I had a good belly laugh when I read this.

Anyone that believes Rudd is sincere still believes in Santa Claus

http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-fires-a-few-shots-at-labor-spin-20111126-1o0hp.html#ixzz1epw0pRvD

I recall things like 'The recent heatwave in Adelaide is an example of Climate change' Before setting off to Copenhagen with his 100 entounarge. 'The greatest moral challenge of our time' before droping his ETS. He was also going to 'stop the boats' as we saw with the Oceanic Viking. There was also a promise to give every school kid a computer, that never came about.

Not only was Richo right when he said 'whatever it takes' but they will say 'whatever sounds good at the time'

Rudd has more spin than Shane Warne and Gillard has learnt the trade well.

Reading things that are-not there. leave that for SM. it's hard to know what you are saying. It's bad luck that you lost a vote, but it will pass, in time. In the meantime try not to read news papers.

Banjo I'm trying to work out if that's pure spin on Rudd's part or he is testing the waters with some irony.

The master of spin, the man you reportedly threw a major hissey fit because he didn't get the breakfast he wanted.

A classic.

R0bert

Dear RObert and Banjo,

That's nothing compared to the hissy fit that's coming
from Mr Abbott when he's replaced as leader prior to
the next election. Or the one he's thrown recently
in Parliament in full view of everyone when he lost
his "slipper." The carry on was Classic - bearing
all the earmarks of the "Noalition" that he currently
leads. It's time for a change. Time to get rid of the
"cringe factor," and try to put the party back on track.
Malcolm's waiting in the wings.

It was all over the radio today. Crazy stuff, these fools have created a whole new system of government: Australians now live in an Ineptocracy. Great aint it?

cont'd ...

BTW - I've listened to Rudd on the media today
and I fully agree with him that the Labor Party
is the Party of the people that support the Labor
Party. It is not the Party of the factions that
dictate to the Labor Government of the day.
People I've spoken to are disenchanted with the
factions and support Kevin Rudd's take on the Labor
Party. I don't think that Kevin Rudd would be
interested in the PM's position as long as the factions
dominate. And I don't think that the factions that
deposed him would want him back either. Unless they
can dictate the terms of Government.

That is unfortunate as the majority of Labor
supporters don't support the functions of the factions.
We are yet to see what happens at the next election.

Lexi,
Your last line is good, about supporting the factions.

Rudd said today that he wants to be rid of the factions and install integrity. He used the factions to become PM and when there he ran a one man band virtually and now he wants more input from party members.

He has more spin than a clothes dryer and Gillard has learnt from him.

How can you believe anything he says.

Did you hear what Richo said on news tonight, and he is Labor!

Hope you noticed the story came from the Age, not a Murdock paper.

If I had to choose between the Sauce Bottle, Mr RAbbott, and Rudd. I'll be going with Rudd.

I rather like Banjo, we seem to share a childhood on struggle street.
And some views and opinions than bring us enemy's and the tag racist.
But let us look, with eyes open, at his thoughts here,I expect raw mustard to show contempt, others to.
But my pain killer here is not aspro, it is the firm understanding, they know no better.
Two party preferred, at its lowest ever polls 45% of Australians support Labor.
Rudd is quite right, Bazz and others will in time, and have, used the same words to describe my party.
I love the ALP but fear,without the changes recommended it with be a third or even fourth party.
FACTIONS seem to exist to push certain issues, but in truth my loved forever Union movement, is a faction ,in fact about three.
It sees the center unity [right] control conferences state and federal.
I a lover of both, have been to such conferences, once 60% of those there came from the union,by party law.
Some ,falling over them selves drunk, came only to vote, unaware of what they voted for,some would not know the party's leaders.
Numbers not principles food for factions
Now? half? yes one in two! are union members , in a world my loved movement is representing less than 1 in 5 workers
Union power puts good people with ability into Parliament, they do but fools too,as a reward! or to dump them! for being no good! like that awful left leading fool!
continued.

All party's have factions so too has clubs sporting and such.
Hard to break the grip of a faction, harder to remember group club first not the head of a faction.
ALP factions gave birth to the greens
Bob Hawk, proved the ALP Conservation credentials by saving the Franklin.
Bob Brown became leader, and bit the hand than helped him do so.
I have seen unions bring rank and file members to weekend conferences, to vote.
I have seen that person vote union official on each side watching to see he votes as told.
I have sat with left learning officials, and seen orders given to them,when to lift their arm and vote.
Factions exist for self interest of clan like faction heads not members.
My ALP is better served by giving more say to members less to union heads,it is they spending the currency of members numbers,those members have little say.
My Union movement gave birth to a child the ALP that long ago left home, returning for us to do the washing but we do not need to live together as many members are unhappy as happy with our use of power they gave us.
Rudd is right,factions hid his anger, it may have been fixed, factions keep Gillard in a job few want her to have.
45% of Australians two party preferred do not share the view Labor is trash, are not unaware of past *faceless men*
A slur used even today to try to drag the horrible 1970,s back to these days when indeed they pulled the strings.
I tender this Banjo,I truly think/KNOW history will be unkind to these days.
A BLIND near hate, willingness to avoid truth, devision creating leader and only a few, a faction, has dirtied the name of Liberalism.
Let Labor/ Union rank and file be heard., or let it die.

The once mighty Labor Party is in decline. No wonder, the party lost its direction some time ago. No longer a party of radicalism, not even a party of reform couldn't even call it a party of change, What or who does the Australian Labor Party represent? I don't know. Sometime ago Labor in its quest for popularity took a huge shift to the right, disenfranchising its grass roots support, it gained some new fair weather friends and short term power, its new friends soon lost interest when the Conservatives took and even bigger shift to the right and quickly jumped onto their bandwagon. Now Labor increasingly finds itself out in the cold. No matter what spin you put on it the very best Labor can ever hope for at the polls is maybe 1 in 3 votes. To gain office in the future Labor is going to have to rely more and more on the party of the left The Greens. A minority within The Greens, such as myself, argue that we should not give support to the ALP, let them fail. Following a period of instability, the conservatives, the do nothing parties, would soon fail the people as well, as demonstrated by what is happening in other parts of the developed World, the World can no longer afford the luxury of do nothing. The Greens would be stronger for it and be seen as the real alternative to the failed old brigade.

There's a lot of jovial bloggers around at the moment. Now that toni has failed in his only parliamentary job, to remove the labor party, he will now have to turn his attention to talking economics. With the coalition and pledges written in blood, it should be an interesting run up to the next election.

Haven't time to look at all post properly now but will do later.

In meantime heres another article about same thing.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/rudd-stretches-credibility-with-his-call-for-party-reform-20111127-1o1ia.html

The point is, does anyone believe Rudd is sincere, his record shows he is loose with the truth. If I know of his spin, how do labor party insiders see it. Seems a bit of openness and straight talking would not go astray in this party. They do it to themselves, Abbott has not got to do anything!

Lexi 579 know this.
We should rejoice at the posts from the Noalition supporters.
Each is full to the very brim,with evidence they have been fooled.
Adopted Abbott's NO and sucked up his deceitful slanders.
He is history, his slanders miss truths and NO is already too written in history's hall of infamy.
Look to, true look, at the quality of the mud being hurled about, it is fantasy.
The whole thought, Idea that Labor is not in need of reform? madness.
Now my Friend, Labor Marched away from old Labor, yes it did, I thank it for that.
The 1950, 1960,s a time of living hell!
Knowing my party followed your intended path, policy's that shouted we are Labor as it was born.
Screamed our policy's are better.
And cried the day after the election after the public reminded us they had other ideas 3 more years anchored to opposition, and selling fruit not enough wanted to buy.
Greens? Lexi will be hurt, you will too, but greens are Labor, and the left of centers TROJAN HORSE.
Do not blind your self, truth is world wide both Conservatives and Labor party's must take them on.
First out green the greens take conservation back from these radicals.
Watch, do not be my ALP after its post war loss, blinded by a self contented feeling voters would clutch what they did not want to their Brest's.
But they will, without even knowing it, smash the left of center, to small never to rule groups.
See yesterdays NZ results
continued

Yes Kevin Rudd is trying to get the numbers to return.
I hope he gets them.
He may well have pain behind his remarks,but he sure does have truth.
Look at the idea behind this thread, the detractors of the NO team.
A bit like Peter Slipper, he was ok nothing said about him.
Then he became over night all things, really?
We see Labor slandered hourly, but talk of a much needed reform brings this reaction?
Uninformed junk!
Yes Labor must reform.
I am a refugee from my branch, but current rules stop me going to one that is brilliant, and led by young true caring.
My branch is victim, its head well respected , women especially.
old women,in the 70th nor more year of their life.
Who vote as he asks.
Put me a case together, prove to me Labor Liberal Country Nats if you must, a faction of Liberalism.
Tell me why reform change improvement is not needed.
Show me
Please, why Rudd's comment is other than true.
Banjo think for your self if Abbott gets hic cups it comes out NO NO NO

The quality of mud, is unmistakeable. Labor are making reforms to keep kids at school past year ten, toni says he is not sure about the method, it's got to be the right kids.[ Probably private school kids.]

Dear Belly,

It seems to me that the Coalition and their supporters
are slowly running out of steam - as the public gets tired
of the same old lines. There are definite
signs of extreme frustration beginning to appear -
on their part of not being
able to achieve their aims - of putting Mr Abbott in the
PM's Lodge.

The public are becoming dis-enchanted with Mr Abbott's antics.
And Mr Abbott is slowly running out of issues to condemn.

BTW what Mr Rudd stated in the
media - regarding reforming the Labor Party - made perfect
logical sense. For many years we've heard
that the party needs major reform if it is to succeed in
the future development of this nation. As for the old
war horse - Richardson -
and his views - well he gets paid a great deal and has to
support his newspaper's editorial policies. He obviously
needs the money.

Toni has failed to dislodge labor in his only role as a political leader. He will now have to fall on his sword, if he actually has one.

Lexi 579, some of our detractors know little about politics.
Some would, hard as it is to understand, not know Gillard is preferred Prime Minister by 5 percentage points.
We of the left of center should not however over look the party's polling.
Abbott, now more than ever in his long and colorful career, has more enemy's in his own camp than Friends.
He will go.
But that alone destroys Labors chances, unless Gillard gos too.
We have to face it, she has lost too many forever, men mostly to ever come back.
A weak Labor at the next election helps the greens, and ensures Liberals win a landslide.
Many crafted over stated weapons have been used against Labor.
But two things threaten our return to government, Rudd's knifing.
And Abbott's shrewed but shrew like manipulating the refugee problem.
A third, considered thought please my green Friends, not the usual back turning breath holding foot stamping stuff.
Labor is considered to be too close to the greens.
We must confront this, greens are a coalition of former Labor extreme left.
Extreme Socialist party's.
And as a street light catches moths seeking the moon, young caring folk.
Who do not yet know they in fact will keep Conservatives in power by fracturing Labors vote.
It is painful but true, forever for every voter the greens can be assured 3 dislike them forever.

What the pro Labor posters here must accept is that these stories all come from pro Labor papers, and the ABC news if you care to look.

This is not something dreamt up by the opposition to throw mud. Rudd said all this himself at a book launch. Although Labor may well be in need of reform, what is uncredulous is who the suggestions come from. It is laughable to come from Rudd, who has a history of spin and using the factions. I don't think anyone could honestly believe that Rudd has suddenly 'seen the light' and wants to go further than what John Faulkner recomends. Have a look at his record and why he lost the public support.

I also think Labor is in need of reform as they have spent so much effort in putting up and taking advice from academics and lawyers and electing show ponies like McKew and Garrett. There is a need to get grass roots participation. A bit of common sense instead of grand ideas.

There has been a lot of good labor men in the past, but this Government, first under Rudd and then Gillard, is the worst we have ever been saddled with. They have put spin on everything mainly to try and hide their ineptitude. Even today there is reports of the NBN blowing out to $50 Billion and the take up by the public is minor.
In the next 18 months I see the list of stuff ups growing and still no resolution of the border security issue. Is there any one thing that has been managed well?

I agree that if the Libs had a more charismatic leader we would not now be putting up with Gillard, but be that as it is, the Libs don,t have to change to win the next election

Dear Banjo,

Politics is a controversial subject and I guess it's
one that will be viewed according to one's beliefs,
expectations, and experiences. To me policies that make
sense for me and my family is what tends to influence
my vote and for that reason alone I could not support
Mr Abbott and his colleagues. To me they have been
bought and paid for by vested interests. It's all very
well to tell people how much they're able to save when
they're in office - but in order to do that - the cuts
that they make are usually horrendous and it takes years
to repair the damage that they've done. Anyway -
much as I understand your point of view - I happen to
disagree with it.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for sharing your views.
You, as always have given me much to think about.

Banjo, no offense,but clearly I am in debate with someone who is not as well informed as he thinks.
I recommend a story in this mornings Sydney morning Herald.
It is about an on going fight between two branches and two factions of the Liberal party.
Hard right vs center unity, right.
Such a battle has been taking place within that party National, for decades.
The branch stacking described is as in of both party's.
Banjo,in your willingness to flog the ALP on any issue, any time.
You launched this thread.
Your terms of addressing Labor supporters are extreme, but BLIND TOO.
Consider flogging us with real issues, not miss interpretation of a much needed reform , for my party and yours.
Lexi, thanks, no joy for me here, remember I said if you fall in the street it will be a Christian who picks you up.
Well in fact many,at least half, Greens members are from our best.
We think in terms of unwashed, they exist, but are few and they are leaches.
Why chaining your self to a coal loader is not terrorism concerns me.
Foolish fun? dragging the whole down more like it.
But one in two is a Labor refugee,and most of those left truly, but wrongly, think Australia will change its mind about them.
Labor must reform,get out there and let its supporters have say.
Factions serve only to weaken us.
Unions? my life's love,have no reason to exist other than fairness, some are using the power of members to stop true reform.

Dear Belly,

Every word you say I value greatly.
We are in critical times and Australia requires a
reassessment of the relationship between labour
and capital, a reassessment which takes into account
the politics of industrial democracy, profit, and
job sharing as well as long term planning which allows
for the proper protection and preservation of our
environment. What we don't need is the "kick-the-worker-
today-and-take-the-money-tomorrow" attitude that comes
from the Col War Warriors who are currently at work
around the place. The only way in which the country
can work properly is for management and labour to
co-operate with one another - not condemn one another.

I'm a member of a union, but I've never been put in a
position where I've had to go out on strike. And although
I'm been sometimes frustrated when the union does its
job badly - I support without reservation the right of all
working people to join together so as to preserve and protect
their livelihoods. Of course unions need to be more
sensitive to the realities of modern economic conditions.
Sectarian attitudes and greed serve the cause of labout
badly. Anyway, Thanks for being so honest and open and sharing
your views on this forum. They are appreciated.

Belly,
Again I must inform you that I do not have a party, but recognise that you are particularly sensitive to any critisism of the ALP or any member there of. Now I cannot see any story, you suggested I look at in the SMH. A link may help. I do recall problems in the libs about the time of the Brogden affair. So a inter party stoush would be interesting.

I stated ages ago that, because the present government is the worst we have ever had, I will do all I can to bring about a change and highlighting Rudds hypocricy is an opportunity not to be missed. My list of Labor stuff up continues to grow and will be circulated prior to the next election, just to remind voters.

The present Labor incumbents do not appear to hold the interests of Australia or its citizens in any maner, shape or form. Like NZ, a good clearing of the decks may bring some new blood later.

But for now the hypocricy of Rudd, in advocating reform, is laughable. I notice no one has claimed he is not being hypocritical.

True to form, 'Say whatever sounds good at the time'.

Rud. is allowed his opinion like any body else. I did not see any-thing to sensationalize about. I think you see things that were not said, it grows in the mind like a cancer. Rud is not leader, we have a very progressive PM, and she will be there as long as she wants.

Dear Banjo,

I guess that people tend to see politicians from their
own political perspective. Their pollies are heroes
while the others are villains. If only that were true.
The reality is that I firmly believe that most politicians
go into Parliament to make changes. Most are not seat-warmers,
hacks, careerists or adventurers. Some simply get inhibited
by their party machines and are forced to go with the flow so
to speak. Anyway, the voters usually do get it right in the
end. It will be interesting to see how events roll out
prior to and during - the next election. And who's right
and who's wrong. Who wins and who loses.

Thats it Lexi, The incumbent opposition followers are relentless in their propaganda campaign, which started in 2010.
Not any suggestions or ideas just crap.

Banjo, still one day have that beer with you, maybe sit by a creek and catch a few fish or yabbys.
But mate, you are just as wrong here in this thread as the time you claimed I lied about living on the mid north coast, trust me it is true.
Tell you why soon,Lexi, my time as union delegate and official, hurt at times.
Seeing officials who in fact leeched on the members.
Being told second hand my determination to help those in trouble was over servicing.
But a good union official, I could not name one who is not in my former job,even the rude walking misplaced ego I left over.
Some never know,the reward of a good union official is to be trusted by those he serves.
Banjo,now mate no contributor ever takes the whip to his own team as often as I do.
Your whole concept here in this thread is blindness,,, think with me,first you blame Labor,, , then you decry an honestly held view they must reform.
Consider this, my comments right or wrong, and they are often both, are views I have looked at formed an opinion and given it.
How do you wish me to take your views?
Can you read your post again, still believe it? if so we are wasting our time talking.
Doctor NO would agree with Rudd Labor must reform.

"We must confront this, greens are a coalition of former Labor extreme left. Extreme Socialist party's."

The problem with Labor is they run around blaming everyone else for the parties failures. After Whitlam the right took firm control of the party. They had there time in the sun under H and K, made a big shift to the right, that's now ancient history. Nowadays Labor is struggling with an identity problem. They are finding their fair weather friends (so called swing voters) are deserting in droves and they have no one to bail them out, to bad so sad. As I said on another post I would like to see The Greens withdraw support for Labor, force them to the polls, let Abbott and his do nothing mob take over. Capital is about to fail in Europe and the US, unfortunately it will spread to Australia, no magic bullet this time. Sorry for the doom and gloom but can't see anything else. From the rubble lets hope real leadership comes to the fore and brings real change for Australia and the rest of the World.

Paul I take your anger on board.
But wish to point out making silly statements inferring the greens are growing, not going.
Holding Labor at gun point for traveling with the voters.
Being wrong, is not a point of Merritt.
Are you an ex member of the Socialist alliance?
Sit quietly, in a corner read the greens policy's.
Tell me, do you truly think, at all?
Australia will buy that?

Belly,
You are reading more into my posts than I have written.

Firstly, I agree that Labor needs to reform and I gave my reasons for having that opinion. Certainly views of an outsider and you can assess them as you like. I forgot to mention the situation in the seat of Cunningham a few years ago, when sussex St. imposed their man on the electorate and virtually the whole electorate rebelled and elected a green candidate. Now you would think that the hierarcy would learn from that.

As I said before, the laughable thing here is that Rudd is making the suggestions of reform. Just seeking publicity for himself for whatever reason. When looking at his record, no one could possibly believe he holds those views honestly. He is a spin king.

But then, his hypocricy is such, he may believe what he says at any given time

Dear Paul,

Here's something that may be of some interest to
you:

It's taken from Ben Eltham's article in New Matilda,
29/11/2011.

And I quote:

"History will view this government's management and
reforms positively unfortunately the conventional
wisdom is now firmly entrenched in the popular
imagination that the government has not managed the
economy well. Facts be damned.

If Australia was closer to Europe and people could
see for themselves how folks are doing in the rest
of the developed world, Swan and Co would be heroes.
But here we sit in our isolation allowing Mr Abbott
and his media megaphone mates to weave a fantasy in
which Australia Pty Ltd is on the verge of collapse.

Let's step back for a moment and have an unbiased
look at the latest Treasury figures on the health of
the Australian economy.

Unemployment is expected to peak at 5.5 per cent next
year, and remain at the level into 2013. Inflation will
be 3.25 per cent. Wages will grow at 4 percent. Consumer
spending will grow at 3 per cent, and the economy as a whole
at 3.25 per cent.

These are figures that would make finance ministers in
Europe weep. The Australian economy is growing. We're
adding jobs and keeping unemployment low, consumers are still
spending and inflation is modest. And yes, the budget will
return to surplus.

They're not quite " a beautiful set of numbers" in and of
themselves - they show however that Australian growth will
be moderate, rather than booming - but in comparison to
our northern hemisphere trading partners - they're almost
utopian. Take a look at the UK's latest economic data - it's
a tale of misery. Growth is a sickly 0.5 per cent and
falling. Unemployment is at 8.3 per cent and growing.
Inflation is at 5 per cent and Britain like the Euro area,
Japan, and the US, remains in a sea of strife. Australia
will be one of the only countries in the OECD to enjoy a
balanced budget in the near future."

Belly
"Paul I take your anger on board." Belly no anger.
"But wish to point out making silly statements inferring the greens are growing, not going." Is that a Christmas wish of yours.
"Holding Labor at gun point for traveling with the voters." Is that why Labor enjoys 30% support.
"Being wrong, is not a point of Merritt." ?
"Are you an ex member of the Socialist alliance?" No
"Sit quietly, in a corner read the greens policy's." read yes, sit quietly no.
"Tell me, do you truly think, at all?" Yes, unlike rusted on Labor voters, who vote the ALP ticket regardless. Joe Starlin could be the candidate and they would vote labor. Anyone who voted Labor in the last NSW State election, say's it all.
"Australia will buy that?" What's unpalatable today, may be desirable tomorrow.
What a site it was watching the conga line of sycophantic ALP members behind Julie when Obama was out here giving Labor their riding instructions. I expected that from the other mob, but Labor, shame

It seems that these kind of comments are still in
style for some people and of course
unsurprisingly conservatinve
commentators have been frothing at the mouth over any
apparent success that the current government achieves - be
it with the passing of legislature or the visit of the
American President. That's par for the course.
Nice try though.

Installing slipper, was a nightmare for them, Toni is today at a dry cleaners, sprucing about the pending carbon tax. More scare tactics ,even though no legislation is enacted. He must reckon people don't read papers or watch news. I do not know what he gets paid for. He is yet to say anything, or do anything.

It may appear to some I think I have all the answers.
Let me tell you I do not and I know it.
Paul we have both talked well and clashed.
So be it, both of us should not resort to hiding our views to get on with one another.
I had no intention of my words being seen as do you think at all.
I wanted to say do you at all, think the greens are growing not going.
Throwing Labors primary vote in my face, is joyful for you.
But it overlooks the two party preferred position 45%
Now the knifing of Rudd, even the need for it, has hurt Labor.
Gillard has too, but surely you are aware? Labors greatest pain, reason for lost votes is it is seen to be too close to the greens.
I as you know got little formal education.
But take pride in my addiction, to learning, falling on my face, getting it wrong but never saying other than what I think.
I think future, not this mob, green/conservation party, maybe this one under better leadership, has a roll to play.
Putting a Ministry of silly policy's unloved knee jerk ones, together is pure madness.
Hostility is ok with me but it will not make the greens mainstream.
Workers , true mates, took to me during the last NSW election.
For a time I pushed the idea of voting green rather than Labor, they construction forestry parks hate the greens.
They like me voted conservative, your charge is wrong and a reaction to not getting your own way.

There is little difference between the the major parties. Swan and Rudd would sit well in the Liberal Party just as Hockey and Turnbull could find a home in the Labor Party.

Paul, with respect.
In politics, as in life,there are no absolutes.
At best we, all of us get results that are as close as possible to those most want.
I like your last post.
It reminds me,enforces my view, the Greens in part,are a party off Dennial..
Attempts to use this truth, as a positive for them self, yet clearly it highlights their self deception.
Again and again, people attempt to insult me and the ALP, by using this line, not seeing it proves not your point but mine.
My last day at School was in that small hamlet at not quite 13 years of age.
I and my ALP have grown came far from the Comrade days.
Left lunatic ideas of keeping America away.
So many silly ideas.
You conveniently, but unknowingly too, over look is never was Liberals, not Labor, but the voters who drove both party's as a sheep dog drives sheep, away from those dark days.
Yes dark, white Australia, so many things.
No absolutes, no but the greens need a plan rattling around in the rubbish bin for policy's left over from the Liberal or Labor party of those days.
Filling the policy bag with the ashes of voter rejected policy's.
I am amused by your faith in failure.
By your ability to not see/understand both party's sell a product voters want, yours clearly does not.

Belly,
You think I only critisize Labor? Well heres one for you.

Some marks to Swan for making a cut to the baby bonus. I only wish he eliminated it completely.

This has to be the most stupid idea that the Libs ever implemented and it was Costello that was totally responsible. The most stupid, short sighted, brain explosion imaginable, just to garner a few votes at the time.

All it has done is encourage young single mothers to have babies and increase their dependance on our welfare system. There is more than enough people in the world now so why encourage more to breed?

But I doubt either major party will have the guts to slash it completely. It is in need of bipartisan agreement to abolish.

Belly, there is no personal insult intended. You yourself posted somewhere that at the last NSW State election you deserted the Labor Party to vote for the Liberals, I see that as an insult to Labor. I was a long time member of the ALP, now I'm with The Greens. I don't want to be seen as a name dropper, other than to say I personally know many people in the ALP from grass roots members to members of Government at all levels. for the vast majority of these people I have the up most respect, as I do for many I know within the Liberal Party, good hard working people. On many issues, not all, we don't see eye to eye, our overall philosophy is different, but that does not detract from the respect I have for them.
Members of The Greens are ordinary people, workers, students, mums and dads, retirees, a more diverse group you will not find, I would say the thing they all have in common is a strong sense of social justice. Our members of Parliament, local, state and federal are very committed hard working people, as are many in the Labor and Liberal parties.

Paul I have been an active trade unionist and ALP member most of my life.
From time to time I let a name out but not name dropping.
I now am an ex nothing more x than an ex.
But activist still.
I never met a person who I can not get on with.
You may well know more than me.
But this I know, with certainty.
Australians are never going to be Socialists.
Years of tramping in and out of work shops, factory's, construction sites I know workers, and am proud they knew and continue to know me.
AT BEST, no more, than 15% WILL EVER VOTE GREEN.
Right now Branches of all other party's,rank and file members, are insisting at the next federal election preferences not be directed to the greens.
You look for policy's mainstream are repelled by.
Request my party climb a cliff and jump off to return to past failures.
You dream your pleasant dreams, unaware for most it is no dream but a nightmare.
NO ABSOLUTES but you in fact, you do, you know, tell 88% of AUSTRALIANS, we are wrong you are right.
Your efforts at best, keep the next coalition in power and Labor out.
Greens in fact are a virus infecting the left of center dreaming of the impossible and holding its breath stamping its feet because truth insists on being heard
my regards
come home to labor or not but my truth can not be trashed facts support it.

"Right now Branches of all other party's,rank and file members, are insisting at the next federal election preferences not be directed to the greens."
Belly from that statement I can only conclude the Labor Party has some kind of a death wish? You say all parties, besides the ALP which other parties? Liberal/National, Fred Nile how about Pauline Hanson LOL. We have a deal at the moment, we won't help block supply and we won't support a no confidence motion. Without ALP support we would loose our only lower house rep, true. Without Green preferences how many marginals will Labor loose, me thinks more than one. Without Green preferences the ALP would be, to put it mildly, dead ducks.

Paul I am not your enemy, he can be found in your self.
Only a few years ago you would have found me handing out your how to votes.
I do not craft my views to insult or hurt, am in no way angry with you.
I am angry with your party, and myself.
I was blind sided, many of us.
I thought once as the greens forced my party and others to get back to conservation, the fleas infesting them are not a problem.
Well no, the exuberance of getting those Senate seats,midst a very real disenchantment with the two others.
Failure to understand it was a peak not a trend.
Marickville council and its trade war on Israel.
The refusal to let Rudd's carbon tax pass.
Bob Browns increasing nose in the air dictating to 88% of us.
Paul! I speak the truth, of those 88% 44% at least, share my dislike of your party, are you aware,can truth see the light?
In all probability it is 80% who think that way.
You just can not plant spuds and expect to harvest pumpkins.

Belly, you like to quote unsubstantiated figures to support you argument against The Greens 88% of this and 44% of that and 80% etc. This figures only exist within you, they are meaningless. To me you appear to strongly believe in maintaining the status quo what is now will be forever. If that was the case we would still have the White Australia Policy, still be at war with Vietnam, and still hate Red China. What is popular culture today may not be so tomorrow, likewise what is distasteful today may well be delightful tomorrow. You call Green polices extreme, but that just depends where you sit. An example of what I perceive as extreme is Australia's foreign policy in relation to Iraq and Afghanistan. There is little evidence of World support for the US backed action in these countries, but Australia is certainly in the extreme minority here. On a more personal level during the last NSW State election, I had a long conversation with a Labor hack at a pre-poll booth about 'boat people', not much else to do at pre-poll, this bloke was on the ALP ticket for the LC, fortunately in an un-winnable position, his fervent belief was "The navy should be given orders to blow those boat people out of the water." men, women and children, that to me is extreme (as were most of his views on everything) but fortunately that's not ALP policy, yet. You raised that dirty word SOCIALISM, all I can say if you are a Labor Party member please read your parties manifesto, Labor is committed to, wait for it, SOCIALISM its there in black and white. If you are a Labor Party member you embrace dirty rotten SOCIALISM. No one thinks Labor has an identity problem/ For The greens our policies are there in black and white for everyone to read, we are a committed party, our policies are not popular with all voters, so what. Labor/Liberal formulate policy on the run,

Paul What is the matter with socialism, do not you ever socialize. We are not all hermits. What is the opposite of socialism, would that be liberalism. The world has been to liberal and see what happened. You are implying there is something wrong with the word, Is it a word that is hiding and waiting to come out. ALP have been around for a long time and they are not about to change wording to suite you.

Paul with respect? are you a very young fella or a very old one.
It would be, I think, common knowledge Labor left much of its written platform behind, MATE you challenged me in this thread for doing it Socialism being one we are no socialist party.

And word games may make you feel warm and cuddly but here is a maths problem, gee my last teacher Lofty Mc Bride would fall out of his wheelchair me? maths?
12% vote greens, polls are near constant.
88% do not ok so far?
Of the 12% some half? come back to Labor first preference.
579 Socialism is not a want for the ALP.
A considered, open researched look at our country and its system as supported by the two sides, shows both support socialist things, in part we are socialist.
BUT both sides are,with public support tightening this up in welfare for a start.
I bet, every thing I own, to a bag of snails, my judgment of the greens will be proved to have been too kind to them within ten years.

Belly,
You are right about the Greens, they have got where they are on Labor preferences.

Let us see how they perform with both majors putting them last on HTVs.

Be good to see a critical analysis of their policies, which have now been reworded to mean whatever you like, just abstract rubbish, nothing concrete.

Banjo What is the greens policy, Bob seems to have a wish list, i have never heard of any concrete policy. Can you help us out.

579,
You had better google the greens for your self.

I had their policies all itemized a few years ago. Now they have changed them into abstract terms that can mean anything.

e.g. They have gone from advocating lowering the age of concent and legalising all drugs, to giving young people more right to make the decissions affecting them.

Best everyone reach their own conclusions. Even better judge them on their actions, both in and outside parliament.

Banjo we very much agree here.
I think many who are upset with me need to know why I think as I do.
Yes that hungry childhood, it stifled my siblings life, no fun being the poorest of the poor.
And no fun the children of a railway fettler who had to move from tiny town to town often.
We early knew, not thought, the 23 years in opposition had to end.
It did, by then we had begun work, no longer hungry.
Only for the changes we had begged for,
The big fella, we had thought of him for so very long as our saint, our man our future.
He had to fight the truly it existed then, faceless men.
Few knew,fewer wish to admit, Charlie Oliver,strong man ,head of the AWU in a building now derelict or maybe gone.
Gave GW, sorry about the spelling, permission! the right, to lead the ALP.
its time! we won! the big fella and one other ran the government for months.
Then the bottom fell out!
He put a cabinet in place including refugees from a insane asylum!
We got great changes mixed with headlines like todays.
Unfair, unbalanced, and some times well earned, sex betrayal, even a fool who while borrowing to buy us back, tried doing it from a con man.
So Labor fell, I thought it would take a lifetime 23 more years to repair us.
But we changed! we do still,and we suffer the defections of members who seem allergic to governing.
A dream fantasy world off never to be achieved not even understood or wanted wishes, it currently is called the greens
continued

579,
My reference to "dirty rotten SOCIALISM". Being just a wee bit sarcastic there towards Belly. I am socialistic by nature. Belly made a disparaging remark about socialism and The Greens so I was merely pointing out that the word (Labor hates) SOCIALISM is contained in their party manifesto. The hypocrisy of Labor, the belief in socialism is supposedly a cornerstone of the party, but just don't mention the word or worse still say you are a socialist and a ALP member. Something akin to "I'm a devout Catholic but I just don't believe in God."
Try a 'Google' greens.org.au/policy 43 areas of policy listed there to read, can do likewise at a state level. Just don't try the same thing for the Labor or Liberal parties you will draw a blank.
Belly I'm about your age. IAN MACDONALD is vitally interested in Labor Party policy as it relates to PRISON, can you fill him in or should he ask PALUZZANO or ORKOPOULOS they can give him the inside view, Labor don't have to rely on the support of independents in the prison parliament here in NSW they are firmly in the majority. LOL.
Thanks Belly it's good to know we have 10 years left, where did you get your crystal ball, your predictions are uncanny. I'm in the majority because I know 150% of people agree with me. LOL

Sure even if buried deep within us we know humanity loves to dream of a better world.
That wish lives within every party or group.
Labor has it dreamers both good and bad, achievable and never so.
Few want to know but truth will out ,without the support of Robert Lee Hawk, his saving the franklin, the Greens would never have risen, Bob Brown too.
Labor dreamers,Left manipulators, true dreamers, high minded folk, dreamed of better.
It matters not to them they search the reject box of other party's for treasures.
Or that the gems they hold dear are not ever going to be wanted by most.
It is enough to dream, even hide those dreams,not let the a fact they are unwanted be seen.
Banjo has it right, more than any party this is a coalition of very different, each pushing or pulling in other directions.
If SHY or Lee Rianon, came from the party that best suits the policy's they hold, Socialist Alliance, they would find a support level of less than two percent,they hidden a party of both extremes and well meaning , but a lost party that understands this.
IT IS BEST FOR THEM that their policy's are not well understood.
And that,even if it keeps Conservatives in power they want to be in control 12% of voters demand to rule.
I will rest only after both party's publicly combine to return government to the majority,

Lee Rhiannon, the lady the conservatives among us love to hate. What an outstanding individual our Lee is, forthright, committed and true to her word. Maybe when the day comes and Bob steps down Lee might assume the party leadership, though they are big shoes to fill. Besides that Lee is great company for dinner.
Belly good to know Bob (shout me another beer Singo) Hawke was the savior of The Greens, we are forever in his debt. p/s We should all chip in and buy him another racehorse, there is a saying that goes like something something on fire etc etc on him. That my feeling towards Hawke. You are an old union man can you tell us the story about Hawke (ACTU leader) and the mail sorters big strike.

Paul Gday, well if Ian ends up in prison I may visit him, he was head of a government department, I served the union members in.
I could not get in the door to see the product of unwed parents then, power brokers could but not and ordinary bloke like me.
I fully intend to try.
150%? well maybe old lofty if still alive will correct me but thought it only went to one hundred.
Liked your post, saw it propping my views up anger heat, and wrong.
I knew long ago you came from the land of the lost extremist left.
If every one of you, from all over Australia gathered the crowd would be less than 2.000 and the most informed propositions would be past in the porta loo.
Now not every proposition is bad.
But many can not even get majority support in your team.
I know your policy's, have stood on the floor watching them beaten to pulp at Labor conferences.
I love most, true, it makes me feel good, the blind stupidity of warning the world Labor is the Liberal party.
IT ALWAYS comes from the very left of reality sailing down a storm water drain on the good ship [two planks and a 44 gallon drum] we know better, wet and cold rowers shouting at us for?
Following the voters, your 150% against my 45% you never make it.

Belly I was wrong 150% its actually 250% of Australians support me. Stop gazing into your crystal ball, it out of tune. If you want to get the real facts about the 2000 and Portaloos start consulting your tea leafs, they would have to be more reliable that out of tune crystal thing. Julie and the gang are having a meeting in a Portaloo right now, you can't miss it, just look for the words ALP Conference on the door. As for a 'vote' at these Labor talk fests, to quote you:
"I know your policy's, have stood on the floor watching them beaten to pulp at Labor conferences." This imply's there is some kind of democracy within the ALP where the rank and file have a voice and, don't laugh, a vote.The only thing that gets "beaten to pulp" at ALP conferences is the ALP Left by the Right as they impose the will of the 'faceless few'.
I think I have worked you out, you say your a Labor man, a trade unionist,etc, yet you have right wing views and said you voted for the conservatives. Are you a member of The Democratic Labor Party (DLP)? The reincarnation of Bob Santamariea. The only thing I can suggest for the ALP is to dust off the old weegie board see if they can get in contact with the long dead John and Chif' could even get Arthur on the line, get back to some real Labor values, before its too late and the party self destructs. That's not a 'light on the hill' you see its a ticking time bomb about to blow the ALP apart.

Paul 1405 You have my deepest bloke, pushing that greens barrow up and down that hill and finding it is up side down can not be easy.
And,as we both know, here you can pretend you are party of a majority.
Tell you some truths.
Being part of 12% is not great.
IGNORE at your peril for every voter you have 88 who do not vote for you.
And getting policy's up in the porta loo, motions to ban coal, or legalize drugs, is not good.
Try to consider this, us awful ALP members , the much loved Conservatives, love easy wins, out number you.
I knew a bloke who had the perfect green moto, I know I am wrong but I am right.
Paul get angry but remember your promised out comes in the NSW election/lemming march.
You got it so wrong, as you do here, remember, Labor was at its lowest ever.
And your lost crew could not get it done.

Belly I'll ask again. Are you Bob Santamaria reincarnated and a member of the Labour Party, that is the Democratic Labour Party (DLP)? On the political spectrum I would sit you somewhere on the right between Attila The Hen and Ronnie Reagan.
Anger and hate are reserved for the ALP, the right faction hates the left faction, the left gets angry with the right etc etc, no time to fight the conservatives too busy fighting each other. I don't have anger nor do I hate anyone get along with all Greens, one big happy (Green) family. You play the blame game, stay in denial, all the troubles of the ALP are caused by us 'watermelons'. Please don't mention the NSW State Election, as far as the ALP is concerned it is still very much an open wound that is going to take a very very long time to heal. In fact I think the injury is mortal and the patent will die. More ALP effluent floated to the service at the ICAC this week in the form of Ian Macdonald, your old mate from your union days. After the ALP handed government to the conservatives on a platter her in NSW you again try to blame The Greens for not stopping the rot. We were happy with our vote and result got 3 up in the LC and Jamie Parker won Balmain. Unlike the ALP with their declining membership etc, 'Its Time' (like socialism, you ALP mob must never mention the Whitlam Government, its taboo, Rupert will get upset again and chuck you out) to put the old girl ALP down, The Greens grow stronger by the day, with so many committed young people joining the party.

Grow as strong as you like, unless people vote for you you get no-where. First of all you have to get Bob to retire. He is somewhat over the top. Then tell people what you stand for. We are to far removed from the stone age to return, so you have to be careful with policies. Live export of sheep and cattle will continue Why should we be concerned how the importers like their meat. If they do not get it from us they will get it from some-where else, and that is backward. I always get the feeling there is a religious component in the greens, agenda. Maybe not main stream ,but almost a hippy mentality.

579,
"First of all you have to get Bob to retire. He is somewhat over the top" Why? Answer We conservatives don't like his politics, get a leader who is an Uncle Tom suitable to us.
"Then tell people what you stand for. We are to far removed from the stone age to return, so you have to be careful with policies" why? Answer We conservatives don't like Green policies that show you are not 'good little n@#%$@'.
"Live export of sheep and cattle will continue Why should we be concerned how the importers like their meat. If they do not get it from us they will get it from some-where else, and that is backward." Why? Answer to us conservatives the all mighty dollar is God. Greens let morality get in the way of making a buck. The only good policy is policy that makes me money, morality and concern for you fellow man is for wimps, get some good conservative money making policy.
"I always get the feeling there is a religious component in the greens, agenda. Maybe not main stream ,but almost a hippy mentality."
Why? Answer, If your not main stream conservative in a 3 piece suit and your whole life doesn't revolve around making money then I think there is something wrong with you. God who in their RIGHT mind wouldn't love making money. That's all we have to talk about.
579 on the political spectrum please take a seat to the right of Belly and sit with George W Bush. Some people, gee wiz don't love money, care about their fellow man etc etc gee they must be crazy, just talking to myself, hummmmmm.

Paul 1405 thanks.
See insults like that are in debate just as in face to face debate evidence you are upset, because of the truth in my words.
I despise those you mentioned, no less than the lost ALP rats in the ranks of the greens.
Good things in the polls today, not for the stationary greens but my mob.
Do NO is at his lowest popularity since taking over from Turnbull.
Labor gained a point.
I see our country's leaders as two hopeless drunks propping each other up.
While swapping insults.
And each can thank the other,and the party's they hold back, for not thinking party first.
Both will go soon.
Had an interesting night, weird noises in the garden.
Thought it was the greens morris dancing in the nude .
Thankfully only flying foxes pinching my plums.

Belly, Wow that's great news, Labor's up a point in the polls, quick break out the Chaddy, mate its time to celebrate. I'm still celebrating the fantastic result for Labor in the recent Woolongong Council elections. The people down in the Gong, now they are 'true blue' are they not. LOL. I know you never answer any of my questions I put to you, but here is another one. Is CORRUPTION now official ALP policy? There is so much corruption within the ALP at all levels they are going to build a new wing at Long Bay jail just to house corrupt Labor Party people.
My partner is a member of the HSU East, recently they approached her wanting to know if she would stand as union delo for the PSA's at her hospital, because they have had so many resign from the union they have no delegates. She asked my advice, I said "They've got to be kidding." Belly another labor name for you Federal MP Craig Thomson. You should hear his explanation how his union credit card was used to pay for pro's at a brothel Thomson said in his defense “someone phoned the brothel with my phone, paid with my (union) credit card, then after wrote my signature and presented my photo driver’s license …. but it wasn’t me” Thomson could not explain how this mysterious person then returned his phone and put the credit card and drivers license back in his wallet. What do you think Belly was it all done by space aliens? Will I get an answer or will Belly run true to form and remain silent or tell me all about the 88% again.

AH gee! my post above yours best describes my thoughts Paul.
And good one using the conservatives anti union flogging stick.
I think the HSU should be disbanded, until the whole criminal thing is resolved.
And warn other unions too have long forgotten the reason they exist, not all however.
I offer you this, you and I can change nothing, yet we can, if we live another ten years, see who is right.
I say, given your admitted left extreme position , your greens will wither, begin the long path down.
And, no need to wait, Australia will reject every time, radical left in any form it takes any party it infects.
Winners are grinner's so if it helps insult me again.
My interest in politics is a fair balance, reforms and changes for the better.
Less waste but no more privatization, renewable energy but no cutting our wrist by banning coal.
It in my view, is a shame some place between Franklin dam and now the greens became a Socialist left radical minority views group.
Mad Lee Rianon embargoing goods from Israel, Jewish chocolate shops?
Leftist lunacy, good reference however you call her hero.

Belly extreme dictionary meaning:
farthest, utmost, or very far in any direction: an object at the extreme point of vision.
As far as I'm concerned I don't find Green policies, extreme. Rather to the contrary I believe our policies are fair and framed in the best interests of the vast majority of Australian. Unlike the conservative Labor and Liberal parties who serve vested interests. Take for example your brand new uranium policy as it relates to exporting to India. This could be seen as extreme by some as it has no safeguards that the stuff wont end up in Indian A bombs. What did Pakistan have to say: "Pakistan's High Commissioner to Australia says if the federal government sells uranium to India it would be discriminatory for it not to sell it to Pakistan as well."n To satisfy the big end of town who see there is a buck to be made by sucking up to India, who they expect to economically be another China. Tthey don't care about the inherent danger of this action, as long as they get their snouts in the trough. This is extreme action to satisfy a tiny minority.

Belly is there a flicker of SOCIALISM left in the old belly yet. Your words: "Less waste but no more privatization" that is treason, I thought you were a whole hearted supporter of 'AUSTRALIA INC.' People like our Julie's are working overtime to corporatise wherever she can. Do you want to see the great works of Paul (not me) and Bob (not Brown) undone. Here in NSW that champion of the underdog, that man of the people, Nick Greiner is working feverishly to find juicy tidbits to privatise at the right price for the big end of town. The public health system, education, transport to name but a few. I long for the day when The Royal Prince Alfred Hospital is privatised and renamed the Ita Buttrose Memorial, specialising in face lifts for the rich and famous. The poor will not be forgotten there will be the Blood and Bone works for the can't pay people, specialising in euthanasia, their ashes can be used to green the gardens of the good folk living in Valcluse, its all win win as the bankers like to say. Just the other day I overheard Nick saying to Barry "Barry those low lifes out there are still breathing air for free, Rupert wants something done about it....Sorry Nick, I'll privatise the atmosphere immediately." as for education the children of the poor will still find early employent down in the salt mines, but that's another story.

Paul a closed mind is a living nightmare.
It learns nothing, and is forever bound to think in yesterdays terms.
Australia,is in part Socialist,you can almost bet a close look at your Liberals.
A word you post to both sides and spit out like an insult.
Are in their very DNA, in matters of health and so very much more part Socialist.
Socialism, like the voters, moved on, you, looking for extremes did not.
A true Socialist would see the difference between Labor and Liberals, Labor is far better than Liberals.
But must,conservatives can not , change the wasteful paths of welfare.
Socialists/greens would do, thrive on waste.
Labor will put an end to life long sit down do nothing payments.
Liberals do it with an Axe your mob would not do it blame business or anyone.
I am comfortable in my skin,with my views.
And with an understanding my activism over all those years from Communism, in to the infected mud of Socialism,a mud hole every failed group has wallowed in.
Labor is the home of achievable change.
Your greens a leaking life boat full of every failed dream its name?
unsure but its fate is not looking any better than the well known bared wire boat.

Belly I seen the pics from the Glouester CSG Blockade Lee Rhiannon visited the other day. The aim of the blockade is to stop AGL from putting Coal Seam Gas rigs on prime farming land. I can tell you the protesters are not your raving red hippies, not one to be seen, but old ladies and farming folk, they most likely vote National. My point again, push people far enough and they just might bite back.

Those protesters would invite any one to get the point across.
I have been guest in Orange to help locals, mostly national party, try to stop importing cooked chooks.
I know if lees history was known by those protesters it would not have been kind for her.
I am content to be judged on my thoughts.
If the greens are not at their peak you will be able to remind me.

What is it with Labor Party members and prostitutes? Old Macdonald must really be on the nose here in NSW even Robo has given him the boot. Labor can ill afford to lose a member with numbers on the decline. Maybe 'Tiffany' might like to join, now there's a thought she could give some of that remedial massage she is famous for after branch meetings. At least Macdonalds story is marginally more believable than Thomson's rubbish about how his union credit card was used to pay for prostitutes. Is there a growing trend within the ALP when it comes to corruption? Has all the Labor crap bubbled to the surface is is there more to come. Julia, Kevin, Wayne any skeletons in the cupboard?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/blogs/the-dreyfus-files/coalition-should-have-red-faces-over-costings-20111207-1oigi.html
Poor fella my country.
The link has many truths within it.
Few, too few, want to know about this.
Labor is poorly lead, scrambling more to keep the wrong leader in power.
One it MUST understand is unelectable.
And Conservatives resorting to side show alley tricks.
Lead too, by the wrong man/team.
Labor is seen, by far more than ever have or will vote greens, un contaminated by them.
And, surely no one can rebut it, Greens, distrusted and disliked by far more too.
Than will ever consider voting for them.
A simple truth, met with dislike and denial, but true still.
Our country is doomed to forget, self interest is no measure of good.
May 2012 bring in Santa's bag leadership and accountability to both party's.
Reality and balance to the very lost greens and to us? a party both sides can safely hide their preferences in, away from the greens.

Paul I need not rebut your anger.
I am here on record as being less than a fan of the mentioned bloke.
You tread on dangerous ground, sex.
Glass houses, please do not continue that path.
OLO is more important than you or me.
Remember, many could return serve on that issue.
Richo, a current loud mouth earning a quid talking the ALP down, left in the same way as the flea you talk of did.

An observation, you have stooped very low here, while ignoring your own ground you stand on.

I contend you prove my charges, all of them about the greens/DLP
I rest my case.
PS
Sex is not dirty not evil not unusual.
If everyone of us was truthful we all would best not point the finger.
I have a higher regard for Prostitutes than some other sexual practices.

Belly, You are known by the company you keep Macdonald was in the company of Ron Medich,who is up on murder charges. Macdonald was sitting at a table eyeing off the 'meat' Medich had arranged through his gofer Gattellari.
You say: "Sex is not dirty not evil not unusual."
What is dirty and evil is the exploitation of women and men, (we must not leave out David Campbell Labor minister,) by these sexual predictors. No matter how you dress it up prostitution is sexual exploration, the prostitute is the victim, often forced into this roll against their will. I have nothing but contempt for the likes of Macdonald and co.
Moving on you talk about so kind of right win coalition between the conservative parties, with Labor giving voting preferences to the Liberal, interesting. Woulde suit the ALP right wing afterall they are defacto Liberals.

Paul best I leave you to your pain.
In an effort to rebut the fact your party is unloved by more than vote for it you hurl the conservatives insults at me.
Ignoring my known war on NSW Labor, its rats in the ranks so deep a good man could not be seen for some time.
I had worked with the grub you named and spoke about my intention to visit him in prison, if it could be arranged.
I also spoke of CAMBELL his visit to a sex club for men only, while questionable.
Is made look small along side his lack of any ability or honesty.
All things considered my NSW ALP acted extremely badly, I have zero time for those who hurt it.
But much confidence its worst are no worse than the greens .
Bloke enjoy your dislike,but swallow too the truth.
LABOR IS reforming, you talk of yesterdays crimes .
I talk of your party's fate tomorrow.

Belly, I have enjoyed our 'chat' on this thread, please don't take any of it personal. I think we are both basically the same. We want a fair go for the ordinary bloke. Put it this way you may have mellowed somewhat over time and believe the system is basically ok, so have a work within the system approach to achieve reform, as many Labor and Greens people do, many Greens find my ideas way out at times, certainly many of the young idealists do. Where as I'm more in favour of the radical approach to achieve the same result.
Now for the attack. You say Labor is reforming. Certainly not by the 'evidence' from the recent national conference. The right is firmly in control and no one is going to take away their power. Because of this head in the sand mentality Labor will keep moving to the right and a split could well take place. I say Labor has to reform, bring democracy to the party, give the rank and file a say, clean out the crap within and get back to basic values.

Paul no nothing personal Mate.
I think if you look a my post history you will find I do change my positions.
Mate be aware I do honestly think taking my whip to Labor is needed.
And that of late the rats in the ranks, had been chin deep in NSW.
Robo is a man I trust and like he is on the way to cleaning out that taint.
I will stay Labor/Union take the trashing from my own side.
Because I truly think as I say Labor is the only chance for left of center voters.
We need the Belly's, the maybe one day again the Paul's.
Because we need the promised reforms.
How could my party, formed all those years ago under that tree, by those men, see upwardly mobile self serving slugs.
And union rejects, controlling it.
I know our problems and fight them till death but dreams will not take the place of sweat and hard work.
Paul I live among those who the party never needed more.
But who think still, they are unwanted, it is not true but lets see if change comes my regards.

Belly, I don't want to see OZ become a US style system when the choices are right or far right. All you get is a continuous stream of right wing simplistic clowns running the show Reagan,Bush,Bush and the new guy plus others and those under them are no better. Some say Gillard is better than Abbott, that may be so but only by degree, akin to saying its better to take arsenic than strychnine, the end result is the same your dead. I don't have confidence in people like Gillard, Swan, Rudd. They tinker here and there with the sick old capitalist beast hoping to get it to run smoothly, but unfortunately it just booms then busts lunging from one crises to another. along the way millions of our fellow humans suffer, through no fault of their own. Take the India issue, who really benefits from the whole thing the average Australian, I think not, the average Indian, certainly not. Belly you are smart enough to know who the real beneficiaries are, the big end of town and some in Labor are none to willing to please. On the scale of things the Indian issue is not a big deal, but it did show how divided Labor is.

Maybe Paul I am not smart.
If I was I could have pretended my last boss was other than what he is.
Left my courage and concerns for members locked away and still been a middle income earner.
I could stop putting the movements I love, ALP UNION first here, and pretend everything is ok mate.
You will see nothing of your teams wrongs from you.
No conservative asking why Peter Reith left Parliament under a cloud.
Why Abbott promised to vote for him then betrayed him.
No one will talk of an ex National party leader Deputy Prime Minister and ask of his reason to leave Parliament.
It seems only the ALP has skeletons in its cupboards.
Or is it we are being lied to.
Is it con men who thrive on telling us only one side.
Are my warnings to LABOR, my reminding them, it is was them driving such as you to a mud hole of lost hopes a sin? or haveing the heart to say party first, second, last, .
Mate, I lived within the movement, my thoughts if agreed with bought praise, if not I was called a fool.
But in the long run, almost every thing I said would take place did my detractors rushed back with questions.
This is our future, Labor will rebuild, is doing it, Liberals will win, but be one term,so bad are its NO policy's
Greens? sorry bloke dream your dreams, harvest the falling ALP leaves the truly lost left and the quite mad.
But know, it is true,unavoidably so, Australians in numbers you can never over come see your dreams as their nigh mares.

Posters with a true interest in politics can do far worse than go to ABC.
Find Fridays NSW 7.30 report.
A man probably dieing from my party's left.
A true party hero,has much to say in a story named some thing like *who killed my party*
I am so very proud, to be in the company of such a man.
His words are mine, have been seen here in print for 4 years.
NSW is a blot/insult/to me my party and its voting supporters.
OH we are not alone, History reminds us of two Conservative Knights.
But my party took its caning.
It must not ever forget.
Sussex Street, the suits the morally bankrupts.
My party is not yours.
I will never forget never forgive, but unlike you,I value the party too much to turn dog.
If the reforms do not return my party to its membership, shout from every roof top, 60 50 or even 25% in Union hands even the idiot left, who taint the party with grubs in seats more informed should have.
We die.
No not the greens,in fact we will change ,but if not,
NEW LABOR will come.

Belly, Like the chosen people you are waiting for the 'Labor Messiah' to arrive. The 'Green Messiah' is at hand but unfortunately you don't like the message he brings. The right wing Pharisees of Old Labor want to crucify the new 'Green Messiah' the message of 'love thy neighbor' is just to unpalatable for them.
We can only stand by and watch 'Old Labor' crash and burn. Unfortunately no new labor phoenix will ever rise from the ashes.
The good Green policy is there for all to see, unlike the 2 conservative parties who have no real policies at all. I hark back to Gillard and her push to sell uranium to India. Do you think Julia woke up one morning and said to herself, "It would be wonderful for Australia if we sell uranium to India." Or was Gillard pressured by her masters, the faceless men from the big end of town, to change. Like the Liberal Party the ALP is under the thumb of Capital. If Julia keeps pushing Labor to the right then it is in danger of completely disappearing up the conservatives, you know what.

Paul I grow weary of our debate.
I have as much chance of wining the Lottery today, as the greens have.
Of ever again holding the power they do today in federal politics.
I do not have a ticket.
OFF this I am sure, you under value public opinion.
Getting back to the threads title,we are a long way from its intent.
Banjo lashed out and in truth failed to even begin to understand what he was on about.
However while I think I won that round.
And I know Labor is on the way back,better than ever,and the Greens are in mortal danger of fading away as the mask slips.
A truth can not be avoided.
Without factional control Gillard would be gone.
She never would have been in this job.
As labor now, holds a two party vote, once its own primary one.
Are factions homes of self interest or my party's.
Gillard is unelectable
Is Labor going to fatten the pig on election day?
I leave you to your dreams.
The thread deserves a decent burial, it has served its purpose but drifts in to not understanding.
The green taint is putting conservatives in power.
Gillard too is greatly assisting them,she is worth 10% to them.

Another case of Labor hypocrisy. Tony Kelly former NSW minister joins the long list of corrupt Labor politicians, when will it end? Seems Kelly thought it was okay for him to commit forgery for a Labor mate Warwick Watkins so said the ICAC. How can Robinson afford to kick Kelly out of the party, considering members are deserting in their droves and joining The Greens. Is Long Bay now Labors biggest branch in NSW? Could be. I think Ian Macdonald will be joining the sorry bunch soon.

Tony Kelly led country Labor,he and Sussex Street near killed it and Labor.
As you know Paul my words condemning him and them, have been seen here for the past four years.
Yesterdays news yesterdays crimes.
Never forgotten never forgiven.
But you should have at least, quoted my party's new leader Robo.
For the second time in one month he demanded a former member life time slug be removed from the ALP.
Robo played no part in the murder by its own hand of NSW Labor.
He will rebuild it
Quoting polls, bad polls for Gillards contemptible cowards, those who leave her to harm my party ,is ok.
Why did you not tell us your mob went down too.
Labor lead by Shorten or Rudd rises ten points
Yours the real Emily's list party, have to be extremist left and female, needs a heart transplant.