Pelican "I have not seen statistics specifically in relation to DV for men or women." if that's the case why "I also question your stats in relation to DV."

I've provided plenty of resources over a period of time, tried to avoid advocacy material (or pointed out where that's what it seems to be but I think it's still worthwhile).

It's quite clear that when both genders are asked similar questions that the numbers issue in DV is not particularly gendered and if anything it's slightly more women initiating DV than men.

If you've "not seen statistics specifically in relation to DV for men or women" that's been your choice, as I pointed out the paper I referenced ( http://lilt.ilstu.edu/mjreese/psy290/downloads/Archer%202000.pdf ) is a good coverage of the issue of numbers and why the disparity in reports.

I don't think it's advocacy work, have a look and tell me where they have got it significantly wrong.

R0bert

It's good to be consistent, Antiseptic.

>>Fortunately I'm scrupulously ethical and eschew such methods.<<

I note that you also "eschew" responding to the questions put to you.

So that's all right then.

Have a great day.

RObert
You are talking two different aspects of DV.

First, I said I had not seen any statistics in relation to DV based on your claims around suicide and DV. Workers in this field don't make decisions to provide assistance based on gender, it is irrelevant and they don't give a toss if the person is male or female. It is trite compared to the reality of suicide.

Secondly, I don't support the claim that women (overall) are more violent than men or that there are more male victims of DV than women. This does not mean I believe women to be as pure as the driven snow nor men as evil incarnate. It also does not mean I don't understand the statistics may not reflect the reality of DV especially how many men might be reflected in the statistics who were defending themselves.

Two different aspects of the same problem.

As an aside, one thing I have noticed of late is younger women being involved more and more in violent acts, not DV, but street violence or violent crime (like bashing up some poor taxi driver).

As someone who is getting on a bit in years, I find this pattern disappointing. Why is it occuring? One can summise it is lack of parental controls, social disadvantage or more violence in the media, probably all contributing but it is a disturbing trend.

As Germaine Greer once said, women fought for liberation and all they got was equality.
:)

Pericles:"I note that you also "eschew" responding to the questions put to you."

I try to avoid following the smelliest of red herrings, yes.

For example, this topic is not about whether it's OK for men to hit women, it's about whether it's OK for women to hit men. Therefore a question about men hitting women is at best tangential to the discussion, at worst a rather transparent attempt to pretend that anyone objecting to the one must atomatically approve of the other. That may work well down at the local feminist collective, but it's hardly germane to the discussion. Feel free to come up with useful questions and I'll do my best to answer them usefully.

Pelican, I tend to the view that none of the factors you mention have much relevance to female-initiated violence, since all of them have existed for a long time and the violence that you have observed is new. The one significant new factor is feminism, which has been telling girls that it's OK to hit boys and that boys musn't hit back for about 50-odd years, or about 2 generations. the mothers of these girls have learnt the lesson well and made sure their daughters are "good feminists" and one of the things good feminists do is refuse to take any kind of lip from men. Instead, they pick up a glass or an ashtray and bash them, or they simply stand there bashing them 20 times secure in the knowledge that there's nothing he can do to stop it.

At its heart is contemptible cowardice. It's not courageous to beat a muzzled dog, it's simply gutless abuse.

Pelican I hope that we've been talking at cross purposes. I'd strongly suggest a look at the link I've been referencing if you've still got doubts about DV victims not being mostly women.

From page 14 of the article (again the whole article is worth a read, one paragraph does not sum up the analysis)

"When measures were based on specific acts, women were significantly
more likely than men to have used physical aggression toward their partners and to have used it more frequently, although the effect size was very small (d = -.05). When measures were based on the physical consequences of aggression (visible injuries or injuries requiring medical treatment), men were more likely than women to have injured their partners, but again, effect sizes were relatively small (d = .15 and .08)."

I'd like to see the numbers game out of the discussion but the oft repeated lie that women are mostly the victims is used over and over again to try and dismiss attempts to address concerns such as the ones Antiseptic raised in this thread. We don't seem to be able to progress understanding of DV while the lie that DV is something that men do to women holds so much power in peoples thinking.

I've not seen any serious work on the DV/suicide stuff (gender or otherwise), a topic that does not seem to attract much interest from the DV industry. No numbers at hand but my understanding is that females do a lot more attempted suicides than men, men do a lot more successful suicides than women and there are conflicting views on what proportion of attempts are cries for help rather than genuine attempts to end the persons life.

R0ber

Anti over the years we both have posted here I have seen you say things a little harshly.
And not agreed ,some times, with you.
But for the most part you speak for other men.
I think you, like me, would take a lot of provocation before considering hitting a woman.
But remain baffled by the thought NO WOMAN is ever wrong.
I increasingly fear the future impacts of not womans equality, but for far too many the word is DOMINATION.
Very few will contest some men dominate, even less females will admit women do too.
Any pub, around here at least, has its females wanting to be male table.
Chance walking too close if you are brave, in an effort to prove they are what they are not, man like you may get a fight you never wanted.
All they got was EQUALITY? is that an admission they want more still?