/cont
The religion of a region reflects the culture of the region, indeed is part of the culture. Equally, the culture of a region reflects the religion of the region. It is no coincidence that circumcision forms part of Judaism since the it is a health issue in that region. Equally the semitic against pork makes sense in a region where pork is likely to go off very quickly. (I have a theory about the general religious opposition to homosexuality which uses the same logic, but that's for a different thread).

David asserts (for it is an statement minus evidence) that being atheist is the default position for mankind...that we are born irreligious and have it imposed. Given that there has never been a society that was irreligious or atheistic until very recently, perhaps it might have occurred to David that the evidence suggests that mankind naturally gravitates toward belief in the supernatural. As far as we are aware, every civilisation, every tribe, every primate grouping, every learned society has had its gods, its views on the soul and the soul's journey, its views on the nature of the supernatural. To say that, despite this, we are predisposed to atheism is an assertion of heroic proportions that only someone as blinkered as David could make. But I guess its difficult to think outside the square when you don't even realise there is a square

mhaze,

You know what brings you back each time; it is the irresistible urge to prove you know what you are talking about and to prove that to others. That’s a fail and a double fail in many instances. It is your insecurity at fault.

If you would read your own last two posts, do you know what you would find? Well, let me tell you and it is very simple, so simple that even you will understand it.

Yes, it is that children can be influenced to think, talk and act in a way promoted by their culture. I’m glad we are over that little hurdle.

Now, the next step is to see if that influence in some or all parts is beneficial or not to the child and others in the culture and to ascertain if the culture has it right.

It is obvious that if this method of en-culturing is detrimental to some groups, or even civilisation then the culture should try to adjust its input to make for a fairer system.

Religion disallows such change and would rather continue with the status quo no matter what the cost is to others or even if the survivability of the planet is at stake.

Many people could give up their football team etc. if they saw such negative outcome were a result but because religious indoctrination goes deep into the psyche with its supernatural threats and promises for this life and the next, it becomes immovable even in face of incontrovertible damming evidence. This coupled with the natural unease of humans knowing they will die one day and voilà, we have a recipe for self-delusion.

The reason I am an atheist and this goes for many of my kind, is because I do think outside the square because of lucky circumstance and I try to spread that luck around.

Have you ever considered that saving your ‘immortal soul’ as a priority when others will be lost could be influencing you reject what I am saying and do you consider that a tad selfish because, I do.

David

David,
Please give us the statistics on current rise of Christianity in Communist China and Korea. From where did they get indoctrinated, or was it an adult intelligent choice? A choice from atheism while at university in Western Universities?

Josephus,

“Please give us the statistics on current rise of Christianity in Communist China and Korea. From where did they get indoctrinated, or was it an adult intelligent choice? A choice from atheism while at university in Western Universities?”

I’ve never said I am an expert in having at my fingertips the numbers of people in developing nations who choose Christianity, Islam, Hindi or Buddhism. I’m not even sure why you are making such a comment.

There is a strong following of Christianity per rata in China and stronger in South Korea. So what? Does that somehow prove Christianity is true in its supernatural claims?

Are the Chines and South Koreans more in tune with your god than Westerners who are dropping the idea and if so, why is that so?

Are the Chinese and South Koreans more adept at seeing the truth of Christianity and if so, why don’t Western churches follow their example?

The culture of developing nations or inward looking countries can be fertile grounds for zealous cash-loaded Christian missionaries who play upon existing superstition that may not be working satisfactorily to the minds of the inhabitants.

I assume you are putting forward a case that educated Chinese and South Koreans are becoming Christian in large numbers so can you supply some statistics in support of that.

And this all leads back to the argument ad populum if indeed it is even true. Numbers of believers do not make a belief true. It doesn't matter how many people believe a falsehood, it remains a falsehood unless supported by empirical evidence.

I hope you clarify what point you are trying to make thanks because I would love to know?

David

David,
My point is that Christianity (or religion) is not child indoctrination in the West as you claim. If so why is Western countries with Christian families loosing their children to indifference or agnosticism; while atheistic parents in China are loosing their inquiring adult children to Christianity (or religion)?

Childhood indoctrination is not as settled as you claim. Individuals will make their own decisions.

Josephus,

“My point is that Christianity (or religion) is not child indoctrination in the West as you claim. If so why is Western countries with Christian families loosing their children to indifference or agnosticism; while atheistic parents in China are loosing their inquiring adult children to Christianity (or religion)?
Childhood indoctrination is not as settled as you claim. Individuals will make their own decisions.”

The ubiquitous indoctrination cycle of only a few decades ago has been broken, information is more available, the harms of religion are more obvious and people are working out there is no evidence for any of the supernatural claims of any of the faiths. The penny has dropped that the emotional-hold of religion is just that, an emotional hold. They are concluding that the emotional-hold is a human reaction to religious stimuli and if it exists in a person, that it can be overcome.

The Chinese culture has very strong superstitions and it just happens that missionaries have replaced local superstitions with Western ones. The reasons can be manyfold but poverty, equating it with Western democracy, inadequate education, and lack of power over one’s life and feelings of helplessness etc. would contribute. Christianity spins a good story and if critical thinking skills are inadequate, then they can be believed on the word of the preacher. Intelligent people can fall prey to cleverly constructed ideas as well. A big reason is that oppressing a superstition can create the opposite of the intention. It can make the superstition attractive.

The numbers of Chinese people taking up Christianity compared to those that don’t is quite small as far as I know. But numbers do not make something true even if large.

And what I have consistently said about religious indoctrination is that ‘statistically’ geographical location determines the religion of the adult. That breaks down somewhat with international travel no longer a barrier. And no indoctrination process is one hundred percent perfect but its degree of effectiveness is largely dependent on cultural support whether that is localised or national.

Many Western nations have lost that necessary item.

David