Interesting thread.

What happened to freedom?

In trying to answer that question the source of the diffculty
lies in the way "freedom" is defined. In our society we are
primarily concerned with freedom "of": freedom of speech,
freedom of the individual to make a fortune. Other societies
may be more concerned with freedom "from": freedom from want,
freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from
exploitation by people who want to make a fortune. We interpret
freedom as meaning "liberty" others may interpret it as
meaning "equality."

Liberty and equality are uneasy bedfellows. In general, the more
you have of one, the less you will have of the other. Your
liberty to be richer than anyone else violates other people's
rights to be your equal; other people's rights ot by your
equal violates your liberty to earn more than anyone else.

Most Western European countries have chosen a middle-way, that
of "democratic socialism," they attempt to balance the demands
of liberty and equality more evenly.

There is no way to prove that any one is more desirable, moral,
or "right" than any other. The question is a matter of philosophic
preference.

Most of us tend to simply accept the system we've been socialised
to believe in. Very few people rationally consider the
alternatives. Perhaps it's time we did.

Precisely Hasbeen, out of self interest you feel it appropriate to exploit (your words).

"In a true democracy, as an employer I would be free to offer any job to anyone I liked, for what ever the work was worth to me".

The greater good is not within a country mile of that statement. By any job you mean; even if that job, does not provide appropriate opportunity to the employee to progress or maintain their living standards. You probably expect loyalty as well ?.

If this true democracy of yours actually existed Hasbeen, we would not have progressed from 5 yr olds down coal mines pulling buggys' with their teeth.

And of course you base your thought process upon "the notion of the sanctity of business above all". A notion destructive to all except the business operator. In the end as the French aristocracy found out by guillotine, being rich and powerful without a friend in the world, also has it's down side.

Instead of bludgers being your worry Hasbeen , your real fear, is of your best and most productive employees, having the option to relinquish your sanctimonious control, for a real job.

I cannot get my head around the idea, that one person (being the business operator ), should have sanctity over the rules of engagement when it comes to wages and working conditions. Isn't this why we have elected Govt's ?, to ensure that people are not being exploited ?. Isn't this what we refer too as a social fabric ?.

I have the title for your book Hasbeen, "How to run a business, without really caring".

For once SM I agree with you, the Labor Party are equally culpable when it comes to the nanny state. No longer a party of libertarian social democrats, they mimic their conservative opponents. That is why I'm leaning Green.

There is a word for allowing the one with the whip hand to make the decisions for the all, it is "dictatorship". Or in Hasbeens dictionary "true democracy".

*If your skills are inadequate to provide you with the standard of living you desire, go get some more valuable skills.*

Exactly! Somehow Thinker 2 and some others think that the world
owes them a living and the only reason for business to exist,
should be to provide them with a cushy lifestyle.

Thinker 2, if employers get it so wrong, so start your own business
and become your own employer. A bucket, broom and a mop and
you've got "Thinker 2 Cleaning Services" just about ready to go.

Sheesh, but then we would have to actually think, rather then
just complain about the world. Even work, sheesh the horror of it
all.

Thanks for your input Pelican, I see this process happening through my ageing eyes, it's not fun. Petty politics is really not the point as our freedom gets absorbed into the economic shadows. This has excelerated as Govt's of both persuasions partner business in the process. A classic nanny state example in recent news is nicotine patches etc; we now find that the only way that the overwhelming majority give up the weed is cold turkey. Patches just prolong the process. To add insult to injury, "how do we map the health damages caused by the use of patches down the track". Truth is we will never know anyway.

A insignificant example I know, but medically fraudulent and collusive with Gov't, to say the least. May I add, "wilfully designed to exploit people with a drug addiction". An instrument of control more than a solution to the problem. I hope we can stay on subject and not descend into party politics and thereby start discussing the core problems for a change.

I totally agree with yours thoughts Lexi and your summation that freedom is an economic condition. Thats central in my own view. As for the balance, I make the point that freedom in this country particularly has diminished in my life time. The balance upset and slanted towards the big end of town. Workplace lockout ability is a good example of this, imagine if a hospital did this, or refused emergency medical treatment because the recipient couldn't pay for it. Neither of these things are un-realistic.

Teeth already symbolise financial capacity in our country today and with that comes opportunity or lack of it despite the capacity of the person behind those teeth. We voted against a national dental health scheme when we chose Howard over Keating in 96.

From what I can tell institutional businesses have such rights in Australia today. How far do we take this ?, Do we in future let the privately owned water monopoly owners, cut off the water because the consumers wont work for cheaper wages just for the sovereign sanctity of business above all else ?. "Of course we wouldn't", in my belief. So why let it head in that direction ?.

Liberty assists equality Lexi at certain point. Prohibitions are a good example. Making something illicit creates a market for it. Some people get filthy rich , others end up oppressed by them. Imagine if the Govt suddenly said' tobacco is prohibited, but said you could get a nicotine patch at a price from them instead. Illicit tobacco would flourish, the Govt would be complicit.

While we still enjoy some semblance of democracy in the West it is all too easily lost without vigilance, to quote Pelican.

I hope we can think our way off this downward spiral Lexi

cheers T2

What happened to Freedom ?

People got sucked into Steve Jobs IMed phenomenon and sold their soles to the devil. From there nothing else mattered! Politics, what's that? But they want to detain you indefinitely without a trial. Is that a new app for my Imed? Bah what can I do I can't change anything. There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead! Where can I download that app, what does it do?