thinker2, a very graceful apology, although unnecessary. It's easy to miss things especially when, as you point out, predispositions exist.

thinker2:"It's more the taxpayer funding their own pay rises instead of business being required to do it. A real job is where your living standards don't go backward while you work."

Yes, this is where Corporates have taken advantage of the social justice system to reduce their costs and hence drive up multi-factor productivity. The other factor masking the flatline in earnings has been that consumer goods have been flooded onto the market as an overflow from China's great jump into the 20th century, which is currently being followed by their rush into the 21st.

Food, fuel and housing have all massively increased in cost over that time, but cars, TVs, computers and clothing have all dropped. Shame we can't eat TVs. I suppose we could live in our cars...

thinker2:"the bulk of middle class and upper income welfare was provided by Howard"

Oh, I competely agree. Howard was a complete dud as a PM and as a Treasurer when he had that gig. The Liberal Party has a lot to be ashamed of in their craven refusal to depose him when they could. Costello forever stands condemned as lacking the guts to take him on. If he hadn't been lucky enough to have Gillard come along so soon after he got booted out he'd be recalled as Australia's worst ever.

However, he did do two positive things: the gun laws and the reforms to the Family Law.

belly, I'm not sure if I like your proposal for penalty rates or not, because I'm not sure whether the numbers stack up. Moreover, I'm not sure that Australia any longer has a 5 day working week except in certain fields. Is it really necessary to be paid extra to work on certain days or times? I worked shifts for some time in my youth and I came to actually prefer to work at night when there were fewer distractions.

Ah Belly, but once again, you see all this from your limited
perception, failing to stand back and see the more objective picture.
I have no doubt that you did lots of good, as a caring and
compassionate union man. But the world is not your black and
white and your one swallow does not make a summer.

I've told you before, WA is the innovative, go ahead state for
good reasons. WA does not believe in wise men from the East, more
like Eastern snakeoil salesmen who hold us back.

I am sure that one or two exist somewhere, but for instance I have
never met a single WA shearer who cared about the AWU. The wide
comb story told it all. WA just went ahead and did what was right.
WA workers largely have attitude and they will do what they see
fit, not what some union man from the East thinks.

I met a women whom I have known for a time, just the other day.
Petite, a mom, she needs some money. So she now does contract
cleaning, fly in fly out, 45 bucks an hour! No need for union
officials to tell her what to do. Good on her, typical West
Australian.

So lets stand back and look at the perception of unions in the
public arena right now. Tens of thousands of passengers stuffed
around by unions, major resource projects held up by unions,
union leaders seemingly living it up on the union credit card,
union leader telling people not to support workers company, unions
throwing their weight around building sites, union leaders throwing
their weight around politics, at the forefront of toppling a PM.

Union thuggery is clearly a tag that fits.

Anti,you from my background construction know as I do 5 day week is as unlikely in that trade as me convincing yabby unions are not all evil.
I have not just ideas but an understanding change is coming and needed in IR.
If I continue posting here it would be only endless negative talk about bad bosses.
To counter yabby limited view that I do not under stand what I am saying.
SORRY YABBY you have no understanding at all!
I wanted to air some truths, leaving changes nothing, for every idiot, on both sides, two honest negotiators, on both sides look for answers.
My childhood, working for farmers while not a teen saw me learn most bosses care about those who work for them.
And yabby would not believe it, I took battling firms in to offices like the one you anti sit in, to meet people like you.
Got them contracts that kick started them, need a bridge maker? solid honest has form up to 5 million contracts finished on time?
My kick back? his workers got fair pay and work.
Do we understand? that action, getting the job, from a bad boss, giving it to a good one, bad boss meant over budget over time, good boss on time on budget, was of use to ? EVERY ONE!
Have fun, but I can no longer contribute to feeding the view a TRADE UNIONIST IS A THUG, even un Australian.
No offense taken yabby but no way I would work for you.

*No offense taken yabby but no way I would work for you.*

Well of course not Belly, for of course you live over there
in an industrial backwater, whilst I live over here in Australia's
leading State, which is keeping the rest of the country afloat.

Plenty of Australians read the papers, watch tv, they can see
the union thuggery that is going on right now.
Just in today's paper, they quote senior Qantas pilots earning
536'000$ per year. The poor downtrodden fellows.

Belly, I see the big picture, you see your little picture of your
life, your activities. I think you have a very kind heart. So
kind in fact, that you probably help the little old lady across
the street, even if she does not want to go there :)

Belly I can't agree with you on penalty rates. I can't imagine why we had to go to extended shopping hours, but we did, so now we have very few in traditional 9 to 5 jobs. It is really only office workers, & not even some of those.

If someone chooses to be a cop, or a hospitality worker, or a bus driver, they know what is going to be required, & one shift should be like any other. That said, I do agree with a special rate for those cursed with rolling shifts, which are so hard to manage.

I ran tourist boats. That is mostly a 7 day, 12 hours job. Sometime it is more. Some in the industry paid a flat daily rate, regardless of length of day, or day of week. Some paid by award, as we did.

None of the staff ever wanted the weekend off. When you spend 12 hours a day trapped on a boat, even in a beautiful place, you can't slip out to buy something at lunch time. You need your time off, when shops are open. As these shops are often a hundred or more kilometers away, that requires week days.

I required a number of crews to man the boats. I could never see why one crew should earn more for 28 hours, [Friday night, Saturday & Sunday], than another crew earned for 55 hours, 7 Am to 6 Pm, Monday to Friday. The crews of other operators, who received the same pay regardless of day, all wanted week days off. If everyone preferred to work the weekend, why should it attract a premium pay level?

That a nurse earns more for 2 shifts, [Saturday & Sunday night shifts] than her colleague does for a weeks work is just ridiculous. Some of these weekend only warriors have so little contact with more senior medical staff, that patient care is suffering.

Thanks Hasbeen and you too yabby, in yabby case it is you, not me that can not see the big picture.
This is it for me,I came hoping for understanding.
That a race to the bottom, reducing the living standards of only some, so firms could prosper.
And that 1 in 5 are unionists, change is some times needed.
In attitudes on both sides.
Questions needed asking, what does Australia, over all want , rich and poor want for others/them selves.
Is there any point in every thing being judged on what other country's pay/ how they live.
Is it ok to grasp the positives in free trade but demand union/workers suffer to propped things we can not save.
Those unionist/workers have fought and died for this country.
Yet yabby you barely except they are Australians in your words.
While grateful, NATION WIDE more good than bad talk to find answers.
I have no intention of continuing to see only my side blamed, have fun, see you in other threads