Belly, I have enjoyed our 'chat' on this thread, please don't take any of it personal. I think we are both basically the same. We want a fair go for the ordinary bloke. Put it this way you may have mellowed somewhat over time and believe the system is basically ok, so have a work within the system approach to achieve reform, as many Labor and Greens people do, many Greens find my ideas way out at times, certainly many of the young idealists do. Where as I'm more in favour of the radical approach to achieve the same result.
Now for the attack. You say Labor is reforming. Certainly not by the 'evidence' from the recent national conference. The right is firmly in control and no one is going to take away their power. Because of this head in the sand mentality Labor will keep moving to the right and a split could well take place. I say Labor has to reform, bring democracy to the party, give the rank and file a say, clean out the crap within and get back to basic values.

Paul no nothing personal Mate.
I think if you look a my post history you will find I do change my positions.
Mate be aware I do honestly think taking my whip to Labor is needed.
And that of late the rats in the ranks, had been chin deep in NSW.
Robo is a man I trust and like he is on the way to cleaning out that taint.
I will stay Labor/Union take the trashing from my own side.
Because I truly think as I say Labor is the only chance for left of center voters.
We need the Belly's, the maybe one day again the Paul's.
Because we need the promised reforms.
How could my party, formed all those years ago under that tree, by those men, see upwardly mobile self serving slugs.
And union rejects, controlling it.
I know our problems and fight them till death but dreams will not take the place of sweat and hard work.
Paul I live among those who the party never needed more.
But who think still, they are unwanted, it is not true but lets see if change comes my regards.

Belly, I don't want to see OZ become a US style system when the choices are right or far right. All you get is a continuous stream of right wing simplistic clowns running the show Reagan,Bush,Bush and the new guy plus others and those under them are no better. Some say Gillard is better than Abbott, that may be so but only by degree, akin to saying its better to take arsenic than strychnine, the end result is the same your dead. I don't have confidence in people like Gillard, Swan, Rudd. They tinker here and there with the sick old capitalist beast hoping to get it to run smoothly, but unfortunately it just booms then busts lunging from one crises to another. along the way millions of our fellow humans suffer, through no fault of their own. Take the India issue, who really benefits from the whole thing the average Australian, I think not, the average Indian, certainly not. Belly you are smart enough to know who the real beneficiaries are, the big end of town and some in Labor are none to willing to please. On the scale of things the Indian issue is not a big deal, but it did show how divided Labor is.

Maybe Paul I am not smart.
If I was I could have pretended my last boss was other than what he is.
Left my courage and concerns for members locked away and still been a middle income earner.
I could stop putting the movements I love, ALP UNION first here, and pretend everything is ok mate.
You will see nothing of your teams wrongs from you.
No conservative asking why Peter Reith left Parliament under a cloud.
Why Abbott promised to vote for him then betrayed him.
No one will talk of an ex National party leader Deputy Prime Minister and ask of his reason to leave Parliament.
It seems only the ALP has skeletons in its cupboards.
Or is it we are being lied to.
Is it con men who thrive on telling us only one side.
Are my warnings to LABOR, my reminding them, it is was them driving such as you to a mud hole of lost hopes a sin? or haveing the heart to say party first, second, last, .
Mate, I lived within the movement, my thoughts if agreed with bought praise, if not I was called a fool.
But in the long run, almost every thing I said would take place did my detractors rushed back with questions.
This is our future, Labor will rebuild, is doing it, Liberals will win, but be one term,so bad are its NO policy's
Greens? sorry bloke dream your dreams, harvest the falling ALP leaves the truly lost left and the quite mad.
But know, it is true,unavoidably so, Australians in numbers you can never over come see your dreams as their nigh mares.

Posters with a true interest in politics can do far worse than go to ABC.
Find Fridays NSW 7.30 report.
A man probably dieing from my party's left.
A true party hero,has much to say in a story named some thing like *who killed my party*
I am so very proud, to be in the company of such a man.
His words are mine, have been seen here in print for 4 years.
NSW is a blot/insult/to me my party and its voting supporters.
OH we are not alone, History reminds us of two Conservative Knights.
But my party took its caning.
It must not ever forget.
Sussex Street, the suits the morally bankrupts.
My party is not yours.
I will never forget never forgive, but unlike you,I value the party too much to turn dog.
If the reforms do not return my party to its membership, shout from every roof top, 60 50 or even 25% in Union hands even the idiot left, who taint the party with grubs in seats more informed should have.
We die.
No not the greens,in fact we will change ,but if not,
NEW LABOR will come.

Belly, Like the chosen people you are waiting for the 'Labor Messiah' to arrive. The 'Green Messiah' is at hand but unfortunately you don't like the message he brings. The right wing Pharisees of Old Labor want to crucify the new 'Green Messiah' the message of 'love thy neighbor' is just to unpalatable for them.
We can only stand by and watch 'Old Labor' crash and burn. Unfortunately no new labor phoenix will ever rise from the ashes.
The good Green policy is there for all to see, unlike the 2 conservative parties who have no real policies at all. I hark back to Gillard and her push to sell uranium to India. Do you think Julia woke up one morning and said to herself, "It would be wonderful for Australia if we sell uranium to India." Or was Gillard pressured by her masters, the faceless men from the big end of town, to change. Like the Liberal Party the ALP is under the thumb of Capital. If Julia keeps pushing Labor to the right then it is in danger of completely disappearing up the conservatives, you know what.