Belly of course you would agree with SM, after all you are one of the most conservative posters on this forum. Just because you might vote Labor it doesn't automatically make you 'left of center'. I have met many Labor supporters who are very conservative when it comes to social justice issues, you are no exception. As for industrial relations, the work place is full of Uncle Toms masquerading as union, people who at the drop of a hat are none too ready to do the bosses bidding.
SM, I thought you would have agreed with the founding father of the Liberal Party, Pig Iron Bob Menzies who believed in a 10% pool of unemployed to keep the working class in their place, good way of controlling wages and conditions. The conservative reduces everything to dollars and cents, we don't live in a society, we live in a economy, we are not people we are 'human capital' to be bought and sold like so much old rope. The driving force of Capitalism is war, and when needed humaan capital can be turned into cannon fodder.
Growing the bottom line is what its all about.

Paul in addressing you I break a promise made to my self.
We every one of us post in differing ways.
Some of our posts are our opinion.
Some are our view of reality, not reality.
Some is general comments, based on what our life, they differ, has told us is true.
I do all, but try ,and it gets me inn trouble, to follow what many/most think.
You are still locked inthe 1950,s, light on the hill us against them ,that in my view is rubbish.
Fact is, in my view Labor, at last, about 1983, found it to survive must govern for all of us.
Your 12% at its peak, should tell you this, 88% are firmly against you.
You hurl insults about conservative Labor.
But be grateful, extremely so, average Aussies never see your team, out side a Labor conference, demanding we? betray working class Australian who long ago, in fact came to the same conclusions I and representing Conservative SM,and true Liberals have, you are a pain, your party of morris dancers can never speak for us.
And Paul, this thread is about defending those things that are Socialism, in our economy, not letting the sheer unchecked mass destroy it.
Greens, extremist left, so like you, defend the indefensible.
We, if we reform this area,may in time help the needy very much more than we do now and save money.
A stable foundation for welfare, a cost efficient system.
Is not conservative, it increasingly is what middle Australia wants.
Sorry but your opinions are only that.

Well that is ok we are not going to talk about it.
But it is going to become increasingly important.
Fact is we can not afford to not review the whole thing.
World wide things such as aid are miss used people have little faith in unregulated hand outs.
And for my side of politics, reform may not meet our wants and wishes.

Paul,

Your assessment of what others believe shows that your grip on reality is very tenuous. It also appears that you are trying to fight an ideological battle that was lost decades ago. The wages of the working class has been lifted far more by capitalism and competition for labour than any union militancy.

Similarly, a firm grasp of economics (often called the grim science for reducing people to human capital) is the single most important factor in building the wealth of a nation, without which there is no social welfare.

Pig eyed Bob Brown and the other alien whisperers if ever given any real power would deliver a welfare state similar to Greece.

Something is very wrong here Shadow Minister.
You and I by our different views and nature are enemy's.
But in this matter peas in a pod.
Not as a defense mechanism against Paul, we do not need that,either of us.
A reality check is needed, if this had not been a hung Parliament Labor would have moved much more on tax reform and all Socialist spending.
Remember Paul PENSION has increased in record ways, it can be seen by most talking from those not in need offers more for the poor.
In my view much reform the greens stalled is about to be put in the hands of the incoming Liberal government.
Greens support for that idiot who stole million from share holders your twin dill leaders DEMANDS both major party,s even if it hurts preference each other to in this election and the double dissolution one to follow closely, leave radical thoughts policy,s and opinions in the phone box that the numbers should see now.

Belly,

We are on separate sides within the middle ground, neither of us much of those on the extremes.