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The Forum > General Discussion > Islam and Labor?

Islam and Labor?

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Recently the Labor Caucus voted to abstain from voting against a resolution to allow Palistine some rights on the UN. Untill now Aus has always supported the US and Israel.

What does this change tell us about Labor parliamentarians?

What does this change tell us about the growing influence of Islam in Aus politics?

Is this change in our interests?

Should it cause us to reconsider our non-discrimatory immigration policies?
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 29 November 2012 10:22:41 AM
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Interesting questions, Banjo.

>>What does this change tell us about Labor parliamentarians?<<

Nothing that we didn't know before, unfortunately.

On the one hand there is a streak of international idealism/naivety that showed through when Andrew Leigh proposed that Australia should actually vote "yes" to the enhanced recognition of a terrorist-inspired state.

And on the other, we saw the knee-jerk, follow-my-leader reaction of Ms Gillard in proposing that we show unquestioned support for the US.

It would be nice to think that the compromise position of abstention was a product of consummate statesmanship and positive thinking, aimed at making a strong statement to the UN and our partners. An indication, perhaps, supported by public pronouncements in Parliament, that we consider the request to be premature, but would still remain open to a constructive approach to peace in the Middle East that involved some concessions on both sides.

Fat chance.

Regrettably, it looked more like a severe and debilitating attack of nervous indecisiveness in the face of a key global issue, that bodes ill for our buggins-turn at the UN high table. Incidentally, Bob Carr's attempts to paper it over with excuses were consummately embarrassing, despite the velvety baritone in which they were delivered.

>>What does this change tell us about the growing influence of Islam in Aus politics?<<

Absolutely nothing. It is a statehood issue, not a religious one.

>>Is this change in our interests?<<

What change?.

A change would when we stop dithering about, gazing mindlessly at our navel, and instead formulate a coherent, independent and principled foreign policy.

Once again. Fat chance.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:32:48 PM
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I am proud of the out come, and amused by Banjos inference.
Gillard wanting to climb up a vital part of the USA s body.
Cabinet saying no.
We must confront not every thing Israel does is Right.
Worth noting England is considering the same action.
No Islamic ploy here, nothing top see lets move along.
Please consider, England is ruled by? conservatives.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 29 November 2012 3:38:08 PM
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Hey Banjo et all,
Two things - have you thought the Israelis may be the bad guys and, I thought Hamas was the democratically elected Government of Palestine.
Posted by Waterhole, Thursday, 29 November 2012 4:06:11 PM
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Banjo,

Are you referring to Palestinian recognition as a member state by UNESCO?
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 29 November 2012 4:14:22 PM
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Hell Banjo, The fear that Islamists will control our political system is credible. It simply comes down to birth rate and time. Islamic Arabs are already the major voting bloc in several electorates and that is what drove Labors decision to abstain from voting along Israel/American lines.

My personal view is that Israel should go back to their pre 1966 boarders and stop treating the Palestinians like Germany treated the Jews of Europe pre 1945. Semitic peoples be they Arab or Israeli are closed cultures. The vast vast majority only marry another Semite. Both cultures are basically tribal and tribal cultures create zealots.

It is a law of nature that all events exist because the sum of the parts of the subject has hit critical mass. When Islam hits critical mass in Australia we are all done, a page in the history books, but such is evolution.

My only footnote is that Islam will eventually be overrun by the Sub Continent and China. Australia in 100 years will be Asian. The Arabs and Europeans will be as disenfranchised as the Aboriginals are today.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 29 November 2012 6:41:47 PM
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sonofglobin

I agree with all you say and there is one other thing that will
also aid the dispossession of the Arabs and the Anglos in Australia
within possibly 50years but certainly in 100years.

That is
the huge demographic shift in The United States. The Super power
weapons will then be in the hands of the Mexicans or African Americans.
America will cease to be an allie and those weapons will no longer be used in the defence of Australia but in the defence and advancement of Mexico and Africa.

Without that protection we will indeed be overrun by Mainland China
or even Indonesia to the north or maybe both, in an allied attack with China. Later they may divide the country into two countries as a reward for their co-operation.
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 29 November 2012 8:31:55 PM
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Banjo! I thought better of you!
I share your concerns about the Muslim world.
Only this morning a link to the murder of a 15 year old, for refusing marriage!
A wife MURDERED by 4 of her husbands family! for refusing to become a PROSTITUTE!
But you have dog whistled, and they are queuing to piddle here in this thread.
I think it is the extreme nature of Islamists, the extreme Muslim religion, and its intended inclusiveness we loath.
But you put just that in to post, linking the ALP.
Are you not aware the Australian Labor Party voters MOSTLY share our views.
You by unfounded and untrue allegations put all of us, in a pro Palestinian basket.
Can you even think the UN action of not voting ,supported and forced on Gillard by her cabinet, is anti west?
Leaving now piddle is rising and not putting gum boots on in this heat.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 30 November 2012 6:44:34 AM
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Cherful the re election of Obama is an example of the shift of power to non Caucasians. The whole of the first world has been socially engineered to weaken the homogenous nature of traditionally Caucasian nations. Divide and conquer is at the base of migration policies that come from the U.N. and have been adopted by the political class in all first world nations.

Human migration is part of the evolution story and the new worlds which include Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand were built on colonization, usurping the native inhabitants. But the errant view that Caucasians were bringing civilization to these lands and their peoples is a dated philosophy that decreed that one race was superior to another.

We live in enlightened times and immigrants to these nations in the past 60 years have been focused on integration and assimilation, they wanted to be American, Australian ,Canadian, or Kiwi, but Islam carries no passport. Islam is a threat to nationalism which is what those who seek OWG need to overthrow.

Banjo asks us “Should it cause us to reconsider our non-discrimatory immigration policies?” which is a mute question given we have all signed away our sovereignty regarding who we let into our nation. The first world’s immigration policy is U.N. policy, and we the people have no say in it.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 30 November 2012 6:53:02 AM
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Belly>> But you have dog whistled, and they are queuing to piddle here in this thread.<<

Belly my china, people are people, we are all the same and most peoples of the first world have accepted this fact. I have a mosque just down the road from me, and I have no issue one way or the other with that. I do not spit on the ground the mosque stands on; I do not vilify the worshipers at that mosque, I don’t even look at them twice.

But if I emigrated to any of the Arabic Moslem nations or Israeli and set up churches in their suburbs the life of the parishioners would be in jeopardy. That is what Islam is about. Like the Cuckoo once the egg has hatched the fledgling throws the first inhabitants out of the nest. So suggesting that all who do not agree with you are piddling in this thread is naïve. There is a reality to life that no amount of Political Correct ideology can alter.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 30 November 2012 7:07:59 AM
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sonofgloin,
Do you really think that if the Israelis retreated back to the pre 1966 border there would be peace? LOL
If the Palestinians were given their own land to govern, there would be peace?LOL
I am just interested in a body count of just how many Palestinians have been placed in gas chambers. ROFL
Posted by ponde, Friday, 30 November 2012 7:23:48 AM
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Can someone explain this "Dog whistle" insult to me?
It seems it is used by people who espouse freedom but really just want to insult and denigrate other's views and enforce their own views by insult and denigration.
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 30 November 2012 7:28:52 AM
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Pericles said;
Absolutely nothing. It is a statehood issue, not a religious one.

Yeah ? Are you really serious ?

The Labour party is at risk of becoming the Islamic party or at least
in the way our parliaments are usually almost balanced, will be in
the situation that a large minority can determine policy.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 30 November 2012 9:10:35 AM
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Yes J Bowyer I agree. I never read past it myself. The moment I see "dog whistle" I think the poster is the injury caused by a sharp pointed implement, & ignore the rest.

It is merely a b grade way of trying to put down the counter arguments of posters to follow
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 30 November 2012 11:18:55 AM
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sonofglobin-again I agree with all you say, but I would like to just
discuss the following.

<But the errant view that Caucasians were bringing civilization to these lands and their peoples is a dated philosophy that decreed that one race was superior to another.>

It should be a dated philosophy, but in reality the world continues on it’s ethnic cleansing way unabated.

The Arabs wish to ethnically cleanse the Jews(they have said, we will wipe the jews off the map) from Palestine, and the Jews no doubt are guilty of trying to rid Israel and the Gaza strip of Palestinians.

The islamist protestors recently in Sydney, declared the Infidel (which means the devil) are inferior to the Islamists so we wouldn’t go to heaven only they would. Surpremasist Thinking, you bet!

If the Australian army hadn’t stepped in, the Timorese would have been pretty much ethnically cleansed by now. The indigenous Solomon Islanders attacked the Chinese immigrants and they would have been in serious danger of being ethnically cleansed if the Australian army hadn’t gone in there as well..

Then we have the ethnic hostility that resulted in the coup in Fiji.
Anyone who believes that we are not tribally, territorial, aggressive is living in Academic, Hippy, United Nations, Fairy La La Land.

If we can manage to assimilate at the tribal,bloodline level we will go forward in peace in Australia but if not, we will be recorded in history for our civil wars and the splitting of this country
Into different countries or "separate states" as the Tamils and other Civil-War lords,(rebels, militia, revolutionaries etc)like to call them.

History past and history present demonstrates this clearly.
Blindingly so.
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 30 November 2012 1:44:38 PM
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Ponde,
Israel wasn't founded because of WW2,the idea of Jewish state long predates the 1933-45 issues and many former inmates of the German internment and labour camps have lived in poverty in Israel as they are accorded no particular standing above anyone else in that country. The "Holocaust" faith and the over the top Zionism of AIPAC is a belief system of mainly non observant Jews from countries outside Israel chiefly the U.S.A, Tony Judt explains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTc6LBtWEg0

For example, the Yad Vashem memorial in Israel was built with funds mainly from American donors and the ubiquitous "holocaust" memorials in every major Western city are not being built by Israel but by local Jewish groups.
My point is that so much water has passed under the bridge since 1948 that the "Holocaust" metaphor, or allegory if you will is no longer relevant and is just a cheap tactic used by people with no personal stake in the issue to shut down an opponent, be they of the Left or the Right. When confronting a Leftist on the issue invoke Auschwitz, when confronting a right winger accuse the Israelis of being "Nazis", it's the type of argument most often used by blockheads or trolls.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 November 2012 1:57:35 PM
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Ponde>>Do you really think that if the Israelis retreated back to the pre 1966 border there would be peace?<<

Ponde probably not, the Palestinians are a feisty bunch.

My point is that the territory that Israel was given should be all they retain control over. They are expanding their settlements and further eroding the land that the U.N. identified as Palestine in 1948.If history was different my personal view is that any aggression from Palestine towards Israel should be answered with overwhelming force. If the Palestinians persist, then the overwhelming force persists.

But I do not see it that way at present. As it stands Israel has continued the provocation by illegally occupying territory from Egypt, Jordon, and Syria. In 1967 if they had moved back to their own boarders and the Palestinians persisted with aggression I believe the neighboring Arab nations would have eventually worked with Israel to keep the Palestinians in check. Understand it or not, the Palestinians are not top of the favorites list amongst other Arabs. They are a pain in the posterior when in numbers.

Ponde>>If the Palestinians were given their own land to govern, there would be peace?<<

The Arabs never got the bee out of their posterior and the simplistic Moslem masses had governments that carried an anti Israeli posture, so the plebeian tribal simpletons had their Satan to hate. No mate its Israel’s fault. There is an adage that comes to mind…sheit does not offend the olfactory if you do not poke it with a stick.

Ponde>>I am just interested in a body count of just how many Palestinians have been placed in gas chambers.<<

Look Ponde old fruit, what’s done is done. My only comment is that the Russians lost over twenty million during that war, the majority was civilian. Past suffering does not give you a GET EVEN card to be trotted out when needed against a civilian population.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 30 November 2012 2:11:44 PM
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Are we a racist nation?
Heard that Melbourne bus dirt being rebroadcast on SBS radio last night.
It hurt, I felt ashamed.
Here the thread asks about , on a two party preferred, near half our population ALP and its voters by inference.
It, as time has passed, has seen two thirds of the UN vote yes.
Not for full membership, not in agreement with the terrorist acts from the west bank.
No vote has been taken asking us to agree to the primitive middle ages hate, generated by Islam.
Unfortunately, we have not been asked what rights we would have in any Muslim country, or do we want to share our country with these folk.
We are asked about ALP voting as two thirds of the world did.
Now that question asker,I NEVER shake hands or talk to any one I hold so little regard for, have not forgotten or forgiven your rude introduction here.
This thread has many contributors DOG WHISTLING.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 30 November 2012 2:20:09 PM
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Really people, really.
You might want to look at Labor in microcosm, as in the saga of my local council in Darebin, or in neighbouring Moreland, once again a Labor dominated council albeit with a differing ethnic agenda is once again slated for dismissal, to be handed over to administrators. This is the second time in 15 years this has happened, first it was a Greek dominated Labor council which had to be sacked amid allegations of corruption, now this "Lebanese Entity" within Labor is under scrutiny:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/darebin-council-could-face-sack-20121128-2aef2.html
Politics under Labor seems to be little more than an ethnic spoils system, where privilege is granted via ethnic ties, the larger Islamic angle is not really plausible from the point of view of a Victorian since the Greens seem to attract more Muslim candidates here but I've no doubt the same things are going on elsewhere and I'm sure the Greens or the Libs will end up the same way if they insist on playing ethno politics to get votes. So again we have revealed to us another "hidden agenda' for excessive Third World immigration and the corruption which follows. I'm not saying White people aren't corruptible, they're certainly up to their necks in this but if you have a community which is mostly homogenous this nepotism and system of ethnic political/commercial privilege is one less layer to the onion, it's not untruthful to say that Australian politics would be less corrupt if it were serving a homogenous society since there is little to no ethnic or group identity among Whites.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 November 2012 2:23:42 PM
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Banjo,

"What does this change tell us about Labor parliamentarians?"

Well, actually, it tells us that a majority of Labor MPs has an appreciation of the human rights issues involved, it's an encouraging development.
Posted by mac, Friday, 30 November 2012 2:37:36 PM
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CHERFUL>> It should be a dated philosophy, but in reality the world continues on it’s ethnic cleansing way unabated.<<

Yes I know, we are a self serving bunch of bastards ruled by emotion and corralled together by ethnic, social, and indoctrination fences. The other day I had the want to kill a fellow Aussie. I didn’t want him dead, but I did want to kill him. Unless we become automatons we will always act against logic and ethics.

>>The islamist protestors recently in Sydney, declared the Infidel (which means the devil) are inferior to the Islamists so we wouldn’t go to heaven only they would. Surpremasist Thinking, you bet!<<

Do they hate us and Australia….you bet.

>>If the Australian army hadn’t stepped in, the Timorese would have been pretty much ethnically cleansed by now.<<

The Indonesians are supremists, and remember they were leisurely sailing down to Australia for picnics before the Dutch and the English realized that boats float.. Yes Australia belongs to the Indonesians as far as they are concerned. We are like Hong Kong, the lease will be up soon.

>>The indigenous Solomon Islanders attacked the Chinese immigrants and they would have been in serious danger of being ethnically cleansed if the Australian army hadn’t gone in there as well..<<

Poor old Solly’s, the Chinese easily became the money in a society that had none.

>>Then we have the ethnic hostility that resulted in the coup in Fiji.<<

Like the Solly’s and their Chinese immigrants, the Indians ran and owned everything in Fiji, but the government was the last straw. They went for the assurance of ancestral governance.

>>Anyone who believes that we are not tribally, territorial, aggressive is living in Academic, Hippy, United Nations, Fairy La La Land.<<

So many of them out there
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 30 November 2012 2:53:52 PM
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Belly>> Now that question asker,I NEVER shake hands or talk to any one I hold so little regard for, have not forgotten or forgiven your rude introduction here.<<

Belly are you talking about me, if so remind me tiger, I forget, but it must have been a real body shot.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 30 November 2012 3:01:34 PM
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mac,
You are the first to post a credible answer to my first question.

You may be right, it would be nice to think so anyway. But why the sudden change? Has Gaza had a decline in human rights since our last vote in the UN. What about Israel receiving almost 2000 rockets and mortars in the last 12 months. Is that not a human rights issue. I understand Hamas has a written intent to eradicate jews. A human rights issue?

Why would Labor caucus members change their opinion? Some reports say that Carr reminded the PM of the upcoming election, and the need to appease the ethnic voters. If so, how does that aline with our best interests or only the self interests of some Caucus members.

The next question is about the growing influence of Islam in our politics. Will muslims flex their musles to influence policy? I recall years ago that Carr, when NSW Premier, was threatened by sheik Hilarli, that if he did not do more for muslims he could organize 30,000 votes against his government. Now Hilarli may have been exaggerating, but I have not forgotten that.

I see muslim influence in politics in Uk and Europe and see the same happening here. This is not a fear but an awareness.

Are we happy to go this way? Is it in our interests? Will a change in immigration policies alter the political course?
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 30 November 2012 3:40:54 PM
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J Bowyer,
Hasbeen is right. 'Dog whistle' is an accusation made about an oponate to your view, suggesting that you are encouraging others hold similar views to post. Used in the same manner as an accusation of 'racist' to a person who opposes high immigration or illegal boat arrivals. I have been around too long to go on the defencive when accused of such. Other posterd can make up their own mind about that.

In this particular case, these questions came to me after reading articles about the Labor caucus decission.

I decided the thoughts may provide some interesting views, so posted them for discussion. I do not think we have heard the last of the issue in the media.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 30 November 2012 4:19:54 PM
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Banjo,

To avoid any misunderstandings---I certainly don't have any sympathy for Islam and I'm definitely (1) not a cultural relativist and (2) not a supporter of "Multiculturalism" as a doctrine. That said--

I don't accept that the West is in an existential struggle with Islam, that's over, Israel is fighting a colonial war for its own reasons.

< What about Israel receiving almost 2000 rockets and mortars in the last 12 months.>

This is a phase in a very long war which was planned more than a century ago-- each side retaliates in response to an earlier provocation by the other and the first provocation, of course, was the arrival of the first Zionist "settlers".

<Has Gaza had a decline in human rights since our last vote in the UN?>

Perhaps, but's that not the appropriate question, what has happened is a gradual shift in the perception of Israel and its behaviour, and as a result, an increasing moral repugnance on the part of Western politicians in general. Uncritical support for Israel was seen as the price Australians paid for the US alliance, it's apparently becoming insupportable for a majority of labor MPs.

As to threats from Hamas, listen to some of the Israeli "settlers" and members of Likud's opinions of Arabs.

Islamisation and the oppression of the Palestinians are two completely separate issues.
Posted by mac, Friday, 30 November 2012 7:30:21 PM
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mac,
you said. "what has happened is a gradual shift in the perception of Israel and its behaviour, and as a result, an increasing moral repugnance on the part of Western politicians in general. Uncritical support for Israel was seen as the price Australians paid for the US alliance, it's apparently becoming insupportable for a majority of labor MPs".

So you think the Labor poiticians decided their stance because they honestly changed their opinion about Israel and now think the Palestinians need the support.

Funny that the government has never made known about any discussion of Israel losing our support. Nor opinions expressed by Carr or his predecessor Rudd. The latest comment about the situation was by the PM herself who stated that Israel had right to protect its citizens from the rocket attacks.

It seems to me that you are wrong and it is more likely that the labor elected members made the decission entirely in the self interest of themselves by endeavouring to appease and gain the ethnic vote. No, they are too principled to sell their sole for some votes arn't they?

The muslims and the left have always supported the Palestinians, no matter how many terrorist attacks they instigated. Remember the bloke with the tea towel on his head. Was it Arrafat? Terrorism was the by word under him. These days they simply lob rockets in from afar.

Israel has been under attack or the threat thereof ever since its existance.

From the smh this morning:-The Hamas Charter calls explicitly for Israel's violent destruction in overtly racist terms. There is no diplomatic pressure on Hamas and the other factions to turn away from their genocidal path.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 30 November 2012 9:53:52 PM
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I was not being smart I seriously do not understand what people mean by "Dog Whistle" please try and answer me in a rational way without all the insults and flip flopping around. What do you mean?
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 30 November 2012 9:54:45 PM
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Sonofgloin! no! surely you know better?
Read th with drawal above!
You and I will continue to clash, in truth we are not at one another,s throats, we even agree.
Look face it, some times kids, or the not yet grown up miss stake us for a children,s posting site.
We even get rejects ,cast offs, from other sites.
Not just me, some of our best posters have been needlessly insulted, no one more than me, being flamed and haunted, by just such a person.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 1 December 2012 5:57:34 AM
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>>I was not being smart I seriously do not understand what people mean by "Dog Whistle" please try and answer me in a rational way without all the insults and flip flopping around. What do you mean?<<

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dog+whistle+politics

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 1 December 2012 7:13:58 AM
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Glad to hear that Belly....
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 1 December 2012 7:23:56 AM
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Banjo,

Of course, neither of us can be sure as to the real motivations behind what choices a politician makes, however I'd like to be charitable and regard the recent decision as a partial return to Labor values.

I've previously indicated that I don't accept the equation Palestinians=terrorists=Moslems and that Israel is on the front line defending the West from the Islamic hordes.

You seem to be ignoring the history of the Zionist movement and its implications for the current Palestinian tragedy.

As to racist rants, refer to this link and the post by "Ashar" which demonstrates the racist attitudes of Israeli politicians at the highest levels of government.

http://newmatilda.com/2012/11/29/labor-matures-foreign-affairs

"Ethnic cleansing" has always been on the Zionist agenda. In the 1930s Western diplomats were appalled at the sinister expectation by some Zionist elements that the Palestinians would simply "disappear".
Posted by mac, Saturday, 1 December 2012 9:27:44 AM
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mac,

Hear, hear.

"You seem to be ignoring the history of the Zionist movement and its implications for the current Palestinian tragedy."

And the beat goes on...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-01/us-says-israeli-settlement-plans-counterproductive/4402412
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 1 December 2012 9:34:30 AM
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J Bowyer,
Your question was taken seriously and answers given seriously.

Now you have multiple answers to your Question, I have a question for you.

In light of your new found knowledge, Do you think my original post was dog whistling?

You see, sometimes some one eyed posters can read things in posts that are not there. So were my questions legitimate or was there some hidden code?
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 1 December 2012 10:51:06 AM
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Banjo my reference to dog whistling was not aimed at you.
You are aware I say as I think.
The theme of the thread is misleading, and I told you so.
I see you have put another meaning to it and except that.
Apart from your dislike of my contributions.
Now be honest, have you seen any post here, launch in to the ALP unfairly?
Because they voted with 2 3rds of the world?
No link can be made that says Labor is pro Palestinian.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 1 December 2012 11:05:18 AM
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Mac,
I know nothing of Zionist history but I do know that Israel has been under attack since its inception and had those people not been strong they would have been killed off by now. I further credit them with making a country from nothing, by hard work and enterprize.

Palestinians, on the other hand, have constantly engaged in terrorism so I do not hold much stock in their claims of human rights. They have always shown they care not for human rights.

I doubt the differences will ever be resolved because Palestine will not recognize Israels right to exist.

However I am more interested in the issue of why the Labor caucus changed its mind relating to the UN vote to upgrade Palistines position. You are certainly charitable in your view, I would say niave. I am far more cynical as nothing this government has done leads me to think they have any integrity. I also think it is worth noting that the politicians, epecially Labor, are taking notice of the Islamic influence.

Now I do not neccessary support the Liberals, but the present government is the worst ever, and the political reality is if we want to be rid of them, then the Liberals are the alternative.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 1 December 2012 11:37:52 AM
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Banjo

"I know nothing of Zionist history", actually if you knew anything about Zionist history, you'd understand why, on objective human rights criteria, the Palestinians deserve our support. The size of the Moslem community is irrelevant.

"However I am more interested in the issue of why the Labor caucus changed its mind relating to the UN vote..."

I'm really don't understand how you can make judgements in regard to the situation between Israel and the Palestinians while confessing ignorance of Zionist history and aims.
Unless you look at the history of the ME you'll always be searching for some alternative explanation for the shift in policy rather than moral repugnance at Israeli oppression.

Poirot,

I wonder how OLO's resident pro-Israel propagandists will "justify" that atrocity.
Posted by mac, Saturday, 1 December 2012 12:53:47 PM
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mac,

Yes, I wonder.

Here's a link put forward by WmTrevor in another thread - very useful for a quick overview of power plays in the middle-east over the millenia....5000 years of history in 90 seconds.

http://mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 1 December 2012 1:11:02 PM
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Thank you Banjo I now understand what I suspected. The insult/threat "dog whistle" is the usual attempt to smear and denigrate people who disagree with you and me. It is certainly bullying to use such a term.
Banjo I thought your original was fair and objective.
Two things, I think the Palestinians and Isralies are as bad as each other and Australia should stay well away as all we will get is trouble. I also think allowing Islamists who have shown no regard for our culture into Australia is madness. To think a man who insists his wife should be dressed in a burka whilst an Australian teenager would think it fine to walk down the shops in a bikini would then easily assimilate here is madness. Look at Europe and the Islamic oppression and murder and see what we have in store for us.
Posted by JBowyer, Saturday, 1 December 2012 5:17:38 PM
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Banjo -please ,mate NEVER charge ANYONE with having fixed views or being one eyed.
Islam and Labor, your thread your name for it.
Then you, mid thread, give another reason for posting the thread.
But continue to highlight a dislike of Islam, I share that with you, but look at the other posts, even after my last.
A great difference exists here, so here it is, GILLARD wanted to back America, THEY WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN DEFEATED.
Caucus, aware both sides, not just Muslims, must give ground.
Too that Israels current leader is a war mongerer.
Labor, foul thing we are, voted with 2 3rds of the world.
Every now and again, we should cut our own track, not follow America on our knees.
Afghanistan is a stand out reason we must not let our troops die for country,s that thieve more than half our aid.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 1 December 2012 5:54:37 PM
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sonofgloin wrote

>>My personal view is that Israel ...stop treating the Palestinians like Germany treated the Jews of Europe pre 1945.>>

Well of course if the Israelis did treat the Palestinians "like Germany treated the Jews of Europe pre 1945" there would be almost no Palestinians left.

Just a little reality check ;-)

Have a great rest of the weekend.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Saturday, 1 December 2012 10:54:23 PM
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"Just a little reality check :-)"

I detect a watering grin there, Steven.

Nothing to grin about as far as I'm concerned....the Palestinians have been marginalised and brutalised.

It's not by chance that the Gaza invasion brought to my mind a similar sadness to that I feel for the Jewish experience last century. I find it difficult to realise that a people once so cruelly treated could dish out a similar fate to others.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 1 December 2012 11:22:41 PM
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I don’t know Steven, I thought I gave a factual rendition of the situation while painting flaws and attributing faults to both sides as I see it. Palestine has Hezbollah and Israel has the Zionists, neither group in all probability represents the aspirations that the plebs have for peace, but they set the national agenda.
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 2 December 2012 12:06:06 AM
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Poirot, sonofgloin

LOL

As I've stated many times I do not enter into discussions on the rights and wrongs of Israel. Believe what you want.

But I do occasionally post reality checks and factual corrections.

In my previous post I merely pointed out that if the Israelis really did treat the Palestinians the way the Germans treated the Jews in Europe pre-1945 there would be almost no Palestinians left - well not in Gaza and the West Bank anyway which is where most Palestinians live. They'd be mostly dead - men, women and children.

I have nothing to add to that statement.

Great cycling weather here in Melbourne today so I'm off.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 2 December 2012 8:15:51 AM
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stevenmeyer

"Well of course if the Israelis did treat the Palestinians "like Germany treated the Jews of Europe pre 1945" there would be almost no Palestinians left."

Agree entirely, an extremely inappropriate analogy. A more appropriate one is to compare the creation of Israel with the British colonial invasion of Australia, unfortunately there's been no "Mabo" for the Palestinians and probably never will be.

Poirot, mom ami,

"I find it difficult to realise that a people once so cruelly treated could dish out a similar fate to others."

I don't, there are many historical examples of the oppressed becoming the oppressors, and Jews are no different from the rest of us, they have also committed a few atrocities themselves--see the "Kitos War". It's simply a matter of relative power.
Posted by mac, Sunday, 2 December 2012 8:49:14 AM
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Just to set the record straight, I support Israel over Palestinians, almost every time.
I remember Munich
I remember all those planes hijacked.
The Murders of defenseless prisoners, including that sick old lady in Idi Amins care.
I KNOW lies are the ak47 of this group of people.
I know they mostly hate us.
But i8n this matter, only the very lost think a scandal exists, that Labor has gone over to them.
Mark those few, know you must look else-ware for informed comment.
Know two, a two state solution is THE ONLY HOPE FOR PEACE.
Do not let us forget both sides need to compromise.
But too If Muslim extremists stop fighting there will be peace.
If Israel does there will be no Israel.
The very left is very blind, not at all interested in the life women and girls lead there.
But whiling to fight any ANTI American cause!
Thread has never approached evidence Labor acte3d any different that it should have
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 2 December 2012 9:07:53 AM
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Isn't it time that we all accepted that there is no solution to this problem.
You know, there ARE problems without a solution.
The jews were there before the Arabs, but no one ever took notice of
precedence in that or in any other dispute either.
These disputes are driven by survival.
Thats just the way it is, so live with it.

BTW, I remember reading that the present aborigines were not the first here.
They displaced an earlier migration, hmmm.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 2 December 2012 9:23:02 AM
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Bazz,

"....hmmmm"

Then there's this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-23/aboriginal-dna-dates-australian-arrival/2913010

I'll just reprise the 5000 years of ME imperial history.

http://mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

mac,

Right you are.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 2 December 2012 10:23:18 AM
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Bazz,
You've got the theory partly right but nobody says that one group "replaced" another, only that there were several races of people living here at the time of British colonisation, genocide is impossible, one group cannot wipe out another and leave no trace, it shows up in the MTDNA because the normal practice of ancient humans was to capture women and children from defeated groups and blend them into the tribe.
Poirot,
The out of Africa theory is anachronistic and motivated by religious and political ideology ie the "Garden Of Eden" , the more modern multiregional hypotheses proliferate because the evidence coming from places like Israel, Spain,Central Asia and China contradicts the "We're all Africans" propaganda.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/science/400000-year-old-human-remains-found-in-israel-48702.html
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 3 December 2012 6:14:19 AM
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Poirot,
No evidence means no evidence, there's no archaeological evidence of these paleoancient "complex" Aboriginal societies, just because there's no evidence of habitation in Europe in the same epoch means nothing, it's correct to say that modern humans "may" have lived on this continent for seven millennia just as they "may" have lived in Europe and Asia for 400,000 years
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 3 December 2012 6:27:40 AM
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Jay,

I'm surmising that you have an alternative theory as to the one that posits that we all originally came out of Africa?

If you have, I'd be fascinated to hear it.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 3 December 2012 9:17:00 AM
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Poirot,
Theories abound, I think we're up to five in the number of humanoids co existing on earth at the same time in the past, Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Floriensis and another as yet unnamed species from China.
Speculation on DNA "history" starts with the religious belief that humans arose only in Africa, the fabled garden of Eden, supporters of that doctrine even use the terms "Mitochondrial Eve" and "Y Adam".
Moving on, the studies done on Jewish DNA pretty much prove that they are exactly what they have always claimed to be, that is a highly endogamous federation of Middle Eastern tribes, in their case the DNA aligns with the archaeology so in the mind of a reasonable person it can be trusted, no?.
Can the same be said of the Palestinians? If DNA anaylsis is your standard for determining the rights of a people to a tract of land does a coincidence of genetics and archaeology prove their case?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 3 December 2012 11:28:52 AM
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JOM,
This tells me that we really need to heed the lessons of history but definitely not repeat them.
I have always wondered who the people were who did the rock paintings in Australia or those who built the massive structures found all over the world. There certainly can't be any descendants. Why else has everything stopped several thousand years ago ? Why are there no rock paintings in Australia which date from only a few years before the european invasion ? They're always purported to be several thousands of years old.
Perhaps they introduced a Carbon tax too ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 6 December 2012 7:07:43 AM
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Interesting that the Israel/Palestinian debate has evolved to a discussion of DNA and ancient ancestory.
Might I keep it on a practical level by pointing out that, right now, today, more than 50% of Palestinian children are suffering from illnesses directly relatied to nutrional deficiencies as a direct result of Israeli border control policies.
Likewise, Palestinians with cancer are dying because of the lack of chemo drugs.
Israeli border control is preventing the Palestinians from developing any kind of trade relationships with anyone other than Israel and that trade is set up to hugely disadvantage the Palestinians.
I push no ideological or religous barrow for either side, but I can't help feeling that the Palestinians have been pushed into a very tight corner.
And children shouldn't be made to suffer. By either side.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.a
Posted by Anthonyve, Saturday, 8 December 2012 10:02:17 AM
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Individual, there is a rock painting in WA showing a sailing ship.
Probably a Dutchman on his way to Batavia.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 9 December 2012 6:22:02 AM
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