http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/old-ideas-key-to-labors-future-20120811-2414m.html
I liked the posted link, it seems solid and honest, I share its views.
But is it over?
The joy and glee of Kevin 07 crumbled long ago.
Turning to I do not like/trust Julia.
And why would such as me, a life time unionist, lover of my union, support getting unions out of controlling the party we started.
On the birth of a child we love and Cherish, teach it point it in what we think is the right direction.
But there comes a time, we must let it live it sown life.
How extraordinary it is when we see a middle aged child still under mum and dads control.
I have seen it, who of us knew, heard saw Rudd's controlling nature before his knifing.
The truth is the ALP did not tell us, we heard of his bad temper on RAAF flights and not much more.
Yet they dumped him, over night.
And told us his polling was too bad.
Those who knifed him? my beloved unions!
Representing 22% of workers!
Now on the edge of what?
We went in to the 2007 election scared by the thought we could not manage the economy.
And face the thought next time we can manage nothing.
We talk/know of a defeat to come so harsh it is 1975 /NSW/QLD rolled together.
As we fall our members fall, maybe forever.
Yet tomorrow, if we ignore the power brokers, install a new power broker, the only one we need, our followers?
Against Tony Abbott, against fear lies and the word NO, we can win.
The first poll post Gillard post power brokers saying the party is theirs, we would be 6 points up!

I don’t get it Belly.

Why is no one thinking about this in the same way that I am?

My often-expressed very strong suggestions of how Labor can recover have just gained no traction at all.

There’s not a hint of them in the article to which you refer us, nor was there in Barry Jones’ speech as mentioned in the article.

No one on OLO really agrees or disagrees…. there’s just disinterest!

What on earth gives?

A Carr-Thomson Labor party, focussing on a sustainable future, in which they very carefully sort out the types of growth we need and the types that are dragging us down, is the essential basic framework.

It’s a damn pity that Barry Jones can’t see this, and is concentrating on the structure of the party and its unions-ahead-of-voters priority.

focussing on a sustainable future,
Ludwig,
How on Earth can we hope Labor, sorry ALP, expect to manage sustainability when they can't even manage with growth ?
Until such time that the ALP reverts to being Labor by getting rid of the deadwood academics in its ranks it will not recover. The Law of averages sees to that.

<< How on Earth can we hope Labor, sorry ALP, expect to manage sustainability when they can't even manage with growth ? >>

Indi, we can’t!

The key to achieving a sustainable future IS the management of growth. Of course Labor can’t manage with the growth we currently have, because it is so utterly the wrong sort of growth. I refer primarily to the absurdity of extremely high immigration.

It shouldn’t be hard for them to realise this. Now, if Barry Jones would just come out and say as much, it would certainly help Labor get it through their collective thick heads that this really is the key point to the development of a new future direction, and to the winning back of the hearts and minds of the Australian populace.

<< …getting rid of the deadwood academics in its ranks… >>

Really? I didn’t think they had a single person in their ranks smart enough to be called an academic!! Oh, except Bob Carr and Kelvin Thomson of course!

To whom do you refer as ‘deadwood academics’?

Barry Jones??

The problems Australia and the world face are hardly likley to addressed by either the ALP or coalition, at least based on recent trends. The brief time of history (since early 1980s) our problems were masked by a greater reliance on debt are over, although the govts of the world appear intent on more printing money madness for a while.

As for the ALP, they had their turn, but they are proving not up to it. There is considerable pain now, even in these supposed boom times.

It is the Coalition's turn. I live in hope but I am hardly optimistic about the future

Belly in all the dirt I have flung at this Rudd/Gillard government I am sure you have noted that I have never union bashed. I have pilloried the bastards of the HSU, but that is about it.

I have however mentioned the number of LAWYERS in the Labor party in comparison to a generation ago. This from last year’s press:

>> Julia Gillard has appointed Bernard Murphy as a judge of the Federal Court of Australia. When the $1 million fraud and theft of the AWU hit the fan in 1995 Ms Gillard and Mr Murphy both left Slater and Gordon lawyers around the same time as Ms Gillard’s boyfriend Bruce Wilson left the AWU for his part in the fraud and theft.
Before we get started, in all fairness to Julia Gillard, she is not the first Prime Minister to corrupt the judiciary by appointing her mates as judicial officers. But to my knowledge none have ever appointed their former boss and mentor as a judge.<<

Gillard is a Lawyer first an International Fabian second and an Australian Laborite third. Gillard’s comment in regard to NOT giving the pensioners a pay rise “because they do not vote for us” encapsulates the vast chasm in ideological dogma between old Labor and new Labor. One built their platforms on positive social reforms for the defenseless and the other focuses ENTIRELY on self preservation, and the only social agenda they carry is the adoption of UN global social engineering protocols

Old Labor would regularly tear itself apart internally over social injustice, and the other clings to the existing powerbase regardless of the needs of their rank and file. The historical social ethic of the movement has gone. There is no thread of social justice directing policy in the now except for the previously mentioned UN protocols.

I can describe the platforms of old and new Labor thus. Old Labor followed a democratic-socialists agenda, new Labor a social-democratic agenda. One is about becoming capitalist and changing things from the top and one is about giving more to the masses and stuff the rich. In one the plebs are just a means to the end, and in the other the plebs are the end.

Gotta get Lawyers out of parliament, the bastards are too smart by half and because of that totally self serving.

Chris Lewis>> It is the Coalition's turn. I live in hope but I am hardly optimistic about the future<<

Chris there is a Richard Clapton song, Best Years of our Lives, that has a line in it that encapsulates my feelings.

>>Whatever happened to the days way back, when the world was safe

And it seemed worth saving,

We search for leaders on our hands and knees<<

“We search for leaders on our hands and knees”, just sums it up for me Chris.

Note well what Barry Jones said Belly."Labor must reject Oligarchy." Both the major parties and the Greens are controlled by large business interests.

The Coalition don't get it either.We need financial reform and a constitution that protects the people from the excesses of Govt.

I agree at least in part, with every post, bar the one that as usual is pure slander.
Ludwig, remember Aurthur Caldwell?
What ever knowledge he had was wasted after he opened his mouth, he never had a chance of victory.
You support a great man, one I am proud to be seen in a photo on my wall with, a STATESMAN.
Labors task is extremely harsh, self made that way.
It must convince the middle to return, have no doubt Gillard[most words Sonofglion said is true] hunted them away.
Bob is not now that man, he once was, ONLY Shorten or Rudd are todays men.
Back to the idea of reform, not the hypocritical lip service we are giving it.
Factions exist in every party.
Labors are not unusual.
Exist to keep us in the same paddock as majority voters.
Without the NSW right we would never have won a post ww2 election,I say that beleiving it totally.
Without the left, we would not be anchored, not in touch with our base,but never should they rule, that is death for the ALP.
Unfortunately center unity, the right, forgot its task, it was to keep us in power not them.
So what reforms? dump Gillard, keep every policy but take Doctor NOs boat refugee policy's,inform the greens if they play up we intend to call a DD election.
NEVER enter any agreement with the greens that is not our policy.
Restore the party to its membership, every third branch meeting open to people outside the party!~
Yes war but openness too.
Training in meeting construction/control/ and from welcoming new members to seeing every voice is heard, time limits eventual!
More later.

<< Both the major parties and the Greens are controlled by large business interests. >>

This is a critical point, Arjay. Labor and Liberal (and the Greens?) are far too highly influenced by vested-interest big-business.

One thing that has absolutely got to change is the donations regime, so that big businesses can’t give big donations, which are in effect big bribes to make things happen as they want them to.

Moves to make government as independent as possible from this enormous vested-interest pressure are all-important.

<< Bob is not now that man, he once was. >>

Why do you say this, Belly?

Shouldn’t the achievement of a sustainable society be of the utmost importance? Shouldn’t Labor be doing this, instead of taking us in exactly the opposite direction? And who is there better to lead Labor in this endeavour than Carr…. or Thomson?

<< ONLY Shorten or Rudd are todays men >>

That’s it, is it? It’s got to be one of them, you reckon. Well in that case it will be Shorten…. because Rudd has totally dudded out! He's a totally cooked goose….. of his own making.

Crikey, Rudd is surely the LAST person you should be considering!

So, what has Shorten got going for him??

I haven’t seen anything at all of any note.

Ludwig not so!
In fact a return to Rudd now,and Shorten next, fixes the ALP.
Little known truth Kevin Rudd wants an ALP that is not controlled by? union power brokers such as? Bill Shorten.
Bill is a Brilliant man, one the party in time, Must turn to, at the right time.
Not now, not enough time exists for the task ahead, your view of Rudd, is not shared by all, his installation is an instant coffee fix to polling.
We you and I want population limits.
We are but two small frogs, in a pond packed with them, all with a different view.
EVERY party, driven by commercial interests, chases growth, wealth creation, jobs, growth at any costs, including population.
No party can be elected if it insists on planet /country before profit, yet.
Carr wins your support because he, like us, understands we head for trouble, his anti big city's stuff is legendary, and right, but not shared.
This week the war begins, a day,maybe this week, will come that unmasks Abbott, leading to his fall.
Labor has one problem, that is not it policy's,they are great!NDIS!
NBN! Carbon tax, who else but our only reformist party.
But Gillard?
While she and her self interested knife wheedlers wander the Parliament Labor will not be forgiven.

<< In fact a return to Rudd now,and Shorten next, fixes the ALP >>

I couldn’t disagree more, Belly!

And even if it was so, what about the country??

Rudd is just so totally anitsustainability short-term-oriented. Remember it was he who boosted immigration to a new record level, ncreasing Howard's long term record level, as soon as he got into power, without a mention of any such thing in the election campaign or the copious television appearances he did in the year or so before that.

We absolutely don’t need someone who will just promulgate the same old growth-is-the-answer-to-everything doctrine, no matter what sort of growth it is or what downsides it has.

The management of growth is critical to our future. And by all accounts, Rudd has no idea at all of how to do this.

And Shorten is of just the same ilk.

<< No party can be elected if it insists on planet /country before profit, yet. >>

Interesting comment. So you are saying that Labor does indeed put profits first, ahead of planet, country, quality of life, environment and everything else?

You’re not far wrong. And therein lies the greatest discontent with the Australian people for the current Labor government, and for the Labor party overall, and for the opposition!

So we DESPERATELY need to break away from this. And Carr is just the person to lead such a revolt!

Not all labour politicians are corrupt but labour seems to attract more than its share of pollies with their nose in the trough. Most of the recent New South Wales labour government were on a feeding frenzy (Palazano, Macdonald, Demore, Obeid, Roozendaal, Tripodi etc.)
There are a lot of unanswered questions about Gillard and Bruce Wilson (Wilson is a reputed shyster). Craig Thomson probably typifies the problem in that he comes from a union background where there are free sandwiches for all and he carries that culture with him into the political arena. This culture becomes much more serious when the players have a legal background and it takes on more expensive tastes and becomes shrouded in the cotton wool of our legal system

Ludwig,
If you lived in NSW you would not hold your view of Bob Carr. He just got out in time, before the Labor problems became exposed. Not popular here.

Belly,
I see more dark days ahead for you.

Can a lid be kept on this Gillard/AWU issue much longer?

Then there is an ICAC investigation into the activities of some former NSW Labor politicians.

Then there is the NBN financial blow outs to be added to the already 50 plus labor stuff ups.

How long before those with disabilities see that they are being conned into believing there will be a scheme set up to benefit them? At present there is no substance to anything and no way of financing it. Another Labor 'pie in the sky' scheme?

<< Ludwig, If you lived in NSW you would not hold your view of Bob Carr. He just got out in time, before the Labor problems became exposed. Not popular here. >>

Granted, Banjo.

But is there any such thing as an ex-premier who was popular… anywhere in the country, over the last couple of decades?

He was always talking about population growth, especially the growth of Sydney, right from the start of his long tenure as premier, and indeed for many years before that.

His conviction pertaining to population stabilisation and hence the core issues of sustainability are rock solid. This is what makes him the only real choice for Labor leader, apart from Kelvin Thomson, if they are to reinvent themselves in the manner that will win them support and be right for the country’s future.

Banjo, what do you think of Kelvin Thomson? If we are to have someone with no baggage as the new Labor leader, then he’s da man, yes?

Ludwig! mate! do not let your anger hide this truth in my words, you and I think differently than most.
MOST are driven not by sustainability, not by understanding growth is not always good.
Most want the home and land prices to rise, they hear as they did today, Australia, needs 800.000 new skilled workers!
They dream of new towns, roads city's, they do not share, yet, our views .
Yes folks NSW is tainted by its past, one I first spoke of when it was the present.
Now the AWU scandal? from the 1990,s? are you ,those who have just heard about it, sure the idiotic Gillard had ANYTHING to do with it?
And let us be honest, yes Labor has its criminals, I have been talking of them for over half a decade.
Can you tell me who left politics on Liberal/National side after scandals looked to be close to the white wash falling away.
Reith, the man who last held Oakshots seat, want to go on.
Today my party will start the removal of Gillard or abandon its grass roots.

Ludwig,
I agree with you about Kelvin Thompson, he seems to have the right philosphy about population.

Carr spoke about population, yes but I think it was only in relation to the impact it was having on Sydney. To him Penrith was traveling to the West.

I dunno about popular former premiers, I felt sorry for Kristine Kennealy as I thought she was only made premier, by the powers that be, to try and gain the 'womens vote' to prop up a failing government.

In different circumstances, she may have been alright but the cast was set before she got the office.

Belly, I know you basically agree with me about population and sustainability. But that makes it all the stranger as to why you would support the likes of Rudd, or anyone that will just continue with the same old Labor worship of all growth and anything that can possibly be described as growth or help contribute to it!

<< MOST are driven not by sustainability, not by understanding growth is not always good. >>

Yes, but if they started hearing the right sort of message from our government, or opposition, they’d soon understand just how important a sustainable future is, and that it is not a matter sustainability versus current standard of living, it is a matter of protecting a half-decent standard of living, in the face of enormous looming threats to it.

I’d say that a very large portion of our populace is very concerned about the future and will warm very well to a political party that starts espousing some real ideas about how to best cope with it.

Who out there really thinks that our government or opposition is actually taking us in the right direction at the moment?

I bet there aren’t too many at all.

There is a lot of simmering discontent about our immigration rate. So I’d reckon that whichever party espoused a big cut in immigration would gain a great deal of support straight away.

Under a Carr/Thomson leadership team, that first big step would be bound to win them massive support and put them on a very good footing for taking forth a holistic sustainability strategy.

Banjo, that lady, and she knew it, was a tool of Labors worst.
Ludwig, sorry bloke,you have a blind spot. the truth is both party's, no matter what they say, want a big Australia.
Further, even if , and it will, it brings great harm, most want it too, greed beats common sense hands down, for now.
So in my view, you target Rudd, for thinking as nine tenths of this country CURRENTLY DOES.
An election is won on self interest/leaders personalty/women liking his face/men not liking female leaders.
RATIONALITY is about last.
Saw Gillard today, press interview,her normal self confident band master directing who would ask next question.
It was close!tripped over a chair trying to turn her off!
Made it! rolled under a table and fired the remote, got it done!

So did anyone read V.G Childe's "How Labour Governs" as cited in the OP?
I've read the introduction and the first three chapters, I've run across his views in another context, as a Stalinist his ideas about the development of European society were not only coloured by his politics but flat out wrong, however this is an interesting piece, or "artifact":
http://www.marxists.org/archive/childe/how-labor-governs/index.htm

<< …the truth is both party's, no matter what they say, want a big Australia >>

I’m not so sure about that, Belly.

Gillard was presumably being entirely honest when she came out against Rudd’s ‘Big Australia’ rhetoric, as soon as she became PM.

My guess is that there are plenty of good people within the party who don’t like the idea at all, but are unable to speak out for fear of running afoul of their colleagues.

Of course, Labor is intimately close to big business, and it is they who want a big Australia…. and have the power over the party to make them tow their line.

I admire Kelvin Thomson for very openly expressing views that run counter to the notion of a big Australia or continuous rapid growth.

It is very interesting that he has been allowed to do this at all, let alone frequently and in detail, for a number of years now.

The message I take from this is that Labor wants Thomson’s message to get out there and actually wants to move towards his suggested low-immigration stable-population ideals…. but is just totally unable to do so because of the stranglehold the big-donations big-business sector has on them.

continued

Belly, it is so totally the time for a major change!

You can see the need for it, but you say that the time is not right.

Believe me, it is, absolutely. For two reasons:

1. We can’t go on being grossly antisustainable. The longer we do it, the more of a crisis we will run into and the harder it will be to implement policies to try and pull out of it.

2. And very importantly, LABOR NEEDS TO REINVENT ITSELF NOW!! It is going down big-time if it doesn’t. So it has all the motivation in the world to do this!

Hey, just today, Labor has ‘compromised’ on asylum seeker policy very considerably. So it can go against prior doctrine if it really wants to. It CAN change. It is not the completely unmovable dinosaur that it often appears to be.

And remember who it was that stuffed up asylum seeker policy so critically badly. Yes, one K Rudd!

If he were to become Labor leader again, you could say goodbye to any sort of sustainability platform coming out of Labor, at least for another year or so until the party becomes thoroughly sick of its new old reinvented leader and dumps him midstream a second time!! !!

<< Made it! rolled under a table and fired the remote, got it done! >>

Haaahahaha! ( :>)

Ludwig we can pass this between us for years, it will change nothing.
Environment is about third on most wish lists.
And you over look Liberals, I promise, are a growth for growth sake party too.
I actually chuckle at the thought Labor alone is close to big business!
IF they ever get as close as the other side it will stun me.
Fact is see anti mining tax, big business runs this country and both party's.
A small issue, EVERY POLL,this and last year,tells us Rudd is more popular than Gillard and Abbott together.
I would be prepared to bet Rudd would defeat Abbott by panels of fencing.
Marxism! strike a lite! one side says we are Liberals the other extreme says we are? insane!

Not trying to be funny, just honestly being me.
Parliament sits today,will watch question time.
ABC news 24 on in the back ground.
Read the press,gee near lies there! Labor backs down?
Any chance we get to review the lies Morrison is uttering?
Gillard,I can not longer stand the woman!
Teeth hurt second she appears!
But force myself to watch.
GREENS! are we looking? a party of reform? NEVER!
Of all the junk that has come from this issue the Greens sit on the foulest!
Do nothing!
IF I know any thing about this subject, the greens are dieing, at the hands of two women who damage the thought, for half a century, women can lead in politics.

<< And you over look Liberals, I promise, are a growth for growth sake party too. >>

Belly, if I’ve said it once I’ve said a thousand times on OLO – the Libs are just as bad. I collectively call them the Liblabs, or the Laborials or two peas in a pod!

They are virtually identical.

We’ve debated that particular point. You have said that Labor IS significantly different. I don’t think so at all.

So it is all the more reason for Labor to change, because a Liberal government is absolutely just going to continue with the same old worship of growth.

<< Any chance we get to review the lies Morrison is uttering? >>

What lies are these, Belly?

I think Morrison is one of the more intelligent and better performers in the Lib camp.

i know what you mean belly[re julia somehow...striking a discord everytime she speaks..but she is more than that for me..she is both [yes i know.i never said it re males...but she comes across as trying too hard..almost mutton dressed as lamb..

lawyer..able to work..but only under instruction
all left brain..no right brain..[no imagination..really the perfect leader..but listening to the wrong instuction...

the usual tricks..wont work for her[like howard was hated..despised..but somehow at election time..revealed a vision..by manipulating events[yes juliar will do the same..;as orded...and please dont complain re the juliar thing..i wrote especially for you in your term

but mine is my summation
thanks for reminding me of parlement siting
if the polls indicate anything..is who ever wins..will need to be able to negotiate.../with believeable promises.../some things being FIXED in stone

not like the lie of no carbon tax in any govt i lead
we dont want tony..but prefer him being truthfull..than the lie.

julier is a robot..KNOWS how to deeliver her brief
but because she has no belief of her own..wont win..[not the same as not loosing.

the more i hear of car..who could..plus be good
but he is in the growth camp..thats that step too far for me
and ya mate..great speaker..but likely too sold on peer opinion..no own thought.

thats why BOTH parties pick lawyers
they know how to follow the brief

yes men
yes woman
glory hounds loving the kindness crumbs/of their peer overlords
not serving the unwashed/feeble..but ever seeking better ways to put the cosrts back onto the people..never big business..they instruct lawyers.

lawyers deliver*
want to get al capone..use the lawyers trap/the tax act*
toney isnt phonie..he talks to anyone..unlike juliar..who isnt..

Labor can win the next election. Labor got an amazing break through yesterday, not unexpected. Abbott will have to retire another argument.
He has everything in the same basket, with nothing new, and battling a 70 billion black hole.
If labour allows business to trade european carbon credits, Abbott won't have any argument left.

'Labor got an amazing break through yesterday, not unexpected' Yes 579 causing 1000 deaths and now having to swallow humble pie is about the only break through Labour has achieved. Maybe if they now change their minds about the idiotic carbon tax and take on another Liberal policy they might crawl back into contention as their are alot of naive and silly people out there. This is the open and accountable Government that Oakshott and Windsor has prostituted themselves to. They to are responsible for the deaths of those drowning while trying to come here illegally (at least before invited by Rudd/Gillard).

OUG YES, Ludwig I take the opposite view on Morrison, if you wish to know if he is lieing watch his lips, if they move he is.
579 not a chance with JG!
Other post best ignored.
Question time gave the most telling reason Gillard must go.
Tens of them, reasons exist, but after Abbott actions today not being able to beat him stands out.
Labor once said she had his measure, must have been waist or such, she leaves time and again chances to out box him on the floor.
Chuffed at the temporary single green in the lower house, he reacted as his party does, Ostrich like head in the sand, enjoyed it.

Belly, I read the article and it just confirms what I have been saying all along. A few questionable characters like Williamson have been running the ALP and its not good for the country, just good for
their unions and careers.

Forget Rudd, everyone else has. What we have seen once again, is that the ALP is good for a few union mates, but certainly bad for farmers and many other Australians.

Belly, you wrote a few posts back:

<< Any chance we get to review the lies Morrison is uttering? >>

I asked:

< What lies are these…? >

You responded:

<< Ludwig I take the opposite view on Morrison, if you wish to know if he is lieing watch his lips, if they move he is. >>

I’ve got to say that I’m a bit taken aback by this comment:

If we are to label someone as a liar, we’d want to have a pretty convincing example or two.

Gotta go, Scott Morrison is on the 7.30 Report.

Having just seen Morrison’s 7.30 Report interview, my well-developed view of him has been strengthened. I think that he is one of the most forthright, intelligent, articulate and sincere politicians of our time, and has surely got to be a good candidate for Lib leader at some point down the track.

Ludwig wrote: "Of course Labor can’t manage with the growth we currently have, because it is so utterly the wrong sort of growth. I refer primarily to the absurdity of extremely high immigration."

As journalist Crispin Hull has noted, Labor state governments in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria were all ousted because they could not keep up with immigration-driven population growth.

Crispin:

"Most of the Premiers most of the time whinge that the Feds do not provide enough money. With perhaps the exception of then NSW Premier Bob Carr, rarely did they point to the real problem – keeping up with the pace of population growth.

During the “big Australia” debate, Australia’s population growth was around two per cent. It ate up all the increase in GDP so Australia was really in recession, even though the economists and politicians could deny it.

Worse, it required Australia to double its infrastructure effort – two per cent a year to replace the wearing out of what he have got (most of it having an average lifespan of about 50 years) and a further 2 per cent to deal with the extra two per cent extra population.

State Governments were overwhelmed and fell behind. The stresses on existing infrastructure became palpable – transport, schools, hospitals, roads and so on.

Food prices have gone up as market gardens have been pushed further from city centres.

Voters may not have made the link, but they turfed out governments which could not deliver."

http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2012/04/22/state-govts-ousted-because-they-just-cannot-keep-up/

Yabby I can not disagree with your post,almost every word of it.
You have seen me, a member and activist of the ALP, warn that TRUE REFORM is needed.
You know I am also a unionist/ex official,but as just that it is time!
Time to look back at why both movements formed, no suits and high incomes there.
Just sweaty singlets and work cloths.
We at first lived on dreams and very little else.
Even in the victory of Kevin 07 we still looked like that party.
But increasingly, power brokers, strange way, after seeing their actions, to spell children of unwed parents!
First hid Rudd's faults, then used them,to have their take over of my party and turn it to their property.
I stand tall, proud of our policy's.
But just as we got it wrong, very wrong on boat refugees, we did so armed with ALP wish to be kinder.
And that was wrong.
Abbott who cares little for people, took our blunder and used it and used it.
We,as yesterday showed in Parliament, had only yet another mistake, Gillard to defend us.
I stand at the bottom of a tree, with my party's followers, watching those power brokers plan for my party's defeat, rather than say, what Gillard would not yesterday, we got it wrong.
Australia has not forgotten Rudd.
His support for an ALP free of union control bought him down, nothing else
continued.

Now for Ludwig, mate forgive me, we can not look at the world via the others eyes.
Morrison? the following views are ones I hold, in honest belief, not a taunt.
He has claimed the report is a support for turning the boats back, not true he knows it.
He claims it rejected Malaysia, untrue he knows it.
He says it is an endorsement of his policy's, untrue.
To link Labors fall in those states to population is, no matter who claims it, wrong.
I again and again point to cultural enclaves in our city's,how wrong they are.
But Labor, in NSW and QLD, won one election too many.
NSW in festered by thieves/fools/and filth fell apart at the first sight of leadership on the other side.
Yet Labor, if it acts to replace Gillard,is far from dead.
I again ask those on the other side,to be as honest in reviewing their team as I am with mine.
Look to NSW/QLD and see both their future and ours.
A plaintive call, one I have made many times,and never seen it answered.
But look at the policy's of Abbott, truly look.

Thanks drab. Yes I think Crispin Hull is absolutely right.

Belly, I can’t imagine that your examples are realistic if seen with accurate wording and context, given that every time I hear Scott Morrison speak, I agree with everything or almost everything he says.

He said just one thing last night on the 7.30 Report that I didn’t quite agree with – he is not willing to blame any politicians for the deaths at sea. For making dumb policy decisions, yes, but not for the deaths that resulted from it.

Well, I think that Gillard and Rudd, and all those in Labor that have filibustered while boats headed our way in increasing numbers DO indeed have blood on their hands.

<< To link Labors fall in those states to population is, no matter who claims it, wrong. >>

Ahh, but it isn’t, as drab pointed with the article by Crispin Hull.

We will just have to differ here Ludwig.
I did not make up my changes against the bloke.
He and others in his party used the claims/untruths I set out.
At some future point much like that, a near daily offense, being put forward by some in Abbott's tent, will come home to hurt them.
I think my own party detractors should answer a question for me.
Does any one, knowing the dislike/distrust building against Gillard think she can ever win an election?
If as a majority of Australians would say, the answer is no, why stick with her?

<< Does any one, knowing the dislike/distrust building against Gillard think she can ever win an election? >>

Yes Belly. I think she can win an election. If she just sees fit to make some fundamental policy changes of the sort that I have repeatedly mentioned and starts really eating big gobs of humble pie about how wrong Labor has been, then yes, she can win.

Afterall, there is only slightly less discontent out there with Abbott than there is with Gillard!

As I keep saying; it is much more about policies than leadership!

<< If as a majority of Australians would say, the answer is no, why stick with her? >>

Yeah, why stick with her when Labor has two most excellent alternative leaders in Carr and Thomson?

But if those two are going to remain beyond consideration, then yes Labor should stick with her… because there ain’t no one else that is any better!!

Ludwig I regard you as a mate, here however in this thread on this subject we differ.
In truth the thread and our discussion here, highlights humanity and our differences.
By just reading, and understanding our posts, one can see the guts of how people think differently.
You and For that matter I think often a like, but so differently here, we can not agree, and that is probably forever on this subject.
Here are my thoughts.
Labor can not regain the days of Rudd's peak polling, or win an election under Gillard.
She however is about to prosper! in much the same way as Tony Abbott has, because Abbott is getting close to being held to account.
You talk of leadership of my party, and policy changes, that in my view, the party would not consider, the public would not except, and would reduce Labor polling not increase it.
Greed rules along side of self interest, A time will come that your wish will be heard, we both will be dead by then.
How ever,soon very soon climate change will be seen as in part man made,Abbott will be held to account.
So too will the true impact of Carbon tax on its way to open market trading in it, will be seen as no back breaker, Abbott by then will wish he could hide.
The only thing propping these two third grade leaders up? each other!
Ludwig, the ALP knows people vote for the strangest reasons, the thought/plan to rebuild Gillard just before an election on Abbott's bones insults Australian voters, they are not that DUMB.

Yes Belly, we’ll obviously have to agree to strongly disagree here.

It is a good discussion though, and may it continue for some time yet.

<< Labor can not regain the days of Rudd's peak polling, or win an election under Gillard.
She however is about to prosper! >>

Not sure I understand. Gillard is about to prosper? How can she prosper without Labor also prospering? If she is to truly prosper, then she should be able to win the next election, yes?

In view, there really is massive discontent with Abbott. So if Gillard was to really ‘prosper’, she could indeed win the next election.

Of course, it is my strong view that if Labor replaced Gillard with Carr or Thomson, they’d have a much better chance of prospering.

Ludwig in asking that question you uncover my greatest fear.
I firmly, think our country deserves better than our two leaders.
And that my party, damaged not by policy failure but internal bickering, deserves much better than Gillard.
I truly, see the leadership bobbing up and down as one then the other, is marginally worse than the other.
I FEAR my party will mistake Abbott's impending fall, as a Gillard rise.
Does that explain it?
Great hurt has been inflicted on those who worked so hard to remove Howard.
No sweeping that under the carpet, had Gillard, just once, said gee I got it wrong!
Like the Fonz in that TV show she can not.
If asked, I would state clearly no reform is possible for my party until Gillard is gone.
Post an election loss the post Morton will be saying the things I have been.
I fear too my predictions of change for both leaders may be nearer Christmas.
WEIRD? yes but poor polling is best right now for my party's well being.

<< I firmly, think our country deserves better than our two leaders. >>

By crikey yes!!

We deserve better than those two parties…. unless they change…evolve….adapt to the new world reality…embrace a sustainable society.

If one changes and is successful, the other will move in the same direction as well.

But the Libs have got no reason to do so, because they are set to win the next election as they are.

Now wouldn’t it be great if Labor realised their predicament, saw the hopelessness in continuing with Gdillard or re-erecting Rdudd or installing Shortarse … er um… Shorten and had heard through the grapevine that Ludwig over there on OLO has been espousing the perfect solution to all their woes!

And then they did it! By Christmas. Put Carr in as leader with Thomson as his deputy, or vice-versa.

Then they’d be set…. and the Libs would be all at sea!!

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/liberal-ministers-on-preselection-hit-list-20120816-24bje.html
My link in my view, is evidence the libs are far from perfect.
Ludwig you bring a grin to my face often.
Yesterday was about 60 hours long for me.
Had car in for repairs and a long way from home.
So had to spend 8 hours waiting for it.
Old mates/union members and ALP members found me.
Seems the party forgets us, or is hiding the truth from us.
Very clear Gillard has lost base support.
But is she, or others, threatening to walk away if her head rolls?
REFORM in both party's must come!
My link seems to show SOME Liberals rushing to become Conservatives.
And evidence seems to show reform no longer an ALP consideration.
Yet every chance exists, both party's will be forced to reform.
Or face the flaking off of such as the dead Democrats and lost greens as the base flee being used .

<< REFORM in both party's must come! >>

Absolutely!

And it is about time people started thinking long and hard about what those reforms should be, instead of concentrating on who should be leader.

You see Belly, what I am proposing surely deserves a great deal of consideration, and if people don’t like it, then alternatives should be put up. But instead what I’m seeing on OLO is pretty rank disinterest in policy development, and a whole lot of debate about the personalities, presentation and perceived (or real) falsehoods uttered by both leaders.

This is not what we need as a country and not what either major party needs.

<< Yet every chance exists, both party's will be forced to reform. >>

Well I would think that right now Labor should be feeling a great compulsion to reform. The current situation of them going down big-time at the next election should surely force them into major reform.

Ludwig reform is no new thought for me.
I in fact have called for it for over half my life.
See my thoughts re your small Australia policy, even if I support it,and I do, finds trouble in my understanding voters do not, yet agree.
So we do not talk reform? well many pro and con any party posts knowing or not, are calls for reform.
At my birth this country had a Liberal party about to Begin 23 years of power.
A very different party the Carry's that name today.
It too had a Labor party, as it always has been with many different views.
From out right Communist, Socialist, certainly few, who would understand todays party, occupying the once Liberal territory.
Yet leaders matter.
Right now, believe me,some men will not vote for Gillard, SOME will not vote for the soon to be replaced Abbott, yet in both cases usually vote only for that party.
Reform?
Let others concern them selves with the tea party/Conservative/Liberals and their cattle dog the Nationals.
Labor learning from the boat refugees , should review all Social welfare, lets not pretend no waste exists.
Stop privatizations and put contracted management not public servants in to state[as they win them back] and federal utilities.
Give the out door work to those in the surrounding towns.
Review all public service jobs, restore and demand accountability and work outcomes duly measured.
End union domination of the party,if they want to control let them go to meetings.
Open the meetings, to other than branch owners.
Two meetings in every branch, to be open forum every year, let out siders tell us what they want think.
Over all in my view we need to remember true believers never elect government it is those opposite we need to get to win.
And reform constantly so, is a must .

Well the cat is out of my bag,I do not think the ALP is dead and not dying either.
My complaints,at some time in the future, will be seen as an expression of unhappiness as the machine trys to slow change and remove the memberships struggle to be heard.
But it will be so.
Nothing can stall change once this few, lead the party over the cliff.
And that may have already taken place.
I have faith in the young, those half my age and those not yet a third of the way there.
I taunt, openly and with passion, Lawyers and the suits.
But too know we need some.
We too need ordinary working class men and women, but picked, both sex's, on ability not sex.
Look to our left,see the greens, a party dieing under the weight of the wrong women for the job.
See the wasted Senate power, a power that will be fleeting, at its peak now, wasted in not giving in order to take.
More refugees for giving,now lost on a sinking Island of their own making.
Greens, like the ALP and Liberals with National Fido following loyally behind,all should get closer and learn from voters.

<< See my thoughts re your small Australia policy, even if I support it,and I do, finds trouble in my understanding voters do not, yet agree. >>

Belly, this appears to be our main point of disagreement.

I think that the Australian populace is well and truly ready for a party that comes out and espouses the achievement of a sustainable society as their fundamental platform.

This message, and that of a stable population, has come of age. Just look at the amount of support Dick Smith has received, and Kelvin Thomson, and in deed Bob Carr. There is also Ian Lowe, head of the Australian Conservation Foundation, John Coulter, former leader of the Democrats and quite a few others who are saying much the same thing. Then there is David Attenborough as the most influential non-Australian who has added a lot of clout to the arguments.

The media love this stuff these days. No longer is it taboo subject matter.

So if Labor was to get stuck into pushing the message which, in line with views of Sustainable Population Australia, ACF and various other organisations, and if it was to come from the two very knowledgeable and long-standing advocates of this stuff that it has within its ranks, then how could they lose??

They certainly wouldn’t do worse than they currently are. And they would surely do vastly better.

I reckon most voters would agree, once they understood that Labor was being genuine, was in line with other organisations that have been espousing this stuff for a long time, and was not going to be run off the rails by big business or mad continuous-growth-pushing pseudoeconomists!

That might take a while, as the level of trust for politicians and their parties is in a state of quite severe damage. But in time, it can be repaired. Certainly in time for the following election in 2017.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/joke-awaits-new-punchline-20120817-24du5.html
The link amuses me, it also amazes and concerns me.
It too supports a view I have been talking about for two years.
It highlights failure, on both sides.
Ludwig in excepting this state of affairs, and the hollow charges thrown across the floor, we find a shallowness in us.
I give great value to your thoughts,but warn, we saw great support for acting on climate change in 2007, turn to mud.
Your plan, logical, full of Merritt, and in fact needed, has costs.
Those now trying to get here, will still want to come, our birth rate,as the worlds, is not yet under control.
We trade as one world,are addicted to that trade, overseas investors and our own,want only growth.
As your plan, my plan, was implemented, and worked, soon even more would wish to come just for the lifestyle!

From Hartcher’s article:

< Tony Abbott would thrash around for a winning cause if he didn't have Julia Gillard on the other side of the stage. >

Maybe. Or maybe Labor is in such a muddle that no leader would make much difference until they change their basic policy platform.

<< Your plan, logical, full of Merritt, and in fact needed, has costs. >>

Sure there will be costs, and complications. But they are nowhere near as big as those we WILL incur if we don’t stop this utter madness of expanding the demand for everything while at the same time our ability to provide energy, food and all manner of other stuff is becoming more and more tested.

Our birthrate IS under control, and would be more-so if we got rid of the despicable baby bonus!

Yes people will want to come here even more so if we are successful in developing a sustainable society with a high quality of life. But that’s nothing new. Millions want to come here now.

Yes there will be pressure to trade in ways that are not good for us, via multinationals and the trend towards globalisation. But with good governance, we CAN make trade work best for us.

This is a key point to the success of a sustainable society – government being able to make itself independent of the vested-interest pressure exerted by big business. We won’t be able to head for a stable society if we can’t achieve this. And if we can achieve this, then trade pressures that would take us away from sustainability would be under control as well.

Some times Ludwig in our politically correct world speaking the truth can lead to charges of racism, so be it.
Our birth rate is not under control.
Yes the baby bonus is insanity, but its removal changes little.
People who come for a new life from the middle east and other Muslim country's have many more Children.
America, nothing racist about it, will in 30 years be more Latino than WASP.
Birth control must be equality, same law/rule for every one.
Remember I am CONVINCED most are uninterested in your plan, for now, first in my view sustainable growth for the whole world.
Now I NEVER will support you idea of My party's near death.
I still want the filth to give control and leadership back to my people.
But find Godwin Greachs piece in yesterdays press.
Read this man who lied in the Ute gate view of my country.
I first thought it was Bolt then Piers Ackerman, maybe Alan Jones, but no this low teller of untruths yesterday showed me.
Just how very low the other side of politics has sunk.

Albert Einstein said this.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and again and getting it wrong every time.
Some think like that.
Bit in ward looking tonight, had a look at the threads I find interesting.
And fully aware my harsh views on my own party are wearying those who vote as I do.
But I tend to remember the promise of that night in 2007.
And sadly, to see in my mind the sadness of one yet to come in 2013.
I too see not totally failure from Labor, quite the reverse.
OH yes cash for clunkers,public servants sending that $900 to the dead and those who long ago left to live in other country's.
I think we have proved we are *the only party of true reform*
But that the actions,hidden and exposed, in axing Rudd, propping up Gillard defame my party.
So like the kids asking are we there yet?
I must continue being a pain, my future party, the one after Gillard,demands I chant is she gone yet?
Till that wonderful day my party can Begin to grow again.
If I was to die tonight my final words would be*is she gone yet*

<< People who come for a new life from the middle east and other Muslim country's have many more Children. >>

They have more children in their countries of origin, Belly, but does this trend continue for those who move to Australia?

Do you have any stats on this?

<< If I was to die tonight my final words would be*is she gone yet* >>

Whether Gillard is PM or not really is not the major point. Not by a long way. She could be gone and Rudd or Shorten or Swan or Bowen or Albanese or anyone of thirty-odd others could be the new leader….and Labor would get precisely nowhere…..unless the change is accompanied by some pretty profound policy shifts.

So if you are planning on dying in the near future, just before you do, ask instead: ‘has my party mended its policy platform yet?’

DLP Anyone?

Please, make a good case as to why we should support the DLP, Soggy.

They've got to be worth considering. Can't be worse than the Libs, Labs or Groans!!

Luddy you should drop the sustainability bit mate. It frightens people.

It brings to mind the radical ratbags that want us back in the cave, digging roots with our bare hands.

From what I hear from people I know, most Ozzies are for small immigration, stable population, & minimum waste, but don't like that word, because of the others who use it, to mean a different mind set.

You're a smart bloke, coin another slogan.

D’Oh gawd, there’s another invader on Luddy and Belly’s private thread!!

<< From what I hear from people I know, most Ozzies are for small immigration, stable population, & minimum waste, but don't like that word [sustainability] >>

Ok Haz, you might possibly have a point there. The word has certainly been hijacked by unscrupulous ratbags.

So, you're a smart bloke, wadayareckon is a good alternative?

Ludwig fine hand of cards there, drop Swan and I will take any of the above.
Under the blanket of Gillard, and if she is replaced, a battle for control is running.
It most resembles a run away horse, not in control just blindly running, while chanting not me mate.
If she goes, not in a Latham like pass the baton to a mate [Crean/Swan/add as many wrong leaders as you want, we get a lift instantly.
DLP! I challenge SOG ever being ALP!
A party linked to the catholic controlling church, it was more to the right than the tea party!
Who thinks the impending NDIS scheme is not great?
Who supports Abbot soon to be Howard cash give away to mums of up to $75.000 [for high income earners to have a child?]
Is a tax on Carbon, soon to be a trading scheme, so much horse than US paying to grow trees?
So many trees we will need to grow them three trees high to fit them in.
Are Abbott's planned health and education cuts so very good?
And find me, please do, a split hairs difference between each party on population growth.
Ludwig during research about Sydney's gun crime,afraid I would be branded racist!
I failed to post MANY LINKS to family's of up to 9 children.
In family's the head had never worked after arriving here.

Is she gone yet? smile please.
It may surprise a few here,leg pulling, to know I dislike the lady.
But bet by weeks end a thread will have started telling us about 17 years ago and two thieving union officials, she was involved with one.
Abbott's pop gun carrying Child hit man Pyne, is going to get it rolling this week.
IF our Tory media, or followers,found the graves of Gillards ancestors the headlines would read
*We find Gillards hidden skeletons*

<< Is she gone yet >>

No...... I’m afraid Bob Carr isn’t our new PM yet! [sigh] ( :>(

Ludwig I am heartened to report Bob Carr is the best thing Gillard ever did in office.
Appointing him was brilliant.
And heartened to to see she has resigned before, so knows how to do it.
17 years ago the then extreme left lass, did just that at the law firm Slater and Gordon.
Do doubt tomorrows polls and the words of the little tin solder Pyne in the safety of Parliament , will be interesting.
Pyne, like every tin soldier I ever saw, will be red in the face, eyes popping,while looking with love at Abbott, and truth will be on leave as he delivers his masters words.
Maybe the tin soldier would be better known as *His Masters Voice*

Deear o dear!

Poor little Pinky Pyne!

You never know Belly, he might actually say something honest and useful…. in amongst the drivel!!

Well the thread has started, and here I stand! pants down around my knees!
I just can not find supporting her Worth while, am hoping the poll tomorrow will not lift her.
If it did it would be more a matter of Abbott falling than her rising.
But party first!
And I have zero time for union grubs.
Past Present and future, there will be future ones, workers first always.
But the circus is on tomorrow!
Leave your biases in the bucket at the door!
Watch from 2 pm the greatest show on earth, scripted by Abbott, who best resembles a straw filled doll.
Sliding over his chair arms like that grinning and watching as his minions ask the questions he crafts, delivers the sneers he rehearsed them to.
It matters not if the Gillard had a thieving boy Friend thing has legs, in fact legless lizards are more than welcome if some of the mud sticks.
Watch the body language, on both sides,and the eyes have it!
As each performing seal talks a look at those behind often sees just a little, shame at the sham.
True believers note, those we believe in must to be true to us.

Well got it wrong, again.
The circus started yesterday!
I thought it was today so was out spraying the trees.
Missed the exit of the clowns,all five of them.
Got the circus part right.
POLL 38% think both Abbott and Gillard are doing a good job!
And they get to vote!
62% do not think so.
When will both party's understand?
Soon.

<< The circus started yesterday! >>

What is this? To what are you referring?

I thought the Gillard – Abbott circus was an ongoing event, day after day, week after week.... !!

<< Missed the exit of the clowns,all five of them. >>

Oh goodie, some of those Labor clowns have left politics??

No..... I have no idea of what you are referring to ( :>/

Ludwig! I am shocked, Labor clowns?
Four liberals GOT EXPELLED!
Abbott one of them.
A fifth faithful cattle dog,from the Servant Nats went too.
I thought the tent opened today.
It was yesterday! silly me missed it!
However on again today, quite Right too every day.
My mum had a special stick for acting like that!
In politics I have to find reason to laugh or find my self crying.
is she gone yet?

So poor old Tony got ‘imself ejected from the ‘ouse!!

Hahaha!

No one’s condemning him for the single simple remark that got him booted out, are they? No one’s calling him a lawless or parliamentarily disrespectful leader, are they?

Nope. No one’s thinking poorly of him at all for having to do the slow slouching walk of shame out of the chamber (while battling to hide the smile on his face as to how amazingly easy it was to make history and become the first leader to be ejected in 26 years!!)

In fact, he’s probably gained a few brownie points as a result!!

<< is she gone yet? >>

Nope. Me good mate Tony is not PM yet!! As soon as he gets the top job, the red-headed one will go the way of the dodo…..

....and then we will fiiinally have a GOOD Labor leader, b’coz by that time the party will have seen the great sense in Luddy’s proposal and decided that old Bob Carr is indeed the right choice for their new leader!!

See we are still in our cubby house, is it a tree top one? I like trees
My fear true honest and fairdinkum, is Gillard is getting that lift not from good deeds but Abbotts bad ones.
The bloke, along with Pyne and Julie Bishop,the other one is getting too old to make it to the dispatch box.
Act like naughty girls from Saint Trinians, well not Tony no doubting his man hood.
Slouching in his chair he best resembles a snear on legs.
IS LOOKING SHAKY.
I will hurt if he goes and she stays!

No point in keeping a thread alive for two or three people.
So this is my last in this one.
First, all jokes aside, it is my unshakable view Gillard must go.
That while she leads Labor can never win an election.
And that men, in big numbers, ALP or not, will never vote for her.
Yet the lie within a lie, that she knowingly lied, about carbon tax, is just that,*a known lie*
In the 17 days we did not know who had won/gained support to govern, she and Abbott, took on board what those they needed wanted.
Gillard *without doubt* took the greens demands, those demands had been a part of two at least Independents as well.
Labor, its knife welding leader, wanted a trading scheme.
As is always the case they took what was on offer, to govern.
Abbott would have done so.
History, it has happened before, will look back with better vision on these days.
Labor, by installing Gillard, has as in 1975, helped the Tory,s.
But too as has happened before, history will be very cruel to Abbott,s tea party faction of this oppersition.
And his party trying still to bury the very bones of todays lost leaderless oppersition.

The NT landslide has taken place
An election that saw Labor hide its name, its very brand, from voters.
No way around this to use a well known saying, it is time.
Time to ask why was Rudd dumped.
Why was Gillard installed.
Why with great Labor policy's, mixed in with junk like cash for clunkers have our true believers even left us.
And why in a battle to control the party have its grass roots , its members been sidelined.
An educated guess? maybe, but here are my views.
Rudd, maybe Rude but determined to push his better mining tax, frightened my party's would be owners, power brokers.
He too wanted and end, to Union control,again not in the hands of many but those power brokers.
So he had to go? once men like Charlie Oliver had that unquestioned power, head of the AWU his word was law, not now!
Gillard? a mystery within a mystery! she from the left, ONCE had the wood on Abbott.
Was that the reason the right took this refugee from the left, a left that is the very reason the right exists to keep from distroying our party?
From the day she took power she lacked the very thing that seemingly put her there, the ability to even hold her own with Abbott.
A seeming determination not to explain her actions, not to defend her self, to rely on? Abbott's negativity and an expected but so far wrong view voters would pick her over him.
What keeps her there?
Is it those power brokers? their egos? not wanting to see Kevin 07 back and their ego bruised?
Would they rather the partys near death? maybe but.
Continued

BLACKMAIL may be the answer here, on the night Kev said he would change, offered to leave if it did not work, power brokers may have offered a great deal more than we know of.
Gillard may have been promised no knifing, others may be threatening to leave on the day the party and its, history/members/future is put before her.
Labor may be unable to move, without the Greens leaving power to Abbott.
Voters await , they do not all understand politics, or even care, elections are won by such as Kevin Rudd and John Howard,because of the way they look or talk.
And lost by such as Gillard because? I see the womanly nature in her, no do not giggle,I see her acting like a petulant female not a politician!
She could have been invincible!
But she, seemingly trying to protect her inner self, REFUSED TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT CARBON TAX.
She as Abbott would have dealt to get power.
She only had to FIRMLY SAY as a result of wheeling and dealing we had to do, I am sorry to say we will have a carbon tax, instead of the planned longer term trading scheme.
Tasmania next, even I know that would take place even under Rudd.
A shameful shadow of the once proud ALP is in power there, but a puppet of the Greens, it may take 30 years to get power back there.
So I burn the midnight oil, suffering a result I knew was to come, put on an old pair of hobnailed boots and trample on the feet of my partys future.
Those who live a life I never can, who are both players in the dieing power brokers game and our party's future.
Should I refrain? sit in a corner and be silent?
NEVER Bill Shorten, Paul Howe's, know you are men I idolize, but too hold guilty of forgetting me, my mates my party.
Bill or Kevin, maybe the two together now is the time.
I will never have your lifestyles but I will until death put my party first.

<< Time to ask why was Rudd dumped. Why was Gillard installed. >>

Oh goodness no. It’s waaay past that time!

<< …with great Labor policy's… >>

Khwaaaaaa Khaaaaaaww Khaaaaw Plhplhplhsfsfshaaaaaahh Eeeer Kerplunnnk!

(cough….splutter…..fall headfirst on floor)

<< Bill or Kevin, maybe the two together now is the time. >>

Oooohhh Gawwwwwd. What a terrible thought!! I would be ROFLing, 'cept my head hurts too much!!

So much for my wonderful Sundy morning.

I’m goin back to bed ( :<(

Ludwig! mate! pull the blanket up over your head.
No sense taking any chances reality will sneak its head in there bloke.
Thanks for the laugh
If it is only the flue can you kiss Gillard for me?

Poll taken over the weekend, can be seen in every states press, show a Labor lift.
Third in a row.
But I am afraid of the results.
Gillard came back as preferred PM by 3 point rise.
Liberals would still win by a landslide
Both Leaders, here is the important part, have 57% who are unhappy with them.
Right now, lets leave the bias, Abbott is not looking good, if he was replaced Liberals would on first preferences.
Well bar the lunacy of the wrong replacement, be over 60% on two party preferred, unbeatable .
GillarD stays Labor dies,
If she goes? a chance exists for a near run race.
So my fear?
Labor, not its thinking followers may think Gillard leads the climb back.
The rise is lead by TONY ABBOTT!

What does this improvement in the polls means?

It has surely got to mean that most people don’t think that the carbon and mining taxes are a fraction as bad as some would have us believe?

Now, if Gillard was to come out with a big cut in immigration, and a more concerted effort to deal with onshore asylum seeking including the implementation of TPVs, as well as a decisive end to fly-in visa overstayers and asylum seekers…. and a reduction and quota for Kiwi immigrants, then I reckon she’d see a surge to put Labor well ahead of the Libs.

Hey, she really could surge ahead so easily…. because Abbott is so dismal and so poorly liked by the majority of the populace!!

But if Labor really wanted to do it properly, then Carr’s da man!

Ludwig! pay attention Mate/friend, Carbon tax, to be turning in to a price on Carbon, is not a tenth as bad as the Mad Monk claimed.
He knowingly lied.
Mining tax has more support than those against it, just not the influence the rich have.
And this country both sides, in truth let greed not future concerns elect governments.
If our Tony, lashed out and called HER ROYAL HIGHNESS bad things Gillard could not win an election.
These two leaders, refugees from manual labour jobs, float about in a scum of their own making.
As one gets worse the other rises.
57% dislike each of them, so why not change.
So disjointed are both party,s if they did now Julie Bishop may face Simon Crean both the worst other than present leaders we could have.
Rudd Vs Turnbull be brave tell us you both got it wrong but care enough to get it right.

NSW Council elections on Saturday.
I did 4 hours on pre poll handing out how to votes.
Saturday, around NSW is going to be harsh for the ALP.
500 voted today, 8.000 so far, two weeks are alloted.
A STRONG FEELING people want change , so watch the results, I will post for interstate folk.
My predictions? Labor to slip badly, and more new councilors across this state than we have seen for a very long time.
Is Gillard still about?
An e mail is saying not for long, not an ALP one but internal Liberal one being passed around today!

By the middle of next week, Parliament will be sitting.
But of more importance the voting in NSW council elections will see the count in.
More pressure for Gillard, and more for the blind mice who knifed Rudd/installed her.
No come back for her here, a loss in Labor vote across the state will be telling.
Yet we all, both sides suffer, as two desperate teams within party,s, both of them.
Try to dress Failed Leaders as good ones, while not believing it them selves.
Go Gillard go back to being a good education minister.

I claim vindication.
Being well aware my slanted views about GILLARD hits a nerve with ALP voters.
Aware too anti Tony Abbott folk are against my frankness.
I here and in other threads warned the sky is falling, Labor lead by Gillard is dead.
My campaign to return my party to its elected leader, undo the injustice done to Rudd, and too to take the power brokers to task for? betraying my party, nothing less!
Think with me Liverpool, post ww2 Migrants made the place, the best Italian market gardens and tomatoes a strong vibrant place.
A solid Labor seat.
Yesterday, mid a state wide swing of massive proportions, Greens, YOU BEAUTY! and Labor lost any right to blindly pretend their very death is a possibility.
To the power brokers? it is time.
Consider, you presented us with the NSW election results, yesterdays, and plan to give us a near death one next year.
OFF your kibbers suits, fix it or go.
Australia is more concerned about Gillard than it is about Abbott what more evidence do you need? you got it wrong!

<< ...undo the injustice done to Rudd... >>

Oh Belly, he so totally deserved what he got.

There was no injustice towards him.... but a whole lot of injustice from him towards the Australian people.

Progressive thinking is what ALP needs, not backward thinking about going backwards to a tried and proven failure!!

Ludwig! my mate! sit in the corner, you can not have you Bob Carr!
Luddy did Australia deserve Gillard?
Did it deserve the party,s owners/right power brokers selling the membership out?
With certain defeat facing us does it deserve these same idiots propping up a woman who could not win a raffle,even if she bought every ticket.
Without change I am planning a survival bunker for ALP survivors post election, it is 6 foot by six.
Hope I can fill it.
*There is no wisdom standing on the shoulders of a Donkey with three legs, laughing at how bad the other sides 4 legged billy goat looks while waiting for the starting gun*

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/national/claims-julia-gillard-was-deeply-involved-in-rudd-sacking/story-fndo4gtr-1226474480101
This link is to a story about our Maxine, the women who beat Howard out of his seat.
IT IS DAMNING!
Not in its revelations Gillard lies, but in the scheming she under took to unseat Rudd.
I get it here, even friends tell me not to betray my party.
Once, The good and Kind Lexi asked me not to be like Richo.
I wounder how many know how powerful that bloke was?
He once had our numbers and our party in his pocket and his heart, he still has with the latter.
Gillard came with that fiendish fool Latham, with a plan.
I have heard part of it, she is dangerous! do not trust her.
She, no matter what Abbott says, can not win another election.
Men in numbers, have forever turned on her, and are in danger of turning on ANY woman leader for some time.
So why are we waiting.
Believe me before her dad died it was to be this sitting, sad event, sorry for her, but must my party die.
No dreams coming true just a night mare , eat the humble pie do it now let Labor be Labor not Gillards toy.

The important point Belly is that Rudd has ufcked up so badly that he had to go! His colleagues wouldn’t have taken the unprecedented step of removing him otherwise.

Ludwig good morning.
Well I think you understand I am a student of politics.
I knew only Kevin had been more than rude a few times to such as air hostesses.
The press knew more,but as with Paul K kept it to them selves.
Rudd, much like Latham knew little about unions.
He knew he wanted an end to their control of the party.
There lays the whole story, as the book to come will tell us, it was a planned hit.
He was not warned Gillard Shorten and my faction, the right knifed him.
Do you think Gillard can win? did we benefit from that knife?
And did the hand holding the knife even consider the party?
In NSW WE SOLD MEMBERSHIP FOR $5! NOW QLD!
We just lost BLACKTOWN COUNCIL! it has never happened before.
My party, every day Gillard remains in charge, is BETRAYING ME.
And my party.
Turning my breathing living party in to roadkill is her only acHeivment that concerns me.
We must not, yet, reward those who held the knife.
Returning a better Rudd re unites my party and those who have been sold out.

Morning Belly. Wonderful day here in Cairns.

You know my views on this. Better policies, that's what Labor desperately needs. Not a new leader with the same old doctrine.

Gillard finally came out and admitted that Labor had to adopt some of Howard's border-protection policies... without admitting it as such.

She admitted it by doing it without admitting she was doing it!

But the important thing was that she saw the absolutely necessity of developing different policies.

Labor needs to evolve, big-time. She's taken the first step. Now she needs to get her views against a Big Australia into order and steer the party in that direction.

Now, how on earth could Snorter... er Snortin... erum Shorten possibly snot it to the silly Libs? No chance!!

How could Rudd return the rabble and reign supreme? It's a ridiculous proposition!

Shorten or Rudd would simply take the party in just the same direction as it is going now.... and quite frankly, that will NOT work for them!

But hey, wait a minute....

What if Thomson took the terrible trashy policies of his party and turned them topsy-turvy and transformed that troop of trollops into a tight-knit top-rate unit of..... sustainabilityists!

If you don't like Carr, then consider Kelvin Thomson. Very articulate, intelligent, genuine and focussed in the right direction!

Go check him out Belly. There are lots of youtubes of his talks.

Cains? lucky you!
Mate I disagree with almost all of that.
My success as a union official came from just being fair dinkum, hearing what others said saying you got that wrong if I needed to.
It is my view our few failures are the property of Gillard and her faction.
And that Shorten is, if he has the guts to shift camps, a great leader in waiting.
We Labor can not avoid the betrayal of Rudd is every bit as bad, in Joe and Jane publics eye, as Curr/Kerr over again.
On our front and back bench sit the equal of ANY.
We should not let our achievements[ good lawd she is on the TV must run to turn it off]over look Gillard is poison!

Belly, we’ll just have to agree to hold fundamentally different views on this.

Australia so badly needs a new political regime, which swings right away from the absurdity of the continuous growth spiral - where extremely high immigration is touted to be good for our economy by providing jobs and increasing markets, while economic growth which is touted to be the answer to everything battles in vain to provide the same standard of living for this rapidly increasing population!

It’s the epitome of utter madness!!

A regime of sustainability, where the demand is stabilised rather than forever increasing is of fundamental and critical importance.

I thought that you agreed with this, and yet it doesn’t seem to figure at all in your ideas for the future of the Labor party or politics in Australia.

Labor, being in the position they are now in, facing annihilation at the next election, has surely GOT to face the prospect of embracing this new paradigm. Especially given that they have two excellent insiders who are oriented in this direction.

The time is absolutely right for them to do it, and they’ve got all the motivation in the world to go for it. If they don't, they're cactus!!

The LAST thing Labor or this country needs is just another new leader, or recycled leader, that continues on with the same old now disproven all-growth-is-good-and-faster-growth-is-always-better insane political regime.

We have a lot of common ground Ludwig, I do agree as you said, but mate this country is not yet ready to agree with us.
Based on nothing but her personality and way of getting PM job Gillard will/must go.
Labor now it has confronted the greens must re take the conservation ground.
Do you know Carr made more and better National Parks than anyone,and some wanted him hung for it.
He you may know rose to the top in scouting and loved a bush walk.
I have no fears Labor will reform, it is the only reformist party.
But thanks to factional leaders stumbling over its own reform.
Once seat under them, in the house, too many forget those who put them there.
We will reform,our policy's are good but we crash and burn without wining back trust.
And every change first must be sold.
If and it seems Labor has conceded Abbott wins we will ride back in to office on his failures not our reforms as we did with Howard, no way to run a country.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/turnbull-firms-as-preferred-leader-20120916-260kj.html
Politics can baffle, it does those unaware it can be a slippery eel.
My link in no way changes my mind Labor must change its leader.
Yet the polls seem to disagree, and I am aware of future events that may unseat Tony Abbott.
First the link, Turnbull,despite the extremes not wanting him, now has majority support in his party followers.
That spells the end for a Gillard lead Government.
It is as much a rejection of Abbott as anything.
Gillard and Labor are up, for the same reason,but add the needless actions of state leaders who fuel Labors federal fires,wiser men would have waited.
Next 3 months are interesting,SLIPPER!
A blast from the past, ute gate all over again!
See love or hate the bloke,he has been set up, weare going to see and hear much more.
Some Liberal heads may/will roll.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/sparring-in-the-ring-of-truth-20120916-260d0.html
An interesting, maybe telling link.
Bit long and refers to along time ago.
But in my view it gives evidence of something Ihave long known.
Abbott lies.
And far more, extremely far more than Gillard.
It was Liberals,assisted by a ex Labor front bencher, who unleashed the 17 year old past on Gillard.
Not a split hair separates Abbott And Gillard, as they race to find out who gets the last spot, to in effect prove We will get two leaders we do not want, no matter how bad.
Wade through the link, tell me Tiny Tony has not yet again miss lead us?