We have all received them.
The heated red neck e mails quoting unbelievable amounts given to these folk.
What is the truth.
Do they really get so much more than Australians?
What is the average time spent on welfare.
Is it true an over Representative number never find work.
Can it be true SOME have had 5 even many more Children but never got off Social security?
Is it possible that our Social security alone is a magnet for these boats?
What are the costs over all watching for boats saving people in trouble housing settling, and maintaining Social Welfare?
Would it be cheaper to donate directly to the home lands to create better living conditions?

Yes a strange question.
Some may think one aimed at being a bit bigoted.
But we cut, in hard times, our donations to needy country's this year.
How much is this costing? is the money well spent?
The subject, every part of it, is bound to be heated.
And lies are currency when we talk of it.
But figures from $3.000 to $10.000 are said to be paid to criminal people smugglers.
What about the starving and dieing in Africa and other places ?
They may in a whole life time never see that much money.

Belly, you label those who quote the 'unbelievable amounts' as 'red necks', yet you are questioning it yourself and asking for the truth.
Doesn't that make you a red neck too?

The big problem is the lack of transparency around immigration, nobody knows how a refugee mother of six on welfare can afford a brand new ford Territory or Rav 4 , this leads to speculation about who might be guaranteeing the loans or if indeed this is just a case of loan sharking or other financial exploitation of gullible newcomers.
The same can be said about the perception that immigrants commit more crime than natives, rumours are rife and people have a lot of fairly stupid ideas on the subject because the authorities keep the statistics secret.
That's the other nasty aspect of the PC and academic establishment, it's secretive and won't release any information which might contradict the orthodox, egalitarian dogma of "Diversity is strength!".
As in the first post of this thread people who have negative opinions of refugees are automatically assumed to be ignorant Bogans but the fact is that even if it's an accurate description the fault still lies with the PC and academic establishment as they are the ones depriving "Red Necks" of accurate information and making it nigh on impossible to have a properly informed opinion on the subject.
Pro Refugee citizens are in the same boat as the "Bogans", they have no more information than anyone else with which to back their case and are reduced to the same ill informed and emotional reactions as the people they deride as "un-educated Red Necks".

Love your work, Jay. You put it beautifully, I wonder if the op is intelligent enough to know when he's been told, hahaha!

I agree with Jay, there is insufficent information from official sourses and this leads to speculation about what refugees receive.

It does make one wonder when you hear of a recently arrived refugee owner/driver of a taxi in Melbourne and you know taxi plates cost a lot and how could he possibly get a taxi licence if he has only been here a short time. One of the persons in the recent 4 corners show, that was paying the smugglers to bring his brother here, lived in a two story 'mac mansion'. How come if he has not long arrived. How did Cptn Emad get 3 public houses for he and his family?

The government should be more open about exactly what assistance pending and approved refugees get.

Yes I am AP, Raw mustard I do not regard you as hot stuff, manners prevent a description ok?
It never was my intention to open a back door to the refugee debate.
I hold the view if we knew the true costs we would demand the issue be fixed.
I knew, we all did, it would only be a matter of time before another boat floundered.
For a while yesterday looked like another massive toll, how much did that cost?
Why is it hidden in paper work , the costs?, why do those news manufacturing papers not put it in headlines?
We each of us do, truly, have the right to our opinions.
We,far too often fight because of them, but who is to say my posts have ever been other than demanding an end to these boats.
This much I truly think, SOME VIEWS, still here RM? are near rants.
Some, on both sides well thought out and based on understanding.
SOME the GREENS are blind to the impacts of their wanted out comes.
How much is it costing, in money, in fractured cultural problems?
How many are on SS for ever.
ONE DAY we must ask is our Social Security System fair to those who paid tax for 50 years by giving the same or more to those who never did?
Who arrive here and never hold a job?
My next post is about the debate last night on Oakshots bill.

While it is clear most who posted so far are not happy with me, so be it, know I say only what I think.
I watched the debate last night.
It concerned me,I truly hold the view Abbott is a disgrace, tells lies, cares nothing for other than his future.
On both sides of the debate people said things they did not believe.
I support the Malaysian solution.
Not one of those on offer is ok, but it, with one modification is best.
That modification comes from Liberals stated views.
Children are not to be sent to Malaysia, *So I propose this country ban all family reunions for people sent there or arriving post bill passing the house, further ban those sent from being granted residency here*
I further demand this end now, today, Granted LABOR GOT IT WRONG.
But get it right in the upper house today.
Abbott has no intention of putting other than himself first.
When it is clear it will not pass Labor must put in a amendment and return it to the lower house demanding Parliament sit until SOME ONE GIVES IN.
Both sides fail us Gillard, the wrong leader should see a bill pass with Wilkes amendment as part of it, or go today.
Abbott? in the eyes of his shadow minister you could see the thought! is this bloke mad?
No but gone soon? yes.
In your guts you know he is nuts!

The greens, yet again are underlining just why more dislike them, and always will than vote for them.
Right now as much as anyone they stand in front of answers on this issue.

When you speak with people in that industry you hear stories the average person on the street simply refuses to believe.
Leftist power mongers are the principal cause of this runaway bandwagon. People who don't give a damn if Australia gets overrun as long as their Superannuation keeps building up. Many Australians in these decision-policy-making circles do not deserve to be called Australians, they're traitors of the worst kind, maggots of our social system.

I watched Christine Milne last night on ABC TV, put forward the
Greens solution. It just blows me away that people can be so
naive about the real world.

The way I understand it, she thinks that if we increase numbers a
bit and bring them over safely, that would fix it. Is the lady
not aware that the telephone lines will be running hot in the
third world and that before long she will have a deluge seeking
the cushy life here, one way or another?

Christine should take note at the huge numbers of Mexicans prepared
to risk their lives to get to America. That has nothing to do with
asylum, everything to do with seeking a better, first world lifestyle.

Europe has been invaded by boats from Africa, with people trying to
do the same. Why does Christine think that its going to be different
from Asia?

Thanks yabby, it took a post like that to take the bad taste of the one above away.
Greens are of no worth, they are the Morris Dancers I often reffer to drunk or drugged by the look of their actions.
I want to remind foot ball fans, we never not ever, refuse to kick our own team if they play badly.
These two days saw both sides let us down, and the Greens prove they are unfit to hold a seat.
Gillard in my view lost her right to lead about two days before she won it, in hind sight.
She surely is gone after this failure.
Abbott? how do you say what I think?
The in your guts you know he is nuts was stolen, it reffered to Barry Goldwater.
I think, honestly, he is to go, as a result of his actions these two days.
Great for Australia!
More will die at sea over the winter break, we could have stopped it LABOR/LIBERAL it would not have mattered, both sides lie, we could send them to Nehru , prove it would/would not work, then Malaysia.
Both sides stood and lied or answered questions with lies.
Greens? please understand you wasted your vote never ever give a preference to such fools.
Lets send the greens back in those leaky boats,Gillard and Abbott as deck cargo!
Abbott? you know you can tell when he is lying.
His Lips Are Moving!

Thanks yabby, it took a post like that to take the bad taste of the one above away.Abbott? you know you can tell when he is lying.
His Lips Are Moving!.
Belly,
Your inferences are out of order. Get a life you...

I wanted to throw a shoe at the screen too Yabby. The Greens solution is limitless, idealistic nonsense. Howard's legislation won't work (never did) and the Malaysian solution will if given a chance.

Greens have to decide whether the guaranteed 4% drowning rate will remain or whether asylum seekers might be safer in Malaysia being processed then resettled here or elsewhere safely.

Why Greens don't make the right decision while suing for a higher refugee intake from the camps of the world, as Abbott suggested (as a bribe for their support of his legislation), is beyond me. That way they win something for refugees instead of maintaining the deadly status quo.

To add to my last post, Greens have now handed government to the coalition at the next election and will finish up getting Howard's legislation. This is because, with Labor's vote split to the Greens, only the the coalition can claim to be able to attain a majority to govern in its own right and to address the issue, which the vast majority of Australian's want resolved and will vote accordingly.

Christine Milne and Greens, congratulations on your juvenile piousness. It will be your destruction at the next election and reinstate the most inhumane border control policy ever dreamed up by a modern first world country.

reinstate the most inhumane border control policy ever dreamed up by a modern first world country.
Luciferase,
What'ts the policy re boat people on your planet ? Maybe us earthlings could use your ideas.

Border Protection - Australian Style

A group of friends went hiking.
One had a map but no one wanted to see it.
They came to a river and before deciding to
cross they camped overnight.
Next morning they couldn't agree where to cross.
Floods came, winter came, snow came, but still
they could not agree.

Last time we heard they're still camped by the river.

individual, thank you for asking me that question.

To jog your memory regarding Howard's legislation,
http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/11/07/the-consequences-of-turning-boats-back-siev-towback-cases/

At that link you will find details on the SIEV's. Read about SIEV 4, amongst others, then read the following extract from the log of HMAS Adelaide, as tabled before a senate committee on 21 February 2002, regarding that vessel:

6 October [2001]

1813 First warning given to master of vessel.

7 October [2001]

0153 Second warning issued.

0216 Boarding party ordered by Commanding Officer to prepare to board SIEV-4 when vessel enters Christmas Island Contiguous Zone.

0258 Adelaide made close pass down SIEV-4 starboard side.

0335 Adelaide directed by CJTF to conduct a positive and assertive boarding.

0402 Warning 5.56 mm (cannon) shots fired 50 feet in front of vessel.

0405 Warning 5.56 mm shots fired 75 feet in front of SIEV-4.

0409 Warning 5.56 mm shots fired 50-100 feet in front of SIEV-4.

0414 Boarding party advised by CO that if 50 cal machine gun warning shots do not stop vessel, boarding party is to aggressively board SIEV-4.

0418-0420 Twenty-three rounds of 50 cal (20 rounds of automatic fire) fired in front of SIEV-4.

0430 Close quarters manoeuvering by Adelaide, SIEV passed close astern to Adelaide port quarter and reduced speed/took way off momentarily.

0432 Boarding party issued final warning (to SIEV) indicating that if they did not allow boarding party to board, Adelaide would not let them enter Australian waters.

0442 Boarding party effected a conducted non-compliant boarding of SIEV-4.

0445 Boarding party in control of SIEV-4.[1]

On my planet, individual, the policy is not to use arms on the high sea to stop or turn back unsafe boatloads of people who we know have no intent but to seek asylum by reaching Australian waters. That was wrong, both because it was inhumane and because it compromised our navy, and that is why it was stopped.

Having said that, asylum seekers who were desperate and enterprising enough happily went to offshore or mainland detention under Australian protection. TPV's? Easy, just bring the wife and kids.

All of Australia's early settlers were
boat people. And many who came after.
We tend to forget that.

I recently saw a cartoon on the web that
depicted Aborigines standing on the
shore while John Howard, Philip Ruddock,
et cetera (dressed in British naval
uniforms) sit in a boat waiting to come ashore.
One of the
Aborigines makes the statement:

"We shall decide who comes to this country,
and under what circumstances they come!."

And Mr Howard (dressed in British Naval uniform) exclaims:
"But, But, But, that's inhumane!"

the policy is not to use arms on the high sea to stop or turn back unsafe boatloads of people who we know have no intent but to seek asylum by reaching Australian waters.
Luciferase,
I must admit I got confused with your earlier post & my reply in hindsight now seems out of place.
However, regarding the above quote I'd like to ask another question. How sure are you that many boat people are genuine refugees. Why do you think they scuttle the boats as soon as it becomes obvious that they have been spotted by australian surveillance. Why weren't the facts in your link re the Siev-4 publicised as much as the children overboard fiasco ?

"We shall decide who comes to this country,
and under what circumstances they come!."
Lexi,
Cast your mind back even further when the Aborigines arrived here & what the original inhabitants might have said ?

Dear Individual,

You asked me what the original inhabitants -
PRIOR to the Aborigines said?
Ok. I think it went something
like this:

"kuk-ack-kook-uk-ack-cukack," making
the most extraordinary cacophony of sounds and
rattling cries.

"How sure are you that many boat people are genuine refugees?" Again, thanks for asking, individual

The answer is, I don't know. What Australia did a decade ago was to act on the prejudgement that boat people were not asylum seekers but somebody else trying to enter Australian waters, a third reason Howard's policy was wrong (adding to its inhumanity and compromising of the navy).

Once they're here, we're bound by UN convention to assess their claims, so we tried to stop them from getting here, by force. What the Malaysian swap involves is to shifting the assessment process back to Malaysia and joining a camp queue. Reaching Nauru meant avoiding a camp queue, which is why people were so happy to be taken there.

Like I said, the Greens had the opportunity to choose between a guaranteed 4% death rate and people being looked after and processed in Malaysia before joining a queue to be safely resettled here or elsewhere. Also, they could have sued for a large increase in the immigration cap to accommodate more such refugees. But no, the pious principle that Malaysia must be a signatory to the UN convention when refugees are coming from countries that already are (!) must be adhered to so they can lie straight in bed while people die !!

cont'

Oh Joe Hockey, such a deep display of passionate concern for a 13 year-old girl from someone who would turn unsafe boats with women and children on-board back out to sea under a reinstatement of Howard's legislation !! That girl's welfare will be looked after in Malaysia under the agreement and any attempt to use children as beach-heads to shoe-horn family groups in will thus be be dissuaded.(Is it possible we feel more concern for children of refugees than they do, or is sending unaccompanied minors an indication of how desperate they are?)

As for the sentimental,soppy Sarah Hansen-Young, her tears were useless is in dealing with such an issue. She bawled through what should have been a pragmatic attempt by the Greens to achieve something for those they're supposedly concerned about, All we got was a misty attack of the vapours and a disregard for life so Greens can remain warm in the glow of their self-righteousness. Sheer puke!

As is continually pointed out, Gillard as PM is charged with brokering a successful, sustainable solution to stopping death. The Malaysian swap is the only chance of that and she should not be deflected from it.

This has been the most disgusting day in politics since the dismissal.

Like many others, I have little regard for the Greens. Many of their policies do not bear close scrutiny.

The information provided by this writer is interesting, particularly as some of it may be new to readers. It certainly presents a context which has been missing from debate.
http://theconversation.edu.au/six-issues-missing-from-the-asylum-seeker-debate-7947

Danielle, I could respond to several inter-related points in your link but will focus on "While we need to grieve for the lives lost and seek to prevent future loss we should do so by keeping in perspective the scale of Australia’s asylum seeker “problem” and enable less reactionary approaches to refugee protection and irregular border crossing."

Greens want the end of the zero-sum described in point 5 meaning we are left with a limitless immigrant intake as irregular maritime arrivals (IMA) grow. Why should Greens expect the majority to accept this as a principle, irregardless of scale?

Why should Greens expect us to watch with muted concern while IMA grow exponentially with the rolling out of their welcome mat that ensures the safety of boat journeys (or air journeys, however asylum seekers see fit to arrive) and removal of impediments to arrival, such as considering risk profiles in visa issuing practices, before granting the provision of rights to live and work in the community while awaiting assessment. The pull factor will result in a huge influx of genuine and non-genuine asylum seekers and the processing of their claims and meeting of their needs upon arrival will quickly grow beyond our ability to manage, and afford.

Greens seem to want us to sacrifice our sovereignty for the sake of all suffering humanity, without limit. At the very least, they seem to be asking us to trust them to manage something perhaps reaching short of this. It is arrogant for them to expect this of us, and they should have acted today in the way I described in my earlier posts, rather than in idealistic hope, to gain what they could for refugees.

Even if the zero-sum game were maintained, how can they justify the granting of residency to those who have the resources to get here ahead of those who don't?

As you wrote, many Greens policies do not bear close scrutiny.

Luciferase

"Greens seem to want us to sacrifice our sovereignty for the sake of all suffering humanity, without limit."

To be honest, the posturing of the Greens about 'humanity' hasn't the real ring of sincerity; at the very least there is no measured and thoughtful consideration of all issues ...

As with their policies in general,lots of smoke and mirrors.

For the electorate, it is like being handed a poisoned chalice and told: "Now Drink!

On any issue any at all, the Greens are as useless as a fence post.
So too however are SOME, I include my respected Friend Lexi, who see the pain but refuse to see the impacts.
Tell me, do we agree these REFUGEES I question that term, have more cash than the average?
Those haveing spent ten years in Malaysia because they can not afford to pay criminals are they more worthy?
Have we ANY RIGHT to first interview those we take.
Why do these folk come without papers.
Who will you hold responsible for past and future deaths at sea.
If 200 die before Parliament sits?
Is it better to die at sea than sit and wait?
Now, here in this thread I have been personally insulted once again.
By a person I REFUSE TO TALK TO.
My crime? saying what I truly think!
Yet believe me I refuse to do that too, my view of my protagonist is insulting,truly held, but not to be written, because it should not.
However Abbott is in the habit of a mad monk, one avoiding the truth, followed by SOME unable to see hear or speak it.
Last, with respect, no government of any shade will ever again be elected if it can not stop these boats.
Harsh? but true we are sick of the whole thing enough Canberra fix it.

see the pain but refuse to see the impacts.
Belly,
That is one of the most impacting assertions I've read here. What a spot-on observation.

"kuk-ack-kook-uk-ack-cukack,"
Lexi,
No, not the kookaburras. I'm referring to the inhabitants who left us the many cave paintings etc from 40000 + years ago.
The Aborigines aren't the real Aboriginals, there were people here before them.

I don't think so, individual.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-23/aboriginal-dna-dates-australian-arrival/2913010

"Sequencing of a West Australian Aboriginal man's hair shows he was directly descended from a migration out of Africa into Asia which took place about 70,000 years ago."

"...Aboriginal Australians have had a longer continuous relationship with the land than any other race of people."

Belly,
Why do you keep going on about Abbott,Abbott, Abbott? The Libs are backing a policy that has worked. i.e. Nauru plus TPVs.

This government stuffed that up and caused the present problem, so it is up to them to admitt they were wrong and revert to the previous policy. That would be a good starting point to stop the boats from coming.

The problem here is that the Gillard government will not admitt it was wrong. Gillard yesterday asked the Senate to 'examine their consience'. She should be doing just that as her government has the blood of over 800 people on her hands.

Easy to stop the boats coming, just revert to previous policy and if they still do not stop impose even more disincentives, like no papers or passports no entry, no right of appeal, no legal aid. Keep them at Nauru. I could soon stop them, it is not rocket science. I just requires a bit of backbone.

If you were backing a horse, would you back a first starter or a proven winner?

a migration out of Africa into Asia which took place about 70,000 years ago."
Poirot,
I tend to believe that.

"...Aboriginal Australians have had a longer continuous relationship with the land than any other race of people."
I have no qualms about that either. Also, don't discount the fact they also can lay claim to have been the most isolated as well.

But going back to the boat people, Australia will be a major contributor to the making of refugees if it continues to take them in. The Welfare system is already broken & the only way to keep these immigrants is by taking more from those who filled the coffers in the first place. I'd love to see a statement from boat people where they say that getting off welfare & pulling their own weight is one of their priorities. My guess is that their first Dollars made here go straight back to their country to pay for more boat people to make their way here.

@Poirot,

<<sequencing of a West Australian Aboriginal man's hair shows he was directly descended from a migration out of Africa into Asia which took place about 70,000 years ago>>

Just a couple of points of logic:

1) It doesn’t necessarily follow that because your source says they were <<directly descended from a [70,000] migration >> that they arrived here first. That finding does not address the issue of when they arrived. So it does NOT/ CANNOT disprove Individuals point/argument

2) Nor, does it prove that there was ONE THEY. It is highly likely there where many theys. Seeing aborigines as a monolithic “THEY” is a modern construct of those on the left.

Dear Individual,

The first human inhabitants of Australia were
the Aborigines:

http://panique.com.au/trishansoz/aborigine/aborigin.html

BTW - you need to do some research about the real benefits
for asylum seekers in Australia. The following link may help:

http://www.kochie.com.au/the-real-benefits-for-asylum-seekers-in-australia

There's plenty of information available on the web regarding
these issues - all you have to do is Google it.

Whatever you say, SPQR.

Frankly I can't be bothered arguing pedantic points this morning. I just thought it was interesting that when the forebears of the Australian Aboriginal race began their journey, the Europeans hadn't even branched off from Africa and the Middle-East. I find it interesting to follow the assembling of the jigsaw of human migration.

Carry on.

@ Lexi,

<< The above facts come from the Department of Immigration and Citizenship, the Refugee Council of Australia, and from the Red Cross>>

Mostly from the Refugee Council I’ll bet!

These are the same old lies we’ve been fed for decades. Sorry they won’t wash anymore.

See points 1 & 2 below:

1) “ Once an asylum seeker is recognised as a genuine refugee, after a long and highly scrutinized process”
2) “ To get a permanent residence as a refugee, the person has to prove they are a genuine refugee fleeing persecution, go through character, security”

Ok, if it was/is a “HIGHLY SCRUTINIZED PROCESS” & they need to “PROVE THEY ARE FLEEING PERSECUTION”

How did Capt Emad and at least seven of his confederates get past it?
..................................................................

@Poirot,

Agree with you on one thing at least.It's a fascinating subject.

Sounds like you're having a bad day (or had a rough last night).

Cheers

SPQR,

That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.

Cheers yourself : )

Dear SPQR,

Any system can be rorted. However is it fair
to taint an entire group because of the actions
of a few? That would be like saying that all
Australians are racists, that all Muslims are
fundamentalists, that all Collingwood football
players are hoodlums, that all conservatives
are stupid and so on.

BTW - if you don't like the links that I provided
do your own research - as I stated earlier -
there's plenty of links on the web. It is
important on these issues to sift the misinformation
from the actual facts. And misinformation regarding
asylum seekers abounds and is accepted by the
political conservatives and politicians who want
to play the political game to score brownie points
by playing to people's fears.

@Lexi,

<< misinformation regarding asylum seekers abounds and is accepted by the political conservatives and politicians>>

Now who’s generalizing ?

<BTW - if you don't like the links that I provided do your own research>>

OK, here’s a much more informative link:
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/they-come-on-one-way-tickets-speak-no-indonesian/?from=scroller&pos=5&referrer=home&link=text

Banjo, sorry old mate! but I have bad news for you.
I have every right to my views,as you do yours.
For give me, but why did you not ask why I too am just as unhappy with Gillard.
A telling question.
AH bloke, can you tell me why 60% of us in her case and 58% in Abbott's case think they are not doing a good job?
Are you going Green on me?
Trying to impose your minority views on me?
Abbott can not be trusted, he is on record admitting he lies.
He also has held EVERY sides views on Carbon tax, if he is right, Sunday will see some catastrophes.
Whyalla will disappear from the map, coal mines close down.
The bloke is an idiot and a lier.
Without an upper house we would this morning have law stopping the drownings.
NSW would not have shooters in National parks because two? 2? overrule an elected government.
My sin Bazz? big one mate! My words represent those of majority's not minority's.
Abbott should be first to step down Gillard next and every greens voter should ask is death better than a law the majority want?

Belly,
You avoid the issue of course. And I certainly not going green on you as I consider them idiots and useless as tits on a bull. But Labor preferences put them in the Senate. The greens are Labors coalition partners.

But the point is the greens are sticking to their policy (no matter how stupid) and the LIbs are sticking to theirs, which has a proven record.

It is Labor, under Rudd, that changed the game and Gillard has prelonged it. They both claimed that they would stop the boats coming and in fact have encouraged them. Rudd is very quiet on the issue and Gillard wont admitt to lieing and being wrong. Yet they can change it immediately.

You agree that the illegals are shonks and should be stopped but your shots are aimed at the wrong target. Do not try to introduce the strawman of state issues into this debate.

I submit that the greens and Labor do not care one iota about the deaths let alone our right to choose who comes here. Gone are the days when Labor deserved respect, Rudd and Gillard have seen to that.

Banjo I agree about the greens, but you should suck it up mate.
You and I every contributor so far, may not have the answer.
I suspect we all think we do under stand, but in fact few even begin to.
Government, opposition, have both let us down.
Labor first, its softer approach failed, bought about this flood, it is a flood.
You have seen me call for Gillards head many times, and again in this thread.
She has failed on this issue again and again.
*She should highlight Abbott's deceit, let his changes be introduced as law, for a 6 months trial*
IF IT WILL NOT WORK PROVE IT!
RELEASE PUBLICLY, every single word about the advice Nehru will no longer work.
Malaysia will, UNDERLINE the promises Malaysia has given.
Then go to the back bench, she is not a leaders bottom.
Abbott lied, over and again, during this debate,every debate.
He is unfit to clean the floors, you need to understand those words could have come, from a third of his party.
My anti Gillard ones from half the party in Parliament or in the rapidly DIEING ALP BRANCHES.
Banjo you know far less than you think given the facts you too may well beg both sides to get a leader, our country needs better.
The past saw the mad monk laughed at the future will see his side cry.
Gillards supporters have,, long ago bought wet cheeks to my party and empty branches, she must leave.
2 both sides wanting the same out come sold me and you out to the greens? how dare they?
Tony Abbott is far worse than my frank words say, they actually praise him by their softening the truth.

*I submit that the greens and Labor do not care one iota about the deaths*

I'd have to disagree with you there, Banjo. To me this is a classic
case of what psychologists call "emotional engulfment." Its quite well
understood. Some people just can't help themselves, unless they
are taught otherwise. They just follow their feelings and use any
excuse to justify them. Watching poor little Sarah bawling her
eyes out, made me feel like offering to pay for her to attend
a course in emotional intelligence, for IMHO she urgently needs one.

The fact that these kinds of people are deciding the future of the
nation, is quite scary really.

We really need more people with good reasoning skills in parliament.
The Greens are more the party of the emotionally overwhelmed and
Australia might yet pay a heavy price for this.

Labor does care about the deaths, Banjo.

Labor cares that Howard's legislation did not stop desperate people from drowning en route here, did not stop these hell bent on getting here from doing so, was inhumane, compromised our navy and prejudged those attempting to enter Australian waters as undeserving of asylum.

But greens, there I agree with you. They sleep soundly with pious principles intact while people die. That's the definition of not caring. They chose death for people over compromise and desrve to be run out of politics.

Interesting thing about Capt Emad, when four Corners caught up with him he wasn't sitting on all those tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars he would have purportedly made through his extensive networks and role as a people smuggler kingpin, nor was he sitting around living off social security cheques, he was out collecting bloody supermarket trolleys for God's sake.

And let me tell you it can be a real prick of a job especially in cold rainy weather. It seems he was on contract so paid per trolley rather than hours so you have to get cracking to make a quid in that game. It is a young man's line of work, and young is something the good Captain certainly isn't.

I'm not about to defend what else he was up to but he definitely wasn't shirking the hard yards

Most of the refugees I come in contact with are good hard working folk. I met a great young Sudanese lad last week who works full time at V-Line but is also studying full time for a commerce degree at uni. A Vietnamese chap I spent some time helping with English was working his days in a fruit shop and nights delivering pizzas. He is now gets up at 5am every day to get to Melbourne to study for his Medical English as he was a trained doctor before he came here.

One of my local GP's is a wonderful, deeply thoughtful Iraqi man who came as a refugee, he did some pretty average jobs before getting his papers.

Do some refugees like some Australians have a go at routing the system? More than likely, but I wouldn't be betting my house that the percentages are any greater.

But I'm eternally grateful and proud to be part of a nation that have given these people a chance, one I wager most refugees are grabbing with both hands.

Dear SPQR,

I've just read your last post to me and
Thank You for the link that you gave. It
was informative and - it asks a very fair question.
It is a question that I often bring up in our
discussions at home.

The compromise that the Government and the Independents
have come up with and one that was passed in the House of
Reps. may have forced Indonesia to come to the party, so
to speak. But now we'll never know. To my way of thinking
it would have been worth trying for 12 months to see
if it would work. Pressure could have been applied on
Indonesia's President when he visits our country shortly.

We'll now have to wait and see what happens next.
However, the entire fiasco in the Senate was as I stated
previously a disgrace - and hopefully people have now
seen just how little the Greens and the Opposition
care about the interests of this nation. Politics comes
first. Robert Menzies would be horrified.

Government has shown that they do not care what the majority of citizens want, both boats that sank were in Indonesian waters yet the people were bought to Australian land. Why were they not taken to Indonesia. How many people did Indonesia rescue and take to Indonesia? We pay millions of dollars to have the navy and customs patrol the waters whereas all they do is provide a free taxi service for the refugees, even if they are in Indonesian waters. Bring on the election the Greens and Labor will go.

care about the interests of this nation.
Lexi,
Do you honestly believe the unannounced & dubiously named refugees are the interest of this Nation ?

Well Belly old mate, I don't think that you can blame the debacle
that we face, all on the greens.

I remind you that it was your hero Rudd who shut down the old
asylum seeker solution, before he'd come up with a better option.

But let's look at other news which I read today. The lamb coop
which I supply, they export most of their product, is going to
have to pay around 300'000$ just for the carbon tax, which will
take them even closer to the edge, they are already under huge
pressure from the high Dollar etc. Then I turn on the news
and your Mr Howe is all happy as the Govt will pay Alcoa mega millions
to upgrade its old equipment. The Alcoa management in America would
be smiling bigtime! New equipment bankrolled by the Aussie taxpayer.

So the labour reality is: screw the Australian farmer and give the
money to American corporations! Under these circumstances,
why should I say a single good thing about them?

Dear Individual,

Solving the problem is in the interests of
this nation.

Solving the problem is in the interests of this nation.
Lexi,
The so-called problem was a hell of a lot smaller in 2007, so why did they make it so big ?
Did Labor think they could reduce the number of arrivals by making it easier to come here ?
Any village idiot will tell you that's an idiotic mentality.

Dear Yabby,

You claim "they export most of their product, is going to have to pay around 300'000$ just for the carbon tax". So Labour dropping the company tax rate, doubling the fuel rebate to businesses, plus other adjustments is not going to mitigate at all the Carbon Tax one iota? Labour sending them to the wall? Really?

As to $300,000 bucks could I invite you to recheck. I sit on a committee of a very large water board who uses a serious amount of energy for pumping from aquifers, recycling, drying of bio solids, and shifting water around. It puts them well into the top couple of hundred energy users in the country and their very well researched Carbon price impact was $1,200,000 per annum. This added way less than 1% to people's bills.

But back to the topic.

Dear individual,

Is 'good for this nation' can often be a code word for 'less out of my pocket'?

Or do you have another definition?

Yabby,
I do not believe Hanson-Young, other greens or thePM and Labor parliamentarians, care about the lives lost. Lots of females, and some males, can turn on the water works at the drop of a hat. The PM asking the Senators to 'examine their consience' sounds very hallow to me. The simple fact is that Labor could have prevented most of the 800 deaths by reverting to the previous policy when Rudd was still PM and again after Gillard took over. They must have known their error then. They have no compassion.

Fancy Luciferase still peddling the myth that the previous policy did not stop the boats. Get real lad, look at the record. the boats stopped comming and started comming again when Rudd put the welcome mat out again. Do not try that push factor garbage with me. There were still ME illegals still living in Indonesia just waiting for the policy change.

Am now told the illegals do not destroy their passports, they mail them to friends and relos here so they can use them later to return to their original country after getting permanent residence here. Also it seems that most of the ones that drowned last week were Pakistanies, so when did Pakistan become war torn that people needed to flee from.

Did I see that? we should have let them drown?
We all should remember SOME opinions are wrong, SOME uninformed.
The nearest Indonesian boats was many hours more than Australia and private shipping was, laws of the sea demand RIGHTLY we help.
We are not talking about the costs, why? because they would be inflammatory but true.
We are not talking about how much a refugee gets same answer.
We ignore the long term SS to SOME, we forget our own cold this winter unable to pay for heating.
COMPRERMISE ALP policy is better than Abbott's.
But Gillard as a last resort should recall Parliament, pass Morrison's amendments NOW!
DEMANDING a review of other answers after her face saving DELAYED attempts to stop deaths.
Abbott is a heartless human,CHRISTIAN? unconcerned about these lives, lets put him behind the steering wheel not the soggy brained Greens, A party prepared to kill those it says we treat badly.
At best greens are useless.

Or do you have another definition?
Lexi,
In actual fact I do. It's called looking after your own first & don't make me responsible for others' mindlessness. I am willing to help the victims of this mindlessness. I am not willing to aid this mindlessness to create more mindlessness. I am not willing to help destroy my life because of aiding mindlessness. The refugee flows are borne of mindlessness over there & by mindlessness over here. I am in no way willing to further this mindlessness by helping to streamline the flow by supporting the present policies.
In case you're not aware of this but there are times & the refugee flow is such a time when you have to be cruel to be kind. i.e. fight fire with fire. Unless of course you don't mind that your children will become refugees themselves.

Dear individual,

You really are a fearful little fellow aren't you.

So a few thousand refugees are going to destroy your life and turn our children into refugees themselves?

My God, get a backbone for crying out loud.

*Labour sending them to the wall? Really?*

That was not what I claimed, Csteele, you should read what I
actually wrote. Labour will certainly take them closer to the edge
and that is becoming more and more difficult in the meat industry.

The figures are in fact correct, but clearly the economics of the
meat industry and associated costs, are not your strong point.
Given the many head winds, having a Govt which puts the boots into
them as well, is not exactly good governance.

Banjo, I agree with you, many policiticians are lawyers, so good
trained actors, be that in court or parliament. But I think that
Hanson Young is one of those emotionally overwhelmed types and so
are a number of the greens. If you ever get a chance to read
Daniel Goleman's "Emotional Intelligence", he analyses how the
emotional circuits function, its all black and white and describes
their behaviour amazingly accurately. So if the glove fits etc.

Csteele, the refugee debate is not about a few refugees. Take note
that Marylin, the Greens and others when pushed, admit to an open
door policy of unlimited numbers. So how many million are your
limit?

Dear Individual,

Talking about mindlessness.

We had a perfect example of it recently from our
politicians in the Senate. Here the Opposition and
the Greens had the opportunity to try something
for 12 months that may well have worked. Now we
will never know. They could have made their
objections known in Parliament but in the interests
of at least doing something - they choose their
egos, (my way or the highway), and chose inaction.
Now these are people who are supposed to come up
with answers in times of crisis. Their answer was
inaction. How sad is that. How really mindless is that.

Heaven help this country if we will have to rely on
them in times of acute crisis and they choose inaction
for whatever reasons. Scary!

Dear Yabby,

I'm calling you out on this. For me there is no way your co-op will be making $300,000 in Carbon Tax payments. It only applies to companies producing over 25,000 tonnes of CO2 per site for which they have to stump up $575,000 before allowances. 

If you want to talk in terms of indirect costs then possibly but that is not what you posted.

Show me the money.

Dear Lexi,

"Mr Palmer openly defied Mr Abbott on asylum-seeker policy, arguing for onshore processing of refugees. "I can follow my conscience and wouldn't be following Mr Abbott like a lamb to the slaughter," he said. "What I seek is a country that respects human rights.""
The Australian

Isn't Clive Palmer an interesting fellow.

Dear csteele,

Yes, Clive Palmer certainly is an interesting man.
I recently watched an interview with him on TV.
Much of what he said made a great deal of sense
to me - especially about certain lobbyists and what they
should and should not be able to do. He strikes me
as a man who shouold be in parliament. A man who
would represent his constituents very well.

Yabby at times you and I clash like young bulls.
But a basic ordinary Aussie male thing can be found in us too.
We get close on this one, no need to say this, except if free speech is true, because this is true.
IF only men judged boat people we would have none.
They would not die at sea, we you and I may well go back to verbal tennis.
But I think we, not you and I Australia, would increase refugee in takes,by about double todays quota.
Picked on skills and ability to make it, not wet cheeks and sympathy.
You are right, to Dennie it is, sorry insanity, if we say come the door is open?
I earn contempt for my view LABOR has to dump Gillard, but how many men would vote for her?
Now we split ,it is my view Abbott, his policy's, are the biggest threat to our country's unity ever.
So yes Labor should return to its roots dump Gillard fake a break down, what ever it takes, grab the high moral ground.
Recall Parliament put Morrison's amendments and fight hard for Malaysia IF IT GETS BACKING from Gillards get out group.
Men will not except or vote for failure here.

*Show me the money*

Csteele, if it costs the coop directly or indirectly, does not matter
a jot. Fact is, it is increasing costs and export industries
cannot reclaim those costs from consumers.

Meatworks use huge amounts of electricity, especially modern ones,
to operate complex machinery, for chilling, for freezing and all
the rest. Apart from labour, its the largest processing cost that
they have. Then packaging material manufacturers will pass on their
costs. They use elecricity too, etc.

The CEO of Wammco, which is a growers coop, not a company, reports
to the 2000 or so farmers who supply them. He's a smart man who
knows how to work out his costs. Fact is that rather then have
that money to spend, to make the place a bit more efficient, which
is where most of any profits go, Wammco now have to spend that
kind of money for no benefit at all, just poor Govt policy.

My point was simple. WA farmers get screwed, Alcoa get millions.
There is no way that you can call that good Govt.

Belly old mate, over a beer or two we'd probably agree on most
things. As you know, I am no Abbott fan and I've made that clear
in my posts on OLO. But quite frankly, between the carbon tax and
the refugee debacle, at present the Govt is frigging hopeless and
really deserve the boot.

So a few thousand refugees are going to destroy your life and turn our children into refugees themselves?
Lexi,
not so fast. Go to Europe for a few weeks & you'll find yourself becoming a little less cavalier with your replies. You really should refrain from dismissing actual experience especially if your own is rather limited in that field. I've been there done that, you obviously haven't.
As for "get a backbone for crying out loud." Better tell your ALP mates to get one.
Mine's ok, you just don't like the strength of it.

Yabby true but in fact it is my view the carbon tax is a Storm in Gillards tea cup.
She never took the time to explain why she changed her mind.
A known weakness she has on many issues she takes people for granted.
She by being a poor counter puncher, and worse at explaining, not even on the map in saying sorry.
Let Abbott brand her lier, look she is useless but did not knowingly lie, and carbon tax will come to many more country's
She remains Labors problem.
And if we do not replace her [we will]we are not fit to govern.
I know I had no need to say men think differently than women, but it is true!
I see daily, dreams Labor can win, by ignoring the electorate, it can not.
We have great women posters, but they do not like, some, me saying what the man on the street says.
Right now, in my view picking ANY WOMAN to lead a party is a death sentence due to Gillard and the two fools leading the mad hatter greens.

Labor should return to its roots.
Belly,
If only you could have woken up to that a long time ago when we did & we could have saved a lot of posing here. I for one am glad you're starting to see the light. . Good on you. All you need to do now is to get Abbott off your mind & become constructive.

Dear Individual,

You really should read the posts more
carefully before you attack any body.
You made a mistake with me. I posted no
such thing. Go back and find out who did.

Apology accepted!

I feel worse Lexi.
The gentle man praised me, back after I have another shower.
Bony Doon day!
Sad to see so many have disappeared over night.
Truth is not always welcome.
We stick to our views but in the end truth will remain.
In politics,every side devalues truth, if they find it inconvenient.
Here we, if we value truth, must ask how many of these refugees are starving, what war are they fleeing, how do they pay all that money to come.
How come this country repatriates American, Irish,British, 457 visa holders or tourists, because? their visa has run out!
If those Chinese family's with established jobs and community links we sent home.
If they come back by boats will we let them stay.
We , every one of us, stick to our views DEMANDING the other side give in.
Do we not know no change can ever come by that?
Simplistic? ok but stop the boats.
Let more come only after we select them.
Consider not just our own thoughts but the majority's wishes.
If majority's are unable to rule we risk the end of Democracy.

Lexi,
my sincere apologies, my bad.

Dear Belly,

In 1950 the population of Australia was about
8 million. Today, its getting close to 22 million.
People migrated, fled persecutions, came by boat
and plane, risked their lives fleeing Vietnam,
and other areas of unrest, and the population grew.
That is the natural process we experience all over
the world - including Australia.

It will continue to happen and we have to learn to
put scare tactics and politics aside and recognise
the human aspect in all of this. Point scoring by
the Opposition will not reduce the population growth
or stop people arriving. We have to deal with reality
as adults and take our fair share of responsibility
if we want to be respected globally.

In every democratic process there is compromise.
If there is not compromise - there is dictatorship.
Clive Palmer very clearly stated that under Mr Abbott
we are looking at totalitarian control where everybody
has to do what they're told. We saw an example of this
in Parliament this week. What would the country be if
we all followed Mr Abbott's example and said - we won't
do anything that we don't agree with. It would be total
chaos. We now have a Committee of experts who hopefully
will be able to make recommendations that our elected
representatives will be able to accept. Because to continue
to refuse to compromise - dishonours us all.

under Mr Abbott
we are looking at totalitarian control where everybody
has to do what they're told.
Lexi,
Isn't that the scenario now under the ALP ?

Dear Individual,

No, it's not. The ALP showed that they were
willing to compromise to achieve a solution
to asylum seekers. The Opposition and the
Greens were not.

lexi,
The ALP is not willing to compromise at all, they never were. They simply are so incompetent that they're left with no option other than give in to some sense. They simply aren't' giving in to sense enough hence no solution as yet and Abbott gets the blame.
Give it another year & most of the eligible voters will (hopefully) see more & more sense.

*The ALP showed that they were
willing to compromise to achieve a solution
to asylum seekers.*

Oh come on, Lexi. This is simply a huge ego contest between
two lawyers. Losing face is not what either of them plan to
do, but right now the ALP is in between a rock and a hard place
on this one and they know it. So rather than admit that, they
form a committee! Classic political manouvering, but some
gullible punters fall for the spin.

Dear Individual,

I'm pleased that you at least do recognise that
the ALP is trying to "give in to some sense,"
as you put it. Which is something that cannot be
said for the Opposition who are totally mindless,
totally!

Dear Yabby,

I have to acknowledge your expertise - when it
comes to spin. Full marks on that score!

Deat Yabby,

Thought not. So the Coop is not paying a cent of direct Carbon Tax, full stop.

The power company will say 'we are paying $300,000 in Carbon Tax on the electricity we supply WAMMCO'. WAMMCO will say 'we are paying $300,000 for extra for the power from the power company because of the Carbon Tax', the wholesale purchasers will say 'we are paying a combined total of $300,000 extra for our lamb from WAMMCO' and Tony Abbott will stand shoulder to shoulder with the lot of them bleating on about this terrible tax.

But there isn't $900,000 in carbon tax being handed over, it is $300,000. Who ultimately pays? The consumer of course.

Lets take a more informed look at the figures then.

Last year WAMMCO turned over $124,000,000 dollars and spent $2,493,000 on energy and water. Having a fair idea of the amount of water processing operations use I will be generous and attribute 75% of this cost to strictly energy. Let's call it 1.9 million. While I don't think they will be paying anywhere near $300,000 on that amount of energy I will run with the figure for arguments sake.

So for every dollar of lamb sold at the wholesale level the Carbon Tax is going to add 0.03 cents?

Yet the 2000 farmers the CoOP represents are going to get a doubling of their fuel rebate, a tripling of the tax free threshold, a compensatory family rebate, and a rise in the figure of current year instant write off assets to $6,500.

Perhaps your man should do the figures on whether his farmers will be better or worse off under the tax.

Or better still perhaps he should concentrate on maintaining the very good work of his predessor who has taken the CoOp from strength to strength. It is doing remarkably well and good on them.

Perhaps you should be better directing your ire at the Tasmanian government for selling cut price carbon tax free power to large mining companies forcing a price hike of 10% on the poor consumer.

Dear Lexi,

I was going to pull individual up if he did it a third time, I promise. :)

I think I would enjoy Clive Palmer as an independent but not with his hands on the levers.

However what do you think about his idea of flying the asylum seekers here to be processed?

There are some real positives.

It would save lives.

The government could dictate that they all had to fly Qantas and purchase a return ticket so if their claims were not found to be valid they could be flown back at their own expense. Might give the share price a lift after the Scottish git trashing it so comprehensively.

It would be cheaper for the refugees than the current people smuggler rates.

I dare say even giving the increasing contracting out of Qantas maintenance overseas it will be safer than leaky boats.

It would dramatically reduce the expense of processing if done onshore.

We could get some humanity back in our politics.

I do have visions though of Belly going belly to belly with Clive and calling him a namby pamby sissy boy for caring. I think I know who might come off second best.

*Who ultimately pays? The consumer of course*

Ah, I can just see it now, Csteele. *Dear Overseas customer, due
to the new Australian carbon tax, you will just have to cough up
more than the world price, so that we can pay our Govt for their
carbon tax.* Hehe Csteele, overseas marketing is not our strong
point :)

*It is doing remarkably well and good on them.*

Actually they have been working 3 days a week, the CEO pointed out
that they would be broke in 6 months if they had not dramatically
cut prices to growers. And the plant manager pointed out that "The whole carbon tax issue is proving to be a nightmare for Australia's
meat processing industry and it would not be suprising if there were some casualties"

As to tax deductions, all they do is compensate farmers for increased bills, just like any other taxpayer. That hardly justifies farmers
who export their produce being screwed, whilst Alcoa is paid millions. I remind you that we all have yet to be compensated for
fiscal drag.For that we'd need Costello back, not the present mob
of turkeys.

Dear Yabby,

I'm not saying this is the case for your man but I venture there will be a lot of under performing CEOs and managers who will trot out the Carbon Tax as an excuse.

In most cases it will flag either under performance or some sort of smoke and mirrors.

Over supply has dropped lamb prices by nearly a third so the Carbon Tax is a bees dick of nothing in the scheme of things. In fact it is one hundredth of the price depreciation.

Yet it should be noted that lamb exports for the first five months are up 20% over the corresponding period last year.

There is competition from the Kiwis as their European markets contract forcing them into some of ours.

If your bloke doesn't acknowledge these factors and instead keeps banging on about the tax we are left to draw our own conclusions.

Farming families are going to be measurably better off in relative terms when all things are taken into account with the adjustments around the tax yet you are flipping off the gains as nothing.

Only the agenda driven myopic windbags are going to continue to make a case that the tax is a calamity to the processing industry.

*Farming families are going to be measurably better off in relative terms when all things are taken into account with the adjustments around the tax yet you are flipping off the gains as nothing.*

Oh yeah? Last time I checked, it was going to cost dairy farmers
around 10% of their net income. Because of course a great deal of
that milk is turned into milk powder and cheese, using electricity.

Not only that, virtually every farm input will have its price
affected, as suppliers pass on their costs.

Farming families will in fact be worse affected than others, for
of course they are the backbone of the small non mining export
sector which still exists in this country, getting less by the day.

They can't pass on their costs, which is my point. Your answer is
"Oh what do a few extra costs matter". You clearly have no idea
of how sharp the pencil has to be to exist in this sector, where
EVERY cost matters. Good govt is not about screwing them some
more, to make them even less competitive.

We have two standards here: Screw the farmers as they don't vote for
us. Give millions to Alcoa, as it will win us a few brownie points
with their workers and the unions want it.What is fair about that?

Lexi I still regard you as a Friend.
Do you however in handing me that crap, know you insult me?
Now stay calm.
I expect my views and my right to them to be under valued by the red necks here not you.
Your post informs me the problem is me, I do not understand, only you and those who support you do.
And the constant defense of the love of my life, my reason for living.
The Australian Labor Party infers my wish, that it return to its true path, Governing, is betrayal.
I back my understanding, the night before Kevin won office I assured you we would win, you said you hoped so.
My wish, always is to win, to never hand this country over to such as Abbott.
We glowed with pride at polling saying Kevin would win.
Are we that shallow we ignore the ones warning of our demise? our near death?that Gillard can never turn us around?
Lexi, here in this thread I have asked that we double refugee in take.
In effect, less than 18 months from now, Conservative policy's will rule this and every subject.
In part because we are refusing to COMPRERMISE WHILE WE CAN.
I for this blame the greens, the nice folk and believe Gillard must re call the house pass conservatives amendments and take the high moral ground.
Steam rolling greens and the unrealistic nice folk at the same time.

Dear Yabby,

Gawd mate.

So lamb's out and you have switched to dairy?

Sheesh. Don't have time to do the figures right now but will try to get to them, however I suspect they will tell a similar story to the lamb tale, its all a bloody beat up.

*So lamb's out and you have switched to dairy?*

Nope, I simply refuted your claim that farmers would be better off,
which you pulled clean out of your arse, with no figures to justify
it. The dairy example has been well documented in the rural press.
That is just yet another farming industry being hit.

You see Csteele, carbon tax is just the start. Then we had a 40%
increase in AQIS charges, again farmers pay. Then we have 12%
super, more costs for the industry. It now costs twice as much
to kill a cow in Australia compared to America. Next you will
be wondering why we put them on a boat.

Most of Australia is already unviable globally in doing anything.
Rising costs and politicians who have never run a business have
a huge amount to do with it.

Is there no way to find positives.

Many refugees would be skilled, and others could be trained in skills we need. Remember Gina H and her wish to bring in workers.

The problems people seem to identify are social welfare and lack of willingness to integrate within wider society.

Detention time could be better used in training, and/or adapting existing skills, learning English and, importantly, our way of life, and that certain cultural/religious practices are indeed acceptable, others not.

The success of each wave of refugees/migrants to this country - including the cameleers of the 19th/early 20th century - was their integration into society, adapting to the dominant culture, whilst contributing cultural positives of their own. Indeed, in the latter case, we actually adopted these.

Muslim cameleers (Afghanis and Pakistanis) not only contributed greatly to Australia, but integrated extremely well. An advertisement by cameleers at that time invited all-comers to their end of Ramadan/Christmas feast to try their different foods. These men were obviously very intelligent with a great sense of humour, and importantly, a sense of proportion.

As I recall, the Snowy River Scheme was manned by immigrants to this country.

Danielle,
you're bringing up a past of when people simply looked for a better life. There was no agenda then.

Dear Belly,

I am surprised that you've taken offence at
my post. It was not directed at your opinion
or meant to be any sort of a criticism of
your views. I respect your views. I was merely
trying to point out that the sooner our
politicians can put their political agendas
aside - the sooner they may be able to achieve a positive
outcome for all concerned.

Anyway, I shall now go and ponder what I could have
said differently so that I wouldn't be misunderstood
in the future.

Individual,

I could possibly be naive ...

Non-white migration is not new in Europe, with generations now integrated well. However, what we are seeing is an entirely new scenario.

It can be laid entirely at the feet of the PC brigade, who have privileged a group of people above the wider society. The result was confusion to most migrants, and opportunism and entitlement seen by others who pushed very hard.

The backlash was inevitable ... many saw this occurring. The situation is indeed grim.

Lady's and gentlemen please understand I rarely intend to offend, but I do,and for that I am sorry.
No gain comes from deliberately doing that.
But non too from hidden my views.
Let me divert this thread briefly then return to subject.
This mornings polls are clear,Labor,wounded in my state by not enough with the guts to take them on over the last 3 years of DREADFUL HORRIBLE GOVERNING.
Is still on the nose,once the power house ,we installed Rudd, we are but a tent flapping in a storm.
QLD, tainted by one election win too many, one wrong leader ten useless self servers in a lost government, will not win a seat, in its self take federal Labor from power.
Then add Rudd, tell me, who knew he was to be unseated over night?
Who of us who are stricken by fear at the thought Abbott will become Prime Minister or his replacement,still think SUSSEX STREET BETRAYED US
Labors task is not to further marginalize its self.
Not to be the best opposition and longest we ever had.
Not to protect Gillard.
Not to tell 55% of voters we know better.
Right now lies are selling for Abbott like hot cakes.
Once 74% said we need action on carbon, today on just this issue we are about to be thrown out of office.
If you want Labor re elected SHOUT!
Dump Gillard now
Re call Parliament, take those amendments tell the world it will not work.
Watch it not work, while waiting for the report wedge Abbott.
Push the greens away from my party's breast, they can not live without our blood.
Teach them power is useless unless used in a good way.

Here is how I see this issue boat people/refugees.
We to talk of it should leave our biases in the bucket at the door, notice it is a very big bucket.
Lets also forget fairness and equity, humanity and pain and suffering.
Now why would I say that?
Australia can not fix the worlds problems.
Not even our own.
In praise of both the last government and this we are usually the worlds third biggest in-taker of refugees.
Who, forget children over board sev x, does not understand, right or wrong John Winston Howard won an election by understanding this country better than Labor on boat people?
In your realistic view can Labor not stop the boats and EVER WIN AN ELECTION?
We are talking about this if we fail its Conservatives/Liberal policy's we install by our failure to move toward the Australian people.
Why are we not talking costs,we could pay for dental care mental health care and house the homeless with change from mandatory detention cost.
And in truth MALAYSIA ENDS THE BOATS AND DETENTION.
We may send four times 800 take four times 4.000 but we would stop it.
We then get to take more but say who what skills what chance of settling here.
Love all boat people but hear too the voices driving this country toward Long term Conservative government will leave a shattered mess the ALP on the beach trying to find enough who will rebuild the party.
My ALP must rebuild before that wreck dump the woman, pass Abbott's amendments distance our selves from greens,a party that will destroy all but conservatives by its dysfunctional blind stupidity.

Non-white migration is not new in Europe, with generations now integrated well.
Danielle,
Hmmh,
perhaps you know more than the people I speak with & who live there. I even recall from a few decades ago that the then immigrants have integrated well. But I'm not referring to them, I'm referring to the now influx. Where the wasn't an agenda there is one now & that is the disconcerting episode of the show.
The new influx has nothing to do with seeking a better life on the contrary.
Many simply don't comprehend the real scenario & when one tries to enlighten them they reject the explanation due to sheer ignorance. You see much of the problem is within.

I am disappointed that some are trying to change the debate, however a sure sign they can not compete in the real one.
Migration has no roll in this debate.
It is about illegal boat arrivals.
Bought here by criminals.
Drowning at sea.
I challenge the word refugee, it is not one that describes this criminal act.
Very few are truly refuges.
most may end up as migrants but they imposed them selves on us.
Be aware those sot folk are imposing on us too.
No migrant should ever be able to self select.

Did any one else skip a heart beat this morning?
180 boat people, what if they died today.
How many more will, some for sure.