I've known Scotty for 8 yrs who runs a tool making business in Sydney.He has several computerised machines that make widgets to order and competes internationally with China and Taiwan.Scotty had just one employee last yr and now works alone running these machines 24/7.He prices out his labour at $35 per hr with all overheads included.These machines bought new are worth over $ million.He only makes money because they run 24/7 when he has the work.

In the last couple of yrs his electrical bill has trebled and it is now $24,000 pa.When the CO2 tax kicks in,Scotty says it is all over for him.How many other businesses will suffer the same fate under these lunatic Labor Ludites.There is no more fat to cut from the bone.

Govt does not create wealth.It sucks wealth from the productive population and mostly wastes it.

The Gillard Govt led by Bob Brown is criminally insane! We should be all in the streets insisting that these morons resign.

I think he needs to look into why his power bill has trebled in three years. From $ 8,000 to $24,000 That is 32,000 kwh to 96,000 kwh / yr
Or .08 c / kwh to .25 c / kwh. Hardly correct.

579,Just yesterday he told me that his quarterly bill was $6000 per quarter.Perhaps this was partly due to the purchase of a new machine and running machines longer .He did say that is bill has trebled.The facts still remain that many business will just shut down or go off shore.

There will be be less tax collected since there will be less productive industry.We will spiral into more debt.The service industry jobs will shrink because people will do their own lawns,cleaning, pooch washing,cooking etc.Labor wants to create thousands of more jobs in the PS to regulate us into grinding poverty.

My power bills have more than doubled.Are you trying to defend the policies of these lunatics?

I do not know what state you are living in, but my cost / kwh has gone up from 21 c / kwh to 25 c/kwh in 12 months. But the off peak power has come down from 21 c / kwh to 10 c / kwh in the same time. Try another state.

Look, the business environment changes all the time.
A bit more than a hundred years ago there were howls of fury at the then government when all the buggy whip manufacturers went bust. Those dratted cars should have been banned.
There are hundreds of possible reasons why your friend's business is struggling.
In a capitalist system you pay your money and you take your chances.
I dont hear anybody rushing to congratulate the government for all the profitable businesses in the country.
Yet when a business fails, somehow it has to be the government's fault.
I'm sorry for your friend's plight, but to borrow a redneck phrase, "That dog just won't hunt."
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

$ 8,000 for power in 12 months is .25 c/ kwh = 32,000 kwh
$ 24,000 for power in 12 months is .75 c / kwh = 96,000 kwh.

Please get your proportions right, Arjay - Not every thing that is evil and stupid amounts to slavery, otherwise you will run out of names for the next bad blow. What for example are you going to call the latest kidnapping of Mr. Slipper? "Holocaust" perhaps? And having mentioned that atrocity, why are you willing to discount Labor as "Lunatic" - isn't all they do premeditated?

Now you and I know that the government rapes us every day from every conceivable direction, but Labor's reputation as Ludites is very poor - I wish they were indeed true good Ludites, but they only destroy good old proven and stable technology, not the dubious and flimsy latest electronic toys, which they genocidally push school children to get addicted on. You must be aware that they are the same guys who, with their NBN, are now preparing our gas chambers.

noted my power price has just gone from

17.1300 [may 2010]..19.4100..nov 2010..
to 20.6900..[nov 2011]

off peak..11.6660..[aug 2011]
to12.4300..[10 nov 2011]

i use point .23 tons c02
so thats going to be 23$ extra
im self funded retired..[no dicounts no income]

mycurrent bill reads..electicty used..$30.66
plus service to property charge.......$22.51
plus gst...............................$5.32

near half my cost is..govt charges
now add in the c02 tax...more than half my cost is for govt taxes

add in my tobacco tax..
and other forms of other taxes...rates etc

the fact govt has declared war on me
little wonder i search for other solutions

http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=8225&start=70

An interesting case study, Arjay. But are you sure you have your facts properly sorted?

>>I've known Scotty for 8 yrs who runs a tool making business in Sydney<<

Toolmakers are generally skilled craftspeople. From your description - it is a one-person operation that runs multiple computerized machines that are able to run unattended - there seems to be little skill required.

>>Perhaps this was partly due to the purchase of a new machine and running machines longer<<

He purchased a new machine, for "over $ million"? That wouldn't seem to be the wisest decision, under the circumstances. The interest payments on a million bucks would be at least six grand a month. And - generously - depreciating the equipment over ten years, that's another eight grand a month. Not cash, of course, but even so that one new machine is costing his business a cool fifteen thousand a month.

Puts the power bill into the small-change basket, given that he has a number of these machines lying around using up the juice.

I'd strongly suggest he employs a decent accountant, who could advise him against these rash decisions.

Or perhaps you haven't quite got the story straight, Arjay.

Wouldn't be the first time, would it.

I wonder how he has survived so long Arjay.

I gave up manufacturing brass products, for the local market, using similar machines, about 12 years ago.

That was when the cost of just the raw brass feed stock, fed to those machines to make the main components, exceeded the cost of importing the finished product, chrome plated, & assembled, including a couple of custom molded neoprene rubber seals, all assembled & even in a bloody box, with our name on it.

Just how brass, made with our copper, & zinc, can cost so much more here than in Taiwan, or China, I really can't imagine. I admit I have not tried too hard to figure it out, as the answer would probably only upset me. It probably has the hand of Keating in it.

I'd rather go for a few long drives in my sports car, before the bitch gets at my little sport, with even higher petrol prices.

How do you do it OUG. Before my mum went my bills were running at well over $500 a month, & still won't go below $400.

Of course about half of that is pumping water. Turn on a tap, & a pump has to run. Pull the plug, the water goes into a grey water system, required by council of course, which requires a pump to empty it.

Every time I have a drink of water, make a coffee, or wash a shirt, I'll feel that awful womans hand in my pocket. But never mind, I've decided to live long enough to dance on her grave, no matter how long it takes.

Arjay Balance please,, understanding too if possible.
The tax has not been paid yet.
Not a cent
Starts July 2012.
NSW failed ALP government, my party, it reject shop rejects, shop refused to take them.
Put prices up, yep ALP made us pay more than power was worth, yes ALP.
To? make it a better proposition to sell?
Great job, not NSW now has ownership of the polls and wire, well after the coming generator sale.
Sorry, sorry your story will not float, sorry my party got so low, sorry for the thousands who need help to pay those bills.
And mate sorry a party of the workers in its strongest state BETRAYED the poor who sit in cold and dark homes afraid to use power.

Belly, I just wish you & your mates could take control of your party again.

I wish we could get some real people in there, & get rid of all these arts/law graduates that fill the place, on both sides.

Do you think we could ban anyone who has been a "young" anything at uni, it would get rid of a lot of the smarties?

Perhaps we should go for a drive to a secluded fishing spot for a while, that is before they close the rest of those down to fishing, to buy a few green votes.

579, I think that the the guy's charges have gone up, not his usage. With a nom de plume like yours, you could at least get the figures right.

I don't know what state you live in but it's certainly not South Australia where electricity, gas and water prices have gone through the roof yet usage hasn't changed.

Arjay says his power bill has tripled. So what does that tell you. from $8000 to $24000 / yr If you are not using the power, that means the cost has risen from .25 to .75 / kwh which is not likely.

Even allowing that electricity costs have risen dramatically, I do not understand the reference to CO2 in the thread heading.
First, the Carbon Tax has not yet begun, so how can it have effected historical energy prices?
Second, the energy companies themselves acknowledge that the major cost driver is the lack of infrastucture investments which they say is the result of legislative uncertainty over the past one to two decades under successive governments, both Coalition and Labor.
It seems to me that the Carbon Tax at least does provide a degree of certainty for the energy companies and that it is Abbott's threat to rescind the legislation that is maintaining uncertainty.
In any event, it's hard to see how any CO2 abatement action could already be effecting this guy's - or anybody else's - energy costs.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

So now the Federal Government is soley responsible for the production and distribution of electrical power?

I thought it was the responsibility of the States or the private companies that now own it.

As I recall, the last big power price rise was the result of the GST.

hasbeen...turned off the hotwater system..was the biggest cost
more than half the bill..

[i like cold showers]..

then dropped the bill again
by going fully onto off peak

next switched off the tv drawing 95 watts..and got one smaller one that drawed 40 watts...next i went digetal..[drawing 15 wattts]

next i might see if it works on battery
[it uses a 12 volt converter]
plus a solar regharge

but i think i get then to the stage..
where batteries cand solar cost more than my power

i have yet to figure out why we cant get 12 volt's on line inputs
most of our electic gear uses lower voltage..and gets stopped down[making heat;wasdted energy]

of course living like a blackfella helps

even though the full time cost of peak power
used for 2 hours perday..[when off peak is off]..
only costs one buck 45 cents..every 3 months

if my fridge wasnt new allready
i would have liked a 12 volt one

anyhopw its only too easy
lights are 15 watt..[but found an automotive leadlight fluero that draws only 8 whats]..ben playing with solar lights..but that didnt workout..[the batteries wont recharge anymore[so wasted 50 trying that solar based scam]

but heck its all about quick fix consumerism
im over spending any more on it

[200 plus bucks a year..
yea i can live with it]
and 225..so what

but i hate all the lies
hate govt subsidises the rich to free solar
while doubling my meager power costs

it should be the acces fee
is scrapped for the 40%..smallest users
and the 10%..bigger users should pay 3 times more

manufacturors should egsamin other options
waterwheels are great..river banks should be using flowing water energy

[moter vehicles [internal combustion]..
should be using joe fuel cells..

egsamine magnetic drive moters[at you tube]
look for a big engine size one..not the kiddies models
cant find its link..but previously posted

Athonyve that was my point.
Remember I did warn you.
Subjects around climate change and the federal ALP are often remote from reality.
Truth can be bent twisted its hands tied behind its back then thrown about in the wrong direction.
Not one cent in tax has been taken, yet every thing from rainfall to storms and sunshine are blamed on it.
From the same folk who consider curtains fade more in daylight saving.
Hasbeen, I have never defended the silly in my party, my constant reminder of how bad/awful/grubby/ they became once Bob Carr left is a reminder to them/party.
NEVER AGAIN betray your supporters and party.
How ever if you and I borrowed a council rubbish truck, to remove the fools from federal Parliament.
3 loads of conservatives would get us started.
1 OF ALP no greens.
We would make them walk to the dump to save fuel!
Greens in truth would have a few equal to the best, but policy's is what catches up with them.

The fact of the matter is that businesses are in trouble, why, this is why.

Having been in small business for 20+ years, I have seen the decline, mostly in the past four years and mainly due to lack of confidence.

I would once think little of borrowing $500K, even a million, because I have the cash flow to repay the loan. Not any more, those days ar all but gone.

The problem is margins.

I had a shop churning out 10 to 15 tons of meat every week. My margin was 28% and I made a fortune.

Today, a typical shops margin is around 50%, yet our net dollars are less than they were 15 years ago. Why, because of all the costs and fees now.

We are struggling to net 10% and that's not enough any more, not for the risks involved.

I know a guy with a great restaurant, turned over $260K last month, yet netted less than $10K.

He also employs about 16 people.

He, like me, will close cause it's no longer worth the risk.

You see big business can run on small margins,, but small ones can't.

This is why the carbon tax is bad.

Everyone in the supply chain will add their bit, but the consumer will refuse to pay, so they will flock to th majors as they have the power to say no to the suppliers, because many of these suppliers are now exclusive to either Coles or wollies and, if they say jump, the supplier must jump or loose thier contract, plus thei only income, plus often thier house, family, etc etc.

This is a bad tax and it will hurt many.

Don't say you were not warned!

butch. You constantly go on about the impending carbon tax, so what sort of rises are you expecting. Or is what you say all crap.

Rehub, hasbeen et al,
This link will tell you why businesses are having trouble with their
cash flow and why the customers do not have the resources they used
to have.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-11-22/it-really-possible-decouple-gdp-growth-energy-growth

I have not read the following link but knowing the author, I did meet
him once and had a short chat, you might find him interesting and if
you read some of his writings or Utube it will explain a lot of what
is going on here & overseas.

http://www.energybulletin.net/media/2011-11-22/end-growth-richard-heinberg

Just remember growth depends on growing energy.

579, unlike governments,who can run on a cost recovery basis, a business mus make a profit to survive.

Any outlay one makes must also generate a return for the business, otherwise it's like buying a raffle ticket with no prize.

Now say the large polluters have to pay 100 million in carbon tax.

Well, first they have to fund this, either from cash reserves, or, from borrowed funds.

Now if it's from cash, then they need to factor in lost opportunity, in othe words, what could they have done wit that money if not for the tax. Let's call it 12%.

So if they need to make 12%, then they have to add 14% to thier prices t recover that 12%.

Now if they borrow the 100 million, thenthey have funding costs, plus lost opportunity, so say 20%.

In both cases they have admin costs to consider.

The whole point is that they will simply pass this tax on to the next guy, then they to will have to apply thier mark up so they get their out of pockets, the list goes on.

The end resut is that we, the real pollutes will pay big time from the tax, whereas, had the government charged big useres in the first place, there would be no tax.

Sure the cost would still go on, but not to the same extent.

It's like the GST. Why collect a tax to give it back.

This tax will hurt.

Now on the off chance I am wrong, and I hope I am, then I will gladly eat humble pie.

I am reminded of this, in just my life time my country and the way we make a living has changed so very much.
Post ww2 Migration shook us out of our she will be right mate world.
We saw new jobs new things and ways to eat.
We saw folk who came here penniless, by hard work become million airs , even billion airs.
Far more of us set out to own homes work for our selves and we grew to todays Australia.
Remember this thread, many others, is based on a bias, an untrue proposition, that a tax ,,not yet in force, has broke a business over the last 3 years?
Rechtub, mate, who do you blame? you pointedly say 4 years, is that true.
Would it have been any different under Howard.
Is it any use? can avoiding looking at the whole tribe of Elephants in the room, its impacts on world business the GFC be of any use?
We spent and earned like a stick in fast flowing river.
Thought wrongly we would never have to pay.
Human nature, young Brides nature.
The credit card became a monster.
New house, maybe two cars carpet, furniture we wanted to pass the folk next door.
We extended our loans and spent again Bali we wanted we forgot we must pay.
Now? we pay those loans, we spend far less we stay home we eat cheaper foods, we cook at home.
And our shrinking purchases? well its ok blame politicians, power bills, fuel, Henny penny stuff but its good to lash out at some one.

Well belly, I have to agree with you on most points.

As for Howard, well, history, and the position we were left in upon his exiting is the only benchmark we have to use.

Retail was doing quite well until around August 09, when, after rud convinced many to buy thier homes with the $21K he splashed around, interest rates went up.

I said back then that the government was beginning to effect people's confidence and, if you take away thier confidence , you would effect their spending and wolla! The rest is history.

Now, as for those coming here and making millions, even billions.

Although I give them credit, most did not make it from hard work alone, they made it from the buying and selling of assetts, without so much as a penny in tax, as there was no capital gains tax.

Another source of wealth was in the form of shopping centers.

Many migrants purchased centers and proceeded to increase rents, generally 5% each year. Many rents have almost doubled in ten years.

Much of their wealth today is in assetts, assetts which in time will be worthless as small retail is all but finished.
Continued

The one point I agree with more than any, is that people have a spending problem

There are many things I would change.

Redraw interest for non assett purchases would be at 13%.

First home owners grant would be a loan, not a grant. 10 years interest free would be a good start. At least then the money could be used again to help others, not used to redraw upon to buy a holiday.

Another huge shift in the jobs market is the fact that we have gone from making things, to watching things.

We now have this whole level of compliance jobs, jobs that are mostly funded from the tax payer.

We also have profiteering from labour. You know, a traffic controller on $22 an hour, but charged to the government at more like $40 an hour.

Councils used to employ their own staff for this, not any more.

I met a guy once on $1600 per week. He was a contractor, hired by the local coincil to clean public BBQ,s. You're, kidding!

Finally belly, having been in business for 23 years gives me a strong bank of knowledge.

I have seen two serious downturns in this time, both if which have been while labor holds office.

Sorry, but that is fact.

butch All i can make out of that is the costs will be moved on. I presume you are talking about power generation. The power generator may pass on the costs to the power providers. The power providers will pass costs on to the consumer. There are a lot of providers out there and are all breaking each others necks to pinch customers. The consumer will choose a provider at the best cost to them. So there is no such thing as direct cost shifting. At this stage costs involved are a pie in the sky, a fantasy until the legislation is acted. As for Labor being in power during your two downturns. Labor did not implement the world crisis, nor did it implement consumer non confidence, so your finger pointing is unfounded.

Rubbish, 579.

Labor crippled small, medium and large business in the early 90's with their worst ever policy, unfair dismissal.

As for the GFC, of cause they did not cause it, but, did the GFC cause the insulation debarce, resulting in at least four avoidable deaths or the solar scheme failure, or perhaps the school halls programe, or what about fuel watch, grocery watch, or the alco pop tax mess, or perhaps the way the stimulus was wasted, or what about copenhagen, or even cash for clunkers.

No, these failed trophies, along with others were all proud achievements of this incompitent, wasteful government.

They were dumped in mass at the polls, only madam PM just would not accept defeat.

Don't believe me, call an election, I dare them!

The people will never forgive labor for the mess they have created, especially given the great shape we were in tha they inherited some four short years ago.

It's not so much a matter of wether Abbott is the right person, it's more a case of do labor deserve the right to another chance.

For me, the risks are simply to high.

Hi Rechtub,
I'm rather glad you raised the, in your words, "Insulation debacle"

If you read the analysis here,

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/04/24/the-csiro-gets-hip-to-debunking-media-hysteria/

you will see that, when facts enter the debate the picture is rather different.

Actually, there was no debacle; it was a media beat up as the data clearly shows.

My point isn't to start a debate about the insulation programme, but rather to show how, when one seeks out data, one can often reach a different conclusion from what one might end up with relying solely on mainstream media nonsense.
It's yet another case of spoiling a good story with facts...
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observatinpoint.com.au

*You see big business can run on small margins,, but small ones can't.*

That is exactly why we need big business, Rehctub. A Woolies or
a Coles run on 3-4% margin, you claim you can't make it on 10%.
In that case the consumer is clearly better off shopping at Coles.

I buy alot of inputs for my business and I'm sick of every small
business man thinking that I should make him rich too, by charging
me a fortune. For his easy money means higher input costs for my
business.

When I was in the seafood business, I was more then happy with a
10% margin. I made up for it in volume and efficiency. By giving
customers value for money, they kept coming back, so advertising
costs were virtually zilch. I kept quality control so high that
nothing would go out the door, that I would not be happy to buy
myself as a consumer. Its amazing how consumers respond, when you
take on their perspective and give them what they want at a fair
price, it does not always have to be the cheapest price.

That business model will continue to work in the future, even in
small business

Butch You will have to come up with something more substantial to be in the hunt. Just like the media you are scare mongering, before any legislation is enacted. There are a lot of people who would take what you say as gospel, and cause unnecessary panic. Another thing with your forecast power rises, you do not have to buy dirty power, you can bye alt energy, no carbon tax there, they are all competing in the same market. Get ya facts straight before any rash forecasts are made.

Ok Anton, I would suggest the four deaths that occurred far out weigh any potential fire risk, as they are undeniable.

As for the fire risk, tell me, would you buy a house, knowing it was insulated under the failed programe, further knowing that it had not bee inspected?

Yabby, it's funny how you being a farmer can sit there in support of those who have single handedly caused more grief to the nations farmers than anyone else.

All in th name of your super returns.

Nice try on the margins by the way.

You see 3% of a billion is quite nice, however, 3% of a million is not even equivalent to wages.

This is why small retailers need better margins. But you already knew that.

579, you just keep dreaming and assume this huge tax won't be passed on, plus some.

Sorry Anton, forgot something.

Are you by chance suggesting the failed insulation program was not a debacle?

Rechub & 579
Five of the last six recessions have immediately followed spikes in oil
prices. The dot.com crash is an exception.

I don't think anything done or not done in Australia can bring on a world recession.

The scammers that were in the insulation system have been dealt with and moneys recovered. The only debacle is in your head. The carbon tax will be passed on but it's a matter of how much gets through to the end user.
Individual suppliers will be wary of passing on the full amount, with the amount of competition in the retail system. Your suggestion of more than the tax amount is another pie in the sky.

Hi Rechtub,
I already said that it was not a debacle, however, I'm happy to repeat - it was not a debacle, as the data I linked clearly demonstrates.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

*Yabby, it's funny how you being a farmer can sit there in support of those who have single handedly caused more grief to the nations farmers than anyone else.*

Not so, Rehctub. Any dealings that I've had with Coles or Woolies,
they are alway prepared to buy the best. Its the corruption going
on with smaller buyers, which has always been the problem. Coles
are targeting Kraft, Unilever, Nestle, etc and fair enough. These
are global companies and there is no good reason why Aussie consumers
should pay higher prices then others around the world. If Nestle make
a 40% margin on coffee, why should they not be taken to task with
competition?

A 10% margin, which you say is unviable, on a million dollars is
still a very good living.

But it comes down to return on equity. 12% return on equity is
a good return in today's world. If small players demand a fortune
for taking risk, well frankly then we are better off with big
players.

I am not here to subsidise the local butcher and make his fortune
for him, the easy way. You guys should be able to run rings around
the likes of Coles, with better efficiency and better service.

But I'm not going to pay high prices, just to subsidise the huge
rents charged by Westfield and Co.

I am firmly in yabby camp here.
I remain loyal to those who are loyal to me.
Rechtub bloke you should get out out your shops, you seem stuck in other times.
Butchers with inventive drive and willing to change will prosper.
Barring that, blame me for the down turn, I had as much to do with it as our government.
Tell you what, goggle English newspapers.
See if you would want to trade there, or America Spain list is long.
Me and my ALP have a lot to answer for or do we?
I want two pork chops in marinade and a KG of fish snags .
Say if I wanted to put an order in every week can IN change it a day before due to pick it up.
And please! do not run cold water over beef snags to make them look like pork ok?
OH yes stop all comments about politics in your shops some are offended by being told they are brainless idiots, smile, never know who is watching.
And mate! is that your thumb print on the scales?

Pericles does not believe yet again.Anything outside of his experience is not credible.I'll give you a guided tour Pericles to prove the Scotty does indeed work alone.Are you willing to take it up or whimp out yet again!

The reality is that we cannot continue to flog off our resources for next to nothing and take a small % as royalties.Sooner or later it will all end due to China finding other suppliers or them running out.

The Public servant mentality seems to think that regulation is saving the environment.Nothing could be further from the truth.Regulation is not stopping Coal Seam gas from destroying farmland or threatening our Artesian Basin.

Either we stand up to this tyranny or become total slaves in our own country.Imperialism and facism has raised its ugly head again under the noble concept of saving the planet from too many people.

When all of your rights have gone,what chance to you and your children have in surviving the next decade? Germany was a free country before Hitler rose to power.They wouldn't let extermination happen again,would they ?

579 has got be a 'Get Up' Labor Stooge.In NSW our power bills have more than doubled in 3 yrs with even more frugal usage.Belly also sticks up for a party that are treacherous liars.

Arjay, mate, do you not think you might be getting a bit carried way, comparing today's Australia to Hitler's Germany?
Time for a bex and a good lie down, perhaps.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Arjay;
My electrity rate in November 2008 was
12.7 cents per kw hour for 1st 1841 Kwh
18.9 cents per Kwh for 851 Kwh
In 2011
20.6 cents per Kwh for 1st 1745 Kwh
29 cents per Kwh for 114 Kwh

61% I think.

I am in NSW

Anthonyve,I'm talking about commercial rates.I will check my factory rates tomorrow.

The Labor party led by the Greens lied to us about the CO2 tax.This is not democracy.They are a bunch of fascists.

arjay your habit of putting the verbal boot into every one is charming.
You target every time Pericles a poster few would not see as well anchored.
I fall victim to your hate of the ALP again, you must never have seen my comments about NSW.
Your posts and this thread best describe you.
Can it be you truly did not know the tax you blame for power has never been paid.
Mate you self confidence is miss placed.
Your sources of information little more than comic books for the though fully idle.
Those you defame, for haveing views other than yours, are assured of victory handed to them by your self in the intended insults.
I await a post or thread from you that is based on reality.

Belly,Pericles invites a good tongue lashing with his contant innuendos,adhominem and lies.Simple solution Belly.If can't stand the heat,don't work in my kitchen.

arjay your post gives me reason to be sorry, several, and all for you.
It mate is not your kitchen, nore is it mine.
Why do you post, I like to have my say, see others views, taste the very air on issues.
In post I can not asure myself I will not get it wrong,sometimes very.
Nore can I say I will not be targeted for my views, I understand, the person who is always right has not yet been born.
Too that my support for unionism is shared by only one in 5.
That the party of choice for me is currently holding less than half this country's support.
arjay, have you ever thought about why you find a poster as balanced as Pericles a lie user but rabbit on constantly about 9/11 in terms that are so weird and untrue it questions your understanding.
Some in this world, who knowingly lie should consider it is no crime not to believe them.
Your kitchen? good for a laugh but sad too.

Never mind Arjay, When a good conspiracy comes along you can hold the floor. Co2 is invisible, Carbon is black particles, a price on carbon was an inevitable outcome. We should see a cleaning of the air we breath, who knows, things like asthma may disappear. Wouldn't that be good.

Another classic example, Arjay, of your tendency to ready, fire, aim.

>>Pericles does not believe yet again.Anything outside of his experience is not credible.I'll give you a guided tour Pericles to prove the Scotty does indeed work alone.<<

I believe you, I believe you. And for the record, I never said otherwise. Go check. You managed to grasp the wrong end of the stick, yet again.

It is interesting though that you made no comment on the analysis of Scotty's running costs. With his balance sheet stuffed full of expensive fixed assets, and his P&L groaning under the combined weight of debt repayments and depreciation, it is little wonder that he is finding the going tough.

More to the point, though, it puts the relatively trivial increase in electricity costs into perspective. At a time when his power bill increased (according to your figures) by $1,400 a month, he burdened the business with ten times that amount in additional costs.

Nobody I know can sustain a business with that financial profile. Especially when they are only charging their own time at $35 an hour. And as well as the production time, he has to get out there and sell against his Chinese and Taiwanese competitors. Poor guy - his problems are far greater than the prospect of an even bigger electricity bill.

Scotty, if you're reading this, do yourself a favour, and get out now. If you like, you can blame the carbon tax, and pretend that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. We'll all nod our heads, and agree with you, because we're all very polite, and in situations like this we will bite our tongue, and not state the obvious.

Pericles you are not too smart.He has 4 machines and when they are set in motion,each of them earns $35 per hr.They operate without a constant attendant.Howvever there is also down time in prepartion and programming time.When you consider the cost of each @ $300,000 the margins are fine.

You are not in the industry so how would you know?

What is this bloke manufacturing $35 / hr is not exactly, a great return on $300,000 8,571 hrs or 357 days, [ 24 hrs] to regain your deposit, without interest. Is he making nails.

If you change the story, Arjay, then of course the end result will be different.

>>Pericles you are not too smart<<

As I said in the first instance, "are you sure you have your facts properly sorted?" It now seems that my suspicions were correct.

You kicked off with...

>>These machines bought new are worth over $ million<<

...then you told us...

>>Perhaps this was partly due to the purchase of a new machine...<<

Now you tell us...

>>the cost of each @ $300,000<<

As I thought, you hadn't got your facts straight. A million is a somewhat larger number than $300,000, after all.

If you are going to illustrate your diatribes with a "real life" example, Arjay, it is important to get the details right. Otherwise, people might think you are simply spinning a yarn.

And heaven forbid you'd ever do that.

Here is something relevant to this discussion;

Aussie manufacturing is getting hammered in 2011.

Manufacturing start-ups vanished this year.
A Dun & Bradstreet study shows new start-ups in manufacturing have
slumped from 700 a year on average for the past 3 years… to just 14 in the first six months of 2011.

No surprise manufacturing stocks fell like a stone this year.

The currant atmosphere is not quite there at the moment, if it aint accentual no one is buying. Be interesting to see how christmas will go, or will boxing day be the winner. No matter which one wins there won't be any carbon tax involved, just the normal rip offs.

arjay does not shoot like that
It goes like this fire! aim! get ready! ouch my foot.
Any one putting that much in to producing a product at that rate is heading for bankruptcy.
I again point out the thread claimed a non existent tax killed him.
With I a nonexistent victim, in nonexistent factory.

If Scotties power consumption is 32,000 kWh the carbon tax will add only $736 to his bill. (The carbon tax adds 2.3 cents/kWh to coal fired power.) What is his power consumption?

John D welcome.
In Ajay's posts from top to bottom some differences seem to appear.
However in the title,and in that content.
Arjay seems to blame a tax not yet payed, by any one for Scotty's troubles
I fear Scottie may well be looking to be beamed up.

Putting aside all the Belly/Pericles BS,we will not have any sort of manufacturing with this CO2 tax.That is the reality.

Scott does not lie and I'm not going to ask for his bill as proof.3 phase machines use a lot of power.I see him daily working alone for many a long hour.You don't compete with the likes of Taiwan on mass produced items unless you cut all overheads out.This carbon tax will be the end of us since no one else outside the shaky Isles is implementing it.These labor criminals must go! Already we hear of more IPCC scandals of coverups and collusion to cook the books in favour of AGW.

The NAB recently comes out in support of an ETS and a carbon tax.Why? Not because of noble notions of saving the planet,but because they can profit from the derivative market scams that are really nebulus.

Either Labor goes or say welcome to real poverty.

What is real poverty. Where i live a housing corp; is procuring fed ;funding to build a stack of affordable housing. The deal is you have to live in the house for five years. The council is involved, and they are looking for low income buyers, if you earn between $ 50,000 and $ 100,000 / year , you are eligible to apply.

No-one is suggesting otherwise, Arjay.

>>Scott does not lie...<<

After all, he is not the one posting to this forum. You are. And all that I have pointed out is that your numbers simply don't stack up, the way you have presented them. You chose to illustrate your moan against the carbon tax with his business details, so you bear the responsibility for their accuracy.

Or lack thereof.

But I'm interested in some of the assumptions you appear to make.

>>...we will not have any sort of manufacturing with this CO2 tax... That is the reality.You don't compete with the likes of Taiwan on mass produced items unless you cut all overheads out<<

You haven't mentioned what Scotty manufactures, but we now know that it is some form of mass-produced widget. Is it your view that he should continue to manufacture these widgets here, earning himself $35 an hour and supporting a capital-intensive small business structure, with no hope of survival - let alone expansion - given that his production costs can never compete with China or Taiwan?

It has very little to do with the carbon tax, Arjay, and everything to do with the nature of the business Scotty is in. He has nowhere left to cut, in terms of his cost structures, and little opportunity, it would seem, to expand either. His only hope, I suggest, would be to find a low-volume, high(er) value niche, where he can safely operate without competition from businesses with a lower cost structure. If the volumes are sufficiently low, overseas competitors simply wouldn't bother to tool up. And if the unit value is sufficiently high, Scotty can build in a more comfortable margin for himself.

If you are looking for an example of how the carbon tax will cripple Australia's competitiveness, this is the wrong one.

arjay your rudeness and hostility say more about you than others.
That closed mind of yours often tells others we talk BS.
I have a question.
Is Scotty real? or is he a teddy bear left over from your childhood toys.
Labors co2 tax slavery.
It must be awful the impacts haveing been felt up to 4 years before implementation.
Any Chance the shock wave knocked over the twin towers?

Hey Belly said;
It must be awful the impacts haveing been felt up to 4 years before implementation.

You mean like spending being removed from 2012-2013 and income being
moved in ?

Real remote control hey !
Do you think the council will let me pay next years rates a year later ?

Bit silly that Bazz.
I will leave the thread now GY wants us to tighten up a bit and I find that hard when talking to arjay.
Your post Bazz is one I could address but so far of subject, a rule we all seem to ignore, that it is silly.
Question time shows some thing we may look at here if we are trying to clean up our act.
The last speaker tried very hard to keep questions/posts? and answers less augmentative and on theme.

Well I don't know if it is that silly, after all Swann has done just
that to fake his result.