Why, thank you, Antiseptic.

>>Pericles, I'll be kind and assume your lack of ability to mount a cogent argument without deliberately misrepresenting the other side or flinging ad hominem is due to some form of debilitation rather than mere decrepitude.<<

Kindness personified, I'd say.

Misrepresentation and ad hominem do not, of course, feature at all in your own offerings. Thank goodness for that, it would be simply horrid if you had to resort to insults to make your point.

But it might be worth thinking things over a little more.

>>I am very concerned for my son and for my daughter for that matter. I would hate to have either of them affected negatively by a social model that tries to deny human realities<<

I wonder which "human realities" you have in mind here?

To me, the "human reality" is that men don't hit women, because it is against nature. Is denying this a good idea, do you think? And how would denying it negatively affect your children?

Or is it the "human reality" that we have assault laws, that allow anyone who has been assaulted to lay a complaint against their aggressor? Why would you want to deny those "human realities"?

Perhaps you had something else in mind? Since I would hate to misrepresent you, perhaps you could clarify?

I suspect the social model is, by and large, still intact. The little scenario that Mr Waterstreet described for us so vividly does not "negatively affect" that social model, nor does it shift the world off its axis.

As I said at the outset, context is everything.

Pericles:"Kindness personified, I'd say.

Misrepresentation and ad hominem do not, of course, feature at all in your own offerings. Thank goodness for that, it would be simply horrid if you had to resort to insults to make your point."

It would indeed. Fortunately I'm scrupulously ethical and eschew such methods.

Suse, you've come a long way since the start of the thread. I must congratulate you.

Pelican:"Maybe the new masculinist movment is part of this social change just as the feminists said 'enough is enough' now men are doing the same."

Perhaps. I'd like to hope that some moderate voices making sound points in a variety of media and social contexts, pointing out the incongruities and overarching preconceptions that inform so much of the discussion would have some ameliorating impact on the worst excesses.This discussion has already moved a long way from the initial kneejerking and that's not bad in its own way.

Thanks for the link Houellie, I didn't realise how dangerous a vagina could be until I got divorced.

R0bert, speaking of male suicide, it appears that the ute which collided with the B-double truck at Urunga a couple of days a go, killing an 11yr old boy, was unaccountably driving on the wrong side of the road, with a single occupant male driver, at high speed, for some time.He was also killed, as he no doubt intended.

RObert
I have not seen statistics specifically in relation to DV for men or women. I was involved in a job once where attempts at suicide were taken very seriously - gender didn't come into it.

There is nothing wrong with approaching 'solutions' from a specific aspect including gender sometimes. In the same way that other factors - age, impact of disaster, urban vs rural, divorce, illness - where any one might at different times, hold centre stage.

Ideally no group should be ignored and I believe this is largely the case thanks to strong influences from groups like Beyond Blue and Lifeline.

Houlley
'Not even that really. Nothing to do with equality, just recognising that there doesn't HAVE to even be a victim and abuser, and such categorisations are often entirely innacurate...'

Sure Houlley, there obvious behaviours that increase the risk of injury in a confrontational situation. There is a good case for education for boys and girls around risky behaviours and learning how to diffuse a situation rather than inflame it. If these things can even be 'learnt' (as opposed to taught).

Forgetting the nuances, there are cases where there is a clear victim and clear perpetrator (either gender). This does not diminish your argument that these lines can be blurred when, for example, a woman may indeed be the primary attacker or at least equally responsible. Society tends to see the woman as victim and I do understand the difficulties men face in making a decision to defend themselves. Possibly a lose-lose situation.

Unfortunately though (I can hear your sigh) victim blaming does occur even in legitimate situations. In law a crime is a crime, the justice system does not (in modern times) take into account in sentencing, any idiocy on the part of the 'victim'. (Whether it be walking the streets at night eg.rape or leaving a handbag unattended for a short period eg. theft.)

As far as victim blaming is concerned, claims need to be judged in case context, otherwise one is comparing apples and oranges.

Antiseptic seems to be conflicting versions of events around.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/max-macgregor-of-urunga-crushed-to-death-while-he-slept-after-truck-crashed-through-his/story-e6freuzi-1226239403813

http://www.nambuccaguardian.com.au/news/national/national/general/why-sleeping-max-died-ute-forced-truck-to-swerve-into-house-say-police/2414171.aspx

I'd not be keen to speculate in this instance but there are enough confirmed suicides to be worthy of some serious work on the driving causes.

I don't think that emotional abuse from a spouse would be the sole factor but have little doubt that it's one, combined with the attitude that men should just tough it out, harden the f$#k up, "Live with it." etc.

There is clearly some stuff that's not working for many men. Having seen first hand how difficult it is to get support to get a violent spouse stopped and how gender loaded the family law system is/was the suggestions that men get support or can easily leave are wishful thinking rather than reality for many.

The question was asked earlier about the authors response, I don't know his motivations but generally I think that people are so used to the gender paradigm for DV that when confronted with a different view most either refuse to see it or don't know how to react.

That in no way should take away from acknowledgement of the horrible experiences some women have with male partners as some seem to think, both genders are capable of great good and great wrong.

R0bert

RObert, I don't agree that nothing is done to address the male suicide rates. Certainly here in country WA it is taken very seriously indeed, with far more young country men committing suicide than city men.

The local mental health team in our country towns work very hard to attract males to self-help groups and social groups etc.

Men should be encouraged to stop this 'I'm tough, and I don't need help attitude', when they are suffering from some inner turmoil.

Don't forget though, that all these men have many female friends and family in their lives who love them. So I don't believe it is a gender problem that is stopping us working on this awful problem together.

This subject is a very difficult one, and it won't be worked out any time soon, unfortunately.

I would like to place a small wager here.
I dd not notice any man promote the thought a woman should be even hit here.
But note in this mornings media a man has been sacked.
For saying SOME Muslim men in detention are teaching the kids it is ok to bash the wife.
Bet it gets less coverage here.
Got to go a truck load of Halos is about to arrive for the villages angels, women only of course.