Dear onthebeach,

Thank You for the link of Caroline Jones.
I've always admired her and it was interesting
to read her comments especially about Jesus.
As the Jewish literary critic George Steiner
says in his autobiography, "Errata" the most
scandalous thing about Christianity is that it
believes in forgiveness, even of an enemy.
"Christ's ordinance of total love, of self-offering
to the assailant, is, in an strict sense, an
enormity. The victim is to love his butcher.
A monstrous proposition. But one shedding fathomless
light..."

You mentioned volunteers and communities. The works
of the Saint Vincent de Paul Society. "Vinnies"
is a Catholic lay organisation with which I am
familiar. It was introduced into Australia in 1854,
The growth here has been remarkable. In 2007 there
were 19516 members and volunteers in New South Wales
and the ACT, 7973 in Queensland, 7682 in Victoria,
and 7300 in other states and the Northern Territory.
Nationwide there are over 42,500 members and
volunteers, easily making it Australia's largest charity.
Their work is closely linked for those most in need.
"Need" is the only test applied.

No one is asked about their religion, race, social status,
gender preference or belief. What is extra-ordinary is the
range of services offered. The total number of people
annually assisted by Vinnies is an extraordinary 1.8 million.

Vinnies are unobtrusive, publicity-shy, de-centralised.
They represent Catholicism at its best.

Seasons Greetings everyone and All The Best for 2013 - for
me this discussion has now run its course.

OzSpen,

Let us assume for a moment that Jesus is God, he does exist and all the other gods are false.

Why should I follow anything he says?

David

Atheist, Antony Flew, moved from atheism to theism (not Christianity), based on his examination of the evidence. Here is Antony Flew's interview with Gary Habermas: http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/

Flew has since died.

Dear David,

As Paul Collins points out in his book, "Believers..."

"The most radical aspect of Jesus teaching goes
beyond even the commandment of love is his insistence
on forgiveness, even of enemies. In contrast to
Christianity, the other monotheistic religions, Judaism
and Islam, believe in 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a
tooth.' There are many non-violent Jews and Muslims
who are committed to peace, but Jesus is the first person
in history to say that the vendetta and the desire for
revenge are totally inappropriate responses for his
followers..."

Here is the real core of Jesus' moral teaching. Everything
else is secondary. Perhaps that might help answer your
question.

See you on another thread.

SoG,

You still don't understand the burden of proof, despite having had it explained to you numerous times (had you understood it, then you'd realise that the atheist's position is justified by default so long as believers have not produced any evidence), and you still don't understand the difference between atheism and agnosticism, despite that having been pointed out a few times here too. 

You have shown no interest or ability to be educated thus far, so what reason would David have to think you're willing to start now?

AJ Philips>> You have shown no interest or ability to be educated thus far, so what reason would David have to think you're willing to start now?<<

AJ, don't give ALoFI an out re his burden of proof. I have simply requested his reasons for his views, so what moderators chair do you arbitrate from when you deem ALoFI has no reason to answer?

AJ Philips>> Rationalism and Scepticism are philosophical schools of thought. While all Rationalists and Sceptics are atheists, not all atheists are Rationalists or Sceptics. Some are into all sorts of New Age mumbo jumbo<<

AJ, after this statement you have the mordacity to say I don’t understand the semantics of atheist and agnostic.

Rationalism is the belief that thought and action be governed by reason. So you have arbitrated that all rationalists are atheists. Military Generals, Captains of Industry and Academics are rationalists by vocation and many have and do believed in a creator. Your blanket statement is wet irrational self-serving propaganda.

Further I know Christians who are absolutely committed to taking all things generated from humanity with a grain of salt…skeptical. Yet you again pronounce their atheism. Then you capture the rest of the demographic with the claim that the simple soul, not a skeptic or rationalist, is also atheist.

AJ, the implication is that anyone with half a brain is not a theist……..absolute rubbish sport.

I have not challenged the atheist’s views, they can believe whatever they like, and it is not my business. I have challenged their intellectual credibility on choosing the term atheist. How one can have 100% surety of no creator when there is no knowledge of what process or event created matter, and we know the universe had a start point in time. What created the matter and the time we now measure?

As long as that question is not resolved we can have no premise for arbitrarily discounting the possibility of a creator, and I leave that term open for interpretation.