David,

David: <<I have no wish to authenticate or not the existence of the New Testament Jesus. It is unimportant.>>

That's the language of dogmatism - don't convince me with evidence about Jesus and the New Testament because I've already made up my mind. And I'm anti!

OzSpen,

The subject matter is derived from memory of books I have read. It is unimportant to me as I have constantly repeated.

Anyone who can use Google can find information by searching the main names. Or find references to books that can be purchased. One I found most helpful was, 'Constantine and the conversion of Europe'by A.H. M. Jones.

All this material should be known by anyone wishing to argue a particular point of view. If it is not known, then it is a one sided discussion which I have mentioned earlier.

It would be a good learning exercise for folk to do their own investigation.

David

Religious charity is often brought up as a means of defending religion, trying to negate the bad that comes from it, or sometimes - more cynically - attempting to suggest that theists are kinder and more generous than atheists. But I think we really need to get some perspective here regarding the charity of religions and their followers.

Firstly, the absence of belief in something doesn't usually motivate people to band together and start a charity organisation. Especially when that's all they have in common (although some are slowly starting to pop-up since there are non-believers out there who want to be able to help the less-fortunate without providing religions with any more of a reason to exist than they have to), we may as well pick on people with blonde hair for not starting charities.

Secondly, those who are genuinely volunteering their time, purely out of the goodness of their own hearts, would be doing it whether it not they believed in a god.

Sadly, however, some of the charity that comes from Christian's is born of the guilty conscience that the religion instilled in them in the first place. Some is done for much more selfish reasons such as a desire to rack-up a heavenly credit rating. Other times it's done because the believer simply believes that that is what their god wants them to do; which brings me to my third point...

If someone performs a good deed because they believe that that is what a god wants them to do, then that's not morality, it's obedience. So based on that, one could possibly argue that atheists are more moral. 

Now while one could point to the sense of community in religion that helps bring these charities about, one could also reasonably ponder if it has still all been worth it. Or even if we would have such a need for so many charities had religion not had it's tentacles weaved though out our societies, influencing our politicians, inciting bigotry and warping the morality of people who are otherwise perfectly sane. 

Continued...

...Continued

Not to mention the past horrors of the dark ages, witch burnings, the inquisition and just superstition in general that had possibly been prolonged by a supposed messiah who apparently chose to perpetuate myths about demon possession instead of providing us with valuable information about... oh, I don't know... the benefits of basic hygiene maybe?

Let's not forget the centuries-upon-centuries of suffering and persecution the Jews have had to endure at the hands of Christians, and possibly all because of a mistranslation that saw a "young" Mary become a "virgin" Mary. Even the suffering of Jews under the Nazi regime - seen by many as being a form of secular anti-semitism - had distinctly Christian roots.

It seems that it doesn't matter what an organisation is guilty of, if it can explain the origins of the universe - no matter how fallacious; or if it can make grand promises - no matter how unsubstantiated; then it's not only forgiven, but revered as something virtuous.

AFA - "If you are stating there is a creator-god, prove it. I'm waiting. And let me save you some trouble. If that could be proved, there would be one god and one religion and everyone would be convinced."

A very good question!

I remember asking a Nun a question like that at my Catholic Girls College final year in high school. The Nun looked aghast, and then said that all one had to have was faith to believe in God and His Son.
It was the first time I really started to question what I had been taught.

I can't say I'm an atheist yet though, because no one has proved to me there is no God either.
I really don't know...and neither does anyone else.

Hi David, I enjoyed your chat on the radio today. :)

David,

<<All this material should be known by anyone wishing to argue a particular point of view. If it is not known, then it is a one sided discussion which I have mentioned earlier.

It would be a good learning exercise for folk to do their own investigation.>>

I have done my own historical investigations of Jesus and the New Testament and my conclusions are radically different from yours.