Does having a safety net in the form of social welfare for the disadvantage have an effect on crime, I think statistics will most certainly prove it does. Murder rates per 100,000, a country like South Africa with no social welfare system to speak of 69/100,000, not unique amongst poor countries. In developed countries the USA 6/100,000 is worse than India 5.5. America' neighbor Canada 2, Australia and New Zealand 1.5. America has tough laws with plenty of police to enforce them, stiff penlites. So why is their murder rate is 3 times that of Canada and 4 times Australia and New Zealand's? I'm not suggesting that their poor social welfare system compared to the other 3 is the only contributing factor but it must be seen as one of the major factors. I think the US proves the lie that the answer to crime is a 'police state' with draconian law, it didn't work in England 200 years ago, with some 240 crimes punishable by death, and it won't work today.

I think you fail to note, Belly, that "social democracy" has been of absolute assistance in maintaining and fueling modern consumer society. When the only thing that keeps capitalism robust is "growth" it is essential that it organises society into consumers....that can't be achieved if a goodly proportion of the population are in the gutter.

That capitalism depends so totally on continuous growth is, of course, the fly in the ointment, but take away the social part of democracy and the modern West would flounder (more rapidly than is the case now).

Poirot, the conservative side of politics can't or won't understand your last posting. They believe in some kind of conservative utopia, where free enterprise will return billions in profits (to them), with no taxes, no social welfare, a big army to wage war and defend their asset, whilst the other 95% of the population starve to death. Something like a modern equivalent to the Dark Ages, but a bit tougher, and they think some of us are off with the fairies.

Paul,

What a load of bollocks. Is your position so feeble that you have to make a ridiculous straw man conservative to compare yourself against?

Conservatives accept that the economy cannot grow without growing the human capital. For this there needs to be decent schooling, tertiary and trades education, and a safety net for those who cannot fend for themselves.

What conservatives don't agree with the left is:

The plethora of "rights" that the left feels everyone is entitled to such as the right not to be offended, the right of someone on the dole to taxpayer funded electives such as IVF, sex change surgery etc.

Similarly the left feels that big government bureaucracies can plan and organise better than businesses, and that all services such as education, water, power, health, etc should be provided by the state. Conservatives believe that the BER school halls debacle, the $700 set top box upgrades and the NBN are classic examples of government waste and incompetence, and where businesses could provide better services for a fraction of the cost.

579,
Wouldn't it be good if Abbott et al would read & take heed of OLO ?

shadow Minister you and I clash.
But you make far more sense than Paul.
I remain ALP to the last toe nail.
But find no way to avoid we are spending increasing amounts in this area.
Fact is if, and it seem clear that it will be, Libs with win an easy election.
And if as expected Greens stand in the way of good Goverment, and they always will.
A Double Dissolution will take place.
Greens failing to understand how much damage they have done, even to them selves, will be given a near death blow.
And NEVER again hold the balance of power.
Then even if they need Labor in the senate,Liberals will reform welfare, with a butchers knife and chain saw.
I propose a solution both sides can live with.
That we left of center voters look truly at the waste.
My detractors say I am harsh, by doing that infer any change is wrong.
A reform of our tax system too is needed, we can combine both, in fact need to.
If continuing disregard for waste continues, think about it!
The electors will demand harsh actions.
I believe a job rather than the dole is life building and know most want it.
Extremes no longer carry weight in elections.
We pay for all welfare, why not reform superannuation.
Take all tax from it, BUT demand those receiving $600.000 at works end pay for their own future life not those earning $35.000