A recent thread, about just how bad John Howard was, also suggests that Tony Abbott is worse than JH ever was.

So, considering Julia Gillard, the PM most of you worship, is struggling to make up large amounts of lost ground, against TA, this just goes to prove how bad this government really is.

Yet, after realizing this is in fact true, how on earth can anyone think that JH was worse than JG.

I am not aware of any poster who worships Julia Gillard. This is just emotive and does not support a rational argument.

Agreeing or disagreeing with various policies on all sides of politics does not a worshipper make. I have yet to see you rehctub criticise the Opposition. Surely they cannot be perfect in your eyes? I would be surprised if you supported the lack of policy content in their approach so far.

To put it rather simply John Howard was respected by those who believe in reward for effort whereas those who support Julia Gillard do so to keep the gravy train rolling.

Thats right Indy , and anyone that wants to change it is an idiot.

579,
I'm not quite sure how to interpret this but the term gravy train usually refers to those who who're just hangers on. i.e. those who don't pull their weight. Is that what you're advocating ?

I try to contribute to every new thread
Rechtub targets me here.
Inventive/untrue/ lost but inventive.
Done my duty see all in another thread.

Well let's see pelican

The baby bonus, probably their biggest stuff up.

Selling telstra, another bad move.

The introduction of the first home owners grant. Should have been in the form of a loan.

I have always criticized the coalition, however, my point is, Julia gillard must be much worse than John Howard, evidence being in the fact that she trails Tony Abbott who, I am sure all would agree, is not a patch on JH. In fact, I would suspect if you were to ask the opinion of TA, he himself would sing the praises of JH.

My point being, how can this government possibly be the envy of the world.

Actually belly, you ar one who recognizes how poor this government is.

It just a shame you don't recognize what a great set of numbers they inherited.

rehctub,
some people will never concede no matter how much evidence. What concerns me personally so much is the fact & an undeniable fact at that, that for some of these people their blind loyalties even disregard the blatant mismanagement & or corruption which causes so much misery to our fellow citizens. there are people who don't know how to feed & house their children & on the other hand we have Public Service Bureaucrats who worry only about how much more they can reap out of our overly generous Social system. Just imagine, the last pollie pay increase could have supported two families per parliamentarian. Shame on all of them for not knocking it back. Keep that in mind at the next election.

Rechtub read your post,truly read what you said.
Then find me a poster who claims other than dislike for Gillard.
Look I understand, truly, given the time you and individual can come up with a post containing understanding.
I think my time is limited to about ten years
Think you can hurry up?
Look again, tell me, do you think even Abbott thinks he is the equal of Howard.
Now look again, how did your swipe at me become evidence the government is no good.
invention is good only if the produced product is marketable.
Leave you this time to play in this sand box.

Think you can hurry up?
Belly,
think you can ?

Butch,
I could add a few more critisisms to yours in relation to the previous government. But I agree this is the worst government we have ever had.

Just to remind everybody, here is a list doing the rounds of the internet now.

FACT - NOT SPIN
The Top 50 Labor Lemons - so far!!
1.. Carbon Tax - "There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead."

2.. NBN - $50 billion but no cost-benefit analysis

3.. Building the Education Revolution - The school halls fiasco- Dumped (after little or no accountability)

4.. Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) - Dumped after several deaths and no accountability

5. Citizens Assembly - Dumped

6.. Cash for Clunkers - Dumped

7.. Hospital Reform - Nothing

8.. Digital set-top boxes - Cheaper at Harvey Norman

9.. Emissions Trading Scheme - Abandoned

10. Mining Tax - Continuing uncertainty for our miners

11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia - Over-reaction in light of other measures immediately available

12. Detention Centres - Riots & cost blow-outs

13. East Timor 'solution' - Announced before agreed

14. Malaysia 'solution' - Only just agreed, sort of

15. Manus Island 'solution' - On the backburner

16.. Computers in Schools - $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered

17. Cutting Red Tape - 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed

18. Asia Pacific Community - Another expensive Rudd frolic. Going nowhere

19. Green Loans Program - Abandoned. Only 3.5% of promised loans delivered

20. Solar Homes & Communities plan - Shut down after $534 million blow out

21. Green Car Innovation Fund - Abandoned

22. Solar Credits Scheme - Scaled back

23. Green Start Program - Scrapped

24. Retooling for Climate Change Program - Abolished

25. Childcare Centres - Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered

Contn.

Labour lemons contn.

26. Take a "meat axe"' to the Public Service - 24,000 more public servants added

27. Murray Darling Basin Plan - back to the drawing board

28. 2020 Summit - Meaningless talkfest

29. Tax Summit - Deferred and downgraded

30. Population Policy - Sets no targets

31. Fuel Watch - Abandoned

32. Grocery Choice - Abandoned

33. $900 Stimulus cheques - Sent to dead people and overseas residents

34. Foreign Policy - In turmoil with Rudd running riot

35. National Schools Solar Program - Closing two years early

36. Solar Hot Water Rebate - Abandoned

37. Oceanic Viking - Caved in

38. GP Super Clinics - 64 promised, only 11 operational

39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics - 12 promised, none delivered

40. Trade Training Centres - 2650 promised, 70 operational

41. Bid for UN Security Council seat - An expensive Rudd frolic

42.. MySchool Website - Revamped but problems continue

43. National Curriculum - States in uproar

44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House - 99% of small businesses reject it

45. Indigenous Housing Program - way behind schedule

46. Rudd Bank - Went nowhere

47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for Defence uniforms - Ditched

48. Innovation Ambassadors Program - junked

49. Six Submarines - none operational

50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion - to pay for all of this and much mor

The purpose of govt; is to talk and thrash discussion around. What you are saying doesn't mean a thing.

Dear Banjo,

Good on you for pointing out the "faults" of the
government. It's great to see such balanced
and fair posts from you and of course other
like-minded kindred spirits. You certainly raise the
level of debate and discussion on this forum.

Seriously, just for a bit of balance though - check
out the following website:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/tony-abbotts-blunder-will-haunt-him-as-pm/story-e6frgd0x-1226133501269

I could list all the blunders of Mr Abbott and Co - and the previous
Liberal governments - but heck - that would take more than several
posts - and I don't want to waste my time on something that we all
know anyway.

Banjo is game repeating something that is half baked and incorrect, Any thing ever said is taken as policy, maybe that is why Abbott says no, crap, written in blood. The Malaysia plan was to positive for Toni, He has made a monkey of himself, and won't go down lightly.

lexi,
Funny how you now refer to 'balance' in posts. You did not do so in the recent thread about John Howard. I do not see balance in your frequent critisisms of Abbott.

This thread is specificly about the present government and I welcome the opportunity to remind people of the stuff ups by the Rudd and Gillard governments. So thanks Butch, some people have short memories. Hope you post another thread some time.

As I have said before I have little time for either of the major parties, but this present mob are particularly stupid, inept and incompedent. Australia deserves a lot better.

Butch, you may have some knowledge of the NBN stuff up in Qld, where about 1000kls of cable had to be laid again because it was the wrong size. With the Qld election coming up don't forget which government and city council approved the subdivision of all those housing blocks that were flooded just 12 months ago. Which was it, corruption or just stupid incompedence?

Dear Banjo,

Sorry - not good enough. Your accusations don't hold much
water. Go back to the Andreas Berg thread about John Howard -
I actually defended Mr Howard. Kindly re-read all of my posts
on that thread. Of course your lack of comprehension skills
is not something I can do anything about - if you still don't
get it. As for my criticisms of Mr Abbott and co. - That comes
as a result of his presenting the wrong facts to people - and
I simply feel obliged to present the full picture.

As I've stated previously, I go for policies that make sense -
not follow blindly any particular party - despite what you may
infer.

Still to each his own. Whatever floats your boat.

As for the current government and their supposed stuff-ups?
All major innovations have had to deal with a certain
amount of risk taking - but
to do nothing is simply a lazy option and doesn't require much
effort at all. As I said in the Howard thread - history will
judge each government and their achievements and whether the
outcomes were positive or not.

Lexi,
I will not bother going back to the anti Howard thread. I accept your word that you did apply balance. I apoligise to you for my incorrect assumption. Considering the form of the last, and current PM, I cannot see how anyone could fairly rate Howard poorly. As I said to Butch, I have several critisisms of his government, but nothing compared to the current mob.

Like you, I rate government on performance and policies that make sence. Have a look at the list of Labor stuff ups and objectively see how many are simply stupid and ill thought out, or badly mismanaged. The illegal boat people issue is a classic example of stupid ideology being put before common sence. I certainly do not blindly follow any party, I go on performance.

I may vote for Labor some time in the future, but they will have to lift their game and put common sence into their policies for that to happen. In my opinion Labor needs a lot of new blood.

Labor needs a lot of new blood.
Banjo,
Labor needs to rid itself of the ALP. (Academics, Leeches, Preposterous).

Dear Banjo,

Thanks for being big enough to apologise.
That means a great deal to me. I agree with you
that neither side at present has any reason to
feel smug about things. Hopefully we will see
some changes for the better this year - on both
sides of the political divide. The year has only
just begun - so I guess we can only hope.

I think that whatever Government is in power at the time is fodder for everyone else's gripes, and that includes Howard's Liberal Party when he was in power.

That is just the nature of politics here in Australia.

I really don't care which party is in power, as long as Tony Abbott is never in the hot seat...

Those people who dig in the ashes of past civilizations often find more about them from the rubbish dumps.
This thread may one day provide such information.
Not however of the whole, but of those willing to glance at issues then form the wrong opinion, insisting it has worth.
Our Author started with a swipe at my words in another thread.
Miss quoted, changed the intentions I gave them,and hurled them, in the wrong direction.
Lists followed of nonexistent Labor crimes.
Mops and buckets had to be introduced to mop the floor as frothing mouths ran.
Still, better than a re run of Monty Python, even if less believable.

"It just a shame you don't recognize what a great set of numbers they inherited"

Maybe you are correct. They did inherit some good numbers but the world was heading for the GFC.

Also it is a fact that four years later, following the GFC, the numbers are still good or better.

What the doomsayers have been screaming from the roof tops in regard

Mr. Howard also, and he now acknowledges it, benefited from the good work done by the Hawke and Keating government.

it is getting a little boring to hear any of Labors achievements throbbed off by saying what great things the Howard government left.

The Howard government also left falling productivity and structural deficit within the budget. The Howard government may have done some good, but it was far from perfect.

No government is or can be perfect.

Each government has to be judge on how it behaves within the world wide environment of the times.

I do not believe that the Coalition would have cope with the GFC as effective as Labor did.

The Coalition would have went down the track of relying on tax cuts, which have been proven on their own not to work.

Saying what Mr. Howard did is not material, especially since it is over four years since he was in power.

Saying that the PM is the worse ever does not mean much. Say what you really mean. That is I do not agree with the Labor and the PM policies. It would be nice if one identifies what they did not agree with and why.

I suspect that many that criticise the PM would never agree with what she did.

Not liking or disagreeing with the PM, does not necessarily means that she is wrong. It only means that the government has different priories.

Flo said;
Also it is a fact that four years later, following the GFC, the
numbers are still good or better.

Really ? It appears not many realise what a dodgy situation our
economy is in. Our debt is still climbing. The government is now
going to increase our debt limit to $250,000,000,000 as they cannot
stop borrowing $2 billion a week.
That is just the "on balance sheet" Federal government debt.
The NBN for example is off the balance sheet.

The major problem is that neither party acknowledge what was the real
cause of the GFC.
They may well know but like the US cannot publically say it out loud.
Politics will flap around for some time trying to restart growth but
will be faced with decreasing growth and falling GDP.

Unfortunately we will watch them blaming each other and still not
grasping the nettle. The best we can hope for is that some outside
event, such as a long term blockage of the Hormuz Strait,or the
collapse of major European banks and or countries, will force
them to face the issue directly.

Treasury does not have a problem with the level of debt.

Yes, 579 that is a worry isn't it !
Still if you think it is business as usual then you might carry that
amount of debt but it is not BUA any more, we need to do as everyone
else is trying to do and cut debt back to zero.

The debt that is also among the lowest in the world.

There is much to show for the money spent.

If the money was not spent, unemployment would have been higher, businesses going to the wall and the debt greater.

We would now be in the same position as most other countries.

We would have had less receipts and greater outlays.

Here is just one paper I found on our debt problem.
There are many others for you to find.
This author unfortunately does not realise that we are entering a zero growth era.
If you have any doubt as to how big one trillion dollars is do a
google on "How big is a Trillion dollars".
Then consider where our banks get 40% of their funds from and how
fast China might continue its run down.

http://www.eap-journal.com/archive/v41_i3_02-mcgovern.pdf

Abstract
Sadly, all the efforts of a generation of Australian men and women have only made them
more indebted to the rest of the world. Australia’s external net wealth is negative, soon
passing minus $900b on an accelerating downward trajectory. This ongoing dissipation
of national resources is unsustainable. Australians live in a debt dreamtime, one from
which the rest of the world has been rudely awakened. After years of inadequate
policies, the nation has a large external debt and significant government exposures.
Servicing pressures are growing as rising uncertainties permeate global credit markets.
Reserve Bank policies are worsening Australia’s external position and needlessly
driving up internal costs. Major policy rethinking is warranted. Relevant issues are still
little considered, crowded out of dialogues by comforting myths that accompany the
Australian Debt Dreamtime. Imbalances need proper recognition with new approaches
and strategies developed. Automatic corrections will not occur as history and current
overseas experiences demonstrate. A real awakening, improved positioning and a touch
of luck are required if Australians are to avoid being seriously impoverished by world
events and their own confused Dreaming.

Take it easy Bazz, you will end up in an early grave. You can probably find 500 such comments around. The treasury are responsible for debt control, and they are comfortable, they also have the breakdown of who owes what.

I always found it ironic that the late B.A. Santamaria - who Howard greatly respected and who Abbott idolised to the point he was known as "Santa's Little Helper" - admitted that he thought he was "too old to hate, but he hated John Howard for what he had done to the Country".
Not exactly a vote of confidence between Conservatives.

The fact will always be that despite what they may think of Gillard, the voters were very clear about what they thought of Howard when the opportunity came and it will probably happen to Gillard in a couple of years as well.

So what?

Howard's was looking like a one-term Government after his first term too and he was considered a dud. There were knives out for him to in the back room and it was only the Costello/Reith stand-off that kept his position safe. "Jackboot Johnny" was not seen to be achieving very much either.

At his first election as PM he lost the bulk of his majority (as well as sacking 8 Ministers along the way) and the ALP won more primary votes (listening Tony?) at that election. So much for the concept of "mandates" and "non-core promises".

Two years is a long time in politics, let alone a week.

579, too late to worry about an early grave.

579, they havespent over four years screaming from the roof tops that disaster is coming. Maybe they are right, but the evidence is slow in coming.

Not liking or disagreeing with the PM, does not necessarily means that she is wrong. It only means that the government has different priories.
Flo,
There is an enormous difference between not liking someone & that someone influencing your life in a very negative way. Personally I find our PM lacking in charisma or whatever appeal some people have which makes them likeable. This however does not make me dislike her in the slightest degree, in fact I don't dislike her at all. My gripes is that I am being disadvantaged by what she & her gang are doing on a daily basis. John Howard made some bad social decisions but he was ok in an economic way. Gillard & co are undermining our social freedom & that's not good.

Flo said;
they havespent over four years screaming from the roof tops that
disaster is coming.

Actually since 1956. Hubbard forecast 2000, so being just five or six
years out from that time is I think a pretty good effort.
It was firmed up in the 1990s by Colin Campbell & Kjell Aklett.

Actually it is now not forecasting but history.

It became apparent only in the rear vision mirror.
It appeared in 2007 when the number of defaults on US home loan
mortgages started increasing very noticeably.
The peak of all liquids was in July 2008 when oil reached $147 a
barrel and was followed by the GFC in September 2008.

Now it drags on while we wait to see how long the plateau lasts.

So the evidence has been here and obvious from about that time.

"John Howard made some bad social decisions but he was ok in an economic way. Gillard & co are undermining our social freedom " that's not good."

I am a little puzzled, what social freedoms?

We still have a strong economy.

what social freedoms ?
Flo,
Asking that question is confirmation of the success of brainwashing.

As I suspected, a fancy sounding throw away line with no meaning.

Flo,
No, not a throwaway line at all. The whole idea of my reply was to make you realise that you've already come to accept the spin that we have a strong economy.
By social freedom I refer to the idiotic PC, permits needed to perform ablutions, acceptance of anything the authorities throw at you etc etc. Not putting up theAustralian flag because it might offend some hillbilly from the desert or giving more of your wage to those who don't work than what your own share is. The list is almost endless.
On the other hand perhaps ignorance is bliss.

Problem is that the facts do not support your assertions.

The economy may not be perfect but it is a long way from what you are alleging.

I need facts and figures, not your say so.

It could not be possible that you are the one swallowing spin.

you are the one swallowing spin
Flo,
I checked but it doesn't appear so.

John Howard is appreciated now that he has gone, he solved the boat people problem with his Pacific solution. Rudd turned this into the current nightmare by dismantling Howards way. Gillard is hamstrung by Bob Brown and his Greens. The Greens will always play spoiler and will never be satisfied in their quest for what is basically an illusion. Their perfect world would not work.

Will it never end ?
The latest is the report from BITRE 117.
Australian Government Oil Supply Trends.
Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economies.

It has been suppressed. The list of reports ends at 116 and then after
that the numbers are random. It has been removed from the sites involved.
It was released by a Paris based journalist after it had been sent to
other governments.
You can find it at;

http://ianmcpherson.com/blog/audioAustralian_Govt_Oil_supply_trends.pdf

More info of the hiding of the report can be found at;

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-01-20/australian-peaky-leaks-goes-mainstream

It was reported in the Daily Telegraph last week also.
It appears that the government's own report advises that oil supply
will start reducing permanently from 2016 but the govt does not want
the Australian public to know about it.

I guess they don't want to be asked what they are going to do about it.
I have read a lot of it and it looks to be a very thorough report and
comes to many of the same conclusions I have read elsewhere, such as
the Upsalla University Global Energy Groups reports which forecasts 2015.

I suspect that Martin Ferguson would not have suppressed it as he
is already aware, but it has the smell of Julia Gillard.