Great sermon, Woot!
But alas like most sermons the rhetoric's a dead give-away--though I did find the sad faces pathetic. No evidence and precious little reliance on argument or "reason", ergo the rhetoric, yet what wonderful surmise!. But beneath it just another straw man : (

<You look at the riddle and appear to want to close your eyes and cover your ears, whilst putting down those that investigate it, take it all on board and adventure into it's depths. You see no enjoyment in it, no sense of wonder and delight. To you it seems to be that it is a cold, harsh thing>

To quote Prufrock, "That is not what I meant at all; That is not it, at all". It's just what you've conjured-up, and I'm blowed if I know how you got that from what I said (you must be a modernist?)?
..Ah, but "reason" is a wonderful thing! isn't it?

I'll stand toe to toe with anyone here on my appreciation of science; I've enjoyed dozens of books and hundreds of essays on a raft of the sciences and been captivated by them.
<I don't see why you think as you do of it. That you cannot see beauty in understanding>
How can you know "what" I think of it--based on my scribblings that you've been conditioned to conjure meaning from?
But you give me hope! What is this "beauty in the understanding" you speak of that I cannot see? Do tell!

OUG its okay to kill as many as you like in the name of God but just don't murder them. You justify the slaughter of millions of innocent people by reference to your book of dribble Exodus 20-13 "You shall not murder." King James version of the book of dribble, it doesn't say anything about killing OUG they are still dead! But you Christians can sleep easy at night knowing no one is getting murdered in the name of god, Tell that to the Afghan father who's 4 year old child was killed by US troops last week. But then again the boy wasn't Christian was he a Western White Christian child's life is so much more valuable than some child in Afghanistan.

Squeers, it is only you that are claiming there is a reliance on reason, not me. I also celebrate birthdays, it does not mean I think only of birthdays.

You refer to those that put science forward as our best method of working out truth, as to 'witlessly try to take warmth from its cold light,' .. the association being dank and dismal. If I took you incorrectly I apologise but please explain yourself without such analogies then so that your diatribe is better understood as more than one sided, without the reliance on straw men simply because people wish to celebrate reason.

How do you describe the beauty in something to the person that cannot see it? I am not skilled enough to recognise the path in that regard, I am sorry, and yes sad if that is your question :(

"while simultaneously denying and denigrating those other capacities of the mind (sorry, brain; the mind doesn't exist either does it?)"

Denying what? I am denying the fact I believe in a god or gods, that I lack the belief of people here that call for me to provide evidence of the start of the universe and if I cannot, they claim their magic man wins out by default. Of course such a position is worth of denigration.

Of course the mind exists, as a result of the construct and reliant on it as any brain damage can show.

I am not denying belief, I am putting it in it's place as simply a belief. I have many, one of which is that St Kilda is the best football team. Argue and denigrate away, we all have the right to be offended.

Serge Molchanoff has just come back from Russia and has an amazing story of how God used him in youth camps and churches...After 70 years of preaching 'there is no God' it is amazing how people have a hunger for God in Russia!

paul...your at least a thinker
[regardless of what other lables you place upon yourself]

unlike mr woot who is such a hoot
here is his latest ;joke'[no doudt said in full seriousness]

""you cannot see beauty in understanding.""

he addressed that at squeers
one of the more intelectual enlightend athiest[like yourself]
heck if there were more like you and squeers i might even convert

but to douse that one quickly
sadly most i have met are like woot and david
[just about as disapointing
as the few believers..who,..live by creed rather than reason]

anyhow to reply your 'point'
""OUG its okay to kill as many
as you like in the name of God..but just don't murder them.""

think my fellow thinker
god SUSTAINS all live to live
how pleasing is death to the lifeGIVER?

not in the least
god sustains life...living..logic
death..or nonsense..offends the spirit..of good

the difference between accidental death
and deliberate intent..to murder

the difference..to kill by nessisity..[say for food/survival]
or to kill for some other excuse is huge

to explain it somewhat more clear
see a seed of wheat/corn...[heck any seed]
has the possability and probability..to live
[if we hadnt murded it for our daily bread...

[i guess thats why holy people
pray over their food....that even
if 'only' a vegatable..DIED*..so we can live

""You justify the slaughter of millions of innocent people""

i do not justify ANY murder
in fact walk carefully..to try not to mindlessly kill

from you
who has..*a mind..this hurts..

[i would expect such absurdity
from [mw]..moot woot or moot david]..

but you?

continues

anyhow this topic wearies me

continue

""by reference to your book of dribble Exodus 20-13
"You shall not murder.""

see you check info
that indicates you are able to dicern/think
unlike david and moot

""it doesn't say anything
about killing OUG they are still dead!""

they are energy
their inherant identity..lives on
i know this is hard for many non believers to grasp
but its hard science fact..i tried to explain..i really tried

""But you Christians""

im not a christian..not a muslim..
not a jew/buddist nor of ANY CREED

i KNOW god is real[energy]
i know the afterlife is real

and thats it

i can sleep easy at night
knowing no one is getting murdered
by me or my words or my causation

i live by the grace of god,
as do we all..but i am prepared to GIVE BACK to god
the root of all that good true and holy[life/light/logic/love]

""the Afghan father who's 4 year old child was killed""
is now with the true life giver[to wit not the fathers sperm
but the breath of the holy father who breathed life into his fathers sperm...long long ago

the child
is where it can not be hurt
ever again

unless it *choses
to hurt others first*

[by the law of freewill]
only then can satan claim his own

johan
nine