Well it has to happen please except productivity in the work place too as part of this thread.
I have preached from day one my personal Mantra, Unions there is a difference.
Even some in my much loved Union will wish I would not.
But lets say this, my view was the same as a fresh faced young co delegate all those years ago.
20% of workers are union members.;
SAD but true 20% more are there for the taking, BUT CAN NOT AFFORD THE COST.
20% hear only the bad and will not ever join.
The rest via ACTU wage cases or ability to negotiate for them selves get the benefits of Unions existing.
A Little understood impact on wages is the vast difference paid from one industry to another.
Few know the Western Australian mine explosion, a very long time ago, saw an anti Union firm, recruit dozens of Queenslanders to drive those coal trains, on massive wages for the times.
Or that at a celebration of that line opening, the then deputy prime minister head of the Nationals, openly told those non union workers they did not belong in that wages bracket it was living above their class.
Good on ya Doug, never forgotten never forgiven.

Unions can b a good thing as ther are still some dodgy employers out there, however, so long as the unions strive to protect workers rights, not demand unreasonabe conditions, especially when many employers ar doing it tough.

You would never admit it Belly, I accept your bias :)

But union thuggery is back. Why? Because now they can.
There have been countless examples in the press.

400 Grand a year for the laundry workers on the gas rigs.
120 Grand a year for unskilled building workers working on
Govt sites.
Unlimited cushy deals on the Vic desalination plant site.
etc.

Large companies now simply pass these costs on to the taxpayers
which fund alot of these projects, because its thuggery or else.

But you will try to raise 30 year old issues to justify today's
world.

Next they will be screaming for jobs. Ah well, they only
have themselves to blame. Job creation schemes, that will be
the mantra shortly.

Union thuggery never went away yabby but your bias comes as much from refusal to under stand as fact.
If I was an employer, I have been, I would ask those working for me, unionist or not to use the enterprise bargaining system.
A base platform exists, some fixed rights.
However things within that pool of things can be changed, if they pass the BOOTS test.
Better Of Over all.
Put your self in my shoes, look at it from my view point just for a time.
I time and again, my union too, became an employers safety net! yes a trade union.
True story one of tens, construction contractor, owning a business of about 2 million dollars working on contracts worth 5 million gross.
Rings and requests we visit, based on watching us work on multi union site.
*I want to do an EBA with your union*
He tells the well known story, thugs and mugs loony left fools have even invaded his home/office disgusting comments to his wife.
I even had death threads, because I openly stand still against them on the stump not hiding.
And their members[few Australian workers are radical ] became mine.
I held a meeting, in that bosses home office, he put it up in paid time.
Providing he could speak at the start!
*he asked his workers to stick by him, told them he wanted them to become members of my union*
He bought after my request his wages up 12% to market rates.
On leaving all but 4 of his workers joined, in an hour we had our requests ready.
I took our needs in to his office these are his words.
* me we want 4% a year for three years on top to keep up with industry rates*
He,how many joined you? me gave him numbers,* he no lost my best operators every time I get them trained up, you can have three 5% rises first one now on top of the update.
That put more in his workers pockets than the lunatic union even asked for.

Wouldn't it be great if Unions demanded reducing wages for the highly paid instead of raising those of the lower paid. We'd soon be back on even keel instead of being awash with cheap imports & unemployments at the bow. How can we compete when we're the most expensive ? Why do Australians go to Asia for holiday ? Because it's cheaper. Not very scientific to work out is it ?
I don't give a hoot how little I know about so-called economics according to some experts on OLO. What I do give a hoot about are the bureaucrats, celebrities & other high income people paying a lower tax rate than everyone else. I really believe a flat tax would sort the lazy & incompetent from the rest. Anyone who makes it rich makes it morally rich under a flat tax. Stop paying politicians once they're not in the game anymore.

I thrashing and trashing the trade union movement some conveniently forget only one in five workers are unionist.
And the employers are in unions that use power badly too.
MARKET FORCES some as did the bloke above understand workers with some skills can be are being head hunted, and that poor quality work costs contracts/jobs.
For every firm with union involvement 3 exist,and pay the same rate that are not.
What type of world do we want,could we as China has, set up a free trade zone within our country, import foreign workers paid their home land wages to work 16 hours a day.
Your hand held Ipad was made that way.
Are we all happy with the richest country's America/China/ India also have the very poor and very hungry living within them?
Do some prosper by others failing.
Is wealth creation/ higher living only for some.
COMMUNISM was given birth by such systems..
As a younger stronger man a workmate and I twice a day twice a week unloaded two twenty ton loads of bagged lime on the road one in the morning one after lunch.
We cut each bag open and then emptied and party spread them.
Rushing of to get to a shower burning and in pain.
We did it because we could others too old could not.
My combatants will say it was ok, that we common Laborers got nothing extra for it.
A fact is good bosses out number bad but industrial warfare is a product of some bad bosses some bad workers and some bad unions.
Do not, EVER link me to the left wing filth insulting the history of the trade union movement.

*I time and again, my union too, became an employers safety net! yes a trade union*

That is wonderful Belly, but that is you. Fact is that if a company
is forced to deal with a thug union, the thugs hold all the cards.

That is not negotiation, its standover tactics. Its not about the
poor in China, its about thuggery.

My advice to employers, build your factory somewhere else.

Dear Belly,

What would any of us have done without Unions
in this country. How easily we forget all that
has been achieved for us by them. And there's
still more to be done. It takes a very brave
worker to be able to stand up and negotiate
good working conditions with their employer
all on their own.

Here in Victoria we've just had the announcement
that Two of our major hospitals cannot cope due
to staff shortages and lack of funding in their
emergency departments and on top of that they have
closed down so many beds. And this as a result of
the newly elected Liberal Government.

And this is only the beginning.

I hope this thread is a long one we have much to talk about.
One poster as is his way, has left a steaming heap of the product of the south bound end of a north bound Bull already.
In one mans lifetime, mine, Industrial relations has gone from tough open warfare to negotiating in good faith.
No Halos issued over that table, EBAs are often tainted by lies Union/workers ones, Bosses ones, and media ones.
After being there I can read between the lines, this Quantas one has both sides lie telling.
Know this, two RTA CEO,s one no lessor man than the infamous Max the Axe Max Moore Wilton, came out in the street to say sorry, for lies told at that table.
I want proof, demand it! that a construction laborer earns that money.
But warn some live to work, pay homes in record time work 12 hour days no day of for weeks.
Laundryman on 400.000 come mate prove it!
Listen, hear me, if I ever lie to protect unionism shoot me.
EBA bought in by a labor government is the best thing ever in IR.
In other posts I will talk of real hard proven productivity increases that can and will be won there.
Tell me, if business prices are pegged, in the national interests will that be ok?
No it will not.
How did our next door neighbors become an enemy? what is so wrong with the bloke who mows lawns for a living wanting to have a lifestyle like ours.
How can we avoid talking of bosses who never paid superannuation contributions, and got away with it.
If to save this country unionists need to take a pay cut every one must.

Some people INSIST the ALP and Unions exist for one another.
It is no longer true not always.
But please do not be blind.
Conservatives, see current policy's re baby leave for those on $150.000 a year, are bosses close mates.
Union officials are head hunted for IR jobs in private enterprise.
Ex conservative ministers get start in bosses unions.
Media, all of it,is owned for two things POWER and PRIVILEGE.
Do you see why half truth gets a run EVERY TIME? 400.000 a year for washing cloths, are some silly enought to think that.
No one set of rules can serve every industry.
impacts include, some leave jobs to follow higher wages, skills are not easy to replace.
Low paid jobs bring low impact workers not committed ones.
productivity increases are a must, but not at the expense of worker health, EG bonuses for not taking sick leave equal sick workers at work.
Safety, bonus for no lost time injury's see them hidden and some times real trouble.
I propose true cost cutting with out pain and increases for later in this thread yabby, my case was that union and one of many, my union is a refuge and always will be both workers and bosses
are fleeing them, that feels good to say.
In time to come, nothing to do with one mob media all of it, will have to face its biases and deliberate misinformation.

And this as a result of
the newly elected Liberal Government.
Lexi,
How much was left in coffers when this Govt took over from Labor ?

Dear Individual,

A better question to ask would be - How much did the
Labor government have to spend to clean up the
enormous cut backs and the dire straits that the
Kennett Government left behind. The State was left in
a dreadful mess. Major Public Hospitals especially were hard hit
to the extent that wards were shut down for weeks, shortage
of nursing staff, critical equipment essential for patient care
was run down, no spare parts were provided, and junked
equipment stood in emergency exit corridors for cannibalisation
for spare parts. This comes from an engineering person
responsible for maintenance at a major public hospital.

Under Labor hospitals started to slowly recover until the
state elected a new Liberal Government. Now we are beginning
to see the same early signs that presented themselves under
the previous Liberal Government.

Of course the Grand Prix which costs millions in taxpayer's
money was more important than the health of the general
population. It was meant to expire at the end of the original
contract - but it appears that the new Government intends to
maintain it at an ever increasing annual loss.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/laundry-staff-can-earn-more-than-420k-a-year-on-offshore-construction-projects/story-e6frf7l6-1226027779689

There you go Belly. Now say sorry for being wrong yet once again :)

Methinks that you don't have the foggiest about what is going
on in Western Australia, where union thuggery is once again with us.

They are not all like Lexi's library union lol.

http://www.news.com.au/business/oil-rig-workers-on-2000-a-day-as-mining-execs-warn-of-high-wages/story-e6frfm1i-1225936903076

More union greed for you, Belly. But as your Paul Howe is quoted as
saying, they make no apologies, if they can get it they will.

So my advice is sound. Unless its a resource project with potential
rewards, run for your life from Australian unions and invest where
these people don't operate.

You watch, Qantas will go down. The airlines shares are at give away
prices. Best that the unions buy it with workers super fund money
and then they can show us how to actually run a company, or lose
all the super fund money as workers send themselves broke.

Meantime Jetstar etc will make money in Asia, saving present
shareholders a little bit of their losses.

Lexi,
Looks I hope you're comfortable with defending incompetence. I know I wouldn't be.

Lexi we all know that Melbourne is the largest Greek city, outside of Greece, but that doesn't mean you have to contract the Greek disease.

Yes you had it under Kirner you got very close to going broke, with the huge public service bleeding the state dry. You should be grateful that Kennett pulled you out of the mess that usual Labor management had got you into.

Without him Melbourne, & the state were heading for bankruptcy. A state, or a country can only pay itself much more than it earns for so long. Sooner or later you end up where Greece is now.

I would suggest you hang onto your hat, the Greece problem is not solved, & I doubt it will be. It is likely to project the EU into complete turmoil, & there is little chance that we will avoid the tsunami that will follow.

Right now a great deal of your hospitals, schools & welfare bill is being payed for by Queensland & WA mining income. That's fine, while we have it, we are all Ozzies, but that income is likely to falter if/when China's exports are damaged.

Much as it might not be a nice outcome, I will be surprised if we are still shoving hearts, lungs & livers into people because we can, in the very near future, at least on the public purse. We might be lucky to get a broken arm fixed soon. The cut backs you are seeing now could very easily be child's play compared to how tight the public spend may have to be if Greece, & the EU fail.

In the near future people will probably have to chose between spending half a million on every boat person, or giving a local a needed operation. That's when the stuff is really going to hit the fan.

"400 Grand a year for the laundry workers on the gas rigs.
120 Grand a year for unskilled building workers working on Govt sites."

Really? I find that a bit difficult to believe.

In any case, an employer will only pay a worker a dollar if he expects to get more than that dollar back. The wages paid in the mining industry for example, are a combination of labour supply-and-demand plus the massive profits involved. I'm sure they would love to replace all their local workers with cheaper foreign imports if they could.

The reasons that Unions were created in the first place is still there. We aren't living in some "enlightened era" where employers have suddenly become welfare representatives.

Yabby it is you not me that is wrong, for the sake of reality ask that paper to prove its lies.
EXAMPLE, woman died on highway, reaching over the back seat to comfort baby at 100klm per hour.
Road straight surface good no potholes.
Story next morning, pot holed highway kills again!
Description of road way 37 kilometers further north given, police quoted, MANUFACTURED QUOTE she may have swerved to miss pot hole.
IT HAPPENED.
On entering a room to start negotiating the person opposite may well be as hard as they come.
Yabby has the view it is union officials ranting and raving a child like thought.
A verbal trashing may be handed out a threat to reduce numbers if wages go too high or even take the jobs off shore, RARELY.
Fact is markets rule.
If work is short wage rises will be small.
If it is workers who are in short suplie it will be bosses offering higher wages.
I remind posters of this.
TWO sides sit at that table, the idea 1 in 5 workers control wages is? silly!
Now if your worker wants $400.000 to wash cloths, and if you fear union thugs enough to pay it.
I offer you this, send for me, hide under your desk! pay me to be your back bone.
If I can not cut I work for free.
I am waiting to see my first unionist armed with an ak47!
Individual! if you continue to post such rubbish except my view you are unwell.

link me to the left wing filth
Belly,
No-one does but you keep defending them ?

http://www.amma.org.au/home/home/media_publications/publications.html#ReportsPapers

Belly, the article was based on AMMA information, as was the article
in the Australian. Read some of the reports on their website,
their members employ 170'000 workers and their expertise is
industrial relations in the mining industry.

In this case, they have credibility and expertise in the field,
you do not.

Building LNG plants etc is not like building a road. It is a highly
complex jigsaw, with billions of $ of investment involved. One small
piece of the jigsaw can bring the whole lot to a stop, so one little
obstinate union can use time and delay after delay to bring everything
to a halt.

There is no free bargaining. The union has the monopoly and its
members can't be sacked. That gives it the liberty to be an obstinate
thug, if it wishes.

No wonder these companies are sourcing more and more from offshore.

The reported comment from Howe said it all. They make no apologies,
they are out for whatever they can get.

This is not about what is fair and just, its about who can screw
whom and how. Now they can seemingly use the Fair Work act to do it.

Given what is going on in the NW, why would any overseas think of
investing in manufacturing in Australia? For everyone can see
the thuggery going on, which was my point all along.

Yabby,

ALIA - Australian Library and Information Association
is not a Union - unfortunately. Therefore your reference
to "Lexi's Library Unions," is not correct. Just thought
you should know.

Yabby you quote a union to insult a union, that group is a union for its members.
You too, selected a link that, in its own content, plays word games.
It gave both a figure that COULD BE EARNED and a lessor one that is earned.
Let us look at how many work around our country in total, in this industry.
Would it be 2.000. maybe 1.000 or more likely less than 500.
Why did the bosses agree, did the union enter the room armed? did they hold hostages.
Are you aware, UNDER CURRENT LAW! a union can only with draw its workers/strike ONLY for safety reasons, or during wage negotiation periods.
That if one side or the other is NOT NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH.
One side or the other can ask for an independent resolution.
So what thuggery was involved?
Haliburton, last Vs President of the USA heavily involved, during Howard leadership.
Bough nonunion Laborers to South Australia, paid $40 a day!
is that ok.
You will note I reply to your posts disagree, feel you are unfair, but respond.
Individual is not like that, uninformed biased and bigoted yes informed no.
1 in 5 to blame for high wages??
Bosses union is ok workers no?
Now you will again turn it in to an insult but my union always wore the left wing insult Australia's Weakest Union because forever and always we are the best.
The one bosses flock to for protection from the thugs.
Wages next post but are you aware of the working poor of America, is that something we should pursue?
Is it ok to let a boss sell his product but control workers wanting to sell their only product time and effort for a fair price.
Is being in a union bad if you are a worker ok if a boss.

Really? I find that a bit difficult to believe.
Wobbles,
May I suggest you take holidays in remote areas of Australia & see where your tax Dollar goes ? You'll think twice who you're going to vote for at the next election, that I guarantee you.
Council CEO's & their mates are costing you an average of half a million a year in pay & travel expenses. Then there are all the other Govt. agencies & let me tell you the Govt. thinks along the same lines here as some OLOers. Do you know that just about every service is now being contracted out by Govt. ? Rather than say, pay a local electrician $65/hr they fly in, accommodate & fly him back again because he only charges $55/hr. They can say they got a cheaper electrician. The local electrician meanwhile is screaming for work.

QUANTAS both sides
I have grounds to know, not think what is taking place, both sides do not wish us to know the whole story.
QUANTAS once a government owned firm was championed world wide for its safe record.
After the first world wide fuel price hikes a long while ago, it still lead in safe conduct.
Facing profit cuts airlines not from here, got to share their customer base paying far less wages and over heads.
Not too long ago Quantas began looking at expanding in to other country's and ,to compete it paid less wages to those country's workers, often useing them in our country.
Repair and such became a way cuts could be made, one owned subsidy has true concerns far worse than them with safe flying.
Now more international than Australian it is following international business habit.
Bringing in an over seas manager, rewards doing the dirty work,,to make the changes then leave taking the blame.
QUANTAS wants to increase its servicing over seas to use more workers from other country's for less pay.
The Unions fighting with a well known tactic
It notifies a strike then,at the last second calls it off, no strike action but same results, I support them.
I value air safe practice and Australian jobs.
Quantas will win, we will not, Australia that is.
A result will be a less safe airline less ours more profitable.
And a least couple of tragic events one for sure, here in Australia.

Belly,

The maintenance side of aviation is a high cost area and management, not only that of QANTAS, will do their best to minimise this cost.

Many airlines send their aircraft to locations for major maintenance where labour costs are lower. Maintenance procedures tend to be fixed by law so it leaves labour costs as the only area where management can make a reduction.

This is not a new phenomenon and has been a constant sore point with most aviation organisations here and overseas.

That there are side effects there is no doubt.

There does not appear to be a solution that will satisfy all parties and I doubt there ever will be. The whys and wherefores are very complex and are constantly changing with the advances in technology.

Interesting thread Belly. Keep it going.

Take it easy.

SD

Belly, people in business have competition. Not so for unions.
So you are comparing apples with spinach.

Yes indeed, the 420k quoted is for working 4 weeks on, two weeks
off, quite common in mining. If they work 3 weeks on, 3 weeks off,
they "only" earn around the 300 and something mark, the poor
laundry guys.

The thing is, are unions there to do what is fair and just, or
are they out for all that they can get. Clearly their officials
admit to the latter, they want all that they can get and make
no apologies. So don't give me this nonsense about sticking up
for the downtrodden. Union greed is there, backed by the Govt.

As to airlines, last time I checked Singapore Airlines were quite
safe, so were Emirates. If our boys want to be thugs, well let
other airlines dominate, ours will go the way of Ansett, whose staff
also never imagined in could go broke. They learned the hard way.

Yabby,

The demise of Ansett was caused by a multitude of factors, wages was just one part of it.

Aviation is a complex business and it usually takes more than one issue to bring a company down.

Take it easy.

SD

Shaggy, I fully agree with you. I used to deal with Ansett every
week, what a mob of arrogant sods, living in the past.

The thing is, the world is changing, we live in the past or adapt.
Some businesses in Australia will adapt, the rest will just have
to die and learn the hard way. Going back to the 60-70s as
some of the thug unions are trying to do, is doomed to failure.

But people clearly need more pain to learn. So be it.

Yabby,

I feel there are changes afoot that will dictate some very big changes in Australia as a whole.

I agree the rampant unionism of the past is a goner, there may still be pockets of it, and they are possibly needed still, but the changes we will see in Oz will go beyond unionism, carbon taxes, poker machines and such like.

Our politicians of all stripes have no control over the country's future, in part due to incompetence, and a total lack of vision, as a result I feel our direction will be dictated elsewhere. There is too much change happening around us for us to be able to continue in the good old Australian way even if we want too.

There are some interesting times ahead and some of them will be not so good.

Take it easy.

SD

Union strength and miss used power from the period 1950 till 1980 died at the time EBA and reform started by a labor government commenced.
The very union I target is trying, as hard as it can, to change.
Yes IR is going to be totally different, already is.
Sorry, as an ex union official, not happy to say this, that subsidy mentioned above will have a tragic even because costs are more important than people.
1 in 5 yabby gee are you sure the problem is unions?
Wages , safety net, things work choices took away must stay.
But using EBA is the future.
And trade off can be of benefit to both sides.
Cut wages if you want to cut productivity, and skills, if you want the class of workers to drop.
Market forces do rule.
Is it understood unemployment is feared if it drops below 5%?
See then workers are free to work in other jobs, it is fact unemployment of lower figures is seen to threaten.
Police officers, long term ones left to go coal mining in the 90,s to chase big money.
NSW bust workers fly in fly out to WA to earn more.
Wages need not be blamed for every failure.
Right now, as informed folk knew long ago, Manufacturing is bad, maybe dieing.
If wages is the only or main reason, then to fix it we would need to drop them to about $4 an hour.
And the wages of those producing the products that manufacturing uses, see the end results?
If the general workforce one day had such a reduction in wages/living standards we would all suffer.
Yabby 1 unionist in every 5 workers are you mate fair dinkum?
If you shot every one of us would wages drop over night.
Is it worth while sending kids to work for nothing to replace us??

Enterprise Bargaining Agreement,EBA, Trade off in the workplace.
Complex but stay with me.
No two work places are unlike, for this idea we talk of one with twenty employees working an average of 25 hours a week over time.
Explanation of penalty rates, an extra payment paid at a higher rate to compensate for more time spent away from home and family some over time is restricted by the boss because of costs.
Please note some workers require it and select jobs that include it to work there.
A LIMITED AMOUNT IS CONSIDERED AS A fair AMOUNT no further definition has been able to be found.
Workers fear too much.
For this plan the boss wants to have a single rate of pay all hours worked.
I as negotiator put this on table [that is how it works] for discussion.
One firm promise no over time above last 5 five years annual gross average will be included in any scheme, that will be negotiated about if contemplated, as old over time rates at all double time.
2 workers who work the overtime in the past to be paid an annualized salary based on past hours.
Those who reject over time not to be asked to work it.
After firm says no way I introduce another idea you tell me what it is.
remember the union thuggery is myth no boss sitting opposite me will say ok I am Santa Belly take my car too.

no control over the country's future, in part due to incompetence, and a total lack of vision,
Shaggy Dog,
Yes & not only the politicians but the whole education system & the media & last but not least the Judiciary.

Dear Individual,

I was watching "Insight," the other evening and listening
to many young people expressing their views on politics.
One young Liberal supporter stated that he was from
Queensland and he found it very frustrating that many
Liberal supporters in that state and within the party
were so anti education, especially tertiary edication
and anything to do with academia and academics. He found
it extremely puzzling and as a young educated person,
frustrating - why all this anti-feeling and mistrust.
He found it quite frankly off-putting - and discouraging.
They were losing many young competent people as a result of
these attitudes. I thought of you as I listened to this
young man. I wonder why. Interesting.

Lexi,

When I was young I cannot say I knew many people with a tertiary education. They just weren't about. Many occupations that now require a degree did not have that requirement.

Whilst a great percentage of the population now has a tertiary education it cannot be said that the country has progressed in many areas. The violence that exists today was not apparent back then nor was the selfishness of many Australians that is very obvious today.

Maybe this is where the distrust of education comes from. I am not making any cause for or against but our now relatively well educated and affluent society may have lost some of its humanity along the way.

The civilisation that supposedly comes with education obviously covers us with a very thin veneer.

Just some thoughts in response to your post.

Take it easy.

SD

Dear Shaggy Dog,

Education gets blamed for a multitude of sins.
I'm not sure though that it's always valid.
As we know any advancement involves taking risks
and hard work - but it's usually worth it.
Values and norms usually come from our parents, family,
and the social context to which we are exposed.

Violence in our society could result from various
causes - involving broken families, drug abuse,
alcohol abuse, poor education, and unemployment.
Often much of this appears random, mindless,and the
reasons offered by the perpetrators often run along
the lines of "He started it," "Or he bashed me first."

Moreover, many of these people see no reason to adopt
to society's values, for society offers them nothing:
they get no nearer to affluence or success than what
they see on their TV set; whose repressed rage and even
self-hate erupts against those around them.

The young man I was referring to in my previous post
genuinely wanted to make a positive contribution to
the political party of his choice - but was being
prevented from doing so by narrow minded people
within the ranks. Which to him was discouraging.

Belly, you seem to miss the point entirely.

Its not about 1 in 5 workers, its about attitude and power.
If you were an overseas investor, thinking of investing in
Australian manufacturing, and you hear the top union officials
make it clear that they are out for all that they can get,
those same people are involved with the top of Govt, what
would you think?

Not what is fair and reasonable, but what can we screw out
of the system. At the same time we see union power thrown
around, right now. No cattle loaded yesterday, wharfies
on strike in the north. Flights cancelled in Perth, more
militant unions throwing their weight around.

I spoke to a truckie the other day, who does the NW run.
He tells me the boys in the North now want 90 bucks an
hour, because the rig workers managed to screw the system,
so they can too. In the end it affects the whole economy.

You should read the business pages more often, to see
what business thinks of the present situation.

Short term unions will get away with it. Long term its going
to cost heaps of jobs. It won't be me that is affected, but other
peoples children. They will be complaining about jobs and
why they arn't there. So be it, they clearly need more pain
to understand how the world works.

At the end of the day, things work best when business and the
workforce combine for mutual benefit. With union leaders
calling for all that they can get, business will react
accordingly. But it will happen quietly, they will simply
go elsewhere and they will have good reason to have done so.

Keep digging minerals, the rest is a waste of time in Aus.

Lexi,

Interesting comment.

I think when we are young we often see our seniors as narrow minded. I certainly did. Fortunately youth is not an incurable disease.

My experience over the years is at odds with some of your comments on background being cause of many of our social failings today.

If someone wants enough they will achieve even if it is at a relatively simple level. I suspect many today do not want enough and are not willing to put themselves out to achieve in any real way. No need.

I also appreciate sometimes ones luck runs out and a helping hand is needed. I have been there and hopefully I have reciprocated over the years.

I guess one can never really comment with any surety unless you have walked in anothers shoes but we can try to understand where they are coming from.

I think we have taken Bellys topic off track. Best we return.

Take it easy.

SD

From my own experience lately , I am owed money by my previous employer, that I recently left for greener pastures. It is unclear that I will ever receive my remuneration.

From my new compatriots I have learned that my new employer also does not like to pay. And getting paid specifically for your productivity, is the most difficult too extract, apparently. I am yet to find this out having only completed my second week.

My sister in a different industry recently had to attend a 4 week vigil beside her son's hospital bed, (he was critical after a car accident), she now owes her employer holiday pay in a sort of reverse in-lieau situation he has applied, even though she has worked for this employer for 15 years without a days compassionate or bereavement leave. Something she is fully entitled too according too her award.

My grandson told me today about his "commission only job" in which he made 4 sales over the last 2 weeks and now no longer has the job, ( I didn't ask why ?), and he will not be paid anything in his understanding. After travelling 14 days into the CBD and back at his own expense by public transport.

Now does this sound like the Australian way of life we know and believe in ?.

No it doesn't and it isn't, and these sorts of practices are now rife, in Australian small and medium businesses across the land from my own experience in retail sales. It doesn't matter what the unfair individual contract says that most employees have been basically forced accept to retain their positions. And the end of the day no one in Gov't is policing what little rights left that exist in the workplace for the individual today

And therefore unions become relevant again, but in todays politically and economically distorted Australia, collective action is only fashionably done during protests or elections, and never in the industrial arena. Heaven forbid a fair deal for Australian working people today, is thought negative for business and the economy, and portrayed as such by our leadership and the commentariat.

Economic voodoo I say. The notion of the trickle down effect is the all time, most bogus of economic myths ever invented.

As for Wages/Unions/Workplaces Belly, I think it's a shambles today with most working people out of pocket, facing uncertainty and rising artificial inflation in the essential services area. I use fuel as an example. The fuel pricing yoyo we see is the preferred business model of the distributors, not related too the tax element, or the actual cost.

It is out of control and doing a productive days work won't fix it. Incentive ?, gone with the Aussie way of life.

Lexi,
i watched the same TV show & that young chap didn't say what you're quoting. He said he found many in the party being anti-intellectual not anti education. There's no comparison between an educated person & an intellectual. Educated people are part of the back bone of a society whereas intellectuals are largely ineffectuals & not part of the back bone but rather the unpleasant end of the digestive system.

yabby as always I like you, but you are not letting truth get in the way of a form of bigotry.
Let us look backward for a time.
The birth of Unions and why they came about.
Both bad behavior of SOME UNIONS today, and the idea that workers should be used and disposed of [still alive in some] came from.
England at the start of the industrial revolution called them serfs.
Near property of the Lords and Lady's,they lived on land owned by them farmed first for them and are not fail to take the hat of and hold it over their heart in the presents of them.
TODPUDDLE MARTERS find a link read about the dreadful crime they committed,wanting better!
Industrial Revelation, steam power bought serfs in to town, children 7 years of age into coal mines to work till death.
Do not avoid this truth, great pain/miss use of/even death and suffering followed.
Still! it was thought workers, considered as property, could be used then thrown away.
OH we say! BELLY WAKE UP ITS OLD HISTORY!
Read now the History of the coal Fields dispute in the Hunter valley NSW.
My spelling may be wrong but it is the Rothbury Riot.
Find it read it, see the single tin of camp pie for a family at Christmas.
Here how a Judge ruled in favor of the owner of that mine,INFAMOUSLY!
See how that judge ,dog still today! inherited those mines! on the death of his benefactor.
If you care about truth see to the police, sent into bash and flog intimidate even the wives of those miners.
Read about the Rothbery riot then the birth place of Australian Unions, Eureka stockade!
All union propaganda?
Do we understand the impacts of these actions, the power and thinking of bad bosses and big capital gave birth not only to unions but things like communism.
Socialism, And in time, for a time, bought down then now returning class system.

I want, staying in the past talk of the first world war.
To focus on its impacts even today on unions/workers/bosses.
The world British Empire no less than any other was still a place that saw under classes as property.
Queen Victoria had spread her family influence to every Royal family in Europe, we still lived in a world that was tribal/patriotic and loyal to its tribal leaders in this case Royalty.
In a family feud we saw millions die needlessly and heedlessly in the hands of upper class twits who knew nothing of what they did.
And placed more value on a painting in their rich home than those troops.

The aftermath broke down the British class system, in part, and planted two seeds.
Unionism a wish to share a better life,infected some times with radicalism communism,and a dream of one world, a system workers them selves today, reject.
And power and privilege, still has the wish to control and the ability to get those it wants to control to join its fight.
As in every thing,time changes.
Reality is today we have not got to the end of evolution of industrial relations.
OH yes radicals, on both sides will say I am wrong, but no I am not.
Problems exist,
Do we want it for humanity or just our country.
Greed rules still, those dragging us down, on every side, care little for fairness.
So are we ok with a forever under class?
Look hard at America Europe China India Russia.
Has the road to wealth got to be paved with the body's of more and more true poor? truly neglected.
The future must be better,is the answer truly reducing workers wages and living conditions.
Is it truly grabbing the straws of one union one group 1 in 5 workers and defaming the whole.
Will reducing the wages be good for every one?
Who consumes if we can not?
One day we can talk about a world that sees as it truly is today increasing understanding between bosses and workers and true progress can be made.

Belly,
Those two posts are indeed a fact that no-one can deny. We also can't deny that we now have a couple of hundred years of hindsight. We also can't deny that with all the hindsight at our fingertips many people still can't see. The unions made vital contribution until the 1970's when the wheels of the bandwagon really really started to fall off.
We now arrived at a situation where the ALP hierarchy has evolved into an academic, bureaucratic yuppy club which, when looked at closely, is no different from the landlords of old Mother England. Just look at how condescending academics treat the man on the street. As if we had no brains at all because we're not "educated in University" yet it's them who are utterly devoid of common sense & pragmatism. How many academics do you know who can sell their skills & make a living not from taxpayer's money ? 99% of academia is not in private enterprise & for good reason, they have nothing of value to sell. It's them who now make up the bulk of the ALP. As I said before L(ost) A (cacademics) B(lowing) O(thers) R(evenue). Another fact that can't be denied.
Belly I'm fully aware that you only had the good for the worker in mind but I'm afraid you have been hoodwinked by the intellectuals.

*Let us look backward for a time*

That is exactly the problem, Belly. Some old fellas tell me that
we should not buy German or Japanese products, because of what they
did during the war. Should I agree? Or should I learn from the
past and deal with the reality of now?

Yes, Australia inherited all sorts of bad things from Britain.
But the British empire collapsed, remember. All those strikes in
the shipyards did not solve anything, ship building moved to
Korea, where its thriving now.

I've met old people who just can't get over a lover who jilted them.
The world will move on, with or without them.

Greed exists all through society, amongst the rich and poor. See how
many people think that the world owes them a living. All they really
are is greedy, too lazy to get off their own arses.

Some unions need to take note that the Luddites were wrong and
going back to the past is doomed to failure and does not justify
union thuggery today, for all Australians will otherwise lose,
just like happened in the British shipyards.

Win-win outcomes is what its all about these days.

There is a new class divide, between the skilled and unskilled.
If you are a young kid who is great with IT, the world is your
oyster and you'll earn 6 figures. If all you know is how to flip
burgers, don't blame the world for your own failings of not bothering
to educate yourself in some skill.

If unions did something useful it would be to help young people
gain skills in whatever field they have an aptitude for. For that
is what the future is all about. People ignore it at their peril.

Indi,

Fair comment.

It would appear to me to be a trend from both camps with quite a few politicians having no commercial background at all. No proven success in management, just a degree, an over sized ego and the ability to blather on under almost any circumstance.

The truly honest and capable pollies and union reps, obviously a bit thin on the ground these days, must squirm at the machinations of their fellows.

Like Belly I hate injustice but I do respect ability. A bit less of the former and more of the latter could only be a good thing from those who make decisions that impact our lives.

The country does appear to be almost devoid of sound, honest leadership from virtually all quarters.

Take it easy.

SD

I too Belly am a student of history and am fully aware the world over of horrific examples of treatment of working people and their family's by their employers.

I also grasp the concept of enterprise and it's importance in the creation of wealth etc, it is the spreading of the wealth with which I have a problem.

This previously mentioned knowledge of history does colour my viewpoints I guess, but time and time again history shows that given too much power or lack of regulations, business takes too much and gives to little. Therefore regulations are required in order to temper this inherent behaviour in order that a lowest common denominator effect does not occur, with business constantly pushing for reductions in people's working conditions.

The other front that big business is constantly working upon is the abrogation of their responsibility to society as a whole, attempting to reduce or diffuse blame for the environmental consequences of their actions, is the best current example of this.

So therefore and to conclude: people today need representation more than ever and in our case our politicians are no longer providing it. Unions need to understand this new relevance and must act accordingly by first bolstering their memberships even if that requires a divorce from the Labor Party.

As for the other side of Australian politics, they have never represented the people and have always been the willing lapdogs of their big business masters and they dutifully toe the line as we speak from the opposition benches today for a bone in Gov't.

The crossing of Ken Henry over to the board of a major bank, shows you how much of a revolving door the jobs for the boys are, between Gov't and Business in Australia today.

And shows how little input into the outcomes of the future the man on the street will really have, unless people find a collective voice in some way.

I could post one hundred posts and still not feel I had done justice to the thread.
Shaggy Dog I forgot to welcome you, welcome know mate we wander in every thread and it belongs to no man I enjoy all views.
Individual that is the first post I ever saw from you I admire.
History is important it made today what it is.
I CHALLENGE UNIONISM on behalf of those unions exist for in these next posts.
We are served by two political party's, and a sprinkling of others.
Unions have too many representing too few.
Hight membership costs to support too many is an anti union thing born and bred in the union movement.
I think/want/beg for LESS UNIONS, ONE IN FACT.
Why so many branch secretary's? so many offices.
What respect for members funds is shown by not being business like?
One national union.
Many internal sections, for every worker, keep the white collar things posing as unions separate but one voice for workers.
My next statement COMES FROM MY LOVE FOR THE ALP!
UNIONS MUST cut formal ties with our child THE ALP those ties do not deliver to workers the truth is our power is being miss used.
If at election time we unionists, could talk to both sides we may just find conservatives hostility weakened.
The power of 2 million trade unionists was never ours never unions.
Howard won every election bar the last from our members votes.
One union one voice one ideal work in the best interests of our membership.
Examine my next post those who say unions went bad in the 1970s.
You are quite wrong it was the accord ALP/UNIONS that started reforms that give us much today.

Halos are not issued with hard hats,
I could/will one day tell you about bad workers.
You will nor read about bad bosses but every one has a story about us unionists, after all we came from un wed parents all of us.
Before work choices a boss told me to leave his job site or he would kill me.
Well he was unaware the main construction giant had whispered in my ear.
Have a look a\t HIM, IF YOU CAN PROVE IT WE WILL GET RID OF HIM.
His WORKERS near slaves, all from out side this country got $300 a week, for 90 hours.
He paid no super charged for rent and threatened them with being sent home.
They went home ,with every cent owed them, not one was a unionist I never asked them to join.
Want to know of A THOUSAND SUCH STORY'S.
How about the bosses who pay no super even today, for workers who have years of service.
See the tax office fail to even try to fix it.
Seen dad 22 years service sacked in a country town because his teen age daughter stopped dating the bosses son.
Unions are evil bosses saints.
See the pain and impacts of single mums being recruited activly to push trolley back to the store for $5 cash in hand AND WARNED you will be dobbed in to the dole office if you complain.
What will be the result of cutting wages but not goods and service prices.
Back to my statement re too many unions, health services union is not alone.
Too many forget why unions exist,too many voices saying too many things.
The power of 2 million unionists is in todays politics in the hands and voices of just a few chattering away in words workers do not wish to hear.
And those who think that like unions both good and awful can be found both sides of the fence, to them thank you.

Dear Sahggy Dog,

I was merely quoting from a young person's experiences
with the Liberal Party in Queensland. And as you
probab ly should be aware there are certain people,
especially older people - who think they're on the
right path, and that's allright - however the problem
that becomes hard to deal with is when they're convinced
that theirs is the only right path. That was the point
that the young man was trying to make.

Dear Individual,

Perhaps you didn't watch the entire show. Because the
young man made it quite clear when he referred to
the Queensland mob being against - "academics," and
"academia." Maybe you missed that part.

cont'd...

Dear Shaggy Dog,

My apologies for the typo. I didn't mean to
mis-spell your moniker. Mea Culpa.

*The crossing of Ken Henry over to the board of a major bank, shows you how much of a revolving door the jobs for the boys are, between Gov't and Business in Australia today.*

This is exactly the problem, Thinker 2. ie your attitude. Them and
us. Its what caused all our problems in the first place.

Corporations are simply pieces of paper. They are run by people
just like you or me, who go to the toilet and wipe their bums,
just like you or me. Corporations are simply a structure for allowing
many people to achieve things together. Today, with 1.3 trillion$
in Super, they are largely owned by workers, even if many are not
aware of it.

Why on earth should Henry not sit on the board of a bank? He
understands economics, would understang banking and would know
his way around political circles. All these are things that
a board member would be valued for.

Healthy banks are vital for all Australians. If they were on
the edge of going broke, THEN we would have a problem.

So corporations are part of our lives. There is no them and us.

Its time that you moved on and accepted a changing world.

50 years ago is history

Lexi,

Re Sahggy Dog.

I have been called worse.

In regard the thoughts of youth I can look back and see how my thinking has changed over the years.

Despite an unpleasant childhood my politics as a young man lay somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan.

The years have moderated those leanings substantially.

Despite all the whinging that goes on these days we do live in a lucky country. I somehow feel that rather than substantial change we should look to a consolidation of our core values which do appear to be on the wane. Maybe change once this is accomplished.

Change should never be made for the sake of change itself. It must have a recognised and real benefit.

Enough from me on this topic. I shall retire from the field and leave it to Belly and others.

Take it easy.

SD

Dear Shaggy Dog,

Thank You for your honesty and for responding
to my posts. We have quite a bit in common.
I too was raised by an extremely conservative
family - and my views have changed over the years -
but in many aspects - I am still basically rather
conservative in many areas.
I agree we do live in a lucky country.
And I count my blessings every day.

Take Care and All The Best.

Yabby, like you I ran a small business.
Employed 5 rather proud they and every one got every cent owed.
Except me, it was a $20.000 not paid bill, from a customer,that closed me down.
You try not to value the past, and ignore today.
A special blindness that locks out the very real gains both sides continue to make.
Norway, Sweden, the old West Germany, have employers, insisting , on unions/worker union delegates, sitting on their boards.
Australian union delegates in Norway owned Aluminum plants , are sent, invitation not thuggery, to Norway to see how it works there.
The present is just the start, the future is in progress toward negotiating EBA not stand over .
An understanding is demanded, high wages in some industry's are not union gains but bosses offering it, to get the best.
By the way, I agree that bloke earns his job, he replaced lessor men, we in everything should want the best.

Let us now look at one shop, a shop is a union term for an industry/workplace/single firm.
This one is concerned about its manufacturing section.
Union delegates and their officials have been called to meet both managers and major share holders.
They are told this* we are in trouble, we are not competing with imports we have some work but need to cut costs*
Union ok fair enough we have seen the early signs what have you in mind.
*Well if we cut wages by 6% and in put costs we can try to keep the place going, in return we will not cut jobs*
After the talks have been going for a while it is settled.
Workers want the job some suppliers want the business so cut in put costs.
Say product is made by another in the trade,who see,s this and says ok.
Short term I will cut my prices by ten percent.
Who wins?
The company's name? AUSTRALIAN MANUFACTURING.
Next step?
Do we see work sent over seas to stay afloat?
Do we take advantage of free trade that works for us but fight that that harms us.
Is cutting wages, even imprisoning every trade unionist going to make one bit of difference?

"academics,"
Lexi,
Aren't these the very people who like to describe themselves as intellectual ? What do they have to do with education ? I thought they just sit around tables & dream up things like political correctness & don't discipline children regulations. I have yet to hear of an intellectual making a useful contribution to enhance our daily lives.

Lexi,

No, my childhood was far from conservative. Unconventional maybe by todays standards.

Parental influence was not part of the mix from a very early age.

Take it easy.

SD

*You try not to value the past, and ignore today.
A special blindness that locks out the very real gains both sides continue to make.*

Belly I am ignoring nothing and telling you how it is, right
here in Australia, today. With labor back in power, union
thuggery is returning. Not eveywhere yet, but I would not be
surprised if its just the start. Power corrupts.

Look at large projects like the Victorian water plant costing
billions. A few unions control the whole thing, any company
that tenders will have to comply to their wishes. They can
turn any project into a frigging nightmare if they wish.

As all companies are affected, they all include the extra costs
in their tender, Victorian taxpayers like Lexi will get screwed
without even noticing. She'll just cough up and know nothing
about it.

The same thing happened in Perth with the new hospital. Sorry,
but IMHO building unions are thugs. We see the same tricks in
the NW, 30 blokes, like wharfies, holding up projects where
thousands are employed.

In the end this all works its way back to the rest of the economy,
next inflation will increase and then the reserve bank will
have no choice but to push up interest rates to bring inflation
back under control. I've seen it all happen before, when I had
to pay 18% interest at the time. Don't think it won't happen
again.

Its time that Australia benchmarked its wages and many bells and
whistles with other Western countries, to see how we stand and how
competitive we are with other first world economies. I think
you'd get a shock.

Your argument about 3 $ an hour is simplistic. Based on that logic,
we'd be better off paying everyone 300$ an hour and the economy
would be booming. So what do you think would happen, if we did that?

Dear Individual,

The progressive Enlightenment thinkers would argue
that ignorance is the major cause of unpleasant, or
even criminal disconnects between people.
The lack of exposure to
education leads to narrow-mindedness, and, worse, to an
"us-them" divide.

Ignorance is one determinant of behaviour.
It does not account for every aspect of human behavious.
For example, it doesn't accout for self-interest.
But it is important to recognise that - for yet
unexplained reasons - in any population of people there is
likely to be a proportion of very self-interested people,
as well as a majority of people who are capable of seeing
the wisdom of living by the golden rule of co-operation and
reciprocity. It is necessary to recognise that there are
people for whom greed comes to supplant other human attributes
and aspirations.

As for the great thinkers of our time and those of
the past - all I can suggest to you is a visit to your
local library. I would not want to embarrass you by
trying to teach you anything on this forum.

Cheers.

Ignorance is one determinant of behaviour.
Lexi,
you're right with that one. We get them every year on account of their certificates over our competent local people. Yet who shows them everything they should know ? The local uneducated that's who. Then after about 12 months they can't handle it anymore & they realise they can't keep pretending they understand so they resign & the next intellectual moves in. It's like a conveyor belt of incompetent people with a lot of certificates & no ability whatsoever. Mind you, despite the fact that are actually a handicap to the efficient workforce they get paid a lot more & benefits to boot. Ignorance does pay if you have incompetent bureaucrats for bosses.

Lexi,

I wasn't going to post anymore on this topic but I have read some of Indis and your more recent comments so I thought I would join in again.

I have like Indi worked with people who had a tertiary education but lacked totally when it came to common sense. The situations he describes are quite common.

I come from a trades background leaving school when I was 15yo. The trade I chose was very technical with a very high level of study with all subjects having a 75% pass mark. The study being on going as the years rolled by.

I did finally get around to tertiary studies and was surprised how easy it was as compared to my trade experience. Maybe the practicality, discipline and high study level of my trade made this so.

We are but vessels that can contain knowledge to various degrees, formal education is fine but it still comes down to the individual and his/her ability to use this knowledge. I know a reasonable number of supposedly uneducated people who would knock many academics into a cocked hat with their depth of knowledge, vision and wisdom. Formal education is but the icing on the cake, if its a lousy cake no icing in the world will save it.

Just my thoughts.

Take it easy.

SD

Yabby you are become strident in your claims, in truth I wanted to head in another direction this morning, you call for my attention to your comments.
Your information on that project comes from media.
And yes, no! my ex workmates can read or leave! the construction union is still thugs and mugs!
BUT, what power, how is it used, why do bosses fold, read todays Australian, see IR expert once involved with one of our TRUE RADICAL unions.
See one of our once Australian,now international construction giants now haveing?
My ex union branch secretary as its IR man.
You different things than me, I see increasing consultation.
I talk of the impending death of radical unions you talk of them being the whole.
You brand LABOR as nearly unclean!
Yet I from the heart of both seek modernization and consultation.
You paint a picture but have no answers for your shadowy horror story's.
Yabby if in business today, if your workers HAD NO STRIKE RIGHTS unless wage negotiation time or safety issues, IF PENALTY'S EXIST that could bankrupt wild cat strikes, why would you bend to unfair demands?

I have not seen any one in this thread who has not agreed the early days of unions did good.
Few would not be aware false Gods, Socialism, and Communism, came to life in those days.
Looking back they, a product of poor handling and treatment of whole classes of people failed too.
No path to equality, some still, wrongly, think they are.
A leveling took place, every one became poor, no need existed to be better to stand out.
Those best worker/slave in the tractor factory this month, still saw the wheels fall of after the tractor drove out the door and the worker hungry that night.
And it saw too, the wives of the leaders/manipulators who, using the power of millions of workers built their nests and controlled the shambles on the workers backs.
Living it up!

CAPITALISM, we see it as the only system so far that lets us hope, rewards effort,and brings improvement.
And in this country we have in part, Socialism hand in hand with it.
We do.
Just compare our health education transport so very much, unemployment benefits with AMERICAS.
Now we know, or should, we fail too, that we are not perfect.
But how do we confront the very different natures of our trading partners.
We can not forever consider surely that wealth creation for some is good others evil.
Or that we reward * it was said over the weekend a salary of 15 million dollars has a bonus of that much again* a year?
But say our system is dieing because in our view workers earn too much!

Dear Shaggy Dog,

Individual is a horse of a different colour.
We've covered this topic so many times in the past.

I've told him time and time
again - that a higher credential simply often means higher
earnings because of the value job markets place on it.
The fact is that the skills required to get an A grade in
a college or university course on anatomy or educational
philosophy are not the same as the skills needed to deal
with a medical emergency or an unruly high school class.

The schools and colleges teach very little (other than basic
literacy and numeracy) that is directly relelvant to the world
of work. Most people pick up the necessary skills on the job,
not in the classroom, and the characteristics that make for a
successful career (such as initiative, leadership, drive,
negotiating sbility, willingness to take risks, and
persuasiveness) are not even taught in the schools. It seems
that the schools produce graduates with any number of educational
credentials but not with few specifically job-related skills.

In fact, millions of people never put the specific content of
their college or university edication to direct use in their
jobs, and nearly half of the country's graduates actually work
in fields they consider unrelated to their major subjects.

However to be anti-anthing to do with a college or university
education is simply showing one's bias and there's nothing more
to be said.

See you on another thread.

BTW:

I started my career as a Library Technician - having
done a TAFE course first - then I went on to get my tertiary
qualifications. So I know exactly what you're talking about.
On the job experience counts for a great deal - but when
you combine both on the job experience with tertiary
qualifications - that's the best of both worlds.

Lexi,

Yeah I am still doing a bit of Post Grad study to help prevent the gray matter from turning to sludge.

My field was Aviation Engineering where I ended up in senior management roles as the years went by.

I am retired now but remain gainfully employed, keeping off the streets and out of trouble.

Take it easy.

SD

Belly, I've read the articles in the Australian and to me it highlights
where the problem really exists. As the lady says,
in union school they teach you to be confrontational and to knock
employers senseless, with all sorts of tactics.

Her answer is that employers should toughen up. Let me tell you
something about business. Employees can make or break a company
with their attitude. Today's business environment is extremely
tough, with very small margins. If management is any good, they
are focussing on those business strategies, on global challenges
and on how that business will still exist in 10 years.

Companies need staff which are on their side, not spending their
days being confronational. If they haven't got that, they might
as well close down and invest the money in places where people
actually appreciate having a job.

Perhaps they need to start changing the way in which they train
union officials, for all that confrontational teaching will
otherwise close down company after company.

If Qantas unions think that they will achieve job security by
holding strike after strike, they are going to learn the hard way.
Qantas will shut down those routes which lose money, focus on
Jetstar and other offshore operations which do make money and
become a shadow of its former self in Australia. Then we'll hear wails of
protest by the increasing numbers of Australians who lose their
jobs. Why don't they teach them at union school, that shooting
yourself in the foot lands up with a damaged foot.

I have told you before Belly, the future is not about them and
us, as your unions teach, its about all of us being in it together.
Australian unions have a lot to learn, it seems.

Yabby,

Ref QANTAS. Sadly I think you are right, strikes are not going to solve the problem nor is anything else I have read so far on the issue.

The profits and possibly survival will be in these overseas and budget operations.

It is more a matter of minimising damage to those Australians employed by QANTAS as the changes take effect.

It will end up in tears no doubt.

Take it easy.

SD

Yabby horses for courses the multi hundreds of hours training I under took was far different.
I understood the link before sending you there.
QUANTAS, remember my information strike action is only possible now, during wage negotiations?
Are you aware AT SUCH TIMES both sides have wanted well planned out comes in mind?
And both have fall back positions.
Such saw the rise of one Robert[Bob] Lee Hawk.
He at a time both sides had a need for away out, found one.
Do you and SD not see here a last stand, an attempt by both sides to break the other.
And that once wages have been set this has been the last chance ,for both sides to achieve WHAT?
QUANTAS wants to send repairs and servicing over seas to use cheaper over seas flight attendants and pilots too, cut costs, cut Australian influence and as a result safe practice.
UNIONS
want to stop as much of that as they can, keep Australian jobs, highlight at a time costs are being cut the Axe wielding CEO is to get a $5 million bonus.
What say QUANTAS gets its every wish.
Who gains
Is this then the answer for every Australian firm.
$5 million pay rise?
On what basis is that ok but fighting for Australian jobs wrong.
Are bosses unions such as farmers ones ,even trying to change our country's FOREIGN POLICY'S ok.
Why are unionists any different than you, who puts a price on your product/work?

An understanding of the above issue is called for.
The 3 unions involved are not going to win.
They understand this.
They may save something for a time,they hope to do this.
Knowing as unions do, those effected most, the Australian public/flying customers, who it will affect the most ARE AS ALWAYS against them.
They a smaller combatants will always, pick a time that gives them a better chance, peak traveling times.
My evil, almost unclean to some, union brothers are not always driven only by self interest.
See ACTU fighting for those who are not members low income case we fight for them.
Is it our ties to Labor, then why not bosses unions ties to conservatives.
Is the 1 in 5 holding our country back, from what, starting the circle again?
That bloke at the other end of the bar sinking a few after a hard day, is he anti Australian because he is a unionist?
You,all, have got to know me, I have been proud to tell you of my membership of both the ALP, and My great union.
And of my pride forever at being once an official liked by my members and haveing more true mates on the other side than enemy's.
Nothing special about me, only this, despite my age.
I was and am tomorrows unionist not yesterdays.
Will take a shower now being proud to be unionist has me feeling dirty! like &^% it does.

*It is more a matter of minimising damage to those Australians employed by QANTAS as the changes take effect.*

Shaggy, yes I agree with you. If the unions had brains, they
would have to think along those lines too. IMHO all they are
achieving is doing more damage to their own future security.
But let them learn the hard way at yet another company.

I gather that a whole lot of planes have been ordered, but
not for Qantas, but for subsidary airlines which can actually
make money.

I used to have quite a few dealings with Qantas cargo and the
confrontational attitude between staff and management was
already clear then. To be fair, IMHO both sides were wrong,
that sort of approach does not lead to an efficient company.
Its also why I avoided buying Qantas shares when they floated,
now those mums and dads who did, have lost their shirts.
What a waste all round.

*Why are unionists any different than you, who puts a price on your product/work?*

Lol Belly, I'll tell you who put the price on farmers
work, overseas markets do. Do you think they pay double time
and a half for weekend work etc? If unionists were exposed
to the market forces that farmers are exposed to, they would
survive for about 5 minutes.

I don't think you'll ever get your mind around the CEO pay
issue, I used to think differently but it does in fact make
perfect sense. Corporate CEOs are in fact employees. As you'll
notice on OLO by posters comments, a large number of posters
think that coporations only exist for the benefit of workers
and customers, never mind the people who risk their hard earned
savings to provide the capital.

Finding a few people who have a vision for the future, can
grow the business and who actually care about shareholders too,
and not just feather their own nests, is difficult indeed.
Boards often get it wrong. Billions of shareholders money
depend on that handful of people. So it makes perfect
sense to find just who you want, reward them like entrepreneurs,
and align their interests with shareholder interests.

What they pay Joyce doesent matter on the bottom line. Even if
he worked for free, it would work to less then 20$ a week per
employee. What he decides, how he implements it, is critical.

Somebody has to actually think of shareholders and that is how
shareholders do it.

Is he the right man for the job? I really don't know, I've never
met the guy, so I could not pass an informed opinion.

Your union girl made it quite clear what was taught at union
school, Belly. She was clearly higher up in the hierarchy then
yourself, so perhaps knows more about it then you do.

Yabby,

I was an indentured apprentice with QANTAS way back. I was still a callow youth when the first Boeing 707 arrived. Showing my age.

Possibly some of the best training on the planet. It stood me in good stead for the rest of my time in aviation which included TAA, Ansett and the RFDS.

I watch with interest the current problems being experienced by QANTAS. I can appreciate both sides but cannot see a solution that will satisfy all parties.

Maybe the management of QANTAS and the unions should contract some members of the OLO Forum as advisers as there does appear to be a number who do seem to have the solutions for most everything.

Take it easy.

SD

*as there does appear to be a number who do seem to have the solutions for most everything.*

Lol Shaggy, perhaps OLO should be called the old farts opinion club :)

I think that most have long ago stopped trying to change the world,
but that does not mean that they don't have opinions about how
it all works.

There are in fact some very smart posters on OLO and I usually enjoy
reading their gems and often learn something.

Then there are plenty of friendly posters too. Belly and I actually
get on quite well and would no doubt enjoy having a beer together.
On this issue however, we just agree to disagree. Fair enough.

Yabby,

Said very much tongue in cheek!

I used to have a very black and white view of the world but it has become progressively more gray as time has gone by. Along with the colour of my hair.

Good discussion is great and I enjoy it without a doubt. I spent quite some time in locations where there was no TV and little other entertainment and discussion, for the sake of a better name, over a few beers was the prime form of entertainment.

I do fear it is fast fading as a form of entertainment.

Take it easy.

SD

Yabby/shaggy dog, not long ago I stood in the rain with unionists involved in the longest single Aviation dispute.
Over 200 days, Shaggy are you aware the fact the very training you rightfully talk of can not longer be had, that those standards died .
Yabby one thing if we ever meet, you will not tell me I am an old fart,bet on it.
Now you two, are you aware the Lady Rechtub, sorry yabby quotes.
Came from the very union, ex COMMUNIST not so sure they are not still, that won those wages yabby is unhappy with.
Time and again I say communist unions taint the whole.
From by the way SD my first day at full time work till to day this country bloke never left a job that the boss did not ask me to stay, except my walk out on a lessor man in my union job.
Read again your defamation of working class Australians who happen to be in unions.
And be grateful, good people exist on both sides and the future is not the blind silliness you two hurl around.
One job I never had was in taxidermy,I some times regret that.

I am not sure it is worth continuing the discussion .
But a few things need saying and asking.
If we ban unions will we prosper, will all workers be treated fairly.
In a world increasingly competing with one another is it a race to the bottom.
Is that bottom a place we want to live in.
How do we confront differences in living standards in country's.
Do we only feed the ones we need.
While half our country fear over population the other half want us to increase both migration and imported workers.
Unions , just as any group have opinions.
Apple growers wanted to put ALL OUR international trade in danger, yet no one hates them for that.
The National party was once country party, and why not, but why the anti union trash.
Is every good thing, our very lifestyles bought about by unions to be forgotten?
If penalty rates became outlawed no longer paid would bosses soon after schedule 10 or 12 hour days on weekends.
Forgive me, I thought I was an Aussie knock about bloke, one who helped any one long past it starting to hurt.
And am proud my ex bosses are my mates.
But, not changing it one bit I am a grub, see I will die thinking fair go mate still means something.

*Yabby one thing if we ever meet, you will not tell me I am an old fart,bet on it.*

Thats ok Belly. I'm in my late 50s and consider myself an old
fart. But kid yourself if you please :)

I seem to recall the 200 day airline dispute. You guys were up
against Hawke. The result was a near bankrupting of much of
the Queensland tourism industry, not much else if I can recall
it correctly.

Belly at some point you blokes are going to have to accept that
Qantas won't keep flying planes at a loss. Every route has to pay,
or you close it down if you can't reduce costs or increase revenue.

The old days are gone, Qantas and staff either accept the real world
today, or the whole lot will go broke. Preserving the profitable
bits and closing down the unprofitable bits, as is being suggested
now, makes perfect sense to me, painfull as it might be for some.

Qantas were trading at $1.45 the other day, so the airline is worth
a fraction of its former self. Its time for action. Sell the
Qantas brand to the employees, so they can wear the losses of their
actions, or start benchmarking. What do they pay pilots, engineers
hosties etc, in New York, Paris, London, Amsterdam, and another
20 first world countries? Under what conditions, lurks and perks?

Take an average of those and that is pretty close to what our locals
should be paid.

Thuggery can't win, its as simple as that and right now the Qantas
employees are doing their best to scare away Qantas customers. They
will be the ultimate losers.

Onya Belly,

Been a union member and in later years encouraged my staff to join.

Responsible unionism is a very good thing.

The QANTAS problem goes way beyond unionism. Overpaid CEOs aside QANTAS management has some real hard decisions to make as do its staff. The halcyon days of QANTAS being a Rolls Royce carrier are virtually unsustainable in todays competitive market.

The board would be better flogging the airline and investing the money in the housing market or even a fixed term deposit. The shareholders would get a greater return on their investment.

The whole world is a very different place as compared to the times when I graced the hangars at Mascot.

Take it easy.

SD

Yabby your ignoring the fundamentals when you say workers wouldn't last when exposed to market forces. Of course workers are choosing not to take the risks, choosing not to speculate for the profits side of the business. And the risk should never be the domain of an employee and is the sole domain of the business person.

Business people choose to accept responsibility to speculate for the personal wealth that this speculation can produce. Therefore it is not relevant too suggest that workers should be expected to carry the burden of risk. Business people should factor in certainty for employees into their business model if it is loyalty and excellence they expect, from them.

The Qantas dispute illustrates the confrontational industrial environment left by changes to industrial law by the Howard Gov't. The Union had to call off it's strike today due to having too wait for legal advice from the white collar end of town still returning from it's long lunch last friday.

Qantas endowed with excessive power in a dispute, is encouraged, to lockout their employees and accuse them of the resulting disruption, invent death threats with a unrelated bogus letter and try to link it to the Union, indulge in public misinformation campaigns, pretend publicly to be negotiate when not actually doing so, and finally try to make the Union responsible for the damage to the brand.

Alan Joyce after granting himself a annual increase of 70% can hardly not negotiate with his employees over an increase approximately the rate of inflation over the next 3 years.

Accepting a smaller gain himself or giving back his bonuses may be sufficient to fund the requests of his employees and protect the brand. Maybe he could stop advocating offshore processing for airplanes at presumably cheaper, and possibly less safe locations and guarantee to employ Australians to do this as was traditionally the case, in order that safety be preserved to protect the brand.

cont---

Unions today in Australia are existing in an anti-union industrial environment designed to frustrate any collective attempt to participate in a business. Prior to the attack dogs on the wharves Australia's industrial environment had major improvements and productivity gains through co-operation between unions and business.

It was only at the political and ideological behest of the Howard Gov't that our direction changed, confrontation with unions served it's political purposes. Much in the same formulae way that children overboard did, or weapons of mass destruction etc. Talk up that bad side and claim to be the solution.

Exactly the same thing Tony Abbott does now except he's an even more extreme version with a knack for talking up the down side.

*And the risk should never be the domain of an employee and is the sole domain of the business person.*

I have news for you Thinker 2, about how the world works. One of
the largest groups of shareholders in Australia are actually
grey nomads, who saved all their lives and are now enjoying their
retirement. Hardly business people.

If a company isn't making a profit, there is no company, there
are no jobs. That is the reality of it.

If Qantas employees decide to destroy their own company, so be it.
People will simply fly Singapore Airlines or Emirates. Just ask
Ansett employees about what happened to their jobs.

that a higher credential simply often means higher
earnings because of the value job markets place on it.
Lexi,
Yes of course for jobs which require a comprehension of academic level education. Trouble here is that a society can't function on academic education alone. The whole gist here is that there many trades which benefit nothing whatsoever from academic eduction. It's pragmatism that is needed, pragmatism builds things we want & need. Academia on its own provides nothing. Academic education is merely a step to the pedestal not the top of it.
Just look at the social engineers, they're academic & look where they got us ? Academia is meant to be a tool not a finished product.

Remember my claim? Unions there is a difference?
Remember in this thread I spoke of planned strikes being removed, called off at a time they still impacted.
Have you seen my remarks based on truth strikes can ONLY TAKE PLACE during wage negotiations?
Let us look, at that lady I told you about yesterday.
Yabby picked her up by the scruff of the neck and hurled her back at me! fun stuff!
History lesson, 1963, Painters and dockers, not just in Victoria, A Union America would be proud of, like all water side unions, a MAFIA hiding under the words COMMUNISM/UNION.
Along with a radical PMG [do we all know John Howard while just a minister broke them] Communist without doubt.
These filth, together,went on to even stop mail going to troops in Vietnam!
So I at that time delegate to the AWU on a road construction site first came to see such Ba%$#dry was low.
Move on, murders prison a lot more started the Patrick Stevedoring clash.
Few would not have agreed with me,this was not unionism, waterfront unions, Marine Workers union, oil rigs, hurt the term union.
But it was the dogs, and the masks, we got, all unions did, involved in feeding the strikers and after threats picketing for them.
The unfairness won the day, unions did see an extraordinary thing!
water front workers began working!no you say! yes it shocked me too!
While we picketed for them.
Comrade Maritime workers Union,while on strike! took our few members in the Tassy straight oil rigs!
Solidarity brothers!
It became clear change must come, tactics like lies fear stand over would not do painters and dockers failed.

I come from Australia's GREATEST UNION we cover from the sheering sheds to open cut mines we always have and will be of our birth place the bush.
We are targeted Australia's Weakest Union, AWU, by the comrades and those blindly following them.
Was it 1993?
A riot no other description took place, busses went to Canberra to tell John Howard we did not like him very much.
Radical rats, loony Lefty's,and committed COMMUNISTS still committed today after its death, rioted.
MOST THERE hated them for it.
It is those half wits who bought about a defamation that lives still of the whole movement.
Today, those self indulgent fools , are trying to become mainstream.
Change, even telling bosses they once threatened, hear this! to rape! they are different now.
That lady is from such.
She sold her beliefs,WRONG I AGREE, for cash.
Her union, forgive me bloke,I speak to a hero of mine he knows who he is,like a wet dog trying to dry off is rubbing up against my union.
While leaving a very few crumbs/members for us.
It wants what it can not have! our good name!
A fact yabby, less than 2000 out there, yes they get extraordinary pay, once brutal force set the standards, todays law will not allowed that to happen judge me and my union on the workers who are valued by bosses never had a second on strike and just use me as insurance.
And bargainer
PS 66 two hard hits and thats me, but can not run so must stand and bit of a sticky beak do not want to be left wondering your shout.

Belly, for you its all very interesting, which unions are which
and all the details. The general public arn't interested. Unions
are unions, if one or two are troublemakers, it affects all unions.
Live with it.

The managements of Singapore Airlines, Emirates etc, would be
chuckling away highly bemused, watching all this Qantas story unfold.
For eventually they will be the big winners, not Australians.

Now we even have Australian unions telling customers not to buy
Qantas tickets but to buy tickets from other airlines.

Today Qantas is worth no more then one of BHPs Queensland coalmines.
Value is already destroyed.

Qantas lost 200m$ on international routes, that can't continue. Its
cheaper to shut those routes down and get rid of the staff.

So its all very sad really. Australians destroying an Australian
company, overseas companies laughing all the way to the cash
register. Why? Because some Australians are obstinate and
won't deal with today's reality, desperately trying to cling to
the past. Its true. People need pain to learn, for some insist
on learning the hard way, time and time again.

Dear Belly,

I've just come across this website - and thought that
you may be interested in reading something positive
for a change. So, here tis:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/10/10/labor-governs-like-their-job

Lexi thanks, the written word can deceive if it looks like I am upset it is wrong.
Yabby, you know we have got on mostly and no intention of insulting you.
I truly understand and think you know little about the subject.
And do not wish to.
You actually rant here!
A STORY SO VERY BAD, ABOUT BOSSES, some bosses, no less than some unions EXISTS.
a union is a social activist thing too.
I broke union rules to help non members.
I gave cash hand outs to single mums and never saw them or it again after boss did not pay on pay day.
We gave, each of us, weekly donation direct from our pay to helicopter rescue services.
Pooled a few hundred each then bought a prize and raffled it, to help a kid within cancer or mum with the same.
The future, for this I am Happy, is not in people like you.
IT IS BARGAINING IN GOOD FAITH from both sides.
It is now more like that than not.
I am forced to remember my unions roots came from bush workers victims of the SQUATTER class, who wanted to re live the British Lords /serf life.
A future awaits not one of us can know, if we are to revert to the idea profit can only come by reducing workers standards of living ?
You, based on your comments would not care.

I heard an interesting interview this morning, on the radio. IIRC,
the fellow was a journalist from the West Australian who is following
the Qantas dispute and is able to present a bit of an objective
viewpoint.

He says that Australia has a population of 22 million, the rest of
Asia 4 billion, so it makes perfect sense for Qantas to seek growth
in Asia. But growth is in no frills airlines, consumers are voting
with their wallets.

According to him, Qantas international pilots are earning around
100'000 to 150'000$ a year more then American pilots. Clearly
passengers are not more prepared to pay so much extra for Qantas
flights, then for other flights. So you can't build a no frills
airline on those kind of huge salaries. Today the airline business
is international, times have changed.

He mentioned that Ansett baggage handlers insisted on being paid
more then any university professor.

More and more of what I'm reading suggests that Qantas is going
down the same path as Ansett.

That will be another proud notch for the union movement, another
disaster for Australia. Belly, your unions have lots to learn
about the real world, they really do.

Belly, I see many great qualities in you. I think that you
are a man of integrity and a man of great compassion, all things
to be very proud of. Good on you, be proud.

But at times I also see a man who wears his heart on his
sleeve and sometimes cannot face the realities of this world.
It does not go away when we wish it would. Farming taught me
how to deal with reality. If it doesen't rain, it doesent rain.
We have to accept it and find solutions, not dream of how
nice it would be, if it was raining.

Qantas staff are some of the most highly paid in the country.
They are not struggling, they are not battling. Don't
confuse where you invest your emotions, for the sake of
good old tribalism. But I know, your football team,
your party and your union, are all part of your tribe.

The Australian airline industry has to face the new reality,
or it will simply become a memory, as so many other Australian
industries have done in the past. The tears will come,
when the whole thing collapses, as Ansett staff learned
the hard way. I hope that Qantas are not next, but that
is up to their employees really.

Yabby,

Cost of labour aside.

The location of QANTAS in Australia is now a strike against efficiency. Not a problem in times of yore but with all the activity in Asian region QANTAS is now on the end of the piece of string when it should have its hub in the centre of activity to work to maximum effect.

Few operations locate the main base in the boonies which is effectively where QANTAS is now is from a business point of view. I know many Australians do not like the thought of Australia as a backwater location but we have become so over time.

Some very clever decisions need to be made by those involved.

Take it easy.

SD

Yabby all these imported Quasi American ideologies and social /economic theorems have distorted the Australian way of life. The trickle down effect I mentioned before, that no one has addressed is the one where you let the rich get richer and everyone lives better. It is a myth.

Why shouldn't business have a goal of creating secure jobs for their employee's ?.

What is it that compels Australian businesses to seek too create uncertainty for their employee's, and seek to diminish rights in the workplace under the banner of flexibility.

The law encourages this bottom feeder behaviour. And the economics are flawed.

The U.S, the most spectacularly failed democratic economy in the world has been running on such ideologies since the end of the 2nd World War. And look where it's got them.

Australia has always been a unique position and in my opinion not comparable to the world situation. Our economy currently is the envy of the world, our small population, specific environment, and isolation are unique, but our domestic conditions worsen for it's people, our living standards deteriorate, because we no longer have any structural, in law or actual power too affect our own future. The corporations control everything.

If the Gov't decides that it wants international mining giants to pay more tax, they just have a multi-million dollar advertising campaign touting misinformation and complete lies in league with their partners in media mogul-dom.

A farming example would be mention gas frakking at this point. Expect a Corporation to march onto your property Yabby, if it is in one of their target regions. Ironically the only political party that would support your rights to object in that situation would be the Greens. (lol)

All of these corporate decisions (not just paper entities Yabby) affecting our future go largely without restraint. Company's (particularly miners) ignore the environmental obligations of their licences (as has been the the subject of recent news), frequently, without Gov't doing something about this in most cases.

The link I'm providing is an example of when this gets too late.

http://www.theage.com.au/environment/fishermen-breaking-out-in-boils-20111004-1l6x0.html

This is Qld specific in a Melbourne newspaper, you don't get this sort of news in Qld because the Murdoch Press controls all of your print media.

All of this out of control Corporate behaviour directly affects our future. Collective action may in the end be the only way even for farmers Yabby, to get justice and our children get a future in our unique and wonderful country, fast disappearing.

Unions/Associations of all colours may again become relevant but only changes in law can restore power to the people.

Shaggy, you are quite correct. The thing is, management has to
think about the next 20 years and make sure that the company will
stil exist. Sadly some of the unions are still dreaming about the
past. Jetstar in fact has its hub in Singapore and is making
good money. That is why Qantas management want to grow that model,
servicing 4 billion people in Asia. They can't do that out of
Sydney.

Thinker 2, disposable incomes for low and middle income earners
actually increased dramatically between 2000 and 2010 in real terms.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1370.0.55.001~2011~Main%20Features~Household%20economic%20wellbeing~18

The old Australian way that you dream of, collapsed when the merino
sheep collapsed, which bankrolled everything for decades. Australia
started facing a new reality when Keating made his banana republic
statement and he was right.

Australia has now joined the rest of the world. If you want a company
to exist just for the benefit of its members, then form
a coop. They exist, I am a member of one.

But if I save my pennies and eventually invest in a corporation,
whilst you blow your earnings say at the pokies, you can't then
turn around and say that my savings should be invested, just to give
you a job. For that is what you are saying.

If you want security, go and work for the Govt. They have the monopoly
and can waste taxpayers money to provide it for you.

If you work for a company, your job is as secure as their orders
and the health of that company. As they exist in a competitive market
they have no guarantees about the future, so why should you have one.

If Qantas can't sell tickets as they are too expensive, there will
be no Qantas. Just as there is no more Ansett

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/unions-split-over-qantas-war-as-paul-howes-warns-strikers/story-fn59noo3-1226164346308
This link fills me with pride.
UNIONS THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
How often have I said that?
Howes, make no mistake, is a giant of my union.
He like his mentor, and like him a hero of mine, Bill Shorten rode a very hard horse.
My PROUD AWU during an amalgamation that nearly killed it.
At times, both, had to take paths some would not agree with, but the end result?
AWU Lives still as it always did,with pride.
I thank you yabby, for your praise, but please know, this thread see,s me grab myself by the scruff of my own neck.
Then drag myself in then out of a well used pig pen.
Not every unionist agrees with me, but I see promise in the true path of future unions.
I am not serving my unions retired members YET it , one branch, serves under a tag not the AWU,brand I will not serve under yesterdays brand.
I am told unions want in the end,to kill Quantas, can you then justify that wage rise.
Friends, in internal flights in this country, please consider.
A drop in servicing standards is going to kill dreadful thing to say?
Would it be worse to know but not say it?
We, this country, once had thousands of shaggy dogs well trained and skilled we now export those jobs so why train.

I could, with pride go on for another hundred posts.
About my pride in taking part in Eric Lees international union campaigning.
The support I give for some, and those I see as may be not quite worthy.
But to what end?
We will not see the passion and dislike for cooperate crimes, for rewards for down sizing workers.
For overnight planned bankrupts that steal workers wages.
SOLIDARITY, do we understand with the Polish spelling of that name how some turned from union haters over night?
SOLIDARITY a union, with a Popes help bought down the slave master Soviet Union, now there is a union to hate.
I am waiting to send to Iran my discust at its intended flogging of that poor lady!
For making a film!
Need to watch us unionists!
Never know what we may get up to.
PS
self inflicted pain again but my LOVE for my AWU begs me to say lets get together in a state with 3 branches.

Thinker2:"This is Qld specific in a Melbourne newspaper, you don't get this sort of news in Qld because the Murdoch Press controls all of your print media."

Oh, really?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/toxic-harbour-fish-fears/story-e6freoof-1226145338037

It seems you haven't really been looking very hard.

I do tend to agree with your dislike of corporatism as a social force, but I suspect I have some more substantial reasons.

My main reason is that Corporations persist far beyond the lifespan of humans, while possessing under the law many of the rights that apply to people. They can be considered, in their own right, to be "legal persons", with an identity separate from the identities of their shareholders. In other words, they are effectively "superhuman" entities rather than merely the sum of the people that make up their ownership. Companies arose as a means for groups of individuals to pool some resources to achieve a common and usually specific end. These people "chartered" a Company with the charter defining the specific obligations and purposes of the collective enterprise.

Such companies could not "own" anything themselves, holdings were jointly and severally owned by the members and obligations devolved directly to the membership. Lloyds of London is such a Company, with its Names required to be liable for any shortfall in its underwritings.

Modern public corporations are a different kettle of fish with little obligation to anything but maximising profit year-on-year. The massive advantage of being long-lived is wasted by short-term self-interested management in many cases, with Governments often expected to pick up the tab when the Corporation doesn't have the resources to meet its obligations.

It's pie-in-the-sky, but it would be very nice to see such large Corporations forcibly broken up and Companies returned to the Private sphere alone. I'd have no problem with a group of private firms coming together for a specific purpose (say mining a particular deposit, or financing a particular project), but limited by law to a brief existence of (say) 40 years, or about half a human lifetime. That way, they can't accumulate the massively disproportionate power and influence that being effectively immortal allows.

Yabby:"disposable incomes for low and middle income earners
actually increased dramatically between 2000 and 2010 in real terms. "

Yabby, that's not down to wage increases, it's quite simply down to redistributive taxation and welfare. As I've said before, spending on welfare and transfers increased from 20% of GDP to over 35% since Keating's "recession we had to have".

Net wealth per capita peaked in 2008, according to the ABS.

Anti,

All powerful companies bother me too, especially when their influence affects good government. Maybe we just need stronger government that does not buckle at the knees whenever these companies put the pressure on.

Cannot see that happening though. Moral cowardice does appear to be a necessary qualification for a politician these days. Maybe it always was but I never noticed.

There does not appear to be any solution on the horizon. I shall return to pastimes such as scratching the dawgs ears and contemplating my navel and the lint therein.

Less harmful to ones person as compared to getting fretty about the world as it be.

Take it easy.

SD

Sorry yabby, I should have said "net disposable income per capita" peaked in 2008/9.

Shaggy, big corporations are more powerful than many governments and they are not afraid to use that power. It's a shift in power realtionships that is still to be fully realised, I think.

Time did a study a few years ago into corporate inducements from Governments, including some that they themselves had received. Their conclusion was that none of them were either required as inducements or of net benefit to the populace within the Government area concerned.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,989508,00.html

Here's the story refered to in the one linked to above.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,989509,00.html

Ta Anti.

Will read it later on today.

SD

My defense of trade unions side tracked me.
I had intended a wider path.
PENALTY RATES I will get more pain than gain out of this.
But driven by an understanding the future in IR even if conservatives win two or even three terms is EBA negotiation.
Penalty rates exist to as I have said put fences around the hours worked.
And to reward those, not every worker will, who put in the extra hours.
Out come needed in My view before trade off?
Set days and hours that can be worked under proposed system.
Needed because some workplaces over night would want to transform to 3 shift 7 days work.
2 forms of employment.
those who will work over time those who will not.
Potentual trade off follows.
First reason for trade off,need to keep jobs in this country decrease CASUALS IN THE WORKPLACE.
Proposal
a look at annual amount of over time worked in that workplace.
Value of it given say 100 points being one dollar.
Boss receives as his dividend 20 percent cut in total over time bill.
Workers get flat rate all hours, but.
All extra hours worked bring 80, of what they once did.
half credited to employees annual leave.
Half paid as extra superannuation.
Long term that super contribution makes up for any workers loss plus.
Boss while still costing more saves on his past annual wage costs.

I am not asking for a race to the bottom.
Grit your teeth and scream union thuggery.
But we must too remember some bosses would take this and turn it to junk.
Superannuation is a worry we far too many off us,refuse to truly manage our personal super.
Some bosses sell our super! to funds that reward them! trips holidays ! our money!
Some schemes exist, truth, that ask you to pay ALL YOUR OWN CONTRIBUTIONS TO LEAVE EARLY!
So yes super but get the grubs out of the system they exist, get your super in one fund now not two or three.
Workers from the first days of superannuation have taken pay cuts for extra payments in to super.
This could be trade off country but always keep it honest and safe.
Now what about the best workers,the ones who came for the money?
They never will except my scheme and they will always find a boss who will pay more than average for them.
So in truth no single plan will work for every job.

Sheesh Belly, methinks you should go back to work, you clearly
miss your old job :)

Glad to hear you think yabby, some times
A thousand ideas ten times that exist.
productivity in the workplace is always going to matter.
How about this.
All overtime within usual patterns,paid single time
In exchange for 2 extra weeks annual leave and super paid at 16%
Remember, do not forget, some work places work no over time some work 60 or 70 hour weeks.

Oh Belly, I have far better ideas then any union man.

Flat rate, all included for each hour worked, call
them a contractor. Everyone is happy.

But I know that you union blokes like to think that
you are needed :)

Qantas, benchmark salaries and conditions with
other global airlines. Let employees share a fixed
share of the profits, if the company makes money.

Workers interests need to be aligned with shareholders
interests, so that its a win-win. Alot of your unions
are still all about them and us. It will send more
Australian companies to the wall. All Australians
will lose. All very sad really, they need yet more
pain to learn. So be it.

These are SOME of the implications of your red neck proposal.
Firms compel workers to work 7 day weeks and long shifts.
Weekends/Social/family life ends.
End of reward for better in work place ends, level playing Field equals death of effort same result as Socialism.
Tell you what , bring in as China has a tax free zone, they make or Iphones using slaves who actually die or are crippled at work.
In the end, what is it humanity needs/wants.
More equality, a better life for as many as possible.
Or is profit worth turning workers to slaves.
Yes yabby us unionists do want to look like we are doing something bloke protecting workers from bosses like you is a start.
Have grin on my face ok?

Sorry Anti , I stand corrected, of course the contamination of Gladstone Harbour is well documented even in the Qld press. But my jibe was unnecessary, apologies to Qlders.

I was was reacting due an experience in my life where my family was poisoned by pesticides and we all broke out in boils. Boils are the bodies reaction too poisoning incidentally, although the medical profession did not recognise that at the time.

The specific information regarding the nature of the condition associated with the Gladstone environment and how people were effected found in the Age, was more informative, more of an example of reporting I believe. More based in facts than the Courier Mail article. Too me it read like a hodgepodge of theorems, conjecture, postulating and facts unclear, as to the nature of the complaint in Gladstone, as opposed to the facts of the matter. The boils, I don't believe were mentioned by the Courier Mail, nor the number of people effected.

It's great too see us now drilling down on the issue of Corporate Power at last, and I support your views on Corporations Anti, and I think Belly"s policy suggestions good idea's worth consideration. As for Yabby's flat earth policy, (lol).

Good point about middle class welfare Anti, you say it better than I. It's more the taxpayer funding their own pay rises instead of business being required to do it. A real job is where your living standards don't go backward while you work. Of course your prepared to be more productive for your employer if he is protecting your living standards by offering certainty and rises at least commensurate with the rate of inflation. You can even be loyal.

Although I feel bound too point out that the weight of necessary lower income assistance was provided by Keating and the bulk of middle class and upper income welfare was provided by Howard, Anti. This clearly separates these two leaders, despite the blurring your timeline imply's, when you say "since Keating's so called recession we had too have".

Actually Belly, these days I think of you every Sunday, when I
pick up my Sunday newspaper. The place is a small country store,
where women who wanted some extra money, worked when they felt like it
and there was work. Thats all gone now for them. The owner could
not justify the double time and a half or whatever, he now does
it himself.

Those women have no choice in the matter, union thugs have decided
it for them.

I know plenty of blokes who prefer to work as contractors. Its one
of the reasons why union membership is so dismal. They don't
want you lol, even though that would break your heart.

But of course now labor is in power, you are going to force the
union stuff down peoples throats, like it or not.

I remember the days when the AWU tried to deny shearers from earning
more money, by denying them the use of wide combs. WA led the
way of course and nearly all shearers told the union to get stuffed.
Deary deary me :)

Well I did try.
Not to prop up the dark past of some Unions.
Not to lay all the blame on one side.
I have failed.
My thread feeds a lack of understanding and concern, for the lowest paid in our community.
Yabby throws that well worn brick, at my movement, fore very perceived sin, he imagines is theirs.
Those Lady's, the new laws they work under, this is the very guts of the matter!, work under laws not put in place! at any stage! by unions.
Post work choices, past John Howard's mistaken belief AUSTRALIAN WORKERS did not matter.
These laws tried to introduce a level playing Field Australia wide.
Penalty rates, may not have infiltrated the back waters of West Australia, but most of the country's had always paid such workers these rates

Pause, look at another side ,of our wonderful truck stop bosses,saints that they are NOT!
Those who will work for cash on the side are activly hunted, others mostly not employed.
Social security receivers are first, in return for using false names, but understanding any future claims lead to reporting them, they work cheap.
UNION THUGS?
A thread long ago, informed of young women, hand picked single mums.
Paid first seven dollars an hour,on weekends cash same system.
After a while? five dollars and out of date stock!
UNION THUGS?

In my lifetime I have seen a whole new industry born.
If I could find the words to fully describe it, you may well see a small map of modern day IR.
I worked for the DMR /soon to become RTA in NSW.
Traffic Control, in my time in the NSW DMR then renamed RTA the men and women holding those signs changed.
It was us,employed workers,the good and the bad who held those bats.
It could be and was used as punishment,I often felt for being unionist.
My team got the first all new well trained well presented contract team.
Nice looking ,friendly young women.
They got less pay no penalty's and,as casuals no work if they asked why.
I began a war, to see them paid , as an employed RTA AWU Union delegate.
I employed as an official of my union, tasked with recruiting and fixing this new industry.
With help,me and another recruited two thirds of that group, every such group.
Opposing us?
EX RTA Engineers who owned whole contracts, working for? RTA.
Ex Militant trade union officials.
An Ethnic group from Queensland who threatened the life of both workers and me.
It was early days workers worked under a discription of security Gard's! insurance was cheaper, wage slower.
We are talking about thousands of workers.
Superannuation, then you could/they did! get away with not paying it.
Casuals all, doors closed over night,no pay,after a while we got some back.
In time it was backed by law.
REMEMBER many of those folk, single mums working under false names, just to eat, did not understand they would never see the pay, super, even pay on pay day.
Call me a fool insult the person, but I can never ever forget one of hundreds,a young lost mum, not very bright not even very right.
Who was owed for 53 hours work,and never received it, I gave her more than I should, more than I could,I never became a unionist for personal gain.
The best do not.

In time, I became yabbys UNION THUG! and loved it! miss it!
A day near the week end would start with a phone call,from a worker in this industry.
My pay is not in the bank.
Twenty more forty or even eighty.
Quick visit and finding locked doors and a report all the signs and such, the oil the industry runs on went in a moon light flit around 2 am.
Some tin shed,maybe not far away a stencil was being used to change the company's name, new staff,new name same boss.
I found my companion,never forgave him, seemed to have made a few bob,was of little help to me.
In time the great man that replaced him,me both before he came and after,closed shed doors first.
After finding CONTRACTORS TO THE RTA owed workers figures in the hundreds of thousands.
WARNING! still in NSW those giving multi million dollars contracts receive gifts as rewards, some times Penny's,contracts are given to CRIMINALS.
So my thread aired concerns but I see no point in continuing, stunning! that based on the news papers the fish and chips came in UNION THUGS is the answer.

thinker2, a very graceful apology, although unnecessary. It's easy to miss things especially when, as you point out, predispositions exist.

thinker2:"It's more the taxpayer funding their own pay rises instead of business being required to do it. A real job is where your living standards don't go backward while you work."

Yes, this is where Corporates have taken advantage of the social justice system to reduce their costs and hence drive up multi-factor productivity. The other factor masking the flatline in earnings has been that consumer goods have been flooded onto the market as an overflow from China's great jump into the 20th century, which is currently being followed by their rush into the 21st.

Food, fuel and housing have all massively increased in cost over that time, but cars, TVs, computers and clothing have all dropped. Shame we can't eat TVs. I suppose we could live in our cars...

thinker2:"the bulk of middle class and upper income welfare was provided by Howard"

Oh, I competely agree. Howard was a complete dud as a PM and as a Treasurer when he had that gig. The Liberal Party has a lot to be ashamed of in their craven refusal to depose him when they could. Costello forever stands condemned as lacking the guts to take him on. If he hadn't been lucky enough to have Gillard come along so soon after he got booted out he'd be recalled as Australia's worst ever.

However, he did do two positive things: the gun laws and the reforms to the Family Law.

belly, I'm not sure if I like your proposal for penalty rates or not, because I'm not sure whether the numbers stack up. Moreover, I'm not sure that Australia any longer has a 5 day working week except in certain fields. Is it really necessary to be paid extra to work on certain days or times? I worked shifts for some time in my youth and I came to actually prefer to work at night when there were fewer distractions.

Ah Belly, but once again, you see all this from your limited
perception, failing to stand back and see the more objective picture.
I have no doubt that you did lots of good, as a caring and
compassionate union man. But the world is not your black and
white and your one swallow does not make a summer.

I've told you before, WA is the innovative, go ahead state for
good reasons. WA does not believe in wise men from the East, more
like Eastern snakeoil salesmen who hold us back.

I am sure that one or two exist somewhere, but for instance I have
never met a single WA shearer who cared about the AWU. The wide
comb story told it all. WA just went ahead and did what was right.
WA workers largely have attitude and they will do what they see
fit, not what some union man from the East thinks.

I met a women whom I have known for a time, just the other day.
Petite, a mom, she needs some money. So she now does contract
cleaning, fly in fly out, 45 bucks an hour! No need for union
officials to tell her what to do. Good on her, typical West
Australian.

So lets stand back and look at the perception of unions in the
public arena right now. Tens of thousands of passengers stuffed
around by unions, major resource projects held up by unions,
union leaders seemingly living it up on the union credit card,
union leader telling people not to support workers company, unions
throwing their weight around building sites, union leaders throwing
their weight around politics, at the forefront of toppling a PM.

Union thuggery is clearly a tag that fits.

Anti,you from my background construction know as I do 5 day week is as unlikely in that trade as me convincing yabby unions are not all evil.
I have not just ideas but an understanding change is coming and needed in IR.
If I continue posting here it would be only endless negative talk about bad bosses.
To counter yabby limited view that I do not under stand what I am saying.
SORRY YABBY you have no understanding at all!
I wanted to air some truths, leaving changes nothing, for every idiot, on both sides, two honest negotiators, on both sides look for answers.
My childhood, working for farmers while not a teen saw me learn most bosses care about those who work for them.
And yabby would not believe it, I took battling firms in to offices like the one you anti sit in, to meet people like you.
Got them contracts that kick started them, need a bridge maker? solid honest has form up to 5 million contracts finished on time?
My kick back? his workers got fair pay and work.
Do we understand? that action, getting the job, from a bad boss, giving it to a good one, bad boss meant over budget over time, good boss on time on budget, was of use to ? EVERY ONE!
Have fun, but I can no longer contribute to feeding the view a TRADE UNIONIST IS A THUG, even un Australian.
No offense taken yabby but no way I would work for you.

*No offense taken yabby but no way I would work for you.*

Well of course not Belly, for of course you live over there
in an industrial backwater, whilst I live over here in Australia's
leading State, which is keeping the rest of the country afloat.

Plenty of Australians read the papers, watch tv, they can see
the union thuggery that is going on right now.
Just in today's paper, they quote senior Qantas pilots earning
536'000$ per year. The poor downtrodden fellows.

Belly, I see the big picture, you see your little picture of your
life, your activities. I think you have a very kind heart. So
kind in fact, that you probably help the little old lady across
the street, even if she does not want to go there :)

Belly I can't agree with you on penalty rates. I can't imagine why we had to go to extended shopping hours, but we did, so now we have very few in traditional 9 to 5 jobs. It is really only office workers, & not even some of those.

If someone chooses to be a cop, or a hospitality worker, or a bus driver, they know what is going to be required, & one shift should be like any other. That said, I do agree with a special rate for those cursed with rolling shifts, which are so hard to manage.

I ran tourist boats. That is mostly a 7 day, 12 hours job. Sometime it is more. Some in the industry paid a flat daily rate, regardless of length of day, or day of week. Some paid by award, as we did.

None of the staff ever wanted the weekend off. When you spend 12 hours a day trapped on a boat, even in a beautiful place, you can't slip out to buy something at lunch time. You need your time off, when shops are open. As these shops are often a hundred or more kilometers away, that requires week days.

I required a number of crews to man the boats. I could never see why one crew should earn more for 28 hours, [Friday night, Saturday & Sunday], than another crew earned for 55 hours, 7 Am to 6 Pm, Monday to Friday. The crews of other operators, who received the same pay regardless of day, all wanted week days off. If everyone preferred to work the weekend, why should it attract a premium pay level?

That a nurse earns more for 2 shifts, [Saturday & Sunday night shifts] than her colleague does for a weeks work is just ridiculous. Some of these weekend only warriors have so little contact with more senior medical staff, that patient care is suffering.

Thanks Hasbeen and you too yabby, in yabby case it is you, not me that can not see the big picture.
This is it for me,I came hoping for understanding.
That a race to the bottom, reducing the living standards of only some, so firms could prosper.
And that 1 in 5 are unionists, change is some times needed.
In attitudes on both sides.
Questions needed asking, what does Australia, over all want , rich and poor want for others/them selves.
Is there any point in every thing being judged on what other country's pay/ how they live.
Is it ok to grasp the positives in free trade but demand union/workers suffer to propped things we can not save.
Those unionist/workers have fought and died for this country.
Yet yabby you barely except they are Australians in your words.
While grateful, NATION WIDE more good than bad talk to find answers.
I have no intention of continuing to see only my side blamed, have fun, see you in other threads

Belly, I like to pay people as much as they can earn for the company. I know it can't work in very large companies, although it may work in divisions of them.

I always had a desired turnover figure on the notice board, & a percentage figure. These were achievable figures, not daydreams. The idea was that when the figure had been achieved for 3 consecutive months, all existing staff would get the percentage as a raise. I was included in this.

In the best year everyone who had been there all year had received a 20% pay increase.

This gave a great improvement in cooperation between office, factory & warehousing, as all pulled together. When I had taken over that company it had a dreadful "upstairs" "downstairs" mentality.

Very few ever left, other than any lazy new staff. The staff had a stake in the company being efficient, & they got rid of the less helpful very quickly.

We seldom had sick days. The system was just advise if you had a doctors appointment, or a sick kid, & take the time necessary. Provided the one involved could keep their work up to date, no record of this time was kept. It was only in a major problem that any of them used their sick leave.

This tended to give a happy workplace, but also happy share holders. The staff had a few dollars extra in their pocket, & they did their jobs so well, that they made more money for the company in the process.

I think that sounds like a workplace in which I would be happy making a contribution Hasbeen. I also agree that a company can only pay relative to the income produced by an employee for that relationship to be sustainable or to continue to be successful. I believe this is obvious.

A workplace that provided a 20 % pay increase to all in a year through collective effort, would abound in loyalty and voluntary productivity increases for an employer. I believe this is also obvious.

People are all different of course, and function best at their own level.

Leadership must do the job of providing a market for the products, and employee's concentrate on producing/selling the product or providing the service, in simplistic terms. The whole thing is a juggling act at best for those carrying the responsibility of leadership to get the thing right. Matching people and jobs, the hardest task ultimately for employers.

Remuneration, is obviously commensurate with the level at which an individual functions.
But along with ambition/power/remuneration comes responsibility.

On the other hand a working person aspires to be good at what they do in exchange for reward, particularly security and remuneration that preserves their living standards.

Again in simplistic terms the employer is responsible for providing the jobs and the employee's are responsible for doing them well. If an employer or more accurately a leadership figure in business is capable and willing of his/her responsibility, only then is he/she also worthy of the power/remuneration etc that leadership endows. Only then does capitalism actually work as a social instrument, in my opinion.

My main point about the situation here and now, is that we find ourselves in a confrontational industrial environment. The regulatory imbalance we see now, distorts our viewpoint of best practice in our industrial relationships. Qantas a fine example of this imbalance, with the company playing dirty and the union basically nobbled by its response options. The employee's have zero input into the decision making regarding the future of that business, with the management living in a tower mentality.

cont..

Unfortunately this matter will not be resolved unless the Gov't intervenes on behalf of the passengers as consumers in the end, because Qantas management can hold out forever without scrutiny, endlessly frustrating their employee's with a lack of commitment to their future, from their masters.

I promised my contributions had stopped, have contributed to this subject in another thread.
But here are my views.
Both sides are out of control.
The union leader who asked for sabotage is an idiot, and his membership will know it.
Both sides MUST GET dispute resolution in place by removing current leadership on both sides, not sacking just use others.
Look be honest! both sides are acting foolish, if we want to be honest.
I would LOVE the job of resolving this.
But think this week ends it! I think they will fall in to one another's arms.
So lets talk basics.
Both came to the table with needs and wishes.
Both used the media,and ANYTHING they could to pressure the other side
Both ,ALWAYS HAVE HAD A FALL BACK position.
MISS USE OF MEDIA, on both sides has blinded both to impacts.
That spokes woman!
Warrior princess? foolish, no less so than the idiot union leader.
She uses the media to taunt her opponents in to becoming hard to crack EVEN IF THEY WANT TO.
Out come full removal all threats all strike action ,will stand a result and agreement is close issue should never have gone this long
QUANTAS will achieve much more than unions but each warmly cuddles the other.

I don't think reasoned negotiation is possible now Belly. The companies/employers are over endowed with power, and the individual employee/consumer endowed with little or none. Even when those employee's endeavour to to negotiate, there is no legal or commercial reason for the company (in this case Qantas), to negotiate properly, fairly or actually, all they really have to do is exhaust negotiations and frustrate their staff until the dead end, which of course is their goal in the dispute in the first place. Their only strategy is to conduct a campaign to convince the passengers that they should blame the union for their inconvenience, whilst at the the same time exacerbating those inconveniences with lockouts etc and as you say Belly "a warrior princess (spin doctor) spokesperson".

The Union's only available strategy to counter this, is to call off strikes and turn up for work only to be locked out anyway, and have the passengers told to blame the union for the disruption or delays to their flights. You can't negotiate Belly when one side holds all the cards. You have too have your own chips to be in the game.

This is the post Howard industrial world Belly , confrontation is enshrined in law, commercial stealth is encouraged, the priority's of business now all but etched in our thought processes as paramount above all.

An example Belly, "if a company went bust prior too the Howard Era", their first obligation would have been the payment of wages owed to their employees.

In the post Howard era, if a company goes bust," it's first obligation is too it's creditors. This is determined by banks, auditors, receivers etc. The employee's today get to pick over the bones of what's left after all the commercial interests have taken their whack.

If a Union wanted to negotiate the rights of the employees in this situation regarded the slice of the bones, they are rendered irrelevant, theres nothing to negotiate, their members have no rights Belly.

thinker 2 all nearly all true.
But it was mid term, his last term Howard started to see workers paid after bankruptcy.
Labor installed it as law.
Read the history of the National textiles event, Howard's brother went broke or nearly.
Well both sides have been too confrontational.
Bur far from new, its Bob Hawk time.
Unions now can not win.
Quantas has lost much more than it planned.
Remove the goose and his warrior princess now, put them out of play.
Then sit down and talk.
This will take place.
Government, by now,will have behind the scenes made it clear it must end.
It will be over soon.

Oh the poor unions lol.

Look, if the engineers, pilots and twu want to manage the
company themselves and pay themselves whatever they want,
they can simply buy it and do as they please.

Based on the Qantas market cap and number of employees,
that would work out to a bit over 100 thousand per employee,
well within the capacity of their super fund savings.

Go on, you poor downtrodden unions, show us how to run
an airline, I challenge you!

Unions have lost this fight.
Went too far,lead by the foolish.
Opposed by fools too.
No one side produced a clean fight.
It is over now.
But knowing and understanding dispute resolution is about both sides.
Who would want the task of sitting opposite yabby to resolve an issue.
We watched this fight in a mirror.
One of those funny ones in an amusement park.
Unions came in painted as bad buggers in black hats.
Actually may live just up the road from you.
But we know they are nasty buggers all of them.
Yabby told us.
OH by the way! those QUANTAS planes,the ones nearly fell out of the sky?
any reason to ask why?
NAH nothing wrong here folks move on.

Belly, ask yourself why an airline might choose to offshore maintenance. more, ask yourself why corners may have been cut. Here's a clue: check the balance sheet and check the pay rates of the employees. Ask yourself which of the cost factors would be the hardest to reduce, given the aggressively militant union environment that Qantas oerates in.

I'll leave the rest to you.

Squeers has put a view about unions in another thread to me.
It had always been My intention to talk about unions are they are today.
As I think they will be.
And yes as I think they MUST BE.
Last first, cut ties with the ALP, no male cow dung! Labor cuts its ties with us, we infect Labor[ WHO WE NEED IN POWER] by installing both Gems, no problem there and rubbish from our movement.
We make no difference to our members voting intentions, by failing to tell the party the truth.
We do see would be members not come on board.
I am sick, Australian Workers are sick, of power generated by unions being used to let one person use the power of many to do things like dump Rudd but prop up this failure we put in his place.
Future unions must fix membership fees cut over heads have less unions less Branch's more service.
Using union funds to prop up Labor?
I donated every year much more but we must sell our product,union members interests to the highest bidder,we, daily get in to disputes surely within Conservatives we can find some one, not the bike riding dill, who will listen.
Politics/religion/unionism, should at times march together but bed down?
No.