The freedom of my youth no longer exists today. Unfortunately the young with no experience of actual freedom are the last to know.

With nanny state/media control, the destruction of social and economic freedom encroaches with each passing minute.

Over the break we were barraged with advertising from the police assuring us "that they will get us" with their random blitz invasions upon our privacy. They spoiled the whole christmas break for mine and had nil effect upon road toll outcomes anyway.

In my day police were required to target criminal behavior and law breaking. They had no such right to invade the privacy of citizens going about their daily business. Refusing such a random invasion to your privacy is now against the law based upon the false principal of the greater good. Of course giving authority excessive power has a similar effect upon society to giving criminals open slather. Both effect freedom negatively.

Freedom is non existent in the workplace, as expecting a pay rise to make up for the rising cost of living is now regarded anti-social. Forming a collective to protect the living standards of the working population(e.g. union), is thought militant.

When your privatized essential service provider whacks your electricity bill by 20% over the new year , not one person purportedly representing your interests in Govt will do anything to prevent or question such willful greed or unnecessary profit. At the same time your Govt reps will expect the taxpayer to make up the shortfall in infrastructure maintenance, not spent by the same greedy profiteers.Or alternatively, expect you to accept that your electricity be switched off during a heat wave as fire prevention.

Should you seek to mass and demonstrate such we have seen recently with the occupy protests, then you can expect to be dragged away by the throat by the very same police paid to protect your right to free speech.Should go to an outdoor concert you can expect to be sniffed by a dog with an 80% fail rate and still get stripped search should deny allegations made by a dog.

con't

At the bottom of page 1 is Cont'd but where is it cont'd ?

a good start...but the clever[est]..guys
running the globe got it all sown-up....

the most horrible dictraiters have lowerd the standard..[govt is for proffit now..not just proffiteering and serving exploiters]

its not personal..
just keep the working slobs working
for one dollar less than they can survive on...but..[never let them actually 'live' the dreams sold them..in the media]

protesting dont work..
you might get a busload at most we will dare resist
[and any bigger your a threat;read terrorist..or anarchist.]

the minute one lone voice becomes two
the other echo..is a govt stooge there to make sure
nuthin changes...who can we trust to be a number too

thats why i blog as a loner
10 years of activism..didnt change nuthin
heck most were just setups to allow the appearance of balance

freedom is a concept..slaves cant concieve
nanny knows best how to lull the child back to sleep

anyhow i decided to give it one more year...[blogging ..not pro-testing]..

i tested...and there is no alter-native
so im pretty much over it..[all of it]

if words cant fix it
nuthin will

T2,

Considering that the Labor you love is the architect of the nanny state, all I can say is that now maybe you can see a fraction of what is wrong with Labor's social engineering.

You Got it right. How many people know about the changes to the PPRA act in Qld. passed without so much as a 'by your leave' the police now have the power to detain you, search you, enter your home, search for anything they suspect is illegal, all without warrent and with a statement of 'reasonable suspicion' which is so broad that mickey mouse can get away with it. As an example of this in road enforcement, just do a file search on 'kippa-ring cops.zip' on fileserve and download it [ free]. You'll get the 'picture'.

Sounds like an unjustified gripe to me. Road carnage costs big bucks, so when people get the idea you have to follow road rules, nothing will change. Serial offenders should be off the road immediately. They put the lives of non offenders at risk. Dogs don't tell lies, Shows the mentality of the sort of person that go to them places. People that draw attention to themselves are the greatest whingers. They know right from wrong, but if you don't break the law it aint fun.

It's gone, the left didn't like what we appreciated & worked for. They're only interested in our money. Sad lot really.

Apologies Garum Masala, my dodgy internet has been dropping out due too (I assume) higher than usual usage. I've let Malcolm Turnbull know.

cont...

In health now we are expected "to insure ourselves" instead of being guaranteed quality health care when we really need it "despite our financial position", as it was, when we had our own public health system.

Having the freedom to better yourself by going from one real job to another real job without having to seek the intervention of agent or loosely termed "employment service", that is actually is an urger for employers, touting promises of opportunity instead of actually providing them, is devastating to ones freedom. Having to accept the job you can get after being processed by the system, means that you are actually (in reality) going nowhere baby, no matter what you do, your treading water.

* A "real job" is one where it is incumbent upon employers (and the Gov't as well) to guarantee your living standards*. e.g. if the cost of living increases, so do your wages, thereby guaranteeing your living standards. This keeps everyone honest and naturally puts the breaks on inflation.

Today the employee is expected to improve the living standards of the employer in exchange for job security alone, while the cost of living is determined by the un-tramelled greed of corporations without social responsibility.

The notion of, "there is nothing you can do about this", is most deeply instilled in the young . In a conversation, in which I was trying to explain wage indexation and it's positive effect on freedom with a 19 year old, response had descended too "I couldn't give a flying F", before the information was absorbed.

Freedom and understanding it, is much more important than party politics Individual. I was hoping this post would be about that. It is an unfortunate historical fact, ( for the conservative side of australian politics) that the Labor Party has initiated and built public infrastructure and the LNP has sold it. cont...

My post (I hope) draws attention to the simple fact, that owning your stuff, is a good thing.

The last thing you really need,(if it is freedom you want in democratic capitalism), is to employ some one to sell you your stuff at a profit for them, for rest of your life by choice.

And this folks, is where your freedom went.

I can only but agree thinker2.

While many waste time with distractions about imaginary Left conspiracies, democratic rights continue to be eroded and privacy/freedoms diminished. The youth have nothing of which to compare. Many already accept was once the unacceptable and corporatism is the new norm. While we still enjoy some semblance of democracy in the West it is all too easily lost without vigilance.

The trends of wedge politics and cultural predeliction to take 'sides' coupled with a growing paranoia to be seen as right about everything at all times rather than to question the guff one is fed from both sides of politics, I don't see much hope for common sense to prevail.

Many still view the economy as a living and independent beast that requires 'productive' souls to feed it rather than manipulating the system to work for the interests of individuals. The public are continually being sold a pup and are duped every time. This is recognised in the eternal debate about business versus labour as you point out.

@579. One think that gets up my nose is people making retorical comments without bothering to verify the facts. Typical of lazy %$#@^ queenslanders. GO get the file! now look at the photo. If I was the police commissioner, I would sack these clowns on the spot.

What tripe thinker, the post of a would be bludger.

What responsibility for your living standard should an employer have? None at all.

If your skills are inadequate to provide you with the standard of living you desire, go get some more valuable skills. If you can't live on laborers wages, become a tradesman. It's up to you what you earn, not your employer.

In a true democracy, as an employer I would be free to offer any job to anyone I liked, for what ever the work was worth to me. An employee would be free to accept or reject that job. The fact that some idiot bungs on a carbon tax is no reason why I should have to pay you more. In fact it is probably reason why I should pay you less, as my profits may reduce. Next thing you'll be expecting more money if you have more kids.

I should also be able to get rid of anyone who is no longer of any use to me. Why should I have to give anyone assured employment for life, when they can walk out, with all the training I will have put into them, at a weeks notice? Where's the equity in that?

If you're a Queenslander the reason you're paying ever increasing charges is that grinning fool Beattie. He ran all our public infrastructure down, extracting more money from it, to cover his incompetence, then got it off the government books, just before it collapsed due to lack of maintenance. Our power was falling down, & Brisbane had no water. Isn't Labor great?

He spent a fortune of our money on water infrastructure, only so he could steel the water conserved by prudent local councils, to supply it to his favoured Brisbane. Guess what, that multi billion system can't be used to save water by moving excess Wivenhoe water to the expanded Gold Coast dam, it is just for Brisbane.

You know I can't imagine why Labor are so on the nose, can you?

Interesting thread.

What happened to freedom?

In trying to answer that question the source of the diffculty
lies in the way "freedom" is defined. In our society we are
primarily concerned with freedom "of": freedom of speech,
freedom of the individual to make a fortune. Other societies
may be more concerned with freedom "from": freedom from want,
freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from
exploitation by people who want to make a fortune. We interpret
freedom as meaning "liberty" others may interpret it as
meaning "equality."

Liberty and equality are uneasy bedfellows. In general, the more
you have of one, the less you will have of the other. Your
liberty to be richer than anyone else violates other people's
rights to be your equal; other people's rights ot by your
equal violates your liberty to earn more than anyone else.

Most Western European countries have chosen a middle-way, that
of "democratic socialism," they attempt to balance the demands
of liberty and equality more evenly.

There is no way to prove that any one is more desirable, moral,
or "right" than any other. The question is a matter of philosophic
preference.

Most of us tend to simply accept the system we've been socialised
to believe in. Very few people rationally consider the
alternatives. Perhaps it's time we did.

Precisely Hasbeen, out of self interest you feel it appropriate to exploit (your words).

"In a true democracy, as an employer I would be free to offer any job to anyone I liked, for what ever the work was worth to me".

The greater good is not within a country mile of that statement. By any job you mean; even if that job, does not provide appropriate opportunity to the employee to progress or maintain their living standards. You probably expect loyalty as well ?.

If this true democracy of yours actually existed Hasbeen, we would not have progressed from 5 yr olds down coal mines pulling buggys' with their teeth.

And of course you base your thought process upon "the notion of the sanctity of business above all". A notion destructive to all except the business operator. In the end as the French aristocracy found out by guillotine, being rich and powerful without a friend in the world, also has it's down side.

Instead of bludgers being your worry Hasbeen , your real fear, is of your best and most productive employees, having the option to relinquish your sanctimonious control, for a real job.

I cannot get my head around the idea, that one person (being the business operator ), should have sanctity over the rules of engagement when it comes to wages and working conditions. Isn't this why we have elected Govt's ?, to ensure that people are not being exploited ?. Isn't this what we refer too as a social fabric ?.

I have the title for your book Hasbeen, "How to run a business, without really caring".

For once SM I agree with you, the Labor Party are equally culpable when it comes to the nanny state. No longer a party of libertarian social democrats, they mimic their conservative opponents. That is why I'm leaning Green.

There is a word for allowing the one with the whip hand to make the decisions for the all, it is "dictatorship". Or in Hasbeens dictionary "true democracy".

*If your skills are inadequate to provide you with the standard of living you desire, go get some more valuable skills.*

Exactly! Somehow Thinker 2 and some others think that the world
owes them a living and the only reason for business to exist,
should be to provide them with a cushy lifestyle.

Thinker 2, if employers get it so wrong, so start your own business
and become your own employer. A bucket, broom and a mop and
you've got "Thinker 2 Cleaning Services" just about ready to go.

Sheesh, but then we would have to actually think, rather then
just complain about the world. Even work, sheesh the horror of it
all.

Thanks for your input Pelican, I see this process happening through my ageing eyes, it's not fun. Petty politics is really not the point as our freedom gets absorbed into the economic shadows. This has excelerated as Govt's of both persuasions partner business in the process. A classic nanny state example in recent news is nicotine patches etc; we now find that the only way that the overwhelming majority give up the weed is cold turkey. Patches just prolong the process. To add insult to injury, "how do we map the health damages caused by the use of patches down the track". Truth is we will never know anyway.

A insignificant example I know, but medically fraudulent and collusive with Gov't, to say the least. May I add, "wilfully designed to exploit people with a drug addiction". An instrument of control more than a solution to the problem. I hope we can stay on subject and not descend into party politics and thereby start discussing the core problems for a change.

I totally agree with yours thoughts Lexi and your summation that freedom is an economic condition. Thats central in my own view. As for the balance, I make the point that freedom in this country particularly has diminished in my life time. The balance upset and slanted towards the big end of town. Workplace lockout ability is a good example of this, imagine if a hospital did this, or refused emergency medical treatment because the recipient couldn't pay for it. Neither of these things are un-realistic.

Teeth already symbolise financial capacity in our country today and with that comes opportunity or lack of it despite the capacity of the person behind those teeth. We voted against a national dental health scheme when we chose Howard over Keating in 96.

From what I can tell institutional businesses have such rights in Australia today. How far do we take this ?, Do we in future let the privately owned water monopoly owners, cut off the water because the consumers wont work for cheaper wages just for the sovereign sanctity of business above all else ?. "Of course we wouldn't", in my belief. So why let it head in that direction ?.

Liberty assists equality Lexi at certain point. Prohibitions are a good example. Making something illicit creates a market for it. Some people get filthy rich , others end up oppressed by them. Imagine if the Govt suddenly said' tobacco is prohibited, but said you could get a nicotine patch at a price from them instead. Illicit tobacco would flourish, the Govt would be complicit.

While we still enjoy some semblance of democracy in the West it is all too easily lost without vigilance, to quote Pelican.

I hope we can think our way off this downward spiral Lexi

cheers T2

What happened to Freedom ?

People got sucked into Steve Jobs IMed phenomenon and sold their soles to the devil. From there nothing else mattered! Politics, what's that? But they want to detain you indefinitely without a trial. Is that a new app for my Imed? Bah what can I do I can't change anything. There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead! Where can I download that app, what does it do?

Yabby I suppose I should mention that I was self employed for 30 yrs or more. I am very satisfied with my skill set. I still love what I do I still love my wife of 38 yrs. All my kid are grown up, I have a small mortgage. I have to say that overall I'm happy. Thanks for asking.

cheers T2

Dear Thinker 2,

I don't think we have all that much to worry
about. I feel that our representative democracy can
continue to thrive because of the following conditions:

Firstly we are an advanced economy which contains
an urbanized, literate, and sophisticated population
that expects some participation in the political process.
We are politically stable, because our large middle-class
has a stake in the system and would be reluctant to support
political upheavals of any kind.

In societies with a large, impoverished lower class - such
as most of the nations of Africa, Asia, and Latin America -
there are likely to be strong opposition from the ruling
class to any meaningful extension of democratic rights.

Next we have institutional checks on the power of the state.
We have laws limiting the exercise of power,
constitutional arrangements for getting rid of officials as
well as guarantees of free criticism by the press and other
media. We also have informal restraints expressed in widely
shared norms and values, set limits that public officials
dare not violate. These underlying assumptions about the
"rules of the game" are an invisible but vital part of our
democratic system that protects us.

We also have a tolerance of dissent. A tolerance of criticism and
of dissenting opinions - to me that is fundamental in a
democracy.

And finally we allow our citizens to make informed choices.
We don't deny them access to information that they need to make
these choices. Our media is not censored, our citizens have
the right of free speech, and we insist that public officials
tell the truth.

We also have a diffusion of power - we distribute it to state
and local governments - power is spread beyond government into other
institutions and organisations.

The existence of separate centers of power
in labour unions, corporations, churches,
and elsewhere,
provides a system in our
country of checks and balances
and ensures that each group must
take account of the others.

In my opinion we are a "lucky country." But of course we do
need to remain vigilant to keep it so.

Socialists griping at the lack of freedom. Amazing. Look in the mirror.

And then it turns out that what they mean by freedom is free handouts!

Freedom isn't free! It means you've got to grow up, and take responsibility for your life. Thinker2 has done nothing in here but cry for *more* government restrictions - the opposite of freedom. More total confusion from the ones causing the problem they are complaining about.

Peter Hume,

I don't know who you are but labelling people actually
adds nothing to the discussion. Kindly try again -
and this time please be slightly more specific.
Thanks.

Lexi my dear, you have missed perhaps the most important thing that keeps us free.

We have a defence force who would, nearly to a man, shout "UP YOURS" if ever a Julia or anyone else directed them to take action against the Oz population.

None of the things you mention have much effect, if a potential dictator has the loyalty of the military, & the police force, particularly a secret police.

While we don't have a military class, with superior living standards to everyone else, we are pretty safe.

Dear Hasbeen,

Re-read my previous post. And then perhaps you'll understand
why what you are suggesting would never happen in our country.

At this point, the argument for the "business without boundary's" case is, that anyone whom opposes the view that business priorities alone should dictate for the rest of us, are bludgers, whingers or socialists.

Your usual case Peter Hume of advocating un-tramelled market ideologies, may not be that pertinent this time, in that the proposition I'm making is, "that autocracy looms on the horizon, because Govt now represents business, not the public. This by definition is excelerating the pace of suppression of the freedom of the individual by economics.

This goes largely unnoticed by the young, because they lack the capacity to identify it. The "powerful third party" the media, also strengthens and adds pace to this process.

How would you go about fixing this problem Peter Hume ?.

I think I speak for most Australians when I say I am dissatisfied by my phone company, my electricity supplier, my decreasing opportunity and living standards, I am dissatisfied with being corralled by automated business systems divesting me from any opportunity of consumer justice, I am dissatisfied with the fact that my wages have not kept pace with the cost of living and I am dissatisfied Govt representatives of all colours for colluding in this process. And there is no real reason, why this should be happening (to coin Lexi), in "the lucky country" other than the greed of the few.

Blows your theory out of the water does it not PH, when all the crooks are on the same side. Govt and control freaks.

*because Govt now represents business, not the public.*

Thinker 2, do you really think that Kim Carr is in the USA, pleading
with Ford, no doubt offering them money, because he loves Ford?

Or could it be because he's worried about jobs for the public?

Unlike yourself it seems, politicians understand the importance of
business to the economy and to jobs, and if the economy is crook,
they will be out on their ear at the next election.

Never forget, business is voluntary and in today's world, if you
try and push them around too much, they will pick up their bat and
ball and go and play elsewhere, for its a large world out there.

Yabby,is just too simplistic.Thinker2 is right.So is Ron Paul.We need smaller Govt that is not controlled by big parasitic business.Govt can be made to be more accountable with a proper constitution.

Business and Govt have now colluded to marginalise the real productive economy under the guise of false environmentalism.It will not end well for you or anyone of integrity.

*Yabby,is just too simplistic*

Lol Arjay, no doubt it is, for you. Nothing would appeal to
a conspiracy nutcase, without imaging conspiracies!

Try the KISS theory for once, its in fact commonly quite accurate.

Next you'll be telling us that the Govt don't want to win another
term in office, that jobs and the economy won't matter in all this
and that if companies like Ford shut up shop in Australia, it
won't affect jobs or the economy.

I'm not so sure I'm talking about the size of Gov't Arjay, so much as the function of Gov't.
And perhaps I should mention at this point, bludgers ,whingers ,socialists "and conspiracy theorists" (lol).

The Govts we get now act on behalf of business not the constituent public. The question is no longer "which party ?" because both act exactly the same in practice. There is no doubt in my mind that the last conservative Howard Gov't, virtually destroyed our legal system, if you are talking about the Legal Practices Act , the Trade Practices Act, Consumer Affairs and Workplace Relations Acts etc and so on ad infinitum.

It is within this broken law framework that either party in Govt must operate.

The ACCC for example is a toothless instrument with little power to actually do anything, that replaced a body with real actual power. They have failed for the most part in their attempts at prosecuting wrongdoers, because they are basically legless and armless, with little or no investigative capacity and with little or no actual law to support any endeavours they may initiate, too seek justice for the actual constituents, us.

I wasn't for a minute suggesting Arjay that the climate conspiracy was part of this. Although I do agree, it does show evidence that almost everyone at the top end is up too their eye balls in fraud at some level, with climate science fraud ,medical fraud, scientific fraud, economic audit fraud (a new one from the Abbott team), (I hope this answers the question of whom would be worse Howard or Abbott Rehctub), and just plain fraud.

Living in a world where the price of a good or service is determined by the intention of the provider or employer alone, and the gullibility or not, of the purchaser/consumer/worker to accept that without some real set of of rules or ethical understandings is damaging the social structure for most people, this in term compromises freedom, I believe.

So Thinker 2, lets cut the waffle.

Should the Govt provide Ford, GM and Toyota with further 100s of
millions of Dollars to keep their Australian plants open,
or should they stop molly coddling these companies and let consumers
rule? Jobs lost would be in the order of 200'000, if they shut
down Australian production.

Who is the Govt protecting here, companies or workers?

40,000 jobs protected
for 40 million..[is what 1000 per job?]

thats less than the dole
its what gm and ford and many others 'do'

even if it was obnly 20,000 jobs this 40 million protects
thats 2,000..[still much less than the dole]

but wait..then there is the green car scam
120 million to that?

whats the total number
what is the real number

how many of these 40,000 jobs
is just importing and adding extra cost
on simply re-packing imported product..

thing is its so secret
whats the whole true numbers

but this toopic is about freedom
what happend to it...is

that we pay taxes..so our govt can kep us working
for mulitinational corperations...that follow the money

we build into products..use by dates[see the toner ink cartrage scam..or timed web acces...and other enronesque type charging

[as much as the market will bear]
with the big ab-users..getting much more than the base users

like paying upfront acces fees
and reduced pricing..for the huge users
[subsidised by the mugs..in coach class..the rotted teeth mob]

but wait
mention was made of peter beatup
[who gifted half a billion..BILLION!..to a mate
to build a magnesium plant in gladstone...PLUS HOHARD..kicked in another half a billion[lol to underwites shareholders payments..for 5 years

ON A PLANT lol
THAT NEVER GOT BUILT!

then there is this faint echo
i keep hearing of 12 BILLION gifts/subsidies..to big petrol
[does that include tax egsemption for farmers and some elect big multinational truckers]

at least were free to talk about it
but the kids are too dumbed down via the propaganda sold them in the de-education schooling the fool system..for half of em to be able to even read the remedy..

if its not in a 200 word limit
they cant read it..twit witts indeed

how much gmo in our foodchain now
what its 3rd generation affect[sterility]
but the gmo scam goes on..[subsidised in near all our education systems...with mulitnationals collecting all the intelectual patents]

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/01/monsantos-gmo-corn-approved-despite.html

yes we are watched,..[to protect us]..
http://mytechnologyworld9.blogspot.com/2012/01/tsa-top-10-good-catches-of-2011.html

yes we cant control
the multinational druggies
cause our agencies deliver it for them
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/01/09/us-agents-laundered-money-shipped-drugs-for-cartels/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17277

protest can work
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/05/wild-old-women-close-san-francisco-bank-of-america-branch/
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0103/occupy.html

but media silence
too busy laying spin
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-10/obama-ready-to-strike-to-stop-nuclear-iran-ex-adviser-says.html
http://undertheradarmedia.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=4083

bailout again to mates[in the know][20%]
nuthin for the 80%..vague govt dis-traction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/09/80-percent-homeowners-ineligible-loan-modification_n_1194725.html

police in schools..[wolves ammoung the sheep]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/09/texas-police-schools
http://12160.info/forum/topics/us-customs-can-and-will-seize-laptops-and-cellphones-demand?xg_source=msg_forum_disc

does smoking really cause cancer
http://lewrockwell.com/orig6/larosa6.1.1.html
but the media wont tell ya

so ya gotta search the info for yourself
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

or not
it all depends on what mindset
you lot..have be got

I acknowledge Yabby that your question is a valid one.

The answer I believe lies in the relative goals of the parent Companies in the States.

As would be the case in the defence of Australia, if the chips were really down, the U.S. , would serve it's own interests first, in the end. The Gm's and Fords of the world and their own viability is also dependent/propped up by their own taxpayers. This is a temporary bandaid solution at best. Rules and time frames are already set in advance, heralding the next round of taxpayer handouts, with Ford saying that this current $34 million handout will last them to 2016.

I don't think we can continue this folly indefinitely Yabby. Either these companies build cars suitable for use in the modern world thereby becoming viable in their own right, or handover to someone who can or will. Shelling out hard earn't taxpayers money every time they threaten to close their plants only disempowers consumers/wage and salary earners in the long run, and subsides the parent company's bottom line, without any guarantee of continuance anyway. These companies clearly lack innovation as their core problem.

The 200,000 jobs you cite Yabby, extend to the suppliers of Holden and Ford as well, and as Heinz employees and suppliers have found out, the parent company doesn't give a care for their future, by, and at the same time removing their plant and equipment from their premise to prevent any competitor using its former facility to compete with them. Also electing to import paste from some nondescript source country to make their product in NZ instead of fresh NZ produce.

I think NZ should tell them (Heinz) to rack off and make their sauce in the country the paste comes from, thereby fixing the problem once and for all for us, and we can go back to eating sauce made from our own fresh produce. How's that for a solution Yabby ?.

cont...

cont...

The motor industry in principle is exactly the same, except on a larger scale of participation, giving them greater capacity to extract money from the public purse, whilst reducing their dependence on their own innovation and development capacities. Rendered fat, lazy and living off the land, and all the while complaining that their employees are costing too much, and this is the problem.

Simply, subsidising businesses with taxpayers money is a case of workers paying their own wages. Not unlike tax cuts instead of wages rises funded by business, introduced by the Howard Govt, (middle class welfare so called). Disguising the fact that your living standards are actually going down the chute, your cost of living is out of control and your wages are treading water with no prospect of improvement.

Conversely, the big 3 carmakers would have no hesitation in giving Australia the flick, if they thought it were in their best interests Yabby, sacking everyone they employ regardless of how much we are prepared to pay to retain them.

And this is where our freedom has gone. I repeat on subject.

On another front, and in a brilliant example of Gov't colluding with business, Julia Gillard promoted "the concern of Aussie taxpayers", over the whaling thing. Helpfully, she quantifyed the welfare and safety of Australians citizens in dollar value for us.(sic)(vomit)

How far does this have to go before freedom is a distant memory, as it is for another prominent Aussie activist/journalist Julian Assange.

Are we too learn from his experience, that any Australian citizen that whistle blows on our friends in the U.S should be considered insane, a pervert, or worthy of rendition and torture.

Mitt Romney proclaimed Assange "is an enemy of the state and should be killed", and yet the ABC infuriatingly runs incessant coverage of the pre contest Republican Race, as if we should even care.

Maybe we should be more concerned about the waste of taxpayer dollars spent covering this rubbish for Australian viewing. Perhaps we can make it a pulpit issue at next years ALP conference.

Both sides are the same side and this is the core issue effecting freedom in Australia today.
I believe this path can be identified, curtailed and legislated against, for the good of all Australians.

The only party offering any real alternative in terms of policy, is the Greens, and in turn the Independent Members of Parliament. I think they are our last chance at freedom by democracy.

I wonder (for our sake) if anyone else will have figured this out by election day ?.

*I think NZ should tell them (Heinz) to rack off and make their sauce in the country the paste comes from, thereby fixing the problem once and for all for us *

Ah the unions and those wanting jobs, would be screaming blue murder!
Out you would go, at the next elections. Its the economy stupid,
as Clinton wisely noted.

*I don't think we can continue this folly indefinitely Yabby*

Well there is your problem, Thinker 2. The 200'000 people affected
by the MV industry, want their jobs. They are happy to see the Govt
buy them and pay off the companies. 200'000 people spread over a
few seats, that is enough to swing the next election. I remind you
what happened when John Howard got into bed with the timberworkers
in Tassie, Mark Latham ignored his pragmatism. It cost Latham the
election.

Once again, no politicians really gives a hoot about MV manufacturers,
but they sure care about the jobs that they create, for without them
they would not be in Govt. So its really voters acting out of good
old self interest who control all this. If your family depended on
the GM production lines, you might well be singing the praises of
Govt payments to GM, to keep your family fed.

Enlightened self interest swings elections every time and its not
companies who vote, but people.

Actually I don't understand where you get off Yabby.

So your saying it is necessary and incumbent upon taxpayers to prop up anyone's non viable business as a matter of course is it?.

I presume it is also your view, that it is not the Govts role to ensure the wages and working conditions of the very same taxpayers are viable ,nor to protect from exploitation from the very same dishonest and greed driven international corporations lining up with their hand out for taxpayers money.

I acknowledged your question, allow you to exagerate with numbers and you still fail to address any of the issues at all, but instead waffle your bunch of right wing values that you think you have successfully inserted into the thought processes of the masses. Claiming short fixes involving taxpayer handouts in favour of the wealthy are the be all end all solution.

I also asked if we cant just go back to making our own sauce. Are you saying this is not viable ?.

In fact what is your point other than to attempt to stifle this discussion by advocating welfare for the wealthy.

hey...let me have a swig
at the sauce bottle/saucy bottle blonde

[or whatever ol ruddy said]

anyhow tomato sause isnt tomato
that not tomato sause isnt 'made'.in oz..[so what]
if it was made in oz..[with a subsidy]..the mulitnaional..that owns it only takes the proffits offshore

[...likely not paying any tax at all..

like so many selling ore os

the carbon tax thingy...should be put on coal...gas etc

[we must have near 500 exporters
mining the stuff..out of the ground[releasing..methane]
poluting the waters...and airs and soils..in carrying the stuff os..via our free govt subsidised ports

so lets tax them big polution exporters
and stop bribing car manufacturing...over priced cars
heck tax the imports polution tax...the bigger poluters..the higher the tax

the more poluting..
the higher the tax rate

i guess some have too much freedom
and others just get to pay for it..then sometimes sup at the dregs

there are so many issues to the topic
our pensions..invested in worthless yet mandated 'investments'

stop all govt gift giving
no picking winners..its time 200,000
stoped overtaxing the rest of us

*So your saying it is necessary and incumbent upon taxpayers to prop up anyone's non viable business as a matter of course is it?.*

Absolutaly not, Thinker 2. If it was up to me personally, I would
withdraw all subsidies and let them sink or swim. OTOH I also take
the trouble to understand how our political system works and the
factors which drive it. Fact is, pork barrelling works and people
vote for their enlightened self interest. The MV industry is large
enough and affects enough people, to be a seat changer. So pork
barrelling it is, from both sides of politics. Don't blame the companies,
blame the voters. Companies simply crunch the numbers
and without pork barrelling, there is really no good reason why
keeping manufacturing MVs in Aus, makes any sense at all. It would
be far cheaper for them, to shut their operations in Aus down.

*I also asked if we cant just go back to making our own sauce. Are you saying this is not viable ?.*

Well we still do. It is up to consumers, as to which sauce they
buy, Australian or imported. They vote with their wallets every day.

*In fact what is your point other than to attempt to stifle this discussion by advocating welfare for the wealthy.*

I advocate no such thing, Thinker 2. I merely point out that its
votes which drive the system. How politicians decide to buy them,
is up to them really. Plenty of votes are up for sale, to the highest
bidder.

Thanks for responding to my queries Yabby, it seems we are in agreement for a change.

And this can only be discovered through communication when people are actually addressing the issues. I agree, it is votes that drive the issues.

But I cant blame the voters in isolation, because the problem is that the voters are constantly misinformed by vested interests and their cohorts in the media. If they (the voters), had a real set of pro's and con's to weigh up, I believe they would make more informed decisions. Being forewarned is being forearmed. Without the facts without knowledge and the capacity to absorb it (e.g. education) the individual is totally disempowered.

None of us posting on OLO really know WTF is really going on, and with that we can only speculate, theorise, and argue the smaller points. If you really want to modernise your capacity to communicate you need a Twitter account , where discussion has digressed from what you had for breakfast, to combatants dissing each other in clever phrases.

And this is where freedom has gone.

It still appears we don't agree about the role of Gov't ,Yabby.

"I presume it is also your view, that it is "not" the Govts role, to ensure the wages and working conditions of the very same taxpayers are viable, nor to provide protection/regulation preventing exploitation by the very same dishonest and greed driven international corporations lining up with their hand out for taxpayers money.

It appears we agree, that they shouldn't get handouts Yabby, but do you see a role for Gov't in assuring/preserving ethics in the master servant relationship ?. If this is not the role of Govt , what do you believe it to be ?.

I reckon this is also a fair question.

Thinker 2, I don't believe that there is a master servant relationship. Now take the small business owner. What
protection does he/she have? Why should employees be
mollycoddled and favoured over small business operators,
who have far more to lose.

So I think that the Govt should prescribe a minimum wage,
but thats about it. The Govt should also focus on making
it easier for people to gain qualifications in whatever fields
they have aptitude.

All this nonsense about 250% loading on public holidays etc,
will simply see to it that restaurants and others won't
bother opening, so everyone loses. The Govt loses tax
revenue, the employee loses potential work and the business
owner has a business standing empty for another day, undable
to profitably provide a service to customers. I don't favour
lose lose situations by Govt regulation.

Freedom is a loose term to imply as much as possible individuals should not be constrained by the impositions of others, however there is neither absolute freedom in the laissez-faire free market approach nor in a command economy. Nor necessarily in small government (as opposed to smaller). And laws that protect freedoms also protect us from others applying their free will to harm others.

A completely unregulated market is just as despotic and open to facism as an overly-regulated market. To pretend that a free market will work like a natural environment and balance out the inequities is naive. Monopolies are not ecosystems.

All that is happening in these continually repetitive arguments is the level to which governments should go to protect liberty and how these liberties are defined.

Governments and market forces are imperfect protectors of liberty on their own, as is demonstrated by the lack of participation in the democratic process of ordinary folk compared to those who wield influence. Increasing participation in some of these processes would be the obvious approach.

Well summed up Pelican thank you,

cheers T2