I have spoken with a former high Court Judge, a Chief Qld Magistrate, other Magistrates, Police Officers & a few do-gooders.
My question to them was who can actually change law in this country ? i asked what the Law reform Commission was actually doing & I got the unanimous reply of we'd like to know too.
Other answers included only Parliament can change laws.
We're now at a stage where juveniles can literally get away with murder & yet still the same inadequate laws apply. How can we change that ? You can't grab hold of one of the little mongrels because you'll be the one getting charged yet no-one pays you compensation. I am pushing for juvenile crime to be knocked on the head but can not find any way of who to contact without being told to try somewhere else. Apart from making it an election issue I can't see any out of this intolerable situation. Anyone know better ?

Individual, how would you suggest the laws should be changed in order to 'knock juvenile crime on the head'?

Would you lock them in jail forever? (Very expensive).

Would you give them all a 'good thrashing'? (Shows them that violence is the answer to our problems).

Would you fine all their parents? (What if they are all poor and/or on the dole? Should all their siblings pay the price as well?)

Would you send them all to the gallows and be done with it? (The rest of the world's civilised societies would be a little upset with us).

No, we can only work towards trying to stop this criminal behaviour early in their lives.
Early intervention in disadvantaged families has helped, but the Government needs to throw more money at these initiatives and help stop the problems before it starts.

individual,

Perhaps you should start by examining the sort of society we have constructed for ourselves. A society where organic community involvement has by and large disappeared. We centralise shopping precincts, institutionalise our children from an early age. We no longer have recourse to a social paradigm that allows our youngsters to learn morality in an organic way. There is a huge disconnection between social mores and their delivery.

You can't legislate for decent human interaction where young people learn to value responsibility because its in their interest to do so.

Suse,

Governments throwing money at something has never worked - especially when it's a problem dealing with intrinsic disadvantage. The more complex our society becomes in the modern world, the more useless is the "money throwing" option because it ignores the root causes of the problems.

The laws are all there in relation to crime, it is in the application of those laws. But there are reasons why there is some flexibility within the legal system and why each case should be presented on it's own merits. That is the idea that there are different circumstances that might be applied to similar crimes that affect the application of 'justice' as opposed to just 'law'. It certainly is not a perfect system.

Suse and Poirot have made excellent responses.

The best thing as a society we can do for crime is prevention and that sits firmly around disadvantage. It starts from birth.

How about some Indonesian law enforcement.

Then a few prisons run along their lines would help too.

Dear Individual,

Who can change the law?

The law changes all the time. It changes when judges
make decisions in court. It changes through federal
and state legislature enacting legislation. It changes
with mandatory sentencing for certain offenses.

If you want something changed you need to be specific, and
contact the Australian Law Reform Commission (ALRC), or
the Attorney-General's offices, or your local MP.
Or start up a lobby group and attract media attention.

As for juvenile offenders and harsher sentences? You need to get
hold of "The Law Handbook," for your state, and browse through
the chapters concerning things like - "The Children's Court,"
"Criminal Cases and Young People," and so on. It may open your
eyes to the law and what it entails (court hearings, preparation,
procedure, evidence, Magistrate's findings etc). It's not simple
by any means.

cont'd ...

I would like to add a few more thoughts on the subject
of harsher laws for "tough" kids. We have to be very careful
with how we label our juveniles. Once young people get
the reputation as "troublemakers," and "deviants" breaking
away from that image becomes very difficult. Once they
acquire an image of themselves they select friends who
affirm that self-image. As that self conception becomes more
firmly entrenched, they may also become willing to try new and
more extreme deviances. With their growing alienation comes
freer expressions of disrespect and hostility for
representatives of the legitimate society. This disrespect
increases the community's negativism, perpetuating the
entire process of commitment to deviance.

Therefore, selective perception and labelling - finding,
processing, and punishing some kinds of criminality and not
others - means that visible, poor, non-mobile, outspoken,
undiplomatic "tough" kids will be noticed, whether their actions
are seriosuly delinquent or not. Other kids, who have established
a reputation for being "bright" (even though under-achieving),
disciplined, and involved in respectable activities, who are
mobile, and monied, will be invisible when they deviate from
santioned activities. They'll be allowed to "sow their wild oats,"
perhaps even wider and thicker than their poorer cohorts, but
they'll go unnoticed.

When its time to leave adolescence most will follow the expected
path, settling into the ways of the middle-class, remembering
fondly the delinquent but unnoticed flings of their youth.

The poorer kids and other like them may well turn around as well.
However, it's more likely that their noticeable deviance will have
been so re-inforced by police and the community that their lives
will be effectively channelled into careers consistent with their
adolescent background.

Therefore we need to think twice before making laws any harsher -
and for whom?

The law let's women and others get away with murder of the unborn. We let rebellious defiant kids off without punishment and then are dumb enough to ask why they turn out violent. Parents fail to say no to their children and then wonder why the children don't say no to drugs. We reap what we sow.

It takes governments.
Often on the advice or even request of judges and others.
I am extremely grateful it can not be done by those like you Indy.
Not being sharp with you just honest.
You have constantly informed us of your national service wishes for youth.
And of a problem few others see in todays youth.
Remember that Roman graffiti of Century's ago.
It has always been a failure of the aging, to see youth as lessor to what they had been at that age.
Most if not all, knew how laws change, some need changing.
I see ;little need for concentration camps for youth.

Individual,
In most cases the laws are there and as Pelican said it is the application of the laws that need to be addressed.

For example parents should have the right to physicly discipline children and be made responsible for the childrens actions. One does not need to go overboard with this as Susie implied, but children taught to respect others and others property is a good start to life.

Some laws are not enforced at all. I have been lobbying State ministers for years to get the laws enforced relating to forced marriages and FGM without success. Yet I notice that prosecutions are carried out relating to cockfighting, which makes one wonder what is important. Was told that some have been charged with docking puppies tails which is against the law. So that is more important than the pain and suffering of little girls.

We really need to regularly look at the application of various laws.

I was thinking along the lines of starting with curfews. Another idea would be a Government sponsored pop band drumming out positive message on the streets at night.
If that still doesn't impact then yes half a dozen whacks across the butt. Depending on the result increase either the number or momentum of the whacks.
Then non-military National service with a small salary which could then be handed to victims as some compensation. If positively identified some of the delinquents could be made to work in unsavoury jobs until they realise the impact their action have on all of us.
Another one would be to tell the mongrels they have won the lottery but all their winnings will go towards compensation.
There are many ways of dealing with them but we need to silence the ignorant do-gooder brigade by making them guarantors for those they want to defend or protect from responsibility.

contact the Australian Law Reform Commission
Lexi,
Both Police & Magistrates have told me that the Law Reform Commission simply takes too long. The most direct route is to the Government by way of petition. If I could get two people to support me we could get it brought up in Parliament in the next sitting. Who has the decency to put their name, Tel Nr & address onto a petition ? As I said it only takes three people. I would like some of you to download a form for a petition to her Excellency the Governor General & see for yourself how simple it actually can be to change things.

Individual can I request you look at your last two posts.
I am a campaigner, and would assist in a second if I thought it was any use.
Banjo is quite right, some laws need addressing.
And some should be retracted, the truth, some parents act cruelly in punishing children, and continue no matter what law is in place.
Should never have seen every one stopped from loving a child enough to slap if and when needed.
I take issue, and distance myself, from your theme, you question , yet again.
The DECENCY? of those who do not share your view.
I discount that statement, because it shouts at me.
That maybe you do not know any better.
First of those two posts, seems lost and not sure you truly find it in any way assists in putting your point across.
I do, strongly, think we should toughen up our Courts, stop the idea juveniles have three crimes before they no longer walk out of court.
But see no epidemic of youth crimes.

This is a true story.

In a small country town, a 10-12 year old boy joyrides on a bicycle that isn't his, brings it home. Father makes son take bicycle back to where he found it. Then, to discourage such behaviour, father takes son to local police-station and asks cop to lecture kid, show him lock-up. Instead, cop arrests kid, he ends up in reform school, has minimal contact with his family. Released at age 16, he has no social skills, fights his sister's boyfriend (motive: protect sister), kills him (ie 'reform' school has taught him violence as a solution). Now in jail, he goes crazy, kills himself.

Two young people unnecessarily dead and a family traumatised. No doubt the policeman thought he was knocking juvenile crime on the head.

PS The family is Aboriginal.

Hello Individual,
A couple of points:
First, I wonder about your use of the term 'Do Gooders". I'm going to assume here that you are using the term in its usual sense, i.e. as a perjorative term. Further, if you do intend it as a perjorative term then I'm guessing that you do not consider yourself as a 'do gooder'.
Which leads me to wonder if you consider yourself a 'Do badder'.
Just sayin'...
Second point. The way our society works is quite well understood. Our Parliaments make laws and the various judiciaries, federal and state, exercise them. I'm a little surprised that your high court judge didn't know that.
Now, as to how to change laws, there are a number of ways.
One is to gather a group of like minded citizens and campaign your local MP.
Another is to gather signatures on a petition and mail it to the appropriate member of Parliament, premier or prime minister. The organisation Getup has been quite successful in using this method.
You could start your own political party as Bob Katter has done, although this does tend to be the long way around.
A final point is your assertion that kids are literally getting away with murder.
Really? Do you have any evidence? As the late Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and your assertion is, to say the least, extraordinary.
One final point you might like to consider is that, as we live in a democracy, unless you can bring enough folk around to your point of view, then you may struggle to get laws changed.
But it can be done.
Always assuming, that is, that it should be done.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

You can change the law.

Politicians make law but they are supposed to work for you.
Many of the laws that rule us were proposed by the public, even some of the one that need tweaking or removing in the 21st century.

YOU have to decide how much YOU want the law changed and what YOU are willing to sacrifice to get the job done.

I've spent 3 1/2 years ( changefpa.com.au ) and the cracks are just starting to appear. I may see movement in 5 years.

Democracy is hard work.

Another is to gather signatures on a petition
Antonyve,
That is exactly how particularly ALP pollies try to pull the wool over their constituents' eyes. By Aust Constitutional Law that kind of petition can & does not have to be taken notice of. There is only one way of presenting a petition such as I outlined previously.
A do-gooder is your a-typical academic background people who are against the even slightest discipline and they themselves contribute nothing to the bettering of society. They're always the first to condemn someone who attempts to prevent rather than wait for others to cure anything to do with the result of lack of discipline or punishment.
And yes, juveniles do get away with murder, just watch the news occasionally. Everyone's always on about rehabilitation of perpetrators but what some rehabilitation for victims for a change ?

Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof,
Antonyve,
he was right. I however, am referring to everyday life & the breaking down of our laws. There's nothing extraordinary about that, it's there for anyone who opens their eyes & mind to see. So, no need for extraordinary proof.
When I called the Civil Libertarians & asked them about the rights of victims I was bluntly told "we're not here for them, we're defence lawyers" . Ain't this grand ? Civil Liberties ? Not here for the innocent ? And we're paying for these .......! I do not want my tax dollar to go to them. I want my tax dollar to go to help victims not perpetrators.

individual/quote..""gather signatures on a petition
Antonyve,
That is exactly how particularly ALP pollies try to pull the wool over their constituents' eyes.""

having deliverd many partitions..they dont work
so much effort for so little reward

how laws change is to listen..to what those in power are saying
then to make their case for them..to your own best advantage

do the hard work for them
[they are lazy..need the info to be written for them]

so lobby the man..with facts
with your plan man..getting all that great govt cash..
publish in the m,edia your succes..invite the member to share your glory

petion..mate at best they get deliverd into govt
then ignored

""By Aust Constitutional Law
that kind of petition can & does not have to be taken notice of.""

egsactly right

""There is only one way of presenting a petition""
yep when the media is there..and you got the dirt on our masters
on tape

""people who are against the even slightest discipline"'
dont beat their kids to death

""condemn someone who attempts to prevent""

prevent what
that in your judgment is not permissable to be done?

[who judges where you draw the line?

""juveniles do get away with murder,""

but if your a young punk on the street
yopu KNOW..the cop is watching you

ignoring that blacksuited blackheatred banker
stealing his pension funds

cause he has a lawyer
and all they got is legal aid..to plead guilty..and lie at the mercies if any of the court's..filling our jails with victimless crime

[imprison the poor]..
and give loopholes..to the a holes

""what some rehabilitation for victims for a change?""

excelent point
if govt made fair the damage[to all]
only then..evil cant hurt you...cancel the negative affect

and soon we stop casting blame and slur

peace not pieces

individual,

As a society it would be more productive to examine why so many of our young people have become disconnected from the important anchors that traditionally guide and unite communities. Of course, the easier option is to change the law...but the lock-em-up mentality doesn't seem to have worked in the U.S. which has a huge prison population....usually from the wrong side of the tracks.

ignoring that blacksuited blackheatred banker
stealing his pension funds
uog,
that banker was once a juvenile who's parents weren't allowed to discipline him.
Poirot,
I'm not in favour of prison at all. I'm in favour of making any mongrel who breaks into a home or steals a car etc. spend time in a labour camp working off the damage caused. The more his family contribute towards the restitution the less time he spends in the camp. Just sitting around in prison & learning more refined thieving techniques is definitely not working for the rest of us. No more proof needed. If it's proof you want then proof my suggestion wrong but at least try it first before condemning it.

individual,

All the "proof" in the world is not going to change the fact that if something is rotten in the societal construct then society will suffer from it.
It's not a matter of "them". It's a matter of "us" - how should we live? How do we construct an inclusive society in peacetime? It seems that the only time we all truly pull together is when there is a threat from without.

Why would it surprise you that in an economically fortunate country where prority is given to earning, spending and consuming, where we institutionalise children from the earliest age, where families struggle to even eat together at the same time, that we would have a problem with a disconnected youth.

Yep, chuck the bad eggs in a labour camp. Of course, if their folks can pay more, then they get their sentence commuted...what a grossly inadequate solution to a complex challenge.

As a society it would be more productive to examine why so many of our young people have become disconnected .
Poirot,
that has been done time & time again & time & time again we get the same outcome, lack of discipline ! It may well be that the lock-em up mentality doesn't work in the US but just as the likes of Hasbeen who will confirm that it works very well in Asia. Why, you may well ask. It's because in Asia jails aren't holiday camps as they are here & most western countries. I hate to tell you this but the constant pussy-footing in our system is to our detriment. Get tough on the mongrels & you'll see a reversing of this dreadful trend. Don't blame the youngsters as much as you should blame those who don't accept the practice of discipline.
A mongrel bitch will snap at her pups when they're out of line yet so-called civilised humans think discipline is uncivilised. How uncivilised is that ?

individual,

You really don't get it, do you.

My point is that we as a society are so busy indulging in consumer culture that we have no "time" for our young people. They are simply fed into the system and allowed to trundle along on the conveyor belt. Any society who neglects their youth will soon reap what they sow.

When there is nothing left for a father to pass on to his son or a mother to her daughter. When organic family and community relations are ditched for a time-poor,stunted, and generic upbringing then we are left with the limited option of trying to redress the problem after it has occurred.

Poirot,
I do get your point, a point which has been flogged to the point of pointlessness. Your point is that our society is rotten. Mate, we know that ! I want to get people interested in making a move to change things. I'm working on getting those who can change the Law to change it. Not constantly bleating the obvious. Get three individuals to provide their names & address & phone nr & send a proper constitutional petition to the Governor General. I can't get two more people who aren't so scared as to not being concerned enough to provide their details.
Let's get onto Parliament & bring down the age for juvenile offenders. Change the Law in favour of the victim instead of the perpetrator no matter how young. The damage & cost to the victim does not somehow lessen simply because the offender is young. thirty Grand do not magically become only thirty Dollars because the mongrel who broke in & stole my computers was only 15. His parents are of fairly high standing in the community so why can't they compensate me for their little treasure's activities. I know they'd have a problem with that kind of money & I understand that. What I don't understand is that when his mother tried to get help because she could see he was going off the rails she got no help either from the do-gooders. I feel sorry for her.
The kid was sent to an institution only to return even more qualified in matters stealing. He is now so confident that he is openly taunting the local Sergeant with impunity. That impunity needs seriously looking into & needs to be removed.
Give the victim the benefit of doubt instead of the mongrel. Civil libertarians wake up !

Hi Individual,
Well, I for one would oppose what you are suggesting and would work just as vigorously to prevent you from suceeding.
I flatly disagree with your assessments.
Further I would recommend you to study the ABS data on crime trends, where you will see that crime, especially violent crime, is in fact falling in all capital cities in this country.
I believe that your efforts are misguided and are based on an emotional response to sensationalised - and largely fictitious - media beat ups.
Frantically punishing might make you feel good and righteous, however, there is a mass of data that shows that reductions in crime are a consequence of enlightened social policy.
The fact is you cannot frighten people into behaving the way you want them to. (Leadership 101, or, just ask the Soviets).
On the other hand, let me share with you just one piece of data, well studied and consistent.
When tough abortion laws are introduced to a society, street crime increases dramatically between one and two decades later. This has been shown in many places but the most detailed studies have been carried out in states in the US where abortion laws have been changed making abortion illegal.
The increase in sreet crime is due to the increase in unwanted children growing to be teenagers who have felt unwanted and valueless since birth.
Your solution would be to punish the kids, when enlightened Women's Rights laws would have prevented the problem in the first place.
My point with this example is that cause and effect are not as simple as you are implying.
Before taking action it's useful to understand what's really going on. Knee jerking rarely achieves more than painful knees.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Hi AnthonyV,

I'm having difficulty following some of your reasoning, can you help me out?

1) First, you tell us:
<<CRIME, especially violent crime, IS IN FACT FALLING in all capital cities in this country>>

Yet, a little further along tell us:

<<The INCREASE in sreet crime...>>

So what is it, is crime increasing or decreasing?



2) Shortly before admonishing Individual for thinking he had a "simple" solution you propose the following:

<<The increase in sreet crime is due to the increase in unwanted children growing to be teenagers who have felt unwanted and valueless since birth. Your solution would be to punish the kids, when enlightened Women's Rights laws would have prevented the problem in the first place >>

To my knowledge --and I will allow that I could be wrong --no society has been able to "prevent" crime, street crime or otherwise. But if you are so cocksure you have a solution I'm sure it would be enlightening to hear your expand on how <<enlightened Women's Rights laws would have prevented the problem>> please provide full details!

Cheers!
(PS I know you like your two morning teas, but please go steady on the wines made from Middle-earth Dorwinion grapes, I'm told it's very potent...or, was it the mushrooms from Bamfurlong!)

individual..there is nothing unique in your attacking back at the system that saw a criminal steal from you...[but the thing has been the constant for years]

recall tough love...tough on crime
the war on drug users...mate there are two reasons to go to court

personal injury..[like the theft of ya computers]
in which case you got to the courts..
and lodge a civil claim for damages..!

the other is statute/law
...[applicable to those having special powers,,'under the act]

see if you make any claim for powers under the act
like regestering birth/or transportinmg goods..
or business..booze or marriage

then your subject to the 'act'...
[and any violation of the act..sees you in court]
and subject to the penalties..'under the act'

now you know you got hurt bad
and the kid hasnt learned his lesson
so sue him/her via civil suit for damages

next case please

Hi SPQR,
Just to take one piece of your confusion and dissect it, if you read my comment carefully, i.e. on word at a time, you will see that I specifically say that street crime is falling in this country, i.e. Australia.
In my cause and effect example, I am equally careful to note that the research I'm referring to is in the US.
Please try to keep up. It's not that hard; you simply have to concentrate, instead of trying, (and failing), to be clever.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Hi AnthonyV,

It's hard to credit that your little exemplar about hard love not working, was only about the USA.
<<The fact is you cannot frighten people into behaving the way you want them to.... This has been shown IN MANY PLACES but the most detailed studies have been carried out in states in the US>>

But let's allow that your following sentence:
<< The increase in sreet crime is due to the increase in unwanted children growing to be teenagers who have felt unwanted and valueless since>>
Should have read:
<<The (consequent) increase in street crime in the USA was due to the increase in unwanted children growing to be teenagers who have felt unwanted and valueless since>>

And, just so I am clear, so I haven't misread your <<cause and effect>> scenario. Are you seriously proposing that
<<enlightened Women's Rights laws would have prevented the problem>>

Or, was this just a throw away line for the gallery?

Hi SPQR,
For future reference, is English your first language?
I only ask because you do seem to be struggling with it.
Cheers, Anthony
Http//:www.observationpoint.com.au

Hi AnthonyV,

<<is English your first language?>>

I might have asked you the same question!
Except, on refection, your issues appear to be much deeper than a simple matter of comprehension.

You seem to have great difficulties remembering what you wrote,only a short time ago.
And you seem to struggle when it comes to answering a couple questions.

Cheers

I flatly disagree with your assessments.
Antonyve,
Are you an academic ? you certainly sound like one. Believe one thing, there's no knee jerk reaction involved in my post . It's personal experience & it's not emotional either. Are you in favour of just doing nothing & continue the slide to anarchy ? We are on the slide to anarchy no matter how little you like the fact. The lot that has been in charge thus far is failing the decent citizen abysmally & I for one want to make Law & order an election issue both state & federal. It's been a proven fact that all those warm'n fuzzy academic statistics & studies which supposedly show a decrease in crime are just fairy tales. Go & spend time in a Court room & watch how the Magistrates let the little darlings off the hook because they're governed by an utterly irresponsible legal system. Let's pressure the parliamentarians in taking this issue serious. I just wish the media would come on board as well.

Individual, most of the politicians, in the upper house at least, are academics, so by your' reasoning will never change any laws about youth crime because they are 'do-gooders'!

As a 'do-badder', as someone suggested above, you must be very upset with all the people who do good in the world, academic or not?
It sounds to me like you would be more comfortable in Indonesia?

I think many of the posters on this thread seem to believe that all young people in today's society are a lost cause, because they are too spoiled and were brought up in 'institutions' (I'm assuming that means the dreaded child care centres?).

I don't know very many 'bad' juveniles actually.
I feel quite comfortable with the way this new generation is shaping up.
My parents and grandparents, on the other hand, told me they despaired about what the future held for my generation, as did their own parents.

It's called getting older, more intolerant and more grumpy as the years go by.
I think many posters on this site suffer from this problem...

suzeonline,
thanks for confirming the sad state we're in.

Actually, Suse, I don't personally know any "bad" juveniles either.
My comments regarding institutions and time-poor parenting were in regard to the way our society has arranged itself - merely an observation.

don't personally know any "bad" juveniles either.
Poirot,
May I suggest you buy yourself a lottery ticket because to be that fortunate is indeed having a lot of luck on your side.

Hi Individual,
No, I'm not an academic, although I thank you for the compliment.
I'm just a person who looks for facts before I form an opinion.
Every generation has negative views about the one that will succeed it; that's natural.
Your and my parents would have said similar things about our generation, but we're doing okay.
It's helpful to remember the Red Car syndrome, i.e. when we buya red car we see them everywhere.
Similarly, if we think that kids are bad, sure enough, we'll find ourselves in a world of bad kids.
Personally, I'm a bit more optimistic. I think that by and large kids today are pretty amazing. They have many more challenges to face than we did and most turn out well.
We pretty much find what we look for in life, I reckon.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

We pretty much find what we look for in life, I reckon.
Antonyve,
So ? Does that somehow contribute towards solving the problem with juvenile, unpunished & undeterred by law crime ? It's exactly this mindset we need to work on.

extracted from
http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=8225

He who makes the terms of the contract is he who makes the laws. He who makes the law is sovereign. The contractor is sovereign.

So, that’s the power company contract and the law... Have you got any other contracts, are there any other laws that you’re obliged to obey, any other terms and conditions that might land you in Court if you don‘t abide by them?

What’s that, you say? Only about 60,000+ [thanks, ditti] of the Crown’s statutory laws, rules and regulations, you say?

Yeah, well, guess what? Those are the terms and conditions of the contract you have with the Crown. If you have to obey a law it’s because you’re in a contract.

Are you in a contract with the Crown?

The only way for a contract to become valid and binding (alive) is if someone accepts a benefit that has been offered with a condition.

For example, here’s what doesn’t make a contract binding or come alive.

You don't accept the benefits being offered - no contract exists.

You are coerced/forced into accepting the benefit (i.e. someone concretes over your driveway up to your garage [forcing you to drive over/use/benefit from, the new concrete to park your car] without you ever asking them and they now expect to be paid) -

no contract exists.

One of the parties does not honour their part (or any of their part) of the contract - the contract is void, it dies.