Old Labor would regularly tear itself apart internally over social injustice, and the other clings to the existing powerbase regardless of the needs of their rank and file. The historical social ethic of the movement has gone. There is no thread of social justice directing policy in the now except for the previously mentioned UN protocols.

I can describe the platforms of old and new Labor thus. Old Labor followed a democratic-socialists agenda, new Labor a social-democratic agenda. One is about becoming capitalist and changing things from the top and one is about giving more to the masses and stuff the rich. In one the plebs are just a means to the end, and in the other the plebs are the end.

Gotta get Lawyers out of parliament, the bastards are too smart by half and because of that totally self serving.

Chris Lewis>> It is the Coalition's turn. I live in hope but I am hardly optimistic about the future<<

Chris there is a Richard Clapton song, Best Years of our Lives, that has a line in it that encapsulates my feelings.

>>Whatever happened to the days way back, when the world was safe

And it seemed worth saving,

We search for leaders on our hands and knees<<

“We search for leaders on our hands and knees”, just sums it up for me Chris.

Note well what Barry Jones said Belly."Labor must reject Oligarchy." Both the major parties and the Greens are controlled by large business interests.

The Coalition don't get it either.We need financial reform and a constitution that protects the people from the excesses of Govt.

I agree at least in part, with every post, bar the one that as usual is pure slander.
Ludwig, remember Aurthur Caldwell?
What ever knowledge he had was wasted after he opened his mouth, he never had a chance of victory.
You support a great man, one I am proud to be seen in a photo on my wall with, a STATESMAN.
Labors task is extremely harsh, self made that way.
It must convince the middle to return, have no doubt Gillard[most words Sonofglion said is true] hunted them away.
Bob is not now that man, he once was, ONLY Shorten or Rudd are todays men.
Back to the idea of reform, not the hypocritical lip service we are giving it.
Factions exist in every party.
Labors are not unusual.
Exist to keep us in the same paddock as majority voters.
Without the NSW right we would never have won a post ww2 election,I say that beleiving it totally.
Without the left, we would not be anchored, not in touch with our base,but never should they rule, that is death for the ALP.
Unfortunately center unity, the right, forgot its task, it was to keep us in power not them.
So what reforms? dump Gillard, keep every policy but take Doctor NOs boat refugee policy's,inform the greens if they play up we intend to call a DD election.
NEVER enter any agreement with the greens that is not our policy.
Restore the party to its membership, every third branch meeting open to people outside the party!~
Yes war but openness too.
Training in meeting construction/control/ and from welcoming new members to seeing every voice is heard, time limits eventual!
More later.

<< Both the major parties and the Greens are controlled by large business interests. >>

This is a critical point, Arjay. Labor and Liberal (and the Greens?) are far too highly influenced by vested-interest big-business.

One thing that has absolutely got to change is the donations regime, so that big businesses can’t give big donations, which are in effect big bribes to make things happen as they want them to.

Moves to make government as independent as possible from this enormous vested-interest pressure are all-important.

<< Bob is not now that man, he once was. >>

Why do you say this, Belly?

Shouldn’t the achievement of a sustainable society be of the utmost importance? Shouldn’t Labor be doing this, instead of taking us in exactly the opposite direction? And who is there better to lead Labor in this endeavour than Carr…. or Thomson?

<< ONLY Shorten or Rudd are todays men >>

That’s it, is it? It’s got to be one of them, you reckon. Well in that case it will be Shorten…. because Rudd has totally dudded out! He's a totally cooked goose….. of his own making.

Crikey, Rudd is surely the LAST person you should be considering!

So, what has Shorten got going for him??

I haven’t seen anything at all of any note.