harvard Law School entitled Winning the Cultural War, Heston said to the students:

"You are the best and the brightest. You, here in this fertile cradle of American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River. You are the cream. But I submit that you and your counterparts across the land are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation since Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that and abide it, you are, by your grandfathers' standards, cowards.">

The address is well worth listening to. It is regarded as a classic of American rhetoric.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/charltonhestonculturalwar.htm

onthebeach,
Thank you for that link, wow ! If the american academics were that bad back then it is just about impossible to grasp how bad australian academics are now considering they're 5-6 times more dumb than any other. I wonder if the Mayans were indeed right about 2012 being the end of the world as we knew it. Not as in physical but as in mentality.
Some of the comments on various threads seem to suggest that.

the more educated we have become the dumber the population. No longer are people taught to think but what to think. Credentials have won out over commonsense and true knowledge. Indigenous policy along with gw alarmism and pseudo science are clear illustrations of this. You will fail uni for thinking and questioning but pass by ticking the boxes they want ticked. What better example that than the Government of all persuasions. The head nodders next to the pollies speaking should be replaced with automatic robots. They would be much cheaper.

Hi there SONOFGLOIN...

Cleavland Street Boys High School, know it well, and despite being an inner city secondary school enjoyed a pretty decent academic record !

I don't think I could handle working at Redfern anymore. The racial dynamics have changed so much, that my more pragmatic approach would not be accepted nor supported by my superiors ? Thus trying to short circuit some of the near explosive restlessness and tensions that irregularly ran-hot down there, would need someone far my gifted and academically trained than me ?

Anyway, back to our topic in Redfern specifically, many of the youth in that area knew how to play the system extraordinarily well. On one occasion, in good ol' Everleigh Street, they (black youths) decided to chuck gabbage tin lids (gabbage bins were mfg'd from pressed metal/ tin, in those days) at our truck a Ford F150 'Caged' Vehicle. And in so doing, damaged a side panel, as well as breaking the glass, of a side quarter pane. In those days amounting to the approximate cost of about $450+ or - in damage.

The SM in (closed) Children's ('Kiddies') Court found the offences proved. However, in his immense wisdom dismissed all charges pursuant to S.556a of the Crimes Act 1900 ! The only problem, these little buggers had committed the same offence repeatedly, not only with police vehicles, but any other M/V's who were sufficently unwise to drive through Everleigh Street or Lane, on gabbage collection days ?

According to some former colleagues, the status quo remains unchanged.

Is it the fault of the Stipendiary Magistrate ? No it's not. The fault lies squarely at the feet of our political leaders, who neither possess the courage to change the legislation, or to impose stronger sanctions. Gaol is positively, NOT the solution. For reasons I've articulated in previous threads.

Meaningful social strategies are what's needed. These young people have got to be taught their own worth. Given dignity and encouraged to have some self-respect. Otherwise, they simply become just another lost soul, drifting through gaols and hopelessness, until they die.

Hi there INDIVIDUAL...

In one of your threads,you asked '...how dumb are these academics...' or similar words ?

I've being reliably informed, it's yet to be accurately determined the precise depths of their collective stupidity ? One does wonder why then, does government bother to take any notice of what they say ?

I believe if they don't, the academics may well point the accusatory finger at them, in the event that something does go wrong, and they haven't first sought their advice ?

Gaol is positively, NOT the solution.
o sung wu,
I'm of very much the same opinion due to the fact that jails in Australia are mere holiday resorts. I haven't been in one but from what's openly available to find out about them & what some delinquents told me when I spoke with them I feel I'm not wrong.
That however, does not imply that offenders should not be denied freedom. We either make jail a sentence or send them to disciplinary camps. We simply can no longer afford to listen to the civil libertarian morons whose policies deliberately by design disregard the victim.
I'll never forget the young offenders who told me they WANTED to go to jail because it is a symbol of their successful agenda to defy authority. In jail they have better everything from beds to food to exercise & access to hone their deplorable skills.
A misdeed MUST BE punished not rewarded. For those who don't understand that I suggest let yourself get robbed & let the Magistrate let the offenders off so that they can laugh at you every time they see you.

sonofgloin,
apparently some switched on student at Griffith University wrote that.

'Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of $hit by the clean end.'

Hi there INDIVIDUAL...

Firstly I like that quote from the Uni Student, apropos Political Correctness, a beauty !

All of my working life I would've agreed with you, about tougher custodial sentences. We're both mature enough to accept, the word 'tough' when it comes to a lawfully imposed custodial sentence, as a punishment, has all but been 'struck out' from the pages of our Law Lexicon's and legal definations !

I don't believe, in yours or my life time, will we ever again witness such punishment, that could ever again be equated to that of being 'tough'.

That aside, in the last vestiges of my years at work, I began to realize that when it comes to indigenous youth, Gaol should NOT be considered as an appropriate punishment other than for serious offences only. Gaol is what's welcomed by black youth, for all the reasons I've identified earlier on in this topic. The thought of being sent to 'boob', on one of the Long Bay '4 wheels' trucks, is a dream come true.

The term, '4 wheels' is an old 'in house' saying used by police tasked with prisoner transport (aka, 'police habeas') from gaol to court, and back to gaol again in the afternoon.

My intractable opinion on this issue, only extends to that of 'black youth'. Definately NOT 'white youth', under most circumstances !

INDIVIDUAL I do hope I've made my position a little more clearer for you my friend ?

o sung wu,
I'd think you agree when I say that perhaps "tough" should be replaced by the term fair to the victim when it comes to retribution.
If damage is caused that causes a victim to literally have to abandon all plans just so that the victim can continue working in an area then retribution should be severe. In this day & age where work for older people is impossible to find I find it appalling to the utmost degree that Magistrates only put these young crims on probation with absolutely no mention of compensation.
Why aren't their custodians made liable ? I know I would be if my white kid did what a black kid did to me. I will now think of Magistrates as nothing more than perverse parasites..

individual>> 'Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of $hit by the clean end.'<<

Indi, it is the engineering of facts to maintain an outcome that gets to me re academia, fooling themselves and all about them.

I am an alien mind in my household. I have told you about my eldest daughter, well my bride is a secondary school educator and I had to stop attending social events with her colleagues because they, for the most part, are intellectual free loaders, they got their credentials then let the system do the thinking for them.

I example this by just one of the arguments that saw me banished from these gatherings. For years I argued that education by “rote” was the most effective means of saturation regarding the basics skills….reading writing and arithmetic. The teachers argued that the rote method was passé and did not give the kids the latitude to “learn and understand for themselves” as one dill recently said to me.

A few weeks ago a global literacy survey found Australian kids were the most poorly educated in the English speaking world…..we came dead last. These deluded educators have ruined a generation of young Aussies. Our kids are only fit to serve burgers at McDonalds….but that is about the only job open top them. We had more kids doing uni courses that involved higher math in the 1970’s than at present. Our population had grown by a third and the number of kids doing the important subjects dropped by half....

Australia the clever country is as dead as Australia the lucky country, and we have our brightest to thank for it.

sonofgloin,
I find it difficult in the extreme to query a single word in your post. It is actually frightening that those people are in positions of power. The only consolation is that as sure as anything they'll succumb to their own stupidity but sadly, taking everyone down with them.
Re the Juvenile Justice System, If I make a bad decision be it through ignorance or even being conned I'm expected to cop whatever comes my way. However, if a juvenile particularly an indigenous one does something wrong then it is up to the victim to prove his innocence not the offender.
He gets legal assistance paid for by us tax payers & the victim can't even demand for the Police to investigate properly. I think we need to make Law & Order in Australia a priority leading up to the next federal election. Let's ask the parties to put their policies on the table.

I recall something that left a tremendous
impression on me - an unforgettable incident that was
described in a book I read in the early 90s. It was an
incident which the author recalled which took place
on Palm Island, a large Aboriginal settlement about 40
kilometres off shore from Townsville. It goes as follows:

"The prison was a small concrete building, bare and
featureless. It stood on its own, surrounded by open
ground. I could have been a fort or a blockhouse."

"Can we see inside?" we asked the Superintendent who was
conducting us on a tour of Palm Island."

"He turned to his right, unlocked the door and threw it
open. The walls were bare, with light coming in from a barred
window. The glass on the inside of the bars had been broken
and shards of it were scattered on the floor. There was a
plastic bucket in the far right-hand corner. Along the wall
facing the window was an old dirty mattress flat on the
concrete floor."

"Sitting on the mattress were two small girls. One may
have been about thirteen, the other smaller and perhaps
younger. They were dressed in ill-fitting print dresses
several sizes too large for them."

"The Superindent told them to stand up. They looked agast
at being seen in such a situation by visiting migloos, or
whitefellas. The bigger of the two girls had one hand
and lower arm bandaged. Blood had seeped through and spread
on the surface of the bandage. The Superindent explained
that she had a short time before smashed the window
with her fist."

"Why are they here?" we asked. The Superindent explained
that they had sworn at their teacher. They were spending the
day in prison as a consequence."

Reading that story was so unexpected. There was such a
disparity between the offence and the punishment,
between the locks, reinforced door, bars, and thick
concrete walls that were described, and the little thin
girls. It was so grossly disproportionate. What could the
teacher have been thinking of?

I certainly hope that things have changed over time.

Lexi,
With all due respect I'd say you have been hood-winked. I know from several incidents that these kids will put on such a perfect act that they actually believe themselves they're guilt-free. Only a couple of weeks ago the same craphead who broke into mine & twelve other houses in less than 8 months was spotted in someone's dinghy at night. The owner watched as the louts headed out & then broke down due to lack of fuel. The owner waited for them on shore & then belted the ring leader & the others swam around the jetty hiding where they could. After a little touch-up the craphead started crying like a little kid so the owner let him go by telling him to not ever try such a stunt again. As soon as he was out f reach the craphead started abusing the dinghy owner & alerted the Police. The owner only just managed not to get arrested because he didn't ensure that the other two were ok. One of those two later confronted the owner & tried to hit him for giving his name to the Police.

Hi there LEXI and INDIVIDUAL...

LEXI, I wonder who exactly placed these two girls in a gaol cell, and on who's authority were they confined ? In my years in 'the job' it's indeed very rare to confine kids in a cell for any reason. And it can only occur at the direction of a justice. Or again, on the rare occasion, it's for their own safety even protection. Being two youngsters, a watch would certainly be maintained. Kids being gaoled for swearing at a teacher ? I certainly hope not ?

There's a very strict convention emanating from the Hague, relating to the; 'Minumum' standards of treatment of young persons in lawful custody ! As far as I'm aware, Australia is a signatory of this convention. Moreover, Oz adheres quite closely to this convention.

For that reason LEXI, I find the material facts you've faithfully extracted from this book to be somewhat difficult to believe ? Unless of course the author seeks to incorporate some poetic licence, into his/her account, for a motive or motives unknown ?

May I ask you the title of the book please LEXI ? I've two on the events at Palm Island, subsequent to the unfortunate death of Cameron Doomadgee, and involving a Snr.Sgt Chris Hurley of Qld Police. The titles of my two books are;

'Gone for a Song - by Jeff Waters;

and

'The Tall Man' - by Chloe Hooper.

Both authors paint accounts of a very autocratic style of policing on the Island, led by a very physically imposing police sergeant. Further, both authors blamed Sgt Hurley for Mr Doomadgee's demise. Further, this is not the place to deal with Palm Island, other than to examine the facts, as alleged by the author of your book.

In a further response to your question, I'd like to know the reality of those events ? And ALL the facts, before I could make an informed comment. Or more simply put, being made fully appraised of the entire 'res gestae' of those events as alleged.

Thanks LEXI, I really appreciate your contribution immensly.

O sung wo I found the three posts above interesting.
It was from a book read in the 1990,s but when did it take place.
Lexis words translated from the book, could describe any prison cell in that era, even now in the bush.
Unlike Indy I do not know if the kids should have been in there.
But I know my parents, asked a country cop, to keep one of my siblings in for a few hours, it worked.
Nothing but shame in saying this, but as a helper still for this community, SOME kids that age are impossible to control.
You will know that, my thoughts on starting over, getting a 20 year plan in place, NOW to change the whole mess is fueled by the do gooders, we need understanding we owe it to these folk to care enough to make change work.

Dear o sung wu, and Individual,

The extract that I cited earlier came from a book
entitled "Why Weren't We told," by Henry Reynolds.
I bought the book from a Museum in Canberra that
dealt with Aboriginal History. I will quote
from the blurb of the book:

" The book is a frank
account of the author's personal journey towards
the realisation that he, like generations of Australians,
grew up with a distorted and idealised version of the
past. From the author's unforgettable encounter in a
North Queensland jail with injustice towards Aboriginal
children, to his friendship with Eddie Mabo, to his
shattering of the myths about our "peaceful" history,
this bestselling book will, shock, move, and intrigue.
"Why Weren't We told," is crucial reading on the most
important debate in Australia as we enter the
twenty-first century."

And as the author tells us, " What could the teacher
have been thinking of? Did the teacher or the Superindent
or the other members of the white staff wonder what what
the long-term consequences of their actions wouold be?
The Superindent had looked a little uneasy when he was
asked to open the jail. But only a little.
His response suggested that the incarceration of children
for minor offences was not unusual. He did not suggest
the two girls were especially difficult or hardened or
were repeat offenders. They had merely sworn at their teacher.
And their punishment was apparently within the parameters of
what was thought to be normal on the island."

I hope this clarifies things for you. As I stated earlier -
one can only hope that things have now changed - and will
never be repeated

Good afternoon to you INDIVIDUAL...

I must again assert, that I'm completely on your side ! As an ex copper I can appreciate and understand fully, both your frustration, anger and straight out fury at not only seeing justice NOT BEING DONE, but many escaping it altogether !

I cannot possibly count, the many poor buggers we've seen, who've been seriously wronged, that I've had to eyeball them and say '...sorry Sir/Madam, there's nothing we (the coppers) can do...' ?
Because of some legal issue, ID's or many other things that can quickly dislocate an investigation. I've said herein OFTEN. A copper may well know who's done the deed, but he must be able to PROVE IT in a court of law ?

Personally, I've suffered the loss of a car (stolen) a break-in to my own flat (in the early '70's), and several accounts of panel damage to my own car. In a large Shopping Mall car park, and witnessed by those, who've described the offenders as louts in an old car, but couldn't/or wouldn't describe either the make or rego thereof ? I was angry as hell.

The legal procedure we have is generally pretty good, nevertheless it does have it's peculiarities, including that of the 'presumption of innocence'. Personally, I reckon our system is pretty good, though it does need some 'tweaking' here 'n there in order to streamline some areas of operation.

In conclusion INDIVIDUAL, I agree with everything you say on this matter. Our only real departue is, I believe gaoling black youth is counter productive. Most welcome it, and none fear it. And many take great advantage of having been in 'the go slow' (gaol), for all the many reasons we've discussed earlier.

Now our white youth are an entirely different proposition altogether. Most need to be 'slowed right down', and taken out of the system. The biggest question, that I can't answer, is what sort and manner of confinement should they be placed.

Thanks again for your many excellent contributions INDIVIDUAL, I appreciate them.

Since my post earlier on I spoke with our new Senior Sergeant & all I can say is that his opinion of Magistrates pales mine. He had to stop short on telling me what he thought the best way of dealing with them would be.
Lexi,
relying on academic ideological rants as a reference is akin to throwing integrity out of the window & sticking your head in the sand. Keep in mind that many of them wouldn't get published if they didn't run down the non-indigenous & put the indigenous onto that imaginary pedestal.
Look at NLA digital newspapers & type in place names. You will find contemporary reports far more balanced than modern academic accounts.

Re the judicial system being skewed toward leniency when dealing with Aboriginal youths.

Aboriginal people represent only 2.3% of the total population, yet over 30% of Australia’s prison population are Aboriginal.

Indigenous people make up 40 per cent of those imprisoned for common assault offences.

A 10-17 year old Indigenous person is 24 times more likely to be in detention than a non-Indigenous person of the same age.

Who would want to be an Aboriginal in Australia? A while back one of my kids commented that on some admin school forms he had to complete, each one asked if he was Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander. I told him that if he was he would get extra resources. Immediately he started with how unfair and discriminatory it was.

I asked him to imagine that he lived in Australia, but was another ethnicity. I gave him the option of Asian Australian, Arab Australian, European Australian, or Aboriginal. He answered European………I asked him to list the rest in order…….Arab, Asian, Aboriginal he answered. I asked him why Aboriginal last…….because they are all poor, he answered.

That is why Aboriginals need all the help we can give, they were here first and now they are last……He understood....

Dear Individual,

As Henry Reynolds points out:

"It is now possible to explore the past by
means of a large number of books, articles, films,
novels, songs and paintings. Many voices have
filled out the space once claimed to be the
"Great Australian Silence."

"We can now know a great deal about the history of Indigenous-
Settler relations. But knowing brings burdens which
can be shirked by those living in ignorance. With
knowledge the question is no longer what we know but
what we are to do, and that is a much harder matter to
deal with. This will continue to perplex us for many years
to come."

Henry Reynolds would be the first to encourage you to search
for the truth about our past. The book I cited was his personal
search and he spoke about what he and his wife (a senator for
Queensland) had personally experienced. I quoted from his
one particular experience simply to point out that we do need
to understand the past in order to understand today's
Indigenous Youth -
who have to deal with a system that is not equipped
to handle or understand the problems they have and the reasons
why these problems occur. Selective perception and labeling
plays a vital part in any judicial system as we all know - where
some are more noticed and arrested than others.

Dear SOG,

Thank You.

Lexi,
You're reading about injustices of many, many decades ago which by the way have been experienced by all other societies. I suggest you start looking at the present i.e. in our generation & hopefully the veil will lift from your eyes regarding the feigned indignations all around. I have copped more discrimination than any indigenous I know & still do on a daily basis.

Come to think of it, why not volunteer to live & try to work in one of the communities for a few years & then still say what you say now.

Hi there LEXI, BELLY, INDIVIDUAL and SONOFGLOIN...

Wow, there's some very powerful thoughts been added here ! Firstly, the comment made about the usefulness of our modern, and enlightened Magistrate, perched up on their bench, with an abundance of insight and knowledge.

Their contribution in maintaining law and order in our community amounts to...lets see ? In an attempt, not to be seen as being disingenuous, they do play their part. Professionally, my opinion of these subordinate members of the judiciary is poor. Often, they'll not seek advice, nor will the listen, and often overrule, veto, even rescind everything a police witness will say, or even recommend.

There's a female Magistrate presently sitting in Sydney, who's caused no end of trouble. Instead of dispensing justice without fear or favour, she openly rejects much evidence offered by police, even though the value of this evidence is regarded as 'best evidence'. I've no idea what her problems are, but police per se, are not at the top of her Christmas Card list ?

Hi there LEXI...

Sounds an interesting book. What troubles me, as stated earlier, you can't simply lockup a couple of kids for swearing at a teacher. Only a Justice has that power. Police can only hold someone until they can bring that person before a Justice and that must happen ASAP.

As always BELLY, you do introduce a clear perspective and level thinking into any Topic discussed herein ! I would've thought in your days as a Union Delegate you would've been charged with exacting 'Site agreement discipline' within your group(s) ?

Eyes are tired, so I should go. Thanks everybody for your tremendous contributions to this Topic, I do appreciate them very much indeed.

Selective perception and labelling plays a vital part in any judicial system.
Lexi,
Yes that is happening & that's what many non-indigenous aren't happy about. As soon as the word indigenous appears the judiciary cowers behind PC & does nothing to address the causes of the problems. It may not coincide with your perception but I guarantee you that those indigenous who spend time in a lock-up are there because they genuinely misbehaved.
I speak to the Police all the time & they can't afford to do anything wrong or right because if they don't deal with an indigenous delinquent they cop criticism from the non-indigenous & when they do deal with an indigenous delinquent they get criticised by the indigenous. One thing you have to understand & believe is that blood is a hell of a lot thicker than water. No matter how wrong an indigenous is he will never get condemned by his people especially if it can be at the expense of a non-indigenous.
The concept of integrity is as foreign to them as it is to our judiciary.

o sung wo that person, mentioned in your post as problem.
She is a racist and even if it hurts the truth still is true.
She however is not unlike many such law givers.
I agree with all comments about them as the biggest part of the trouble.
I got involved in helping out by miss take.
A Nephew got out of control, and in trouble, he was living with a girl, far better than him, on a mission.
He is white, that changes nothing, police, remember along time ago, followed yet another stolen car on to the mission.
A RIOT BEGAN, TO STOP POLICE ARRESTING OFFENDERS.
a POLICEMAN was bashed, by my nephew.
After his prison term, I had taken his partner to see him often, others asked me to transport them, and it grew.
I think our system , holds much of the responsibility, for this behavior,we produce kids who know no better.
But on those trips,until I became aware,every thing not secured was stolen from my cars.
We can do better, Aware Lexi and I are not seeing eye to eye, such is life, I openly sat things like that did take place, probably still do, to all colors.
But think that book may not value truth as much as some, I do know we must do far better.

(a senator for Queensland)
Lexi,
Was it really necessary to remind me of that ? I didn't take you for a sadistic person :-)
Indigenous of the past did get as much of a raw deal as they dished out themselves. The so-called & often imagined injustices weren't so unjust whilst others were over the top. These were handed out by each side. There's no living indigenous now who can honestly claim injustice but I know many non-indigenous who can. Just because you're being asked to discipline yourself does not make it racist or discriminatory.
I witnessed a confrontation a few years ago in a Cape York community. A new chap arrived to work as a carpenter & whilst having a drink in the canteen with a then councillor another local kept hassling the new chap. He constantly had to talk him out of starting a fight & even the councillor turned around several times & told the local to cut it out. Eventually the local hit the new chap & the new chap hit back & decked him with one swing. Because the local went to the ground by getting decked by a white fellow the councillor, his brother & the local then belted the new chap. That's when it became crystal clear to me where the racism really was.

Dear Indy,

Hopefully many things have changed by now in our
relations with the Indigenous people. Tolerance and
understanding have broadened out. I'm not trying
to be deliberately contentious. Merely pointing
out that the past still weighs heavily on the
present and I'd hate for it to destroy any hope we
have of reconciliation in this generation. We all
read about "deaths in custody," and can't help but
wonder why they occur. Has the Justice System
really been fair to our Indigenous people? I don't
really know. But I suspect that the record is not
a blemish-free one.

Did you know that it was only in 1966 that Aborigines and
Islanders were given the same access to the welfare system
as other Australians. My impression is that this had
little immediate impact, as few indigenous families knew
of their rights and there appeared to be no publicity to
enlighten them. So they either depended on friends and
relatives or turned to the state department with all
its potential danger and threatening shadow of 'the Act.'

Enough said however. See you on another thread - With all
due respect - I'm
frankly too tired to continue with this one.

Dear Belly,

We can disagree on many, many topics - but so what.
We can still respect each other's opinions and be friends.
I fully understand where you're coming from. And, I can feel
Indy's passion on so many matters. I have
family members who would agree with both you and Indy.
Just because I have a different opinion does not mean
that I hold anything against either you or Indy. I merely
happen to think differently on some issues. And there's
nothing wrong with that is there. We all see things from
our own point of view afterall (subjectivity) and our own
values and experiences.

Lexi>> Dear SOG,
Thank You<<

Lexi no, thank you, we are simpatico on this issue.

The boys (Indi and Belly) can be forthright, but without your input they would have no voice…..they wouldn’t need one….no one to argue with you see? Your opinion is of value to them….otherwise they would not answer you.

What I have noted about this thread is that only a small core of posters, pros and cons for descriptive sake, have contributed. Does that denote an apathy to the situation in regard to Aboriginal youths, or does it reflect an acceptance that it is in the nature of the Aboriginal people to be law breakers?

I argued that it was nurture rather than nature, but most negative views here can find a response only in harsher treatment. I personally believe harsh treatment, not inhumane, should be the norm for all young and first time offenders. Scare the tripe out of them; it will work with a fair percentage of them.

BUT what use is that to an Aboriginal kid who has to return to a community in social crisis,he already knows what harsh is, he grew up in it. As OSW said; incarceration is a badge of courage in these communities.

Lexi it is about education because that is what has historically lifted individuals and nations from the dung heap. BUT thanks to our social engineers we were informed a month ago that Australian school kids are dead last in literacy among all the English speaking nations. We rank beside Bulgaria……anyone for dinkum vampires?

Dear SOG,

Thanks for your kind words.
But I still feel that it's you that deserves
the praise, not me. You tend to look at things
not only from both sides, but you look at the
issues around the edges as well. ;-)

I believe that a great deal of the problem
concerning working with our Indigenous people
is the lack of understanding and appreciation of
Aboriginal habits, customs, rituals and
spiritual values. Most of the attitudes seem to be
paternalistic. I'm sure that even in Redfern the
authorities lack the cultural sensitivity to the
local Aborigines, and, for that matter, to the
whites who've made Redfern their home. Perhaps in
teamwork and co-operation lies the answer to
solving some of the problems. I don't think
that imposing harsher penalities is going to work.
It never has in the past.

Lexi
'I believe that a great deal of the problem
concerning working with our Indigenous people
is the lack of understanding and appreciation of
Aboriginal habits, customs, rituals and
spiritual values '

So true. I believe 99% of aussies want a better outcome.

Good afternoon to you; LEXI, BELLY, INDIVIDUAL, & RUNNER... I sincerely hope I've not left anyone out, if so, I'm sorry ?

On this little Topic of ours, I'm absolutely astonished at the intensity and magnitude of all your views, opinions, and thoughts. There exists so much merit in all that you write, together with an atmosphere of genuine integrity and candour. In fact I believe some of you, may well've shared with us your innermost thoughts straight from the heart ? Obviously gleaned from a lifetime of experiances, observations, and even a little pain, you've perhaps been exposed too, over the years.

Therefore, this is data of a kind that can never be repeated precisely nor ever substantiated from the pen of an academic. Rather it must be witnessed, and can never be faithfully retold. Therefore I'm humbled by the extent of your willingness to share with us all your private thoughts, on such an emotional subject. A subject that's dogged our society since the early days of the First Fleet.

Is there any 'right' solution to the problem of Indigenous Juvenile Crime ? If there is, I don't know it ? At the risk of repeating my position, gaol is NOT the way to go ? Many disagree with me, and they may well be right ?

One thing I'm absolutely sure of, anyone of you who kindly responded to this Topic, could well have the right answer, therefore the correct solution ?

Thanks again folks, I really appreciate your many responses.

frankly too tired to continue with this one.
Lexi,
Well, I suppose it is a far nicer cop-out than the standard ridicule from some.
As I see it many of you have the right to denounce our experiences but we are not allowed to tell factual happenings. That's just so typical academic bureaucracy.
I get persecuted & set upon for having first hand experience by mere readers of academic ideology. As I said go to those communities & live there before dismissing our comments.
Just to finish off the subject did you know that in 30 years we haven't been able to put a single person from a community of 8000 through a trade school & get a certificate ? Plenty in the Public Service though.

To all of you Thank You for such a robust and civil
discussion. I enjoyed sharing in our different
points of view.

To you Indy, I'd better explain that I do feel
tired as a result of an irregular heartbeat and at
times a very high pulse rate. My meds don't always
work and I'm seeing my cardiologist on Wednesday
afternoon with the results of an echo I had done
as well as a holter-moniter. So bear with me.
They're talking about some sort of "electric"
procedure for me. But I'll have to wait until
Wednesday - and see what's happening.
Wish me luck.

Dear o sung wu,

You're a classy gent. And I appreciate your courtesy.

Lexi,
All the best with your treatment.

Good evening LEXI...

You're very welcome, and I appreciate your lovely words too.

Good luck with your consultation with the Cardiologist. Interestingly, a few years back, I had a 'Holter' monitor attached to my chest for 24 hours, which was OK. Only problem, the little battery therein failed and never picked up a single 'arrhythmia with ectopic beats' ? So we had to repeat the whole process ? A bit of a laugh really ! Anyway, good luck with your Medico LEXI.

Hi there INDIVIDUAL...

I support most of what you say apropos punishment. Our only real departure is the appropriateness or otherwise, of gaol for Indigenous Youth.

I read and hear the news, where there's a constant litany of crimes, (often very serious crimes) committed by youths too young, even to be publicly named. Requirying one to listen almost on an hourly basis, a daily menu of serious crimes being committed, particularly those associated with the current bush fire crises. And as I shake my head in disbelief, I'm astounded to hear, most are being granted bail ! When it comes to the penalty phase, a solid slap across the wrist, with an extracted promise of never to do it again ?

Incidentially, Arson was once listed as a 'Capital Crime' ?

I totally agree with you and many others. Our Magistrates, Judges and even our wise old Justices are *completely* out of touch with what's happening in the community. Moreover, they've no idea of what the community's expectations of them are. Because of their systemic failures, I can no longer maintain any level of respect for Australia's totally arrogant, and manifestly culpable, Judiciary.

And of course, I mustn't for a moment, dare leave out our highly valued Politicians. Most of which are irretrievably and utterly, morally corrupt ! I sincerely hope you don't think of me, as a dedicated pessimist ?

The present reports in The Courier Mail about interracial violence are apropos to the discussion here. See here,

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/logan-tensions-on-the-rise-after-cars-damaged-in-alleged-racial-attack/story-e6freoof-1226553910948

http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/logan/elders-demand-woodridge-brawlers-be-deported/story-fn8m0u8i-1226553567028

Who is to blame again? What about the exasperation expressed by the Mayor, Pam Parker? She should know her oats, she was re-elected unopposed. Is she wrong and if so why? Because the softly softly approach will continue to be used but it obviously has limitations.

Shouldn't authorities, police and judges, be able to exercise judgement and discretion? Why should one group be rewarded with softer traetment anyhow? A thug is a thug. SE Qld was never known for violence and mobs. What has changed and what to do about it?

One size does not fit all and many of these violent thugs are repeat offenders who enjoy hurting others. Go to work? Not likely!

Why not change a few regulations right now & make army soldiers Police deputies in situations like this. Don't give me any cries of Police State, discrimination etc. If there are not enough Police to deal with these rectums then enlist the assistance of soldiers. All they need to do is pace the streets & anyone seen doing the wrong thing gets taken to an army camp to work until they've paid back the damage they caused. And, you civil libertarian morons pay up or shut your gob ! It's entirely due to you that the show is going off the rails. Move over, let intelligent thinkers run the circus. You be the clowns from now on.

Lexi thanks I agree.
And as for Indy I have not seen him post so much common sense for a long while indy good contributions well done.
You asked a question, let me answer it.
My mentioned nephew, white trash then and still, has given o sung wo ex work mates constant work all his life.
He opened my eyes to this truth, prison some times does not work.
So here are my views.
We plan to fail, failure to us, the folk we say we are helping, and humanity.
From out side Australia,others brand us, for others failures.
What part of protecting the rights of first nation Australians say we pay sit down money?
Why pay any one to sit down.
Welfare can mean just that, the very welfare of a nation of people.
So start with true valued folk like Noel Pearson.
Many such exist, set up youth reform centers far from home, a place to work and after costs be paid in the bank, train for jobs.
The jobs need to be real and the work out comes no free rides.
A whole system of reward for effort, for every one, will help.
But most importantly.
* get rid of the do gooders*
Stop the you can not touch me I am Aboriginal stuff, it exists.
I think until we do give tough demanding but helping every step of the way love we are as much to blame as any one.
A job, not a hand out, should be every ones target.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

What a sorry sight ! Racial violence is a crime that's about as tough to handle as it gets. Except perhaps domestic violence (my opinion only).

There are many convoluted and impenetrable agendas abounding here:-

(a) - Issues of 'Race' are always political dynamite. For Federal, State and Local governments, collectively !

(b) - Another REAL issue here - the Courts and their 'delicate' and 'precious' handling of these types of cases. Sadly, most Magistrates, Judges and Justices, are both nervous even intimidated, by being seen to bring down 'tough' judgements and subsequent penalties, in matters of Racial Violence. They're concerned about the political repercussions of tougher sentencing, particularly involving coloured offenders in their Courts. 'Judicial promotion' is always in the back of their minds ? Naturally they'd of course, strongly deny it.

(c) - Now down to the bottom rung, the poor ol' coppers. ALWAYS the meat in the sandwhich. The old story, use too much force to effect an arrest ? Well off to Court they go, facing charges, allegations, Media censure, political pain (police command), and public condemnation.

(d) - And the worst and most damaging feature of Racial Violence ? Is THE MEDIA ! - The media cause, and by virtue promote, so much disharmony, even inflame crimes of this type, all factions start running. Politicians, The Judicary, and the Coppers, more so police command.

Worse still, people are often working so hard to defuse the anger, and the tensions, along come some units of the media, thrusting a camera and micraphone in your face, and with their indelicate questioning, can often further inflame the situation.

Who is to blame for this mess, I here you all ask ? If you want the opinion of a old, broken down, retired detective...ALL are at fault ! None are excused from censure - purely for failing in their collective responsibilities to do their collective duty, on behalf of all aussie taxpayers.

There's your problems - ONTHEBEACH, INDIVIDUAL and my ol' mate BELLY !

Yep, a few of the blokes who've had a tour or two in Afghanistan, wandering down the Woodridge streets, might be just the medicine required there, although some of them might be a bit soft.

Actually the real truth is that the best thing the cops could do for the Oz gene pool, is take a sabbatical from Woodridge for a few days. When they came back, the pool might be a bit smaller, but the quality would be improved.

One of my neighbours reckoned that what is needed is a few old soldiers, like him, terminal cancer patients. He tells us he would be more than happy to render one last service to the Oz community. He says the pain makes him a bit short tempered, just what's needed there right now. I think he may be right.

I do like that idea of having them work off their debt to society in an army camp, but why half measures. Send them to one of our army camps in Afghanistan. They say travel broadens the mind, if this lot still fave one to broaden.

Lexi>> But I'll have to wait until
Wednesday - and see what's happening.
Wish me luck.<<

Lexi do not fret!

Your motor needs a tune up, and tune ups these days are exceptionally non intrusive. Just last week an 80 something aunt finally had a pacemaker slotted in by keyhole. She freaked out for weeks before the procedure which they do under a measly local anesthetic. My darling aunt said the worst bit was sticking the cannula into her hand as the veins are hard to find. Her comment was, “I would do it again tomorrow, and I shouldn’t have waited”.

Lexi she had symptoms similar to you for six months before an unrelated doctors visit flushed the problem out of her denial. You will be fine my Belle. As the song lyric goes “brand new heart for a brand new start”.
Paul.

individual>>Why not change a few regulations right now & make army soldiers Police deputies in situations like this. Don't give me any cries of Police State, discrimination etc. If there are not enough Police to deal with these rectums then enlist the assistance of soldiers.<<

Hey Indy, why don't we just nuke them. Or they could go the Herod method....kill every newborn boy.

Lets get some perspective on Aboriginal youth crime.

There is a Middle Eastern Crime taskforce….there is no Aboriginal crime task force.

There are constant convictions of Middle Easterners for big time drug operations….not so for Aboriginals.

Nightly drive by shootings by Middle Easterners in their enclaves…..not so for Aboriginals.

Outlaw motor cycle gangs ranks filled with Middle Easterners….not many Aboriginal bikers.

Middle Eastern crime is mostly conspiratorial……..aboriginal crime is usually opportunistic and intoxicant driven.

There is an old saying Indy; “if you want to hit a dog, you can always find a stick”. Have you run out of sticks yet tiger?

certainly the glorification of the culture which demands mob mentality, pay back, woman as second class citizens will again be overlooked. The Westerners will continue to be made guilty that their horrible 'çhristian ' history is the cause of this barbarity. In actual fact they would be right to conclude that secular selected academics have certainly created an atmosphere where the violent, the drunkhard and the lazy feel justified.

Hey Indy, why don't we just nuke them. Or they could go the Herod method....kill every newborn boy.
Sonofgloin,
No, I'm proposing common sense not silliness. Don't you think a few army lads walking the back streets occasionally would discourage the would-be louts ?

Individual>> Don't you think a few army lads walking the back streets occasionally would discourage the would-be louts<<

Indy, do you remember Kent State Uni in Ohio in the mid 1960’s?

They brought the National Guard in to sort out the non violent siege of the uni by Vietnam protesters. The guards shot a dozen kids, killing five outright. The only reason that the national defense force should employ martial law is in times of revolution…..the cops for everything else.

Indi, what you want is a police force as we had before the police force became the police service. You want a force that had a height and weight requirement so a physical presence of enforcement was apparent when the cops arrived.


You want a force that can trust the hierarchy to stick by them if they acted within the law regardless of the political attitude to any issue or minority, so all obeyed the same laws enforced in the same manner.

You want a judiciary that gave one or two chances at redemption, but on next conviction considered you a recidivist and you copped the top number regardless of who beat you as a child.

You want the consorting laws back because crims do associate and their right to do so should not be a given.

TBC

Can’t have them back Indi, the PC brigade took advantage of the fact that nearly all the state police forces were incredibly corrupt in the 1980’s, and after the Royal Commissions threw out the corrupt cops, who happened to be the experienced cops, …..great cops, but such thieves….. the PC brigade sent in the administrators and bureaucrats…..then we got a police service.

The only sound and proven solution is to get the kids jobs. You know that zero tolerance thing that cleaned up Ney York….I found this:

>>The two most eminant specialists, Edward Maguire, a Professor at American University, and Professor John Eck from the University of Cincinnati, rigorously evaluated all the scientific work designed to test the efficiency of the zero tolerance policing policy in the fight against crime. They concluded that "neither the number of policemen engaged in the battle, or internal changes and organizational culture of law enforcement agencies (such as the introduction of community policing) have by themselves impact on the evolution of offenses."
The crime decrease was due not the work of the police and judiciary, but to economic and demographic factors. The main ones were an unprecedented economic growth with jobs for millions of young people, and a shift from the use of crack towards other drugs.

Getting the kids a job is the only solution.

Sonofgloin,
I'm fully aware of the situations you describe from years ago & I don't think too many people are trying to deny it. What I'm on about is a renewed try of sorting out the bad elements & yes those including in authority also. I'm (hopefully) thinking that there is sufficient (hopefully) hindsight & (hopefully) foresight with the benefit of an overdose of hindsight that such forces would (hopefully) behave with a far more enlightened mentality than in those days. Talking with a Police Officer whilst I am typing this post I get told that there aren't sufficient Police to get things back on track. This is why I think it would be a good thing if a Sergeant could just call the CO of the Army Station down the road to lend him a few lads just to walk the alleys & encourage those hang-about louts to go home. Perhaps some tech could come up with a politically correct Baton to help the louts find the quickest route home.

Sonofgloin,
Zero tolerance is what I got not the craphead that broke into my house. I'm down 30 plus grand, three cars smashed. Our Sergeant's car was smashed too & the insurance company didn't want to know him because he resided in an indigenous community.
I am with many on this forum who say goal is not the answer. I'm for making them work under strict supervision & garnish their wages. Word would soon get around.

o sung wu,

No, I am not in the same basket as individual, Belly or others and they would similarly object to being placed in one with me.

What I was endeavoring to say is that these are complex problems requiring multidimensional research and multidimensional solutions.

It should be possible to recognise that those at the extremes of the spectrum:

- at one end only proposing empathy, sensitivity and education (but mainly education) as the 'solution'; and

- at the other (end), relying exclusively on enforcement, penalties and 'tough love';

need to accept that their models are deficient and practical experience has demonstrated that. Informed judgement and discretion must be applied. As I said, one size does not fit all.

There is no magic bullet such as not gaoling aboriginal serious offenders because they are Aborigines. Quite obviously some are so violent and persistent in harming the women and children that the women and children have to be housed in a security fenced compound that can be made secure at night and/or those men assaulting them need to be in detention.

While it might suit various interest groups to cast all fault as being rooted in the (inherited!) wrongs of history and expound education and self determination as the magic bullet, that has been tried for many years and the resultant curtains of secrecy have allowed all manner of violence and corruption to bloom. It allowed violence against women and children to flourish.

All women and children regardless of race or cultural background (take your pick) must have equal protection of the laws of Australia. That is a non-negotiable.

The videos I posted to you earlier should remind that first, the public has to be protected and that includes the aboriginal women and children. To put the needs and comfort of the offenders first as appears to be happening in this thread and has been a theme of policy for decades after Whitlam has failed and is not something that the Australian public will cop any longer.

need to accept that their models are deficient and practical experience has demonstrated that.
onthebeach,
I am not aware of any cases where those young offenders had to repay ?

individual,

I was not referring to anything you wrote. Sorry if it appeared that way.

o sung wo.
Think it is time to put meat on the bones of my report re Nephew above.
These days police must inform before entering the mission.
Back then a heap of about 200 stolen burnt out cars could be found behind the place.
And about 3 kids a month arrested.
So the stage was set for my white trash young bloke to get in trouble, for the first but never his last time.
Police in hot pursuit followed car, stolen, on to mission.
A crowd, violent and armed with rocks, adults mainly, surrounded them.
WT fighter all his life, took one on and got six months, not enough.
How many of us have to confront that at work.
How many want the car thief stopped.
How many are willing to admit separate laws or conditions for a whole people we claim we want to live as our equals is right.
Tough love is still love, and if it produces better?
Bleeding hearts create a mess, we as a nation must get the guts to do what we have failed to do for 200 plus years.
Tough love leads to education, work, accountability, and true equality.

Tough love is still love, and if it produces better?
Bleeding hearts create a mess, we as a nation must get the guts to do what we have failed to do for 200 plus years.
Tough love leads to education, work, accountability, and true equality.

I challenge anyone to find fault with Belly's post.

Lexi,
All the best for your medical appointment today.

Hope it all goes nicely for you today Lexi.

Take it easy today, & we'll see you tomorrow.

G'Day all,
Browsing through the posts here, I don't see anything new. It is the age old problem of youth. Every generation critisises the young for getting it too easy. It does not matter what the ethnicity of the youth is. Every generation has a percentage of youth that 'run off the rails' and these end up usually in trouble with the police for petty crime and anti social behaviour. I agree that this percentage is far too high in the indigenous youth.

What to do about it is the question, or rather what our politicians are willing to try. They don't seem willing to try anything.

I think it gets back to teaching kids respect, for themselves and others. Beginning at home and early schooling. At least some self disipline is required to live and get through normal life in normal society. Maybe we have gone too soft on children and parents and teachers need to install more disipline and earn respect. Now the police and courts have lost respect.

How to go about this to succeed and yet remain fair and reasonable is the big question.

It has to start with the young and at home.

Remember the Redfern riots? What the hell were young kids 10-11 and 12 doing out on the street at midnight? They should be tucked up in bed and their parents there to mind them. What are we teaching kids?

Recently, the police carried out an operation picking up young kids in Sydney, late at night. Most paremts, when contacted, did not know where their kids were and some did not care. Some parents did not even make the effort to come and collect their kids. Makes on wonder.

Can we have a website naming and shaming bad parenting?

Thanks for all your good wishes.
My appointment's at 2.30 this afternoon
and I'm a bit nervous.

See you when I get back - hopefully with
some good news.

Hello there LEXI...I, in company with all your many good friends here, wish you well, with your medico's at 2.30pm this afternoon.

Please let us know how you're going, when you're up to it of course. Until then, please take care.

Re-reading all your threads certainly suggests to me we're all essentially on the same page. I suspect, as one of you have suggested, we should simply 'nuke em' might be a bit of an over reaction perhaps ?

I reckon everyone of us here know what needs to be done ? The problem is, knowing it, and executing it, is two entirely different matters. Besides, without the necessary good will of our Politicians, and the sustained good will of the Courts, and of course the coppers, nothing will ever be done ?

I would hasten to predict, if this topic is again raised in five years hence nothing, other than a substantial increase of youth criminality, will've altered ?

And I'm now completely despairing of ever finding a satisfactory solution to this very very serious social and criminal problem. Nothing, and I do mean nothing has changed in this important area of youth crime, since I retired from the job some years ago. Other than it's deteriorated significantly and shamefully !

God help us, and help the future of our nation.

Speaking this morning with a bureaucrat who is some sort of consultant with Qld Police dealing with juveniles in remote communities I said to him "Something needs to done & we need to speak up about all the incompetence & all the fleecing within the Public Service" he replied, "best to just say nothing".
I think this mentality just about sums it up. So far as the young offenders are concerned he didn't even want to listen. Keep in mind this is a bloke on over 100 Grand a year ! I wonder how many like him are out there getting paid by us.

o sung wu,
I share your dispair. A few years ago, when we had a retail business, I got stuck into a customer I knew to be a hiogh school teacher. I lambasted him and his fellow teachers for not instilling disipline in schools and so on.

He replied, mate it is too late when we get them, only last week i had a kid who had a 14th birthday and you know what his parents gave him for a present, a bottle of jack daniels and a carton of smokes.

what hope have teachers got?

Well I'm back and there's some good news and some
bad news. It seems that I suffer from AF (atrial fibrillation).
Its a heart rhythm disturbance and I'm going to be
booked in for something called "Cardioversion," in about
six weeks time. Its a treatment used to restore heart
rhythm disturbance. Apparently it's what I need to get
my life back to normal. I've also been placed on a
new drug called "Pradaxa," which hopefully will prevent
me from suffering a stroke.

That's all I've got for now - and Thanks to you all for your
concern.

Now back on topic...

Thanks o sung wu - for this thread. I've learned quite a
bit from all the various posts and opinions. What I find
deeply moving is how much each and every one really cares
about this issue. It once again confirms my opinion -
what a decent goup of people we have on this Forum.
We may not always agree - but gee whiz - I wouldn't trade
any of you. You all really care! Bless You all!

Good evening to you LEXI and BANJO...

You're absolutely right LEXI. The good people who regularly reveal their thoughts, views and opinions are, without doubt the 'salt of the earth'. Personally, I've learned a tremendous amount, from each and every one of you, whether or not we agree or emphatically disagree. You've all totally enriched my life on every level. Not only with those topical issues that make their passege relentlessly through this Forum ! Even by the way you individually reveal your thoughts and convey your opinions.

Impossible I accept, but wouldn't it be fantastic if we could all sit resplendently round a huge round table, coffee in one hand and gesticulating vigorously with the other. All the while ruminating on how we can solve the worlds problems ? An issue that needs a solution well before our coffee's exhausted and we all need to return to our respective homes ?

Each and every one of you would have so much to share with us all. If not, no matter, perhaps then by listening quietly, to what others have to say. I've heard from so many 'experts' It's a real art to learn how to listen properly ?

And how are you tonight BANJO...?

He was quite right that teacher ? Then it's hard to know exactly 'how and when' to introduce meaningful discipline, to kids isn't it ? Start it too early, then the child fears you ? Leave it too late, then (apparently) it becomes the teacher's problem. And in my opinion, it's all too late then, I believe.

Also, from what I've read and heard, as a parent trying to instill a modicum of discipline into some kiddies. When ultimately at school, the child's allowed to run riot, without any discipline at all ?

Not sure if it's now prohibited, but a parent applying a reasonable amount of corporal punishment (a couple of smacks around a child's legs), render themselves liable to a charge of assualt !

A massive quandary for Society to embrace ?

If you don't mind, I'll bid you all goodnight.

o sung wu

The family and social environment they come from is dysfunctional. Governments serve for short terms, there are no statesmen to lead and political parties do not see any votes in youth rehabilitation and training centres.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that a dysfunctional system remains dysfunctional because so many of its stakeholders are deriving benefit from it remaining dysfunctional. There are many blacks and whites who get a jolly good income and other benefits including power. However even apparent victims can perceive benefit from remaining dependent on welfare and having an excuse for underachieving, or not even remaining sober that day.

How to sideline them, the blockers, is the problem.

But I reckon the first priority is the young mothers. Protect them and show them the way. However the precursor is that as girls they must have full protection of Australian law too. Otherwise the consequences as obvious.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH & BANJO...

BANJO happened to echo my earlier sentiments of 'despair' when he kindly outlined another unfortunate event that amazed and troubled him at the same time ?

And much of what you've said ONTHEBEACH, though abundantly true, will nevertheless fade into obscurity and allow our collective 'despair' to flourish unimpeded ! Unless or until a (powerful) political White Knight, even a Saviour, gallops onto the scene and quickly inserts some very strong measure(s) to assist in the many way(s) you and others have suggested.

As that immortal humanist, Martin Luter King once uttered, '...I have a dream...' not disimilar to that of Dr King's, rather 'a dream' to save our precious youth from ending up in a life of crime, and treading along that perilous path to perdition.

Thank you both, we can but hope ?