6 shootings in a week, 60 in a year.
We are told a drug war is behind it and the middle east crime squad mostly investigating.
It is not the first such wave, but it is the worst.
We know of the Razor gang crimes, before we or most of us lived.
We saw the Asian crime wars and home invasions.
Early rape gangs Australian then other.
I considered this thread,before trying to get it started.
We can if you wish focus on race,it is not the main issue.
Or talk of two things with may be more substance, and maybe more responsibility for these anti social crimes against us all.
First drugs, why not go further, not the warm and cuddly decriminalize it.
But take it away from criminals totally.
Legalize it supply it, to holders of Medical certificates.
See it taken in front of Doctors,so no second distributions can take place
We can expand on that if we get a start.
PRISONS, no not the lunacy of no prisons or less of them, punishment should be equal to the crime.
But is the cost of imprisoning offenders playing a part in sentencing?

Dear Belly,

As I see it our three big failures in controlling crime are the non-recognition of the connection between poverty and crime, the attempt to legislate morality and the non-recognition of the societal consequences of our acts.

One reason Australia’s crime rate is lower than that of the US is that there is less of a gap between rich and poor. Actions to reduce that gap further and to promote more equality are actions against crime. Possibly better public schools would help.

The sensible actions you recommend against drugs cannot be taken because too many people regard taking drugs as immoral and therefore possession of drugs is treated as a crime. It shouldn't be.

Casinos are regarded as an easy way of getting revenue without raising taxes. I don’t think the social and economic consequences of the casinos are adequately considered when another one is allowed.

Earl L. Grinols & David B. Mustard, 2006. "Casinos, Crime, and Community Costs,"The Review of Economics and Statistics, MIT Press, vol. 88(1), pages 28-45, April. is just one of the many studies of the relationship between crime and casinos. Australia might benefit financially by shutting down all the casinos. The cost of dealing with the problems caused by casinos might be greater than the revenue from the casinos.

The new government in Queensland will probably approve Clive Palmer’s casino.

Davidf;
The problem of the gun crime is not poverty but riches.
Most of them seem to be about proceeds of crime, ripping drug shipments off each other or money owed.
Also the area involved is at the heart of the car rebirthing racket.
Incidentally it is almost entirely Lebanese looking people who are
involved. How much the Christian Lebanese are involved is hard to tell
but the family women are usually dressed as Moslems. Sometimes the
younger women are dressed normally.

Remember Lakemba police station was shot up by Moslem Lebanese when
the pressure on car rebirthing got too heavy.
I heard a funny story from police on how they used to pick them up
when they were out stealing cars to order. Wish I could tell you.

Latest news, 16 year old from that area arrested armed with gun.
The Airport murderer gets 28 years.
Probably sent to the Gouldburn Max with his rapist countrymen.

I had a job done here by a Lebanese tradesman and the first thing he
said to me was that he was a Christian and that they had nothing
to do with the Lebanese criminals. He was clearly very embarrassed
by it all. Fancy everytime he does a job for a skippy he has to do
a routine to distance himself from his countrymen.
He did a marvelous job of a very difficult job and by using a
different technique did it a lot cheaper than two other quotes.

No one need get on their high horse because I called it as it is.
It is a problem of the wrong sort of immigrants.

How can we blame Tony Abbott for this one?

Bazz,
You said,"No one need get on their high horse because I called it as it is.
It is a problem of the wrong sort of immigrants".

You are dead right. We have allowed immigration of those groups that cannot/will not integrate into our society. Basicly because of the flawed ideology of multiculturalism and a non-discrimatory immigration policy supported by both major parties.

PM Fraser ignored advice that the Lebanese muslims would not integrate and this is the result, even after 3 benerations. They are contemptous of our laws and police.

There are other groups as well that will not integrate. Those that hate others and those that practice FGM, forced marriage, polygomy and other alien cultures. How long before we have a validated 'honour killing'?

We should have been, and now still should have, immigration that excludes those groups that, from our experience, have shown they cannot be part of our society. I care not what nationality or religion they are, if they have shown they will not abide by our standards they should not be here.

Obviously these crims ignore gun laws, so gun control does not work. I do not know what else the police can do about the present situation. We have brought this on ourselves through multiculturalism.

Runner only you found a link, and it says much about you.
Let me be clear, I think good ideas get side lined because PC and the softly softly mob get in the way.
And that poverty has nothing to do with this gun crime.
Unfortunately a culture all of its own, not racial, has.
My thoughts are these on drugs.
Total control, still illegal to drive and every thing else while affected.
Medical Certificate and supervised use.
Price controlled so as to under cut any possible black market.
Taxed, that to be used to cover costs to community.
Mandatory prison term for ANY black market drug use or trafficking.
Unlike the PC brigade, I do not think we brand addicts as victims.
Stop putting them in prison ,for drugs ok, but if they profit from being addicted,say to unable to work , make them accountable
It is true middle eastern crime gangs are driving this today.
In the nature of humans tomorrow it may be others.
Separatism is not helping.
As we get, no matter what side we follow more weary of politicians why not see some true innovation from them?
Drugs sold on the streets kill, the money feeds back,as it always has and will,to the very rich.
It grabs police and politicians along the way corruptly turning them in to filth.
We can only improve by saying enough, standing in the way of reform is the self interests of the corrupt.

The second but vital part of this problem, therefore the thread is terms spent in prison.
I knew the streets of Granville and Auburn, my cousins, all 13 of them spent most of their childhoods in Lakemba, all WASPS.
It is said on those streets today you get 3 crimes before time, in prison.
And the first time is easy and short.
In the country some saw parents come from, or came them selves such crimes would see much worse sentencing.
We, maybe driven by the costs of prison, seem uncaring about crime and its victims.
Whole generations have found new ways to help the offender and ignore the victim.
Here that in the back ground? a rumble of indignation at my words starting already.
From the upper and middle class suburbs unaffected,who never even pass these crime capitals on the way to work.
If criminals have the means make them pay all costs of prison.
Higher sentencing for crimes that kill will too see less of them.
I think a whole level of judges, Magistrates, should be found from within average people.
As leaned in Suburban life as the law.
much more to come.
But law and order need not be blind and stupid as it seems now, nore should it flog.
It however should spend more time defending the victim than aggressors.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8448248
For interstate people maybe we are not as well known for our troubles.
But in researching I goggled the threads subject and got us, this thread is linked.
The link above is just one, but I did not find one that truly describes the fear.
At a market day,a stall holder who like me once lived in that area swapped story's of what it once was like.
We both went back, often in our past jobs.
To within a block of each other to just look.
One of my visits was the day after a murder by gun.
Blood still was on the road, right out side his old school tuck shop.
Real blood death and fear.

Now Belly I agree with you.

Let us get serious about the crimes and impose proper sentences.

I would do this before even considering decriminalising drug taking.

If we think supplying drugs kills then why are dealers not charged with attempted murder? The current firearms offences should be increased four fold. Anyone found in possession of an unlicenced handgun should get life. Let us get real with sentencing. Even if it means building more jails. Confiscation of all assetts should be normal practice of the courts.

The 55 year sentences seem to have stopped the gang rapes in the same area. Proof enough that stiff penalties work. Do not forget deportation of non citizens that are convicted.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/Lebanese_crime.htm
I feel justified in posting this link.
Understand some will use it to convict me.
But if 90% of the crime I highlight here is not from this base I will except the charge.
A matter such as this should not be subject to PC.
Solutions come after first finding the problem.
The problem will not be race, not alone, but something within a culture from some races, even if made here it is fact.

It's not poverty in Australia. It's laziness and greed.

It's easier for me to sell drugs and steal things than it is for me to get up at 4:30am 5 days a week and get home somewhere between 6 and 7pm. But, being the sort of person I am I go with the latter. I believe I would sleep better that way.

Shootings are a consequence of the drug and crime trade. They are for teaching people lessons. Once in awhile via accident or just some scumbag just being a scumbag, innocent people get shot too.

I made some generalisations in an earlier post, but I really wouldn't know what to do in the area Belly described. I can stay away from there, but the people who live around there can't. The government can make tougher laws, but when they hanged pickpockets in England pickpockets were operating in the crowds watching the executions.

I'm sorry I posted.

Hi there Belly...

You raise some quite interesting issues with this thread, particularly the impact that illicit drugs have on the criminallity
that is awash in the state of NSW.

I could go on (ad infinitum) in substantial detail as to what the essential problems are, but I won't.

One issue that's ALWAYS caused me some major grief - the coppers spend hundreds of man hours, in order to catch a crook or crooks, only to have 'em walk free from court, with yet another warning or less.

You put in a terrific brief - dot your i's and cross your t's, and some 'mealy mouth' magistrate will cut 'em loose with just a warning, a bond, or enter into some useless 'diversionary programme'.

Thus, you're simply adding yet another hapless individual into the 'revolving door' justice system, in this state.

Belly it's a joke. And I'm jolly glad that I'm retired and out of the mess that is laughingly described as - Policing the State of NSW.

Dear Belly,

Studies have shown that the highest crime rates
occur in the most deprived sections of large
cities. These are the areas where it's most
difficult to train children to become law-abiding
citizens. Such areas have the highest rate of
broken homes. Even in many homes where both parents
are present, emotional conflicts, and health and
financial problems affect family life. Slum areas
usually have the poorest schools and the highest
unemployment rates. These neighbourhoods have much
run-down, over-crowded housing and poor recreation
facilities.

For many young city-dwellers, the excitement of the
streets provides the principal escape from boredom
and seemingly unsolvable problems. These streets
are also the scene of much vice and crime - drug
use and sale, gambling, prostitution,
public drunkenness, and acts of violence. Law enforcement
in the inner city is difficult, partly because too few
police officers patrol the neighbourhoods. In addition,
many of the people fear the police and refuse to
cooperate with them.

Most residents of the high-crime slum areas of many
large cities are members of minority ethnic groups.
As a result, the crime rate for such minority groups
is higher than that for the majority group. The
minority groups are also more likely to become victims
of crimes. This tendency need not mean that such
minorities are more criminal. It could arise because
the lower income and less privileged social groups to
which they belong tend to bear the brunt of law
enforcement. Also, it may reflect drinking patterns,
or the fact that because of the life styles of such
groups, they are most likely to be on the streets and
in contact with police.

In many cases, most crimes are committed by boys and
young men. They are particularly likely to commit
burglaries, car thefts, and robberies.

This is a complex issue and one that doesn't have
easy answers or solutions.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/the-criminals-code-and-vigilante-violence/story-e6freuzi-1226324307538
A very different view than mine but no less frightening
Another shot last night.

o sung wo we would get along.
Lexi I do not agree, I actually think criminals activity takes place in any environment.
Only the crimes are different.
As David says he can stay away, many can not.
We will not truly debate this issue or see it, without being just a little what ever the opposite of Politically Correct is, I tend to think honest.
Auburn Gillford,Granville, all ex or maybe still NSW housing commission post ww2 areas.
For a short time in my childhood, after in my teens, then briefly with family returned from the bush, I lived there.
It was working class cosmopolitan but good and it welcomed you.
Read the tragic case of that poor little child ,stolen from her bed,it could have been any of the above places.
Mum and dad, not working 11 children on welfare.
Dad said to be, but not proven a drug dealer.
Such family's are common.
From them , a seeming self inflicted hardship, comes the crime.
I am fearless, but would not consider ever living in those places or haveing a beer in my old stamping grounds, Vauxall inn Royal Plastos Rosehill more pubs that once I knew every drinker in.
We should not fear change, should confront it, see o sung wo the truth, every day a silly lower court person sets a crying youth free yet again.
To go out side laugh and do it all over again.
TAX drugs tax the criminals by making them pay for time in prison.
Make an effort to stop corruption and why not??
PC stands between us and improvement.
No one grew up more hungry that me, more ashamed of my lack of shoes and better clothing, but I did not take to selling drugs or hurting people.
Mum and Dad saw to that

Lexi, you are way off track.
The areas involved are good quality housing, much having been rebuilt
with a mixture of unit blocks and single house blocks.
My wife grew up in the area and it was always, as Belly said a normal
Australian suburb, single level houses on 700 sq metre blocks
of land. It never was a slum at any time.
It is now no longer part of Australia.

How long before a police no go area becomes an Australian no go area ?

I read that link Belly provided and it was well worth the time to read.
I can see no alternative but to deport all Lebanese moslems, whether
born here or not. Probably not practicle, but what is the alternative
bigger, much bigger gaols ?
I have a remote relative that is a gaol warder and he tells me that
the gaols are run internally by the moslems with Asians as an
opposition group. Australians inmates are outnumbered and bullied.

Back in the old convict days those that committed crime were sent
to either Van Diemens Land or Norfolk Island and not allowed to return.
Can we not do something similar ?

Is there another island we could use instead ?
After their sentence is finished they would have to stay on the island
unless they wished to leave the country altogether.

I have a little worry in that I have noticed a few moslems appearing
in this area. I just hope they are escapees and not bringing their
criminals with them.

Reading back on what I have just written it all seems over the top
but what else can we do, wait until it reaches the point where we
end up having to bring the army in to deal with and armed insurrection ?

Sounds like the Middle East ! Hmmm oh yes of course !

Fatherless children and a failure to give a smack on the bum when needed has led us to the point where crimminals know they can get away with just about anything today. Judges re inforce this humanistic doctrine. Thankfully unless repentant they will not avoid the ultimate judgement even though it will be a shock to those getting away with murder all their lives. Society is to blame for adopting idiotic philosophies of moral relativism just so we can feel comfortble in immoral lifestyles which rob kids of a loving dad and mum. Our judges would rather lock someone up for calling Islam evil than a murderer. Then we have the fools like Greens who want to legalise all drugs just so they others can be receptive to their loopiness.

I grew up in the Western suburbs of Sydney and
when I married we moved to Melbourne. From the
things you gentlemen describe - it's not the
Sydney that I knew and loved. I have to admit
I'm a bit suspicious of blaming everything on
a particular minority group. There usually is
more to the story then such simplistic explanations
like - "it's because they're Muslims." Just because
they follow a particular religion - does that make
them unAustralian? And are all Muslims violent?
Or is it only the fundamentalists? Fundamentalists
exist in all religions. That's an ongoing problem in
many societies. Anyway - I'm not interested in
slanging matches against any particular group - or
tainting one group with the same brush and not
allowing for individual differences.

360 degrees exist in a circle.
And just about as many different ideas and thoughts in threads such as this.
I understand that, Sydney's North Shore residents , wealthy never likely to see or even pass by these suburbs will have one.
Hard working westys, western suburbs often living just next door will know but try to stay clear of it.
Some will define it in terms of class or wealth.
But these areas are there to house the not well of, once those folk commuted to inner city and worked.
Bought the rented home or moved out.
Now it is welfare.
But is it wrong to say often by choice?
Why if you had 8, 10 or more kids, or you intended to, would you work?
Change will never come if we constantly confront truths we do not like.
And from afar, from no real knowledge or understanding of the matter.
The links tell it all, post civil war in Lebanon Labor opened a gate.
It is no lie, you can Be bashed, by a third generation Australian, for being Australian, a skip!
See Webb pages from schools proudly burning our flag.
If the truth is confronting ,CONFRONT IT STILL, we help no one hiding our heads.

Lexi, my mate Lexi, we have spoken about out time in that area.
Sound Lounge in parra remember that.
You must understand that area no longer exists, our past is gone, forever.
You say Muslims yet it is Christian Lebanese in Granville, Muslims in Auburn.
Lexi, find me an Aussie there, find me any part of my country with more Lebanese.
Show me the ethnic back grounds of the victims and the perpetrators, in these shootings.
If not as said we have found new ways to racially discredit people, convict them of crimes they never did.
Or shoot them and blame others.
Go back to your old area, just once, be careful, but tell us then we are not telling it like it is.
In our culture, some teach the 2 or 3 year old to drink a little beer and laugh,we teach them a swear word and laugh at the bar b q with mates.
By 6 we are trying to stop them, by ten it is us they swear at, 12 it may be mum who is hit by them.
We plant, some of us seeds that grow.
What seeds grow such hate? as flag burning in third generation kids?

Dear Belly,

Hatred usually grows as a result of being excluded and
made to feel "different." I certainly don't have all
the answers to this difficult issue. However I do know
that there must be a variety of reasons for what's
happening in these areas that you speak of and
blaming people doesn't help. Looking for ways to change
what's happening from the ground up - may be the way to
go.

made to feel "different."
Lexi,
Extremely wrong ! If such people were to behave in a reasonably orderly manner & didn't insist of sticking out like a bloke dressed in black in the snow then no-one would see them as different. It's their own doing ! We are entitled to see them as different if that's how they insist to be seen.

Lexi said;
Just because they follow a particular religion - does that make
them unAustralian?

Yes, it is so. No point trying to hide it, it is the way it is.

No Lexi they are not fundamentalists, they might be easier to deal with
if they were. They just use their religion to beat Australians with.
NSW had to even bring in laws that refusal to give police information
on who attacked you and why and also witnesses is now a criminal
offense and some have already been gaoled for that crime.

Read that link Belly gave. It is worth your time.
They are not interested in becoming part of Australia and are proud of
that attitude.
You only have to watch them on the TV outside the courthouses.

Something I read recently.
>
The Muslims are not happy!

They're not happy in Gaza.
They're not happy in Egypt.
They're not happy in Libya.
They're not happy in Morocco.
They're not happy in Iran.
They're not happy in Iraq.
They're not happy in Yemen.
They're not happy in Afghanistan.
They're not happy in Pakistan.
They're not happy in Syria.
They're not happy in Lebanon.

So, where are they happy?

They're happy in Australia.
They're happy in England.
They're happy in France.
They're happy in Italy.
They're happy in Germany.
They're happy in Sweden.
They're happy in the USA.
They're happy in Norway.
They're happy in New Zealand.

They're happy in every country that is not Muslim.

And who do they blame?

Not Islam.
Not their leadership.
Not themselves.
THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!
AND THEY WANT TO CHANGE THEM TO BE LIKE THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY.

Excuse me, but
How DUMB can you get

Lexi I with respect understand the mother like goodness in you.
And again, without intent to hurt or harm, target it as unhelpful in fixing this mess.
Bazz speaks the truth
Others here have too.
I Goggled Lebanese crime.
Found myself reading the script of 4 corners from 2002.
Interested people can find Bob Carr there speaking as Premier of NSW, no bigot.
A fact, over 70% of Australia's Lebanese live in Sydney.
We have seen Lebanese at the very top in our state.
It can only be said we have even noticed a problem, post 1968.
Those charged,those killed, those missing or injured, are mostly Lebanese.
WHO do we target for that?
How do we fix anything? ever? if truth must be hidden?
Is it of use looking at Fairfield's Italian population, to fix Sydney's gun crime? they play no part in it but if not the perpetrators who.
All those years ago, in Parramatta, briefly I was with the motor cycle club, you had to be under 250cc and not wear colors to be in it.
no criminals middle class and white collar.
I could not ride my bike was a 500 Indian ww 2 model, but now?
The club in control there would flog us if we dare even think about riding.
How do we, no fair dinkum, how? do we address unpleasant matters that may involve a race other than our own.
I will bet my home very few Australians want any thing other than an end to the street crime and, if brave enough to read my suggested read,that 4 corners one, an end to hating us just because we are the country that opened doors at a time of need.
Truth? always, forever, the only path to improvement.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/media_release_archive?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGd3d3LmViaXoucG9saWNlLm5zdy5nb3YuYXUlMkZtZWRpYSUyRjIyMzY4Lmh0bWwmYWxsPTE%3D
Another link, this time from NSW Police, middle eastern crime squad no less.
Just think, these Police, as mentioned in the Carr link,heard on closed Police radios, their names, those of their kids.
Even where they lived, death threats.
Yet, focus, some say naming this squad that name,is racist!
I know every suburb mentioned here,every single one.
Briefly star struck by the city lights this bush bred kid wanted to know what was around every street corner.
Not now thank you.
But fond memory's of Chester Hill

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbytitle/9BAE3BA863E12922CA256F7200729313?OpenDocument
The thread is climbing one of its many Branch's.
This link points out a view I hold that costs are rising.
And just maybe are a reason for less time some spend in prison.
Even for some not serving any at all.
Figures are for 2004 but show a trend.
Some one may have ideas to improve our current system, we need not do it as it always has been.
I am not asking for more or less time in prison.
I do however want more focus on education for living and maybe getting a job,for those in prison.

Dear Belly,

I've really got nothing more to say.
Obviously Sydney must have changed a great
deal from the way I remember it.
And certainly - I don't
remember any of the problems that you describe.
I may be naive - but I still believe that people
are basically good and decent - and given half
a chance they won't disappoint. But that's just
the way I was brought up. Sure I realise that there
are some rotten sods out there - but I like to
think that they're usually in the minority.
Anyway - I can't go against who I am - that's
just the way I see things.

"but I still believe that people
are basically good and decent - and given half
a chance they won't disappoint."

Lexi I suspect that depends a lot on the values they are raised with. History shows too many large scale examples of where that's not been the case to believe that it's innate. Human slavery has existed in one form or another for much if not all of human history and has at times had wide acceptance in western history.

We've mostly heard of the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, Cambodia, Rwanda and other places. Those were not the actions of a minority in those communities, they were the consequence of the majority either endorsing or failing to stand against great evil. They involved large numbers of people willing to act in the most vile manner against fellow human beings.

There are some teachings of the monotheistic religions which teach a very negative view of those outside their faiths or those inside the faith who don't do it right. Christianity had it's time where some very vile acts against others were carried out based on what was widely believed at the time, there appears to still be a strong following among some muslim groups for a very negative view of non muslims.

I don't believe that holds for all muslims or all Lebanese but I do think that there are some serious issues around some groups which should be addressed directly and which various governments seem to prefer to avoid.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

I agree with you - there are attitudes and beliefs
that are based on misconceptions about people founded
on the fear of difference, including differences in
customs, values, religion, physical appearance and
ways of living and viewing the world. This includes
negative attitudes towards the use of different
languages "foreign" accents or the use of non-standard
variations of a dominant community language.

These beliefs are reinforced by prevailing social
attitudes towards people who are seen as different and
are often a reflection of the values which underpin
social relations and institutional practices.

The fact remains - in this country all Australians
are equal under the law. This means that nobody should
be treated differently from anybody else because of
their race, ethnicity or country of origin, or because
of their age, gender, marital status, disability,
or because of their political or religious beliefs.
Government agencies and independent courts are
obliged to treat everyone fairly.

This subject is an unpleasant one.
It was always going to be.
Lexi, I refrain from posting links to the 5 u tube Lebanese gang story's.
And the Lebanese Rape gangs.
But wish you would find them and have a look.
Tell me what thoughts come after, about the pure hate, directed to wards Australians,by second and third generation Australians.
Yes past events, but what has changed,little, the hate remains for sure.
A separatism is apparent,and no doubt we all of us, including post ww2 migrants can in part be blamed.
But so too can the enforced separation of different culture and religions.
Underline religion, our very different faiths,for some demand separatism.
Those rape victims,some 14 years old,heard these words,*you deserve it because you are Australian*
It happened,it did.
Almost every night shoots are fired in our streets, do we say no! we must not target race!
Or do we confront the facts and ask what can we do about it?
Are matters such as this to be walked around because some one will be offended?
I am not calling for returned racism.
my thread asks how can we do better.
May I set out for debate a few ideas.
No prison for traffic fines and small issues, offenders fined and made to work to pay it.
Review the law take all assets from convicted people of some crimes.
Expand a police boys club like thing to a community center in every suburb, for every race to mix to gether.

Dear Belly,

I certainly don't have a problem with people
who break our laws being held to account and
going through due process in our courts same as any
body else who breaks the law.

I look upon Australia's cultural diversity as a
strength which makes for a dynamic society.
But of course its a given that this society
exists within a framework of laws. What is asked
of everyone who lives in this country is that
those who come here and wish to live here make
an overriding commitment to Australia - to its laws,
to its values, and to its people. Living in this
country one has certain obligations and that applies
to all of its people.

Lexi,
You said,"I look upon Australia's cultural diversity as a
strength which makes for a dynamic society.
But of course its a given that this society
exists within a framework of laws. What is asked
of everyone who lives in this country is that
those who come here and wish to live here make
an overriding commitment to Australia - to its laws,
to its values, and to its people. Living in this
country one has certain obligations and that applies
to all of its people".

That is quite fair and I agree. Now the question is, should we continue to allow those groups to immigrate that have shown us they cannot/will not abide by our laws and social standards? There are groups like the Croats and Serbs, who continue to hate and fight each other and the Lebanes muslims who have nothing but contempt for our society. Other groups practice forced marriages, oppress women and perform FGM on young girls. Should these groups be allowed to continue to come here?

Alien cultural practices are very difficult to change, so if these groups continue to arrive, what do you suggest we do to get them to integrate.

Lexi it is a little unfair to include all migration, even all Lebanese or Muslim Lebanese in this issue.
Few, very few, are not aware of the contributions migration has made to this country.
Our current Prime minister is a Migrant.
It simply is wrong to use the whole to defend those involved here.
We can not however overlook,or ignore, unchecked Lebanese Muslim Migration, during the civil war, marked the explosion of Sydney's current and past drug and street wars.
I want clearly, to remind those who are grand children of post ww2 refugees/migrants, are more often than not harsher in criticizing those responsible for these issues.
Tacking multiculturalism on, as a defense is unreasonable, and untrue.
From what previous group of refugees did a hate for Australians come.
Right now,as is the case with every day modern life, from ho la hoops to yo yo,s pop stars to new dances a copy cat culture is emerging, of street shootings, as youth take the cowards way, shoot instead of a short punch up then its over.
My links are to police, former state leaders hardly racists.
I question a world that refuses to ask the real questions on things like this.
Why this group.
Why the hate.
Should we review our migration policy's,how many live forever on welfare in this group, are we paying for big family's who too will never work?
Are we content to shield the truth in fear of it uncovering things we do not want to hear.
Is the path to truth racist?

Dear Banjo,

Historically we've always had fears - of the kind
that you describe. And on the whole they've usually
been proven to be unfounded.

Immigraton has always been an important element in
Australia's nation building. We have integrated millions
of people with diverse backgrounds from over 200 countries
and we have drawn from that diversity to build a
successful nation. Problems exist within any nation -
and we have laws in place to deal with acts of violence
and those who break the law. Curtailing who comes into
this country I think is already being done by the
Immigration Department. They do have certain criteria
that must be met. I am not an expert in this field
so i can't offer you any information on
this subject. But I'm sure that you can Google it -
if you're interested.

Lexi,
Comon, you are avoiding the question, by saying the issues I raise are just fears. The Croats and Serbs hate each other and fight. The Lebanese muslims hold our laws and police in complete disdain. There are groups that practice alien cultural matters. As Belly pointed out the few alien groups have been here for three generations, time enough for them to have changed their ways and become part of Australia.

These are not fears, they are realities and are happening right now. The shootings in S/W Sydney are real and cannot be ignored.

Do you support far tougher jail sentences and building more jails? I do, together with tighter restrictions on bringing in people of those groups that are comtemptous of our society. I do not make my suggestions lightly, but cannot see any other way.

It would be good to get your opinion on what should be done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv6-tsV5Xj0&feature=related
This Link is from a Brilliant young man.
He speaks for 9 minutes and a few seconds.
He is Lebanese.
And lives within the community we speak about.
I know others like him, good honest folk.
ANY ONE interested in this subject, should take the time to watch.
His sharp honest words maybe more to the point, and of more use, than any, including mine here.

Lexi I feel you will not read the links.
And, honestly, that you should be better informed.
We all of us, must be aware, be warned, truth is always the only acceptable building block for improvement.
Banjo,I agree with your view recommend my link above, it tells a story from within, brilliantly.

There is a tradition of cousin marriage that has caused those
communities that practise it to have a high percentage of genetic
faults. Most moslem, if not all, do practise cousin marriage.
How many of those with violent behaviour have mental genetic faults ?

Behaviour problems can be related to genetic mutation.
It can also affect preception of other peoples actions.

There have been moves to stop genital mutilation by law and cousin
marriage should also be banned. It would be interesting to know how
many Lebanese convicted of violent crime have parents who are cousins.

AS you said Belly this is not a pleasant thread but no one has
come up with a cause or a solution.

Belly,
That's a good video, I've posted extensively on the difference between the "Leb" subculture and authentic Lebanese culture.
The guy in the video is 100% correct, you look across all the "troubled" youth groups in the world and what's the common denominator? Hip-Hop/ SoCal Gangsta influence, it doesn't matter if it's Broadmeadows, Wadeye, Kibera, Brixton, the Banlieues of Paris or the suburbs of Kiev, it's the same clothing, the same music, the same body language, the same victim mentality and the same dysfunction.
I like to say the problem is not that SoCal/Gangsta is the culture of poverty it's the poverty of the Socal/Gangsta culture that's dragging people down.

Bazz,
As a victim of Male genital mutilation I couldn't agree more on the need to ban the odious practice of cutting infants of either sex, a small percentage of Islamic girls endure the process but 100% of Islamic boys are mutilated.
This is another area where the so called 'Bleeding Hearts" fear to tread, where's the outcry over MGM? Why is it that FGM is banned but MGM is still tolerated?
Let's hear some thoughts from Lexi and co on this little head scratcher, pun intended.

How DUMB can you get.
Bazz,
I assume you're actually referring to those who can't see the agenda, not the ones coming here. Isn't there anyone out there who can see through the refugee smoke screen ?

Dear Banjo,

I can't comment on something that I know very little
about. I don't live in Sydney any more and am not
familiar with the neighbourhoods or the problems
that people living in them encounter. I tried in
good faith to give you a brief general summation
from my point of view - in that - those that
break the law - should pay the penalties according
to the law. I'm not a judge and jury however - and
sentencing I shall leave to the experts. If you don't
like what I'm posting - ask someone else whose
opinion you may prefer.

Dear Jay,

The practice in some cultures of FGM in young girls is,
and should remain illegal in Australia. It is a criminal
offence in this country.

Although male circumcision was common from the 1920s to the
1960s - medical authorities have discontinued the
practice since 1970s and it is now pretty much a
thing of the past.

The Royal Australian College of Physicians has stated quite
clearly that routine circumcision of male infants is not
warranted in Australia and New Zealand.

Lexi.
Yes..so lets criminalise it altogether, there is no more reason to circumcise boys than there is girls and it's no more or less destructive to the infant right? Boys die from post operative infections and complications, they lose sexual function due to botched circumcisions, they're left with scarred genitals and decreased sensitivity and the stigma of being "not as other men".
Of course that's not going to go down well with certain minority groups who have special protections, rights and privileges from the state is it?. You can't have Afghan and Iranian refugees coming here to bolster the self esteem of middle class White women and then tell them they can't practice MGM, they might feel...what's the word..stigmatised, or marginalised.
See this is another inconsistency in the administration of a "free and democratic" world, cultural sensitivity is required when males are the victims of some outdated barbarism but when women and girls are being "oppressed" out come the Blackhawks and Humvees.

Sorry Individual, I can't see the point you are making.
Maybe it wasn't to me.

I have found it too easy, we all do, to be diverted by rebuttal of facts it is true the CURRENTLY the offenders are Lebanese.
True too, that currently they seemingly hate us, well no, Lebanese Australians.
Back to law, it costs, massive amounts to imprison anyone.
Currently, and for near 20 years, NSW uses prison inmates to clean up road sides.
Why not high vis, bright pink? jump suits,with some constricted movement in built.
And SOME offenders earn enough to pay ALL COSTS involved in the case of their crime capture court and the time in custody.
Every such prisoner to be given education, not brain washing,social skills and even how to read.
Long term prisoners,take all they own within reason to pay for their terms.
A full review of all Social welfare payments of every convicted person.
This will find too many, of every race, who commit crimes are funded by dole or welfare.
Not draconian measures self defense ones.
And every chance of helping some find away out of the crime circle.
We must never, ;let fears about unfairness to perpetrators blind us to ways we can stop the behavior and help everyone.
Lexi nice person that she is, highlights the very real danger in closing our minds to reality or eyes to evidence that can not be ignored.

Possession of an illegal gun should have a minimum sentence of 5 years.
Car hooning plays a big roll using a car in a drive by,life disqualification for drivers car crushed mandatory.
Car hooning no crime crush car every time 2 years disqualification.
Plain closed police in unmarked and unrecognizable cars to monitor.
Trains and train stations manned by police.
Those given bonds if not working to attend training ,in suburbs other than own to take away mob mentality .
Training in living skills and work.
You can just bet, wait for it, if one convicted criminal says it is cruel punishment it will be challenged by yuppies who never see these streets and never fear just walking home.

Bazz, "There is a tradition of cousin marriage that has caused those
communities that practise it to have a high percentage of genetic
faults. Most moslem, if not all, do practise cousin marriage.
How many of those with violent behaviour have mental genetic faults ?"

ROFL comment of the day. Hilarious. Great stuff.

Lexi,
You still avoid ansewering the question. The questions are general and you have to be aware of the issues. You know that what Belly and I give are factual examples of what the current situation.

It is a bit dissappointing actually, considering that you are quite happy to lift some socialist propaganda and post it here as fact, as per you first post on this thread. That suggested that the criminals were indeed victims, which is utter rot. Poverty is no excuse for criminality and this situation has not to do with poverty.

Jay,
Your last post is an exageration and is common among those advocates of no male circumcission. There is a world of difference to that of FGM. No debate here except the male circumcission is debated in the medical profession which does not apply to FGM. FGM is illegal and yet we cannot get authorities to prosecute. You have no chance of getting male circumcission made illegal.

Belly,
The video was good in a general sence but he seems to concentrate on the present generation, whereas the issue has been also with the fathers and grandfathers as well. No suggestions as to how to deal with the problem. Perhaps I will try to contact him and seek further opinion about how to deal with it.

Dear Banjo,

What question have I not answered?
I've made it quite clear that those who break
the law should be punished according to our laws.
What is so difficult to understand about that?
I am not condoning the actions of those who break
the law. As for my not making any further comments
to that - as I stated earlier - I am not familiar
with the problems that occur in Sydney. I don't live
there. And I don't believe in speculation or making
judgements on something I know nothing about.

BTW - my first post - which you claim I "lifted from
socialist propaganda" (sic). Was obtained from studies
done by the Australian Crime Commission. You should
try not to embarrass yourself on a public forum like
that. Think before you post.

Lexi,
Here are the questions you have failed to address.

Now the question is, should we continue to allow those groups to immigrate that have shown us they cannot/will not abide by our laws and social standards? There are groups like the Croats and Serbs, who continue to hate and fight each other and the Lebanes muslims who have nothing but contempt for our society. Other groups practice forced marriages, oppress women and perform FGM on young girls. Should these groups be allowed to continue to come here?

Alien cultural practices are very difficult to change, so if these groups continue to arrive, what do you suggest we do to get them to integrate.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 13 April 2012 11:26:43 AM


Do you support far tougher jail sentences and building more jails? I do, together with tighter restrictions on bringing in people of those groups that are comtemptous of our society. I do not make my suggestions lightly, but cannot see any other way.

It would be good to get your opinion on what should be done
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 13 April 2012 2:49:41 PM

You cannot say you are unaware of the situation, you have already disclosed that at least you are aware that FGM is illegal, so what is your solution to eliminating alien cultural practices. Clearly the fact that the practices are illegal is ignored. One does not have to live in Sydney to know that hardly a day goes by without a shooting.

First wedding ones cousin,while in large numbers is not our way it is practiced by far more than Muslims.
The British Royal family had its off spring on thrones around Europe, nothing to do within this problem.
Banjo it is generally excepted the second wave, the arrivals as a result of Lebanon's civil war is the home of this trouble.
I too find no reason, other that mum and dad, to complain about circumcision.
Had we time we could find ex Lord Mayors, Governors, and many more Great and Good Lebanese Australians.
I will bet Lexi has not looked at the links and the one you talk about from within that community.
I am so very happy, our down trodden victims, are free to hate us shoot each other and that those $25.000 killing machine rifles did not make it on to the streets.
Welfare, look is it worth mentioning just maybe by paying folk who have up to 11 kids to stay home, forever, we bar inclusiveness.
We won, yes workers and the ALP welfare for the needy.
Have I the right to ask it be reviewed.
Would it be cheaper to, when possible,demand benefits to tax payers in return?

Dear Banjo,

Serbs and Croats - you say hate each other and
continue to fight each other? Really - all Serbs
and Croats? Or only the ones who got overly
excited in the sports arena - and allowed past
hatreds to rise to the surface. They were ones who
were born here and were too young to even have a
drivers licence. They're not unlike other nationalities
who display their antagonism against their sporting
opponents.

And Lebanese Muslims have nothing
but contempt for our society? Really - they all
do, do they? Then they must be a minority - because
I thought most Lebanese were Christians. And what
about the decades of peaceful Lebanese settlement
in this country?

You want me to tell you whether
I think that these "alien" groups be allowed to
continue to come here - with their "alien" cultural
practices? Especially when they have nothing but
contempt for our society?

Let me say that I don't believe in
unreasonable generalisations and sweeping statements.
Because then it appears that you are arguing on an
emotional level - not a mature intelligent one.

Here are some facts - taken from the Australian
Immigration Fact Sheet 1:

"Australia's Migration Program does not discriminate
on the basis of race or relgion." So your question
regarding Serbs, Croats, Lebanese Muslims is irrelevant.

"All Applications for migration to Australia are assessed
against requirements set out in the Migration Act and
REgulations. There are different criteria for different
categories of visas and the criteria are established to
meet Australia's national interests and needs. The
Government determines the criteria and sets the number of
people who can enter under the program on an annual
basis."

"The policies and legislation governing migrant selection
are applied equally to all applicants."

"The criteria for the Migration Program are selective -
only those applicants who meet Australia's requirements
and have good prospects for successful settlement are
chosen. There are detailed rules governing entry in
each migration category and selection is based on a case-by
-case assessment of applications."

cont'd ...

Once the people get here - they have to behave
accordng to the laws of the country. And they
are treated equally whether they descended
from early settlers or are recent arrivals.

The violence that we see
on TV is to a larger proportion is related to
people from a wide variety of ancestries - not
just limited to the groups you mentioned. Also based on
population proportions violence appears to be evenly
distributed among all groups.

Lexi sorry but time for some frank talking.
You are fixed and blinkered in your view.
I doubt two people can be found to question the nationality and religion of these folk.
Post after post has links to such as a prime minister a state premier and Lebanese.
Are you defending a family member or Friend?
Do you give any credence to any of the above.
Is the fact it is ONLY Lebanese who have been convicted so far for drive bys of use.
I very much doubt that Matilda mag has any intention of being other than a near left journal, look else ware for in depth reporting.
Say reports by NSW Police.

There is an interesting historical context to circumcision and the ban on pig meats.
In pre Christion times in the Middle east both were practised.
Circumcision because there were less occurrences of cervical cancer and
perhaps other diseases. That was also found in recent research.

Pig meats were banned because of parasites in pig meat.

These bans became religious practise which is why they are still practised.
However about 1000 BC the Chinese learnt enough about animal husbandry
to be able to avoid the parasites.
This knowledge was promulgated around the world but by this time it
had been written into the bible and copied into the Koran and
has become so stubbornly believed ever since, science notwithstanding.

Well StG I can assure there is nothing hilarious about raising a
retarded child !
If you want proof go read the UK government report on cousin marriage
to the UK Parliament on the occurrence of genetic defects in Midland
counties in particulat those counties around Leicester, Manchester,
Leeds etc where there is a large number of Pakistanis and other
middle eastern immigrants.

Oh but that is not here is it ?

Well go and read the report of the NSW Dept of Health report to the
NSW Parliament on the large number of babies born with genetic faults
born in Auburn hospital. The genetist who made the report went and
interviewed the mothers and found most of them were married to their
cousins and were the childeren of cousins.

If you think this is a bloody joke try helping out at a special school !

Belly; Yes the Royals in past times did practise cousin marriage but
I think it was only for political reasons.
I think they have abandoned it now as they all seem to be marring commoners.

I doubt if it was practised in rural communities very much as being
the raisers of animals they would have been well aware of the problems
of inbreeding and would have avoided it in their own families as well.
I just remembered a TV program where festivals were held and all the
surrounding villages attended so the young people could meet up.
Put yourself in their position where travel was very limited and it
would need something like a festival to get them all together.
Probably put on by the older villages deliberately.

Getting back to gun crime, it is not only Lebanese but some Islanders
have been involved as well.

Dear Belly,

Here's a few links for you on the subject
of Sydney's Gun Crimes:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA20120214027

And:

http://www.nswalp.com/media/news/62nd-drive-by-adds-to-weekend-of-violence/

I wonder how many Serbs and Croats and Lebanese Muslims
belong to these bikie gangs?

The sooner drugs are legalised the sooner the lebanese gangs/families will be deprived of some of their easy income. Then we will only have to worry about insurance fraud and car rebirthing. I don't know who we can blame for letting these people into Australia but he must have been a very stupid person. To punish these people we lock them up in Goulburn goal where they are being radicalised. We are creating some ugly problems for our children.

Here's a few more links that may help clarify a
few things:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/drug-gangs-bikies-linked-to-spate-of-shootings-20120120-1qa7i.html

And: -

http://au.news.yahoo.com/local/nsw/a/-/local/13298813/police-dismantle-notorious-bikie-gang/

Lexi, the Notorious bikie gang is from what I have heard largely
Lebanese run, although I think some members were reported to be Tongan.
Tongans are used as bouncers by some of the night clubs because they
can just stand in a double doorway and block it.
No one takes them on except with a gun.

No ok just of to a distant market day.
A close look at overnight NSW one shot dead one just shot at.
Are we seeing the start of a trend.
Lets face it teens and those just out of it are subject to mimicry.
From brands of spirits few once bought to hamburgers they take to things like planking Plonkers.
If so? we will know it came from the subjects of this thread.
And to them from the worst America has to offer, well apart from murdering Black men, Gangsta culture.
We are bogged down in denial,pretending its not one group, seemingly skipping over the idea controlling Drugs by legalizing them may help.
Any thoughts.

Lexi feeble stuff
Biker gangs are now mostly Lebanese.
Always trouble.
Notorious is for sure from Parramatta at first it is a crime gang on its own.
Bazz yes all points, but Royals on purpose are wedding out siders to reduce problems.
Not every cousin wedding procures pain but in the long run?
Not an issue here.

Dear Belly,

Hells' Angels and Commancheros bikie gangs are
Lebanese? Come-on. Not in Melbourne, South Australia
and NSW they're not!

In this country we've had our share of bank robbers,
drug traffickers, crime families (Morans and Pettingill),
gangsters, fraudsters, murderers, serial killers,
child-sex offenders, rapists and others.

To blame any entire ethnic group - be it Irish, or
Lebanese is what I find disturbing and then to suggest
that we should curtail these "alien" groups from
coming to this country because of the criminals amongst
them - is equally disturbing. Criminals are criminals
and exist amongst the entire spectrum of nationalities.
The causes for their behaviour are many and varied - and
I'm not trying to deny that we don't have problems
dealing with criminal activity - or that these problems
don't exist. I simply don't believe that blaming just one
group - when there are several involved - is the answer.
The issue is far more complex then that.
And as several articles
have pointed out - cutting back on police numbers in
NSW - doesn't help things either.

cont'd ...

Take a look at the history of crime in Australia
from the early 1900s. Should we get rid of the
Irish, the Italians, the Greeks, and the English,
as well as many others - because of the criminal
elements amongst them? We'd end up with no
population. But then again - perhaps the
Indigenous people will get their tribal lands back.

Wahoo!

Lexi and her posts are of importance to this thread and its complex subjects.
Very few informed folk are not aware of recent convictions for murder and the ancestry of those involved.
And even less, of us who read multiple news sources[ I find it wasteful to read one sided constructed junk like anything Murdock owns or Matilda].
Knows even within the Lebanese community, the behavior of these second and third generation Australians,is feared and considered out of control.
In research,I only need to try, I found evidence that in 1995 NSW Police Politicians, had been up to their eyes, in drug crime, protect,ting it.
Documentation ,said clearly it was Lebanese crime gangs then as now.
BUT THOSE we trust! protecting them, for cash!
I even found from 2002 from here OLO articles taking the opposite view to mine,saying as Lexi has, it may look like a fact feel like one be one, but lets say it is not in any case!
So why is my respected Friend, hopefully still,of use in this thread.
If we want to address this issue,fix it, be innovative and kill corruption by changing drug laws and changing prison sentences.
We must step over many Lexis,and even more profiting from drugs.
Not bog down defending truth.
Biker gangs are in harness with these crime gangs a Lebanese biker group, who mostly do not ride Bikes is the heart of it.
I wait to hear comment on links that are evidence the claims are true,and say defending folk who are not part of this, blindly, is not addressing the issues.

Dear Belly,

I am not defending criminals - of whatever
persuasion they may be. What I am objecting
to is sweeping statements and generalisations
made about ethnic groups because of the criminals
amongst their midst. You seem to misunderstand me
and that does not help address the issues either.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3962
This link is one from here OLO.
Is that ok Graham?
Not from a white racist Aussie.
Not sure but just maybe some truth can be found here, if we look.
Worth us all remembering,we are being read, now and in the future, and just a few should think about that, saw a needless use of filth just the other day.

Dear Belly,

I read the article link from OLO that you
provded on the "Lebanese problem." I
especially found the comments particularly
interesting from posters. Especially from
RObert - who in his usual way summed things
up rather well by suggesting that we have to
look at "what specific problems are leading
to the problems..." And that - "our mission
is to try to tread our way through that maze
and come up with solutions that work."

Hear, hear.

Belly & Lexi,
I don't think you can use the normal point of view that you
cannot judge all by one.
I believe what we are witnessing here is a new paradyne.
Any attempt to apply previous attitudes and laws are doomed to failure.

I think of Einstein's saying,
"When an experiment fails I don't keep repeating it expecting a different outcome."

I think that is where we are now.

Dear Bazz,

Of course you don't keep repeating doing what you
did before and expect different results. That's
precisely the point. You have to try different
approaches and one of them would definitely be -
to try to find out what are the socio-economic
reasons as to why these problems exist in the
first place - and then try to find solutions
that just may work to solve these problems.
Antagonisms in the community don't help matters
either - be it between neighbours - or the police.

Bazz Lexi I retract nothing.
Time is sadly and honestly on my side.
I could have posted other links to past OLO articles.
Some could have been written by Lexi.
Nice warm cuddles all round ignore the facts.
Facts include Lebanese Muslims, their Children actually, from 1975 civil war drive the problem.
Are the problem in fact, whole pages exist,from post ww2 migrants and their off spring, saying just that.
We are bogged,at the very bottom of the hill,in a mud of denial.
That hill confronts us,but we try to walk around it.
The conference of the Americas is meeting.
High on the agenda is drugs the control of them.
We never can.
This country, in the 1990,s, even before, saw claims of extreme corruption and fortunes made by politicians,on all sides Medea barons did not escape those claims.
We are pawns, of little worth,in this war destroying whole country's.
We maybe be in the first stages of our own destruction.
Tax drugs, control drugs, free this country from being fed on by the parasites destroying it.
Including those nice young fellas burning our flag in Granville.

But that is the point Lexi, we are trying the same things over and over again.
None of them are/will work.

While we stall in that mud, take turns at ignoring the figures the Nationality's, even try to be nice to a new victim,the poor down trodden perpetrators.
We stand at a historic point, our gun laws are tough, yet we may well be at the very start of a culture that will forever take the fair go out of our country.
It is becoming a craze!
I think we should start the biggest ever campaign to change our drug laws.
Legalize and be brave, not fearful careful but brave.
NSW at least has sold lottery's, making billionaires out of the purchasers.
We should not go down that road, it feeds corruption.
A lean mean Government Group should be formed, it should purchase drugs.
Distribute them, and tax them.
It should pay its way and make a profit.
Price should be low as possible,so low no profit is there for black markets.
Mandatory prison for any black marketing.
Others can expand on my mud map, but register all users, no harassment no follow up.
One stop shop for users,first visit education and offers of help to leave drugs.
That shop offering 24/7 help and advice to quit
Expand as you will but still against the law to drive add to list while affected.
If we do not act? right now politicians yes my party too,Police Criminal Lawyers, feed on it and us.
Who thinks we can win a war on drugs.
More thoughts

NSW formed an Independent Commission in to Corruption ICAC.
Then pulled its teeth as it started to uncover political corruption.
Australian has seen the head of it anti drug/crime group involved in? crime.
We have despite in built protection of the thin blue line reluctance to see its faults, Police drug offenders, sellers, and in prison.
To support the proposed new drug laws I think we need a National crime Authority that is clean.
Our current one is crime PTY LMT!
With harsh life terms in prison for not being so.
And true power to investigate ANY CRIME.
We stand if brave enough, to gain a leadership roll in drugs.
Some will claim I am quite mad,maybe I am,but drugs in part grew so fast as FBI and CIA saw distribution took place in the 60,70/80s, to raise cash for its own purposes and to quieten youth.
Any change is better than nothing but we must go for squeaky clean fail proof change or be a failure.
More next time

So it seems we are not going to talk about think link between drugs and these crimes.
I truly thought from both sides the idea of changing the way we handle drugs was worth while talking about.
And that IF the street crime and shootings are because of drugs.
And bent police and politicians come via there we could look at constructive change.

No, Belly we are not going to talk about drugs.
The reason is if you were able to remove them from the drug trade they
would go into some other racket, say protectionism, illegal immigration
money laundering, cyber crime, you name it.

So the discussion has to be what are we going to do about them ?

Belly,
I do not agree with you about decrininalizing drugs. We have not yet tried far tougher laws and serious sentencing as yet. The 55 year sentences appeared to have stopped the gang rapes. The problem is that those like Lexi, the greens and other leftists think the crimes are insignificant or 'it is only a few' and that we should accept that as part of a multicultural society.

Let me say that most immigrants do try to integrate and the next generation more so. However there are a few groups that believe that their cultural attitudes and practices come before our social standards. When we see groups that persist in this we should stop importing more of the same. I understand there are some cultural problems now with some refugee groups in Melbourne. If so we should stop importing those groups and source refugees elsewhere. There are plenty of people wanting to come here. I liked Bazz's Enstien quote,'If an experiment fails I do not continue the same experiment and expect a different outcome'

As you said the same groups have caused problems for 3 generations.
The Croats and Serbs still fight, girls are still forced to marry and suffer FGM and the Leb muslims are still the most violent and anti social group.

The fact that these groups do not integrate shows MC has failed and it should be abandoned in favour of an integration policy. The failed experiment has continued for long enough.

Bazz Banjo ok yes, we should not run away from the facts.
A group is behind the gun crime, from within that group hate comes and crime.
And if we, so very many more who think as we do, had our say,we would not be able to send them home.
They are home.
Look deeper at why I think we should be brave.
I FEAR Social Engineering is behind Multi Cultures.
I know FIRMLY a great difference exists, between post ww1 and two Migration.
I know too, the children and grand children of those folk share our concerns OPENLY.
Let us face the challenge consider the possibility's of our own Social Engineering.
Change drug laws,Change aspects of welfare payments.
Change prison, we just must understand the costs of prisons not grow them by the hundreds.
Already that cost impacts on sentencing,some who clearly should be in prison are not.
A sure and certain fact, PC is threatening free speech,in the hands of uninformed it is extremely dangerous.
Banjo, the horrible crimes against women and girls you dislike so much bring little interest, as fear of offending ,PC,strangles our humanity.
Let us drive achievable change,that is best possible outcome change not perfection.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/five-sydney-shootings-in-four-hours-as-police-probe-bikie-gang-turf-war-link-20120417-1x48m.html
This is now an epidemic, it will get very much worse.
Banjo, if we get harder, not control, the costs of prison will bankrupt the state.

The police say these incidents are between two bikey gangs.
The moslems do not seem to be involved.

Belly,
I do not think the construction of a couple of new prisions will bankrupt the state.

It will only take a few harsh sentences to stop this ridiculous shooting spree. Like the 55 year sentences stopped the gang rapes.

I said;
The police say these incidents are between two bikey gangs.
The moslems do not seem to be involved.
>
Well it appears I could be wrong, a report this morning said that the
bikey wars are because they have been infiltrated by moslem gangs who
are more interested in the bikey drug business rather than motor bikes.

Sorry Bazz the roots still lead to the same place Nomads are linked to King of the cross and his family Lebanese.
Only one of 5 gangs is not mostly that way.
It no longer is just about race, it never was, drugs and crime drive it.
The shootings are now rapidly becoming a National problem.
As the bikers and drugs fight it out in the gold coast and Melbourne.

Bit disappointed Banjo, fact is a trend Australia wide,to contract out prisons is well under way,,due to costs.
I thought while we may not agree others may be interested in moving on, not looking to past way to fix todays issues.
Traffic fines and such should not see people sent to prison.
Surely we can get the cash, without both failing to get it and fining tax payers the costs of prison?
55 year sentencing was right and justified.
But if we put sentences up by say 10 years at the court end, it is in my view now,pressure will be put to send less to prison.
We you and I pay the bills.
So why not compulsory confiscation of cash and goods for some crimes to pay the costs?

Belly,
You are right about the compulsary confiscation of assetts of convicted drug dealers and organized crime. That should be a given.

Some may agree with you about decriminalizing drugs, I do not, untill all else has been tried. It it a fallacy to say that prisons are being privatized because of costs, the private operators are in it to make a profit. Politicians sell off our assetts simply because they have spent far more than the revenue income. Could be Telstra, the bank, water or electricity or Qantas. They need the money because they promise more than they can deliver. The money is now gone and we have nothing to show for it.

Time we got serious about our law enforcement and sentencing. Police must be really frustrated that after alll their work, the courts hand down lenient sentences. Cut a tree down without council permission and you cop a bigger penalty than the drug dealers get.

Prisons Banjo are being offered for contract even built by contractors who then work them.
Robo, the NSW ALP leader in his time as minister,after leading us in the anti power sell off campaign was given the poison chalice contract out another one.
Mate I look to constructive change,and one day we will/must revisit costs to the public and returns from crime and law enforcement welfare education and much more.
Some are linked Welfare to crime for sure, not all, not most but some.
I am thinking no different than you make punishment fit the crime.
But current system makes us be punished too.
Face it money we save can be used for better purposes.
I standby my view bigger sentences are not an answer alone just maybe facing a 55 or 35 year prison term some will kill to not be caught.

Had I left the focus on my truly held concerns at the term Multi Cultorism,we may still be waffling along.
Not much use in standing opposite one another hurling our biases at one another.
I am sorry that we did not go further in to change.
My drug thoughts are while mine bought to my attention by others.
And seemingly dead in the ground the seeds of hope and change had been planted in, for the time being, international considerations are under way, fingers crossed.
During the debate it was noted welfare under pins some crime family's.
And while reading of other crimes that some migrants/refugees have not worked from the day they came, and have had up to eleven children, on welfare from that day.
Yet we send small business men and women home?
Prisons are fenced off Liberal Labor Conservatives all hold views.
So far not one out side the fence, no one wants to try some thing new.
And, just in the life of this thread increased gun crime , it was already there, in other states is something to fear.
Biker crews are linked to drugs and middle east crime gangs.
We will continue to grumble.
But just think,even here in OLO, we could Begin a national online presentation to Parliament demanding an end to this.
Some legal minds could draft and check our words , see it independent of partisan politics and who knows what we could start.
Crime prisons welfare, all will be addressed to harsh by one side too soft by the other but what if we Australians had a say?

So, after all this, how many of you still fail to see the benefit of National service ?

I did not think I would return to this thread.
Each has its life span.
But I included prisons time spent there and punishment in general.
Some one may start a thread on my post here, I will not.
But again our country is facing condemnation.
This time in China, already ten thousand tweets.
Kids, as likely to be WASP as anything, their race is of no interest.
Even removed a tampon from a womans body and placed it in her mouth!
Bashed, burned with a cigarette, a dreadful thing.
A woman the first threatened, said *rob them they are Asians, they have money*
Groups will have differing views,one will say as I do* they must spend time in prison/confinement, at least 12 months*
Others they are only kids give them a break.
Judges may think it costs too much to confine, lets frighten them.
If they are not WASP? flocks of claims of Aussie racism will greet any out come.
If we do not explore ways to change we one day will see a government not unlike dictatorship do it for us.
To China, those victims,I say how deeply sorry almost every Australian is.
And while no train traveler I would have given my life to stop it.

http://m.smh.com.au/national/postgraduate-education/assault-on-students-sparks-online-fury-20120424-1xjid.html
I should have linked to it before.
Keep forgetting what is news in Sydney may not be in other states.
This will be in days to come.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/mundine-sentiment-missing-the-mark-20120425-1xlil.html
This link is from my heart, I constantly want and demand better for Aboriginals.
I in fact demand it, even if it brings a new form of stolen generation!
I had to defend my views in this thread often.
Stolen? this time by their own people such as Noel Pierson.
Yet read the link, if you have not seen Redfern, both the new growing changing one, and the continuing to fail one.
You will convict me,but be wrong.
Mundene is both a good name, and an anchor to change,for the better.
Anthony is the last one, no good can come from him.
Have you seen a six year old try to steal your car?
I could continue but here is the truth.
More harm than good, great harm and destruction, comes from being blind to what makes these children criminals.
Parents!
Drunk or drug ed at home while the kids, relieing on the false hood whites keep them down,are free to act like this!
I charge the do gooders with destroying lives.

Will not link to it but this morning a story asked a question I have often.
It was about these kids.
It could have been mine.
It reported the case history of crimes committed, the feather duster treatment they got.
Now some will rant about not enough floggings, well you know what I mean.
Others will talk about social background, race, history of white invasion.
My statements up the thread,about another stolen generation, will have seen some hold their breath.
Some even hate me.
I say this, clearly from dysfunctional family's, clearly in need of help not punishment.
So reinvent the way these folk are punished educate and try, at least to produce hope.
Not in white hands but their own people
Why not give them a Chance.
A CUSTODIAL SENTENCE.
Placed in the hands of such as Noel Pierson, even in the NT to learn and give some chance.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/civil-war-defies-the-anzac-spirit-20120428-1xrgl.html
Link, some what dramatized, still speaks for its self
As this sickness, as predicted, spreads across Australia.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/when-the-gangs-are-banished-ibrahim-parades-his-colours-20120428-1xrmu.html
And evidence one crime family,at least can walk our streets not safe from the guns, but safe from police